Topic: Decentralized Exchanges Are Illegal. (Read 7929 times)

Quote from: joesmoe2012 on June 14, 2013, 10:33:30 AM

Well not really. The problem is, even if you are based OUTSIDE of the US, how do you accept USD deposits. And how do you send them when they are withdrawn.

That's why Mt.Gox had trouble in the US, they still had accounts there, even though they aren't based there.

So, how does an exchange get around that?

And why do you even need to accept USD?...hell I've been in btc from early on, never seen or touched a USD in my life. Simple don't trade in USD like 95% of the worlds population Wink

simple, USD has to be wired out the country to be exchanged into BTC.

I guess you have never heard of USD denominated checking accounts in non-USA based banks have you... they have been around for decades.

esenminer

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Quote from: esenminer on June 09, 2013, 02:25:28 PM

This is not true. Nothing in FinCEN prevents you from trading Bitcoins for other cryptocurrency or for FIAT as long as you are acting on your own behalf (i.e. not a business).

The actual method of trading whether centralized or decentralized or meeting at your mom's house has no bearing.

FinCEN applies to US companies which act for consumers as a money services businesses - think Western Union - it doesn't apply to individuals.

You should claim and pay taxes on all income when / if you convert to FIAT.

If selling Bitcoins for cash was illegal so would selling your used gpu or your grandma's antique furniture.

This post is full of inaccuracies.

I suggest you stop posting and start reading.

All this information is from the FinCEN advisories - what else do you suggest I read? In fact the latest out of FinCEN confirms everything I have said:

http://www.fincen.gov/news_room/speech/pdf/20130613.pdf

Which points are inaccurate?

joesmoe2012

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Ching-Chang;Ding-Dong

Quote from: esenminer on June 09, 2013, 02:25:28 PM

This is not true. Nothing in FinCEN prevents you from trading Bitcoins for other cryptocurrency or for FIAT as long as you are acting on your own behalf (i.e. not a business).

The actual method of trading whether centralized or decentralized or meeting at your mom's house has no bearing.

FinCEN applies to US companies which act for consumers as a money services businesses - think Western Union - it doesn't apply to individuals.

You should claim and pay taxes on all income when / if you convert to FIAT.

If selling Bitcoins for cash was illegal so would selling your used gpu or your grandma's antique furniture.

This post is full of inaccuracies.

I suggest you stop posting and start reading.

Stampbit

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OP updated for clarification, its not nice to call people trolls who choose not to think for you.

KSV

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SVERIGES VIRTUELLA VALUTAVÄXLING

Quote from: jackjack on June 12, 2013, 02:32:53 AM

Quote from: Micky25 on June 12, 2013, 02:21:42 AM

Quote from: kelsey on June 11, 2013, 03:40:15 AM

fincen = USA

What about the other 95% of the population Tongue

Yeah mate, think too many on here and the US gov seems to forget there's a big wide world out there outside of the USA.

Also funny that most of these exchanges base themselves in the US.....dat just askin for trouble.

2013-04-11 Israeli banks limit money connected to bitcoin.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/2013-04-11-israeli-banks-limit-money-connected-to-bitcoin-173108

Israel being the 51st state, it's not surprising at all

Puerto Rico is the 51st state. . .

KSV

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Quote from: Micky25 on June 12, 2013, 02:21:42 AM

fincen = USA

What about the other 95% of the population Tongue

Also funny that most of these exchanges base themselves in the US.....dat just askin for trouble.

Well not really. The problem is, even if you are based OUTSIDE of the US, how do you accept USD deposits. And how do you send them when they are withdrawn.

That's why Mt.Gox had trouble in the US, they still had accounts there, even though they aren't based there.

So, how does an exchange get around that?

And why do you even need to accept USD?...hell I've been in btc from early on, never seen or touched a USD in my life. Simple don't trade in USD like 95% of the worlds population Wink

simple, USD has to be wired out the country to be exchanged into BTC.

jackjack

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May Bitcoin be touched by his Noodly Appendage

fincen = USA

What about the other 95% of the population Tongue

Yeah mate, think too many on here and the US gov seems to forget there's a big wide world out there outside of the USA.

