Topic: Current Default Trust Network (Read 2306 times)

Considering my little involvement in the german section esp. regarding trades I would probably of no use on level 1. I see your point though, might be worth a different topic to suggest some of the "guys/girls" you have in mind.


AFAIK there was a vote against it and that was that.

I don't know of any particular measurement, and I agree that most people do not create custom lists.  However, I see this as problematic, as leading to a centralized system that can be gamed (see the recent Quickseller drama) due to a central point of failure (to fool everyone, you only need to fool one or two people on the default list).  And it's doubly problematic because there's a feedback loop created where because very few people create custom lists, if you do create a custom list and you're not in default trust 1, then you are simply putting yourself out of the loop.  You're tuning out the feedback from the trusted few.  Of course this might be a good thing to do, but you end up not knowing what the majority of the people are seeing.  For example, I have a custom trust list, but I keep having to go back to the trust page to put it back to "default/depth=2" in order to "read the news" about what the vast majority are seeing.  I think this feedback loop is a shame because it essentially nullifies all of the nice features the trust system has for creating a robust, decentralized network.

I guess I see your question about how to promote the feedback of some particulare users in your subforum as a great opportunity to try to break out of that feedback loop.  If you put a sticky at the top of your subforum that says "ACHTUNG: Bitte prüfen Sie Ihre Vertrauenseinstellungen"  ["ATTENTION: please consider your trust settings"<- from google translate, I don't know if it's a good translation ] and within that thread you have people discussing the best German-language posters to add to your trust list in order to see the high-quality ratings they provide as "trusted", then this might lead to people starting to take full advantage of the capabilities of the trust-system software, and perhaps make the overall trust system more robust as a consequence.  Who knows, if you do this for your subforum and it's helpful, perhaps other subfora will follow suit.  If all of the local subfora have these kinds of stickies and have their users making their own trust lists, perhaps Theymos will consider again whether something like this should be done for the global forum.  It's just an idea, anyway.


Here are some links to those discussions (including the one where Theymos presented an alternative to default trust):

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/trim-or-eliminate-default-trust-1031791
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/replacing-defaulttrust-914641
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--1163292

I think what happened to that theymos idea is that it lost out in a poll that was at the end of that thread.  To be honest, I think that particular idea did have a few flaws that might have been problematic, but I really like the idea of confronting newbies with information about the trust system (in my opinion, newbies should also be simply fine with "opting out"---leaving their trust settings blank and seeing no feedback as "trusted" until they take the time to make a trust list).

I remember your stance on encouraging private trust lists.
As much as I would love to see people creating their own, I doubt that many people, especially newbs, actually do this.
Is there some statistic on that somewhere?

BTW, I remember theymos suggesting something like a default "create your own trust" page where he suggested a list of 100(?) users to incorporate into your first one. Anyone know what's become of that?

Needed probably not. Useful, I think so. I can think of a number of guys/girls from the local german community who are much better scam-spotters than I am.
If those people tend to not post in English, they will most likely go unnoticed by DT level 1, which will render their valuable ratings almost useless.
Of course, the same goes for any non-English sub-forum.

I'm always trying to set my perspective "right" by assuming the point of view of a complete newb.
He comes to the bitcointalk forum and sees some people flagged green, others red, most not flagged at all.
It's almost a sure thing that he will tend to trust green people and distrust red people.
Now imagine a new german user. How many useful trust ratings will influence his perception of the other members of the german community?
I believe it's too few to have any real meaning.

While we're at it, I suggest shorena to be promoted to DT level 1 as well
Not phantastisch, though, I don't like mods on DT

Of course the other solution is to encourage users of the german subforum to build their own trust networks.  Perhaps you put a sticky that says, "take full advantage of what the trust system can offer: add some german guys to your trust list".  In general, I think people should be managing their own trust lists, so much drama would go away if there weren't some central list of blessed people to try to get loved by.  I know I've expressed this kind of opinion before, but I think it might be relevant here too.

I see, I dont think its needed though. The ratings from us have the same impact. Yes we cant put someone that is only active in the german section onto the DT list, but do we need to?

Note: replace german for any other section with a similar size, I still thinks its true.

