Topic: Dear Theymos,i have a good idea. (Read 1132 times)

I think this is not necessary, as two or three dt can tag someone who made a very high offense. Not all dt are going to leave dt at same time, so it's very high unlikely a multiple tagged user gets ride of his tag.

The thread does contain some valid point that I would like to counter.

I think trust is very different from distrust.

Voting on trust and distrust is problematic for a number of reasons:

1) A large number of accounts on this forum are due to account farming.
2) Senior accounts can still be bought.

While people might not want a particular person to represent them but that doesn't make their historic tags invalid.
Voting someone off the DT list also undoes all of the good work they have done.

I'd like to see more agreement between DTs on tagging scammers so the worst ones where there is agreement that they are scammers are tagged forever.

When the forum moved from the previous version to the current version this was taken care of with the "oldscammertag" profile.

Perhaps there should be an option where if enough DTs vote someone is a scammer a permanent tag is used. (Reserved for the worst offenders)

My bad
But, hey, it was a "good" post after all, totally worthy of merit

Seconded.

Sweet.

Funny how the OP likely created this thread in order to get merits and is finally getting some one year later.  The account hasn't even been active for months now.  Maybe this thread needs to be locked?  

Edit:
No criticism from me as far as giving him merits--I got fooled as well when I started reading the thread and didn't realize it was from last year until I got about halfway through the first page. 

The population of users getting tagged by DT are probably more than the 1/3 of the population -- too much you might say but just count the alts they do have that will vote in demoting a DT. If you can demote a DT by vote that wouldn't be fair for them for they were not promoted to being DT by vote either.

Thats the never ending nonsense you post.
You posted yourself that you know that many people got wrongly negative tagged by DT members you voted in and which you encouraged to start the mess.
I asked you before and will ask you again what did you due to fix the issue that these legit people got their account crashed ?
It just needs a single look at my account with 158 negative point rating to see the massiv abuse of DT members once somebody raise his voice.
They instantly attack somebody search for anything to justify their negativ rating even if its the biggest crab and you got another account destroyed.
Most DT members are fuckers defending each others and there are only a few DT members and even Moderators trying to help but not in public but instead sending PM's so the other DT members can't see it.
Why are even these DT members and Mods hiding their support for these people ?Do they have to fear negative reprecussion once they voice their real opinion which is diffrent that from these abusiv punks ?Of course they do else they wouldn't hide their support.
I took myself the conclusion out of this garbage.
The main fault is not caused by the punks itself since they basicly protect their influence and benefit on this forum as thats their main income however the main fault is held by theymos who is seeing everything seeing the abuse of these people that he even whistled them back but still he see's no reason to fix defamed accounts without any valid reason.He is the one who is silent and giving permission of that abuse because would he say a clear word that DT members are not allowed to defame/destroy accounts without clear evidence these people wouldn't do it.
So all the abuse on this forum can be lead back to theymos inactivty.
OGNASTY posted that DT members experiment should be given more time that i can lead to something good.Than my question would be what about all the accounts which have been wrongfully defamed by these punks ?
Seriously my account has 158 negativ trust points.I look like the biggest scammer on this board if somebody wouldn't know me from outside of this board.
Now show me who exectly did i scammed ?
Vod the biggest pathetic calling himself eldger defending the real values.Did somebody check his permanent nonsense posts he is making ?You can clearly see his amount of grey cells is not exceeding to much.
Myself i defended members of this board from real scams like Quark back in 2012/13 proofing that majority of coins is being hold by a small group which is creating a pump and dump using sponsored promotion and bribe.
I warned many people on many coins which i got credited later from these people who are now high ranked members on this forum but not participating in bounties since they haven't the need to as early participants.
And now have a look at some DT members who have been proofen to scam people on this board one posting racist comments for signatures income with his alt account and all of them are DT members with a great trust feedback score looking like legit members and myself i who never ever scammed anyone on this board for a dime,who activly warned members about scams so they won't lose money,i'm now looking like the biggest scammer on this board.Why ?Because i bought an account for a friend's service thread so he can add an image to it and where i read the forum rules where it clearly said buying accounts is allowed (there was no warning its discouraged) and in addition even asked a mod if its allowed and got a positiv feeback.
For that action and for denying to accept the negativ rating as fair i'm now being shown as the biggest scammer on board.
Seems very reasonable for me compared with the DT members who have been proofen of scams and racist comments who got a positiv feedback score.Seems like raising your voice against DT members is a way bigger scam than actually to really scam someone or post racist comments for profit with an alt account.
Sorry but your system is not working and never will be if DT members will use it to defend themself and their abusiv actions.

I myself said clearly i won't be activ in this forum anymore till this changes and that i'm not going to support a corrucpt forum.I don't make a dime from this forum so i also won't support it when receiving this massiv abuse from DT members and seeing an admin just watching and not getting activ to stop that abuse and most important make good all the false abuse hundreds of members received.

