Author

Topic: Decentralized Securities (Mastercoin, Colored Coins, etc.) - SEC regulation? (Read 2711 times)

legendary
Activity: 1442
Merit: 1001

There was a time when I suspected you might have something to contribute here.

There was a time when you attempted to represent something more than a cornered animal.

There was a time when MPOE-PR hadn't broken you yet.

Those times have passed, and the corner you're in is part of an empty room.

Kick and scream all you like, no one is letting you out.

TaT - you still in control of your bitcointalk.org account? I don't have a clue about what you seem to be perturbed by.
sr. member
Activity: 330
Merit: 255
There was a time when I suspected you might have something to contribute here.

There was a time when you attempted to represent something more than a cornered animal.

There was a time when MPOE-PR hadn't broken you yet.

Those times have passed, and the corner you're in is part of an empty room.

Kick and scream all you like, no one is letting you out.

Huh? Are you feeling OK? Huh

I don't know where or when it was that you decided I was somehow deserving of such a heap of empty-headed abuse, especially as I don't recall the two of us ever directly discussing anything of substance with one another that ought to have left either of us with any particularly strong impression one way or the other about the other person.

From out here in the real world, it sounds like you've decided to be an MP lemming or something, with this sort of content-free drivel. As for MPOE-PR, OMG that is too funny. Roll Eyes

I guess you haven't actually bothered to read what a fool she made of herself the last time she decided to start an argument with me -- but writing as if you think you know when you obviously do not have the faintest idea sure doesn't reflect well on you.

Anyway, sorry OP -- I have no idea why, but TAT has had some kind of bizarre misfire here and decided to drag your discussion into the gutter with zanily off-target ad hominem attacks directed at me rather than offering something of actual substance to the conversation.

Back to the actual topic, anyone, or has TAT's outburst thoroughly poisoned the water?
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
Well, look, the crowd is learning!

Hmmm, condescend much? Wink

They can perform a level of filtering, of due diligence, of guidance, and of overall service that a protocol simply can't.

Many folks with investment experience out in the fiat world would likely reply that exchanges have no business whatsoever offering either "guidance" or "due diligence" or anything remotely related -- and that they should, instead, make it their business to provide the smoothly functioning underlying mechanics that everyone else needs to be able to count on. Admittedly, exchanges which make that their business will also likely enforce sane listing criteria as part of ensuring the underlying mechanics really can work smoothly. But those criteria have little or nothing to do with trustworthiness or -- more importantly -- with whether something is a good investment or a poor investment. Rather, those criteria centre on accountability.

You can not remove trust from the equation. Decentralized exchanges serve as automation of a protocol, not a magic bullet to protect people.

This is why people should be focusing on a better WoT, and better WoT integration into web-based services, etc.

Nor, however, is trust a magic bullet to protect people: on the contrary, "trust" as reflected by crude mechanisms like the WoT has almost nothing to do with separating good investments from bad. It is only the presence of bona fide and well validated negative trust which reveals anything whatsoever of relevance to the job of separating good investments from bad; the presence or absence of positive trust tells us virtually nothing about the competence of an individual as a manager, entrepreneur or investor, or about the merits of any particular investment associated with them.

(The WoT is better understood as an attempt to solve the problems created by conflating privacy and anonymity than as any direct indicator of investment quality.)

From the perspective of "smart money" investment capital flowing into Bitcoin, the WoT is singularly irrelevant. When VCs and angel investors fund projects, that capital comes into the Bitcoin economy because of the efforts of real, identifiable people, with known identities and real world accountability, people whose levels of competence can be directly assessed by the investors. That capital does not flow into a project because a pseudonymous and ultimately unaccountable would-be entrepreneur has 999 positive ratings on the WoT.

I guess what I'm really asking is, "Is there a way to specifically establish a level of trust for a given
issuer in a decentralized, quantifiable way?" How about a system similar to a consumer credit rating
or a DNB rating for a business? Does WoT really address this completely?