Also funny that most of these exchanges base themselves in the US.....dat just askin for trouble.

2013-04-11 Israeli banks limit money connected to bitcoin.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/2013-04-11-israeli-banks-limit-money-connected-to-bitcoin-173108

Israel being the 51st state, it's not surprising at all

Micky25

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fincen = USA

What about the other 95% of the population Tongue

Yeah mate, think too many on here and the US gov seems to forget there's a big wide world out there outside of the USA.

Also funny that most of these exchanges base themselves in the US.....dat just askin for trouble.

2013-04-11 Israeli banks limit money connected to bitcoin.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/2013-04-11-israeli-banks-limit-money-connected-to-bitcoin-173108

[EDIT] ^ old story

Here the current news:
http://www.coindesk.com/israel-banks-resisting-bitcoin-exchanges/
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2425367

Bitcoinpro

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FinCEN have said the opposite

this thread is defamation against FinCEN

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation

Bitcoinpro

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its a troll thread it should really be deleted

gollum

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In Hashrate We Trust!

Quote from: jackjack on June 11, 2013, 04:54:12 AM

fincen = USA

What about the other 95% of the population Tongue

Also funny that most of these exchanges base themselves in the US.....dat just askin for trouble.

Well not really. The problem is, even if you are based OUTSIDE of the US, how do you accept USD deposits. And how do you send them when they are withdrawn.

That's why Mt.Gox had trouble in the US, they still had accounts there, even though they aren't based there.

So, how does an exchange get around that?

Assume that you have a legal forex-deealershop anywhere in the world (except US), noone can stop you from selling bitcoins and receive dollar bills. or any other currency.

crumbs

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According to FINCEN.

Yeah
Come at me FINCEN

You're not from US, but for those who care about FINCEN:
"An exchanger is a person engaged as a business in the exchange of virtual currency for real currency, funds, or other virtual currency"
Cut, paste & Google

jackjack

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May Bitcoin be touched by his Noodly Appendage

Quote from: kelsey on June 11, 2013, 03:40:15 AM

According to FINCEN.

Yeah
Come at me FINCEN

bigdude

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Dolphins Finance TRUSTED FINANCE

fincen = USA

What about the other 95% of the population Tongue

Also funny that most of these exchanges base themselves in the US.....dat just askin for trouble.

Well not really. The problem is, even if you are based OUTSIDE of the US, how do you accept USD deposits. And how do you send them when they are withdrawn.

That's why Mt.Gox had trouble in the US, they still had accounts there, even though they aren't based there.

So, how does an exchange get around that?

And why do you even need to accept USD?...hell I've been in btc from early on, never seen or touched a USD in my life. Simple don't trade in USD like 95% of the worlds population Wink

My point was that as an EXCHANGE, you would really want to accept USD right? otherwise you are cutting out a big market - ie. all US peeps

kelsey

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fincen = USA

What about the other 95% of the population Tongue

Also funny that most of these exchanges base themselves in the US.....dat just askin for trouble.

Well not really. The problem is, even if you are based OUTSIDE of the US, how do you accept USD deposits. And how do you send them when they are withdrawn.

That's why Mt.Gox had trouble in the US, they still had accounts there, even though they aren't based there.

So, how does an exchange get around that?

And why do you even need to accept USD?...hell I've been in btc from early on, never seen or touched a USD in my life. Simple don't trade in USD like 95% of the worlds population Wink

bigdude

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Dolphins Finance TRUSTED FINANCE

fincen = USA

What about the other 95% of the population Tongue

Also funny that most of these exchanges base themselves in the US.....dat just askin for trouble.

Well not really. The problem is, even if you are based OUTSIDE of the US, how do you accept USD deposits. And how do you send them when they are withdrawn.

That's why Mt.Gox had trouble in the US, they still had accounts there, even though they aren't based there.

So, how does an exchange get around that?

kelsey

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fincen = USA

What about the other 95% of the population Tongue

Yeah mate, think too many on here and the US gov seems to forget there's a big wide world out there outside of the USA.

Also funny that most of these exchanges base themselves in the US.....dat just askin for trouble.

owsleybeatsbigcartel

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Quote from: ninjaboon on June 08, 2013, 05:03:39 PM

According to FINCEN.