Bitcointalks Moderator Blazed himself admitted in public that he knows that many people have been tagged wrongfully.
He never asked to remove these false taggs.


There is a reason why these DT members and Mods fear to give any power back to the community as this would result instantly in a revange act for their massiv abuse.

Myself i'm out of this board as i won't support it anymore.I give a fuck if bitcointalks members will get scammed or not.Holding on these punks there is a guarantee they will get scammed .

And to answer Vod's question as this dumb person thinks he proofed anything.I haven't forgatten about you.You are lucky i have a new contract which makes it currently impossible for me to fly for 3 days to canada.
But deferred is not suspended.I asked the lawyer how long you can be hold responsible for it and there is enough time.
And no your assumption that i left that account is wrong.I don't support this forum anymore till all the abuse will be fixed in which you took part too.

I'm out of this board

Dead-thread digger found! 

Just like @qwk, I started from the OP and read all the replies until I reached the reply of @LoyceV without realizing that the thread is a year old. 

Damn, fell for it
That's what you get for just looking at "January 26"

First off, I'm basically opposed to everything you wrote.

You put your requests forward in an eloquent, understandable and congruous manner.
That constitutes a "good" post, which is why I awarded it with merit.
This is no endorsement of any kind of anything you wrote.

We already have a voting system.
Not everybody is eligible for a vote, though.
You have to qualify by 10 merits.

There is some justification for not trusting people who cannot compose a simple, understandable English sentence.
It's highly unlikely to come to agreeable terms with another party when there's a language barrier.
If both parties understand whatever's been agreed upon differently, the outcome may be considered a breach of contract by either.

That's something to consider, but for the moment, the system itself does not allow that without a lot of work for the Moderators.

An alteration of the idea has been suggested in the past (including, among others, by me): decaying trust.
I.e. a negative trust rating could simply be left for a limited amount of time.
So far, that idea hasn't caught on.

1. 250 earn (cycled) merits from 2 x people destroyed the entire idea and centralised it. Not only that it tied together both systems of control so collusion is easier.

2. anecdotal nonsense that is a faux rebuttal

3. LoyceV does not really have the capacity as I have proven time and time again to differentiate between a net positive and net negative contribution. Also apparently even facts presented to demonstrate clear wrongdoing and untrustworthy actions of his friends are "useless posts"

His post is net negative on the basis that is tries to crush valid points being made by others. Even if he believes the idiotic tripe he produces that does not change the fact that using empty or faux rebuttals to cloud the issue is net negative.

This topic is a year old, and I only realized that after going through it. It looks like you got exactly what you asked for: There is a voting system now: all users with at least 10 earned Merit can vote for DT1, and all DT1-members can "downvote" other DT1 members. It's not perfect, but it limits abuse and manipulation.

And some non-native English speakers made it to DT1 while on the forum for less than a year. See Coolcryptovator (and his Trust list) for example.

Recently, I've read similar statements a few times. It's as if suddenly the "express their thoughts" thing become popular as an excuse for useless posts. Instead of just "spilling their guts", users should try to add value to the discussion.

The vast majority of these issues could be solved if we moved to treating the trust system again as reflecting actual trade, not endless other subjective opinions. Negative ratings should be limited to cases where evidence of theft, violation of a contractual agreement, or violation of the law can be documented. As it is now the trust system is arbitrarily enforced, full of noise, and not something noobs can really use as a quick reference for trust. We should be teaching people to do due diligence and read these ratings anyway, not just to rely on red and green numbers.

Much as I agree with you, I also want to toe the line of thought of the OP because I see a window of balance in his proposition. There have been complaints of bullying, witch hunting and overzealousness of some DT. A system where you can lay a report and these "elders" can elucidate on the submissions and come up with a sanction or otherwise will not be out of place. This will be like an appeal council of elders.

 I think Theymos always try to get as close as possible to decentralized systems. Both with the Merit system and with the Trust System. Often, the suggestions involve centralizing the decisions in some people, like hiring someone or leaving with the mods, or a system of votes. Creating a democracy, with a system of equal votes for each user, is very difficult in an environment where anonymity must prevail. In this current system, it seems to me that the opinion of each user is quite important, although I have not studied the system completely. That is, you add someone or remove someone always counts. I do not have anyone on my Trust list, just the Defalt, but I removed some user I do not trust in opinion.

The whole trust system was implemented back then because the community is just too big to monitor for the limited number of staff. However, times have changed since then. Why not hire a bunch of NEW unbiased staff members and give them money for doing their job. Do hell with all the DT1/DT2/MERIT this MERIT that. Theymos can afford it now cuz he has made millions already. So why leave this task to some unpaid, unprofessional & rude people? Emphasis on some, not all.