IMHO, not in the least (for the last of those three questions). But even if it could, "trust" as reflected by something like the WoT will never cut it from the perspective of an investor.

Suggesting otherwise might seem neat and tidy at first glance, but it's actually confusing the relatively easier job of ensuring mechanical compliance with a set of requirements -- foremost among them, not running off with someone's coins -- with the ultimately much harder job of separating the wheat from the chaff in a field of investment candidates.

With the relatively rare spectacular exception, the fiat world has the mechanical compliance part down pat. Very few people worry, for example, that the underwriters for this or that latest IPO are going to run off to Bermuda with everybody's money. And yet, people do in fact lose their shirts and their Bermuda shorts every single day as a result of making bad investments. If there were the sort of connection between the "trust" part and the "good investment" part that some might like you to believe in, we'd all be fiat zillionaires by now.


There was a time when I suspected you might have something to contribute here.

There was a time when you attempted to represent something more than a cornered animal.

There was a time when MPOE-PR hadn't broken you yet.

Those times have passed, and the corner you're in is part of an empty room.

Kick and scream all you like, no one is letting you out.
sr. member
Activity: 330
Merit: 255
Well, look, the crowd is learning!

Hmmm, condescend much? Wink

They can perform a level of filtering, of due diligence, of guidance, and of overall service that a protocol simply can't.

Many folks with investment experience out in the fiat world would likely reply that exchanges have no business whatsoever offering either "guidance" or "due diligence" or anything remotely related -- and that they should, instead, make it their business to provide the smoothly functioning underlying mechanics that everyone else needs to be able to count on. Admittedly, exchanges which make that their business will also likely enforce sane listing criteria as part of ensuring the underlying mechanics really can work smoothly. But those criteria have little or nothing to do with trustworthiness or -- more importantly -- with whether something is a good investment or a poor investment. Rather, those criteria centre on accountability.

You can not remove trust from the equation. Decentralized exchanges serve as automation of a protocol, not a magic bullet to protect people.

This is why people should be focusing on a better WoT, and better WoT integration into web-based services, etc.

Nor, however, is trust a magic bullet to protect people: on the contrary, "trust" as reflected by crude mechanisms like the WoT has almost nothing to do with separating good investments from bad. It is only the presence of bona fide and well validated negative trust which reveals anything whatsoever of relevance to the job of separating good investments from bad; the presence or absence of positive trust tells us virtually nothing about the competence of an individual as a manager, entrepreneur or investor, or about the merits of any particular investment associated with them.

(The WoT is better understood as an attempt to solve the problems created by conflating privacy and anonymity than as any direct indicator of investment quality.)

From the perspective of "smart money" investment capital flowing into Bitcoin, the WoT is singularly irrelevant. When VCs and angel investors fund projects, that capital comes into the Bitcoin economy because of the efforts of real, identifiable people, with known identities and real world accountability, people whose levels of competence can be directly assessed by the investors. That capital does not flow into a project because a pseudonymous and ultimately unaccountable would-be entrepreneur has 999 positive ratings on the WoT.

I guess what I'm really asking is, "Is there a way to specifically establish a level of trust for a given
issuer in a decentralized, quantifiable way?" How about a system similar to a consumer credit rating
or a DNB rating for a business? Does WoT really address this completely?

IMHO, not in the least (for the last of those three questions). But even if it could, "trust" as reflected by something like the WoT will never cut it from the perspective of an investor.

Suggesting otherwise might seem neat and tidy at first glance, but it's actually confusing the relatively easier job of ensuring mechanical compliance with a set of requirements -- foremost among them, not running off with someone's coins -- with the ultimately much harder job of separating the wheat from the chaff in a field of investment candidates.