Anyone from my trust list not on DT I would nominate

theymos
dooglus
JWU42
Kluge
haploid23
Tomatocage
SaltySpitoon
BadBear
LouReed
squall1066
dbanga85
KWH
escrow.ms
xetsr
ghibly79
monbux
Smack That Ace

We're all just depth 2. I thought of promoting someone to level 1.
My reasoning is that right now, our trust doesn't propagate, so there's no way we can establish our own "local" trust network.

Lass das ma nich die Antifa sehen.[1]


Germans I know that are on DT:

- shorena
- phantastisch (german mod)
- qwk


Do we need more? We might need a section like scam accusations. The approach to trust ratings seems also different in the german section. You probably know about the discussions when negative trust is left to quickly towards someone active in the german section, e.g. if an account was hacked.

@racism: It cant be racist comment, because

#1 the german section is language based which has nothing to do with race (if such a thing even exists) - humans from all races and countries can speak german (or learn to) and are welcome it that section.
#2 even if the section would be limited to those living in germany, the country has inhabitants of other races (if such a thing even exists)
#3 german is no race (if such a thing even exists) the races would be caucasian or aryan and would include almost all european countries.

I do however agree that each language section should have at least a few people to represent that section on the default trust network. The question is how to make sure that the power given is not abused if the language is not spoken. On the other hand moderation would be susceptible to the same issues and its (to my knowledge) working fine.


[1] Translation for our international friends: Do not get caught by the Antifa.

The spanish portion of the community is somewhat represented by DT via  dserrano5. It seems that in general, the reputation system in other local communities works somewhat differently then DT.

You are right that many other (not just the German) local boards should be better represented in DT.

He wants a better Forum...A German Forum!

I vote for Vod for DT depth 1
and monbux for DT depth 2

and Neotox for DT depth 2
just joking, Vod and monbux deserve this

No, I'm not going to edit any of my posts to cover the tracks of my fanatic german racism.

I meant to say it would be useful for the members of the non-english sub-forums of bitcointalk if they were represented in DefaultTrust.
That might help in spotting scammers that only do their scammy magic in languages other than English.

If someone seriously misunderstands that as racism, so be it. I beg to differ

How the heck is saying "best interest of the forum" his opinion? I figure he is speaking for all of us forum members, and I too dont approve of it.

That is not racist, it is his opinion. I think he is being nationalistic with this post. QWK, it would be better if you edit/remove this post to avoid any trouble with this.

Edit: i have not said that I approve this kind of posts!

BWC

Hoy thats racist again, who says non-american or non-german can't make good decisions.

I believe it's in the best interest of the forum to have members of (possibly all) non-english communities in DT.
And Germany's the most important community after all

Why not , I think that is the whole point of this thread, to include people who should be added and to remove people who should be removed.
Thats racist 

Apparently, no one. Which more or less disqualifies him. I'll try to teach him
But for the moment, he leaves a lot of trust ratings and is generally considered trustworthy.
Once he learns to use the trust list, he'll be perfect

I agree on blazedout419.
Can't really comment on Vod.
About SebastianJu, it's about time we get some member of the german community in DefaultTrust, we got our own scammers and "nice guys" over there.
If anyone, it's probably SebastianJu who qualifies for the job of GermanTrust

I think the default list is pretty good at the moment.  There may be 1 or 2 that aren't on the forums as often as they used to be, but on the whole it is a very trusted list.  There are also some backup guys who would do well taking any one of their positions if the need arises.

I would probably be against expanding the list any right now.  It seems to work pretty well as is, and anyone who generally says otherwise is crying about something or other.  I like having a select group as backups, that way if anything ever happens to the main guys there are others to take their place and keep the trust going.

Yeas of course I support HIM too.. I mean who dosent abuses with Power he has ?? VOD dosent .
--> https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/want-to-get-your-negative-trust-removed-887515

I will vouch for Vod too. Possibly one of the most trusted members on this whole forum, certainly from an outsider looking in.

But he definitely deserves a higher and better position on the forum ..
very trusted and kind personality he has got..

I agree

if i get the hierarchical view correct, no one!? but he is on escrow.ms's list.

I'm rendering updated DefaultTrust visualisations at the moment, might help this thread.

There are a number of posters who need to be removed from DT. I won't go any further with this though.

Vod has only DT in his trust list, so would not make sense him be in depth 1

Who is in sebastianju's trust list?

Yes, i think sebastianju should be on depth 1.

I vote VOD and sebastianju to be in level 1
humble and very trusted users..