I really understand your thoughts,few of these people including me that were tagged as a shitposter were doing their best to express their thoughts.I dont really mind these signatures i am just here to learn the basic things about trading & altcoins.I know that few of these elders already knew that these newly added DTs were abusing their trust ratings to the point that few decent 3rd wolrd shitposters were wrongly tagged and given a red trust.I dont quite understand why these people are opposing theymos rules about the proper use the trust ratings.

Maybe,they were given something that they arent deserved to have or i myself really deserved to have a red trust for being a shitppster from a 3rd world country.I do agree about the spammers,i totally want to see this forum without these spammers but if someone has given a power to stop them they shouldnt target or generalize a race or entity.

Theymos is a great man, i believe he can do something about this to resolve the problems one by one.Thanks blaze for taking actions

I know that and I felt that deep here. What I'm just trying to say is our statement of position here is still not clear, especially the way they want to forum works. Remove these type of people? Do you, me, we have a right? Like I have said before this forum is not a democratic one or lets say it is still not clear what is their way of governing this forum, (control of an organization or group by the majority of its members. see google for democracy). There are people who don't do useless posts like you, but the ratio is almost 1:10, where 10 is the one who make useless posts.
Based on what I have seen in the last few months they are being considerate long enough. They even have the house rules here before a newbie takes a step inside, and some don't even read the rules and some didn't even obeyed the rules and that is a sign of disrespecting the forum. They are here long before me so I respect them for that, and I don't think they missed a reminder telling all the members that don't make a spam.
Some of us broke that rule in the very beginning and they are making them pay for that.

You can not give any advice, theymos is the determinant of what he thinks will stop the shitposter. I myself still do not understand how I get merit from others, because I'm only just a few months here. But, I am not worried, as time went by I learned from this forum not to be one of those “shitposter”.

I would like to add something here. If the user is not good enough to express his thoughts in English then stay out of the English boards. If the signature campaign requires the participants to post only on English boards then do not join that campaign. Simple as that.

Exactly, that's the issue my friend. Many users are making the posts to meet their signature campaign requirement, which encourages the spamming. There is nothing like discrimination, these new rules are just to keep this forum clean.

Sorry to disagree but isn't this discrimination? Some campaigns require their participants to post in specific boards, and local boards, most of the time, aren't one of them. Treating someone's post as a "shitpost" is not okay just because their sentences weren't properly framed.

Thank You Blazed .  Bitcointalk General Public Wins 

The thing is...this forum is not a democracy and never has been. To police the Default Trust users all you need to do is post in meta and things get resolved rather quickly. Here is a great example for you:

1. I add 2 new members to the DT network and they had tagged tons of shit posters.

2. Lots of people disagreed with my plan of fighting the spam.

3. Lots of threads get opened up and Theymos agrees with them that I should not encourage negative trust for spammers.

4. I give the new guys a choice of either changing feedbacks or they can leave DT.

5. Problem solved.


This system is not perfect by any means, but every time a DT member does mess up it gets fixed. No one is perfect obviously and when things need fixed they get fixed.
The self policing of people in DT has been done for years and years here...

1) It got 2 merit points now

2) Another reply from other member got a merit point.

I am sure that they will get more as they get more exposure. I think expecting instant results on quality posts is not a good idea. If you are making quality posts, you will get noticed sooner or later.

respect our eyes by not shitposting to earn a few satoshi then

learn something, educate others, ask valid questions.. the quest for information is not strong here.. it should be as there is a wealth of knowledge.

Respecting people is very important but being rude and inconsiderate is a trait of selfish people who treat others like they are worthless.Remove these type of people from our forum, and you will see how the forum will improves.People who do not respect themselves tend to treat others bad from what I have seen and lastly respect is being earned not given.

We should respect these "elders" who treated this forum as their home. You are hurt because someone is abusing the trust system, giving red trusts to those people who they are shitposters and garbage to the forum but do you really know how they feel. Some legendary here or even heroes treat this place as their world more than the physical world they are living in.
Take for example you are living in the mountains with your family and having a simple life and some private company destroy the ecosystem that you are calling your home in the name of "Money".
I've been here in this forum since 11 months and I learned why they are doing that in a hard way. That's why I'm sticking mostly in my local thread because English is just my second language.
I know that what you are suggesting is for the sake of all the members here IF you are in a democratic club . Maybe you re a member but never forget that making ruckus all over someone else's home may angry those people who originally live there.

That is why I added there should be an explanation thread or something so people can weigh and be the judge.

hi,there i got your idea,maybe we can have a voting system for only those new listed DT members or put them into a probation period so if they were abusive the community including moderators and the old DTs can evaluate them.

Full member and up will not solve anything. Do you read the forum and see Legendary members at each others throats? Or multiple members of all ranks scamming? If someone is pissed at a DT member, no matter their rank, they'll try starting a lynch mob with all their friends.