FINCOIN ? >> pos i kaint get it to sync ! =) ha

owsleybeatsbigcartel

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Quote from: puffpuffpass on June 08, 2013, 04:45:25 PM

Quote from: desert_beagle on June 08, 2013, 07:49:36 PM

According to FINCEN.

I hope they shut down Bitcoin. Would be funny.

They would have to shut off the Internet in it's entirety.

its starting....back to the smoke signal coin

BitcoinAshley

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When the government gets hold of some people and puts them in federal penitentiary for felony tax evasion, people will learn. You DON'T need a big red "OFF" button to shut down bitcoin. Bitcoin is very fragile. For crying out loud people go into panic mode whenever they see a large sell order. Also any new laws or regulations will deter future investors thus preventing new "fiat" from coming in.

LOL, wtf are you talking about? The government puts people in jail for felony tax evasion all the time, and people STILL evade taxes at a felony level. So what makes you think the deterrence will suddenly start working now that it's even EASIER do to it undetectably? Roll Eyes

That's like saying "When the government gets hold of some people and slaps a huge fine on them for felony copyright violation, people will learn - they will all suddenly STOP using torrents!"

For the record, regulation decreases supply and increases demand. Wild short-term fluctuations are not relevant. A few months ago bitcoin was $10 and a few years ago it was $1 and before that it was one cent. Try some perspective before you FUD yourself to death.

worldinacoin

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Bitcoin isn't an exchange at all, it is a software!

AlternaPost

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Does anyone have a specific source for this claim?

drrussellshane

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Quote from: BitcoinBarrel on June 09, 2013, 11:28:53 AM

Wouldn't surprise me if giving your kid a pop tart is illegal nowadays.

I don't know, but if your kid bites that pop tart into the shape of a pistol, you may be an accessory.

http://reason.com/blog/2013/03/01/pop-tart-pistol-7-year-old-gets-suspende

Stampbit

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Quote from: BTCLuke on June 09, 2013, 12:46:46 PM

I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't already have the OP and PuffPuffPass on ignore yet.

Judging by your reactions, they're doing a Grade A troll job here.

The only trolls here are the ones still living under a bridge.

Stampbit

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FINCEN covers anyone who transfers money between two parties, be it virtual or real, they are therefore a MSB and must be registered as such. The cost of doing so is millions of dollars on the state level, and anyone who trades USD or with americans must be regulated. Ripple and any decentralized exchange theory therefore will be illegal as no one within the network can afford to be regulated. Even if such a network existed on tor it must at some point interface with the banks and it is at that point that FINCEN can begin hanging people to scare the rest into submission.

esenminer

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This is not true. Nothing in FinCEN prevents you from trading Bitcoins for other cryptocurrency or for FIAT as long as you are acting on your own behalf (i.e. not a business).

The actual method of trading whether centralized or decentralized or meeting at your mom's house has no bearing.

FinCEN applies to US companies which act for consumers as a money services businesses - think Western Union - it doesn't apply to individuals.

You should claim and pay taxes on all income when / if you convert to FIAT.

If selling Bitcoins for cash was illegal so would selling your used gpu or your grandma's antique furniture.

BTCLuke

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My other Avatar is also Scrooge McDuck

I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't already have the OP and PuffPuffPass on ignore yet.

Judging by your reactions, they're doing a Grade A troll job here.

UncleBobs

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It From Bit

The regime is tightening its sinister grip! Be afraid! Run! Run!!!

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/united-states/130607/what-if-journalists-covered-us-like-they-cover-world

KSV

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According to FINCEN.

they cant regulate the whole world, it will be fun for us to watch them try tho.

bigdude

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Dolphins Finance TRUSTED FINANCE

fincen = USA

What about the other 95% of the population Tongue

BitcoinBarrel

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Fill Your Barrel with Bitcoins!

Wouldn't surprise me if giving your kid a pop tart is illegal nowadays.

crazynoggin

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Maybe it is time to have a major decentralized cryptotrading site on the tor network even if this is a troll.

gollum

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In Hashrate We Trust!

Quote from: desert_beagle on June 08, 2013, 07:49:36 PM

According to FINCEN.

They can jerk off

Prophet

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Bitcoin will not survive.

It was not designed to, it is only an experiment to test the waters; The real global champion will
be the one that rises from it's ashes, better, faster, stronger: Anti-fragile perfected.

We are already seeing the emergence of a true world government by the people for the people and for
that the first shot is establishing a currency that no nation or corporation can control. You can almost
say that Bitcoin is the internet nations currency an underlying web that connects everyone in the
planet now with a currency to match.

Smile and wave, we are the new Boston tea party.

that exchange that people are talking about, who cares if it is illegal? If it's useful people will use it and
even those who wish to stop it will see the ideology behind it and they will make the same mistake they
always do, enforcing it by the point of a gun, taking away ones logic or their life. silly rabbits tricks are for kids.

acceptance2

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When the government gets hold of some people and puts them in federal penitentiary for felony tax evasion, people will learn. You DON'T need a big red "OFF" button to shut down bitcoin. Bitcoin is very fragile. For crying out loud people go into panic mode whenever they see a large sell order. Also any new laws or regulations will deter future investors thus preventing new "fiat" from coming in.

Good thing Bitcoin is " the world currency " and not owned, managed or controlled by the US.

As BTC becomes more widely distributed, any actions the US takes will be tantamount to pissing in the wind.

It will take time but there is no doubt it will survive attacks from those slowly losing control.

And eventually THRIVE, just like BitTorrent.

GGGGG

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So is Silk Road - the whole point is that P2P solutions cannot be destroyed by outside forces.

Cryptoman

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Quote from: threeip on June 08, 2013, 05:02:20 PM

According to FINCEN.

Not if every person registers as a MSB?
Coming soon, MSB forms stapled to birth certificates Wink

It's probably true that trading in any sort of unregistered or un-tracked financial instrument is or will soon be illegal in most jurisdictions. That's why any type of decentralized exchange, to be successful in the long run, must be anonymous/pseudonymous. On the positive side, all of the restrictions governments are imposing on fiat currencies are making them less and less like real money every day. That can only bode well for the value of cryptocurrencies, and we may soon be much less interested in exchanging them with fiat.

desert_beagle

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When the government gets hold of some people and puts them in federal penitentiary for felony tax evasion, people will learn. You DON'T need a big red "OFF" button to shut down bitcoin. Bitcoin is very fragile. For crying out loud people go into panic mode whenever they see a large sell order. Also any new laws or regulations will deter future investors thus preventing new "fiat" from coming in.

BTCTalkAccounts

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-

grue

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bait topic is bait

empoweoqwj

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Quote from: puffpuffpass on June 08, 2013, 05:06:02 PM

According to FINCEN.

Out for your Sunday morning Troll I see.

2D

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Quote from: ninjaboon on June 08, 2013, 05:03:39 PM

Quote from: puffpuffpass on June 08, 2013, 04:45:25 PM

According to FINCEN.

I hope they shut down Bitcoin. Would be funny.

They would have to shut off the Internet in it's entirety.

Shows what an idiot you are.

PPP dazzling us with his razor sharp intellect again Cheesy

bluemeanie1

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bluemeanie

According to FINCEN.

care to back up that statement with some information?

I know it's asking a lot around here.

westkybitcoins

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Firstbits: Compromised. Thanks, Android!

Quote from: ninjaboon on June 08, 2013, 05:03:39 PM

According to FINCEN.

*Shrug*

They're decentralized. The legality doesn't matter, they'll have a pretty rough time stopping them.

puffpuffpass

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I'm nobody.

Quote from: puffpuffpass on June 08, 2013, 04:45:25 PM

Quote from: puffpuffpass on June 08, 2013, 04:45:25 PM

According to FINCEN.

I hope they shut down Bitcoin. Would be funny.

They would have to shut off the Internet in it's entirety.

Shows what an idiot you are.

ninjaboon

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According to FINCEN.

I hope they shut down Bitcoin. Would be funny.

They would have to shut off the Internet in it's entirety.

threeip

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According to FINCEN.

Not if every person registers as a MSB?
Coming soon, MSB forms stapled to birth certificates Wink

puffpuffpass

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I'm nobody.