With the relatively rare spectacular exception, the fiat world has the mechanical compliance part down pat. Very few people worry, for example, that the underwriters for this or that latest IPO are going to run off to Bermuda with everybody's money. And yet, people do in fact lose their shirts and their Bermuda shorts every single day as a result of making bad investments. If there were the sort of connection between the "trust" part and the "good investment" part that some might like you to believe in, we'd all be fiat zillionaires by now.
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 504
I'm just not seeing how a grand decentralization plan for securities is going to make a real difference in my freedom to
invest in crypto securities. Any insights from the professionals around here? Thanks in advance!

It's more that you cannot physically shutter a decentralized platform down in the same manner you could a centralized one.
When GLBSE, BTCT.co and Bitfunder went dark, alot of people lost money as a result, Asset issuers and shareholders then had to scramble to transfer shares. Some made this process a very smooth experience, others made this complicated and unwieldy. You cannot get goxxed by incompetence of a 'PHP can do anything' type of guy that bit off way more than they can chew, for example with a securely designed protocol because your money is in your hands and you know whether you can trust yourself. The amount of outright scams, hacks and losses over the past years from storing your private keys online is just shocking, totally sick. these decentralized exchanges can allow the owner to take their own custody of keys. The brilliance of bitcoin was the protocol allowed you to be your own bank, now you can be your own exchange.

I'm a fan of the concept of these next-gen layers that will decentralize what was previously only available with caveat of a single points of failure and required blindly trusting the competence & integrity of the operators. For instance, trustless asset exchange, decentralized betting markets & derivatives. I don't think at all that they will entirely replace centralized exchanges at all because there is many features which they simply cannot compete with. they are not suitable for 'high frequency' style trades- by comparison they are cumbersome, and f course due to the fact there is no central entity which governs and filters listings, no listing fees, no verification there will be an influx of scams. Asset issuers are able to give a description with a signed message for instance and a link to a web-of trust or other such identity mechanism, it will really be honest people remaining honest and having to do own due-diligence for any potential investor for the time being until some serious effort goes into working on a 'cheat-resistant' rating and trust authentication scheme . even high-profile centralized exchanges have definately not been free from scams either, see for instance labcoin. in which the asset was approved for listing on btct, raising multi-million $ worth in bitcoin and exchange allowing withdrawal of that total amount shortly after, all with not so much as a simple identity document. this was after many, many concerns were raised and red-flags all over the place.

We are still in a very early phase of these types of services. I have looked at several implementations including, coinprism (predictous' colored coins), SFETS, Nxt, MSC , CounterParty) My personal favorite and one I believe has the brightest future ahead is counterwallet from the counterparty XCP community. You can test some basic asset creation function on an alpha web-wallet here. https://testnet.counterwallet.co/# example of assets. http://www.blockscan.com/assetInfo.aspx?q=MPTSTOCK
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 509
The WoT appears to be subject to scammer infiltration as well, though infinitely better than blind trust.

This is my main issue with WoT. Very vulnerable to shills/hackers/scammers.

Quote
I guess what I'm really asking is, "Is there a way to specifically establish a level of trust for a given
issuer in a decentralized, quantifiable way?" How about a system similar to a consumer credit rating
or a DNB rating for a business? Does WoT really address this completely?

Yes WoT is the solution to that specific problem. But it is far from perfect at its present state.

This is another topic for intense debate but unrelated to the purpose of the colored coin protocol.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 509
Won't the governing authorities just go after the security
issuers directly?

Congrats. You discovered the main purpose of decentralizing trading.

They can perform a level of filtering, of due diligence, of guidance, and of overall service that a protocol simply can't.

This is not the purpose of a decentralizing trading protocol. There will still be 3rd parties/exchanges doing due diligence. Exactly what they do now but now with the ease/speed/security of a standardized/universal protocol for recording ownership.

Quote
This is why people should be focusing on a better WoT, and better WoT integration into web-based services, etc.

I agree but we don't need a universal/standard WoT. We do not need a central point of weakness within any system.


A great example of how colored coins would benefit us investonomers would be looking at the bitfunder/btct.co situation. Had colored coins been implemented, instead of painstakingly manually reading/exporting/converting every security on the site, users could have simply set an address to receive colored coins