I agree I also want a voting poll but only those Full Members and up can join to lessen manipulation and with the explanation thread at the same time.

But there are local sections for the people who are not familiar with the english language, they should stick to it. If they are unable to post properly framed sentence, then the post is useless as no one will understand what he wants to say and the users also can not express their views correctly. So instead of wasting their time on the main section, these users should be limited to local section or they should learn to make constructive posts.

I agree with this, DT is outdated and does need a shake up.

at least this merit system is a step in the right direction of cleaning up this place.  once campaign managers start using Merit as the entry requirements for campaigns then there will be a real change in this place

You cannot hold a voting system for promoting and demoting DT users for the simple fact that it will be heavily manipulated by all the butthurt trolls in this place. Someone gets mad at someone else and it just turns to stupidity quick.

Maybe those that are or have been inactive for awhile could be removed and Theymos do an internal vote(with staff and older members) on who he should promote to DT1?

it will take time fella, initially it needs to be embraced in a positive way - examples of a few total newbies getting some love. When that happens then it will spread throughout the forum

Sorry, if my post was too harsh on you, I actually think your idea is decent
and I like that you are giving newbies the chance to gain a few merits.

My main point is that the abuse of the merit system is off the charts after
being live for one day. I have seen great posts receiving 0 merit while
absolute shitposts are being rewarded with tons of merits. This is not even
counting the instances where obviously related people donate merits to each other.

I hope that this will improve in the long-term, but my initial optimism has
faded extremely quickly.

I don't visit those other areas so I cant give merits there, people gave me merits  as I am giving them out to newbies who deserve them. It saves others the grief of doing it themselves, and I am actually doing something other than nothing..

It it yet to be seen how this will play out. However, I have already started to become
more sceptic of the success of the merit system after being very excited about the
change initially (even though I was one of the unluckiest users, because I was only
2 activity points away from becoming a Senior member before the introduction of the merit
system).

Just a few examples:
0 Merit for a very detailed and thoughtful post in Technology & Development:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.28945767

0 Merit for a short, but very helpful reply to the individual with a technical
problem that made him unable to access his Bitcoin
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.28949568

...

Meanwhile...

50 Merit for a one-liner in the Turkish local forum:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.28802606

41 Merit for a one-liner in a Russian ICO thread:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.28906402

58 Merit for TMAN´s Level up challenge:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.28944688

(TMAN´s challenge is not even a bad idea, but you have to admit that it is ridiculous that you have
gained 58 Merits for a post while the thoughtful replies in Development & Technology
are receiving 0 merits)

I hope that the situation will improve when the system has been online for a longer
time, but my initial optimism has quickly faded. Let´s hope that I´m wrong, but as of
now I could find countless other examples where the merit system is not working
as intended (I´m not even counting the instances where people that are obviously
related or are at least working together donate merits to each other).

I take it from your comments that English isn't your native tongue, but your post is eloquent and well written, so you would not be classified as a shitposter with bad English. People like you have nothing to worry about.

just make quality posts and merits will be gained.. take one from me for starters.

Yes i know there are a lot of folks here just because of these signatures,but there are still few people like me who just want to learn but the thing is,there are some DTs who are bullying folks that arent native speakers.And i just want to have a system that can contol those abusers and it doesnt mean that those good guys will be removed from being in charge,i know you are one of the good guys  

I'm with Vod on this one. Most of the activity comes from shitposters and spammers. There's an unbelievable amount of low quality content written with the sole purpose of increasing activity, probably for bounty campaign reasons. I wouldn't want any of these shitposters and multi-account holders to have a saying in anything, let the "elders" do their bidding.

They have not even disclosed the merit sources. If there is voting, what stops someone from manipulating the votes by creating multiple accounts ? It will complicate the situation more.

No.  Right now the active "community" consists mostly of people uninterested in bitcoin.

The "elders" need to stay in charge - they know the true meaning of this forum.  

Dear theymos,
        We should try to have a voting system to promote or demote anyone from your default trust.So if someone on your list has been abusing their privileges,the community will decide if they should remain as DT.

       I suggest we should have atleast an evaluation once a month for these DTs to be sure that they are really helping this community to be peaceful because recently hundreds of accounts are being tagged for FUN,not only the spammers but most of the people who arent native english speakers.I believe there are still DTs who arent not abusing their trust ratings but we need to know what the community's feedback with these abusers!

    I am not against to all the users in your default lists,but i am against to those who are giving red trusts to users who can't compose a simple sentence.

PS: Instead of giving red trust to these spammers,you can give them a penalty like a 30days ban so they cant post any spam within a month and giving them a second chance isnt a bad idea and if these spammers were caught again you can disable their accounts permanently.

I am open for your suggestions,let us help theymos and community.

truly yours,
rey pinioco - not a native speaker.