You (blazedout419) should be added to depth 1.

His positive ratings and endorsements has resulted in multiple $1,000,000 plus losses. Multiple businesses have closed because of negative trust ratings received after their failed to pay a bug bounty. Unsure what was going through theymos head when he put on him DT (the throwaway should be obvioius)

Their personal trust list is the most important part.

I was not referring to you, as i know that you are on DT.


This is exactly what i thought as well. If there is to be some new DT1 members, they should carefully review the ratings they left and also be careful about who they add to trust from that point on.

cheers

Its the thought that counts, he has been an upstanding member of this forum

First thanks for the mentions, but I think most here miss the point of level 1. As Vod said, beeing on level 1 is only beneficial to the community if you have solid people on your personal trust list. The ratings of those on level 1 matter the same as those on level 2, but whats more important is who they bring on the list with them.

Exactly...
Mods are here to moderate and that does not make them trustworthy.

i disagree, their ability to moderate and clean up the forum has no correlation to their ability to detect and tag suspicious users, nor does it mean they should automatically be trusted. take a look at the incident with EAL and the primedice giveaways for example.

Well some people might have motivation for that, but most do not. I am already in the DT2 from multiple people so I have no real motivation. The main goal was a discussion to help improve the list if needed.

What about devthedev?

He has lots of trust and I don't know any dispute involving him, and he is not even in the level 2

I dont know this monbux guy either. But, as an user of bitcointalk++, I can see, he has probably the highest number of -ve feedback, not sure why.

I don't think this is the kind of question that should be opened to everyone.
People will obviously vote for members that have given them +ive, pushing themselves into the DT list ...

I saw monbux wasn't on level 2 DT either a few weeks back and that was a little surprising due to his amount of trust. I haven't traded with him personally so I can't vouch for him being trustworthy, but he appears to have a huge amount of trades under his belt, and it doesn't look anyone has ever had any issues with him.

I vote for Benson.Samuel on DT level 1. I feel all MODs deserve to be in the DT list while except Vod and TC and the admins, I'm not sure about the others being added there.

I think, before any shuffling in DT, following changes are required...

1. One person gaining multiple feedback from the same person needs to be abolished.

2. Any feedback from DT 1 or 2, without a proper reference, needs to be challenged and if the person can not provide proper link of the reference and his feedback, that person needs to be removed from DT 1 or 2.

3. This system needs to be immediately introduced - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/replacing-defaulttrust-914641.

Apart from this, I think, shorena, hilariousandco and DannyHammilton needs to be part of DT 1.

My vote for Vod and shorena.  

Edit: To be promoted.

Personally, I was surprised that monbux wasn't on level 2 DT. He seems like a very trusted member on the forum.

I vote for monbux for being added in the depth2 DT and also devthedev.

Monbux for LVL 2 would be solid...surprised he is not already?
Vod for LVL 1 would be solid also

(blush) Thanks for the vote of confidence!

I would be useless in depth 1 - I wouldn't add anything to depth 2.  I keep my trust list at the default so I can judge overall community trust on members.

well i think monbux should be added, he most be the most trusted person here not on DT
monbux trust summary
i also think vod should be in depth1

With all of the recent drama going on it got my thinking about the DT network and its members. How does everyone feel about the current level 1 members? Overall I think it is pretty decent, but should any of them be removed? Should some newer people be added? Obviously this will probably not change things, but figured it might be interesting!

Current Default Trust lvl 1 members:

theymos - obviously staying since it is his list and if you do not trust him why stay here
HostFat - not really sure how active he is, but probably good
dooglus - trusted guy - not sure I agree with all of his ratings recently, but legit
Maged - Not really sure on how active he is
dserrano5 - seems active and legit
OgNasty - obviously legit one of the most trusted here
Tomatocage - had 1 recent hiccup, but overall very trusted and good for the community
SaltySpitoon - Solid guy and very trusted
DeaDTerra - inactive and has led some questionable ventures
BadBear - obviously a solid member
philipma1957 - great addition to the list overall great guy and helpful
escrow.ms - solid guy and trusted
OldScammerTag - much needed for old scammer accounts

I think the network does work, but no matter what the system it will have issues...

People I think would be solid DT lvl 1 additions:

DannyHamilton - trustworthy and very good poster


People in DT lvl 2 that should be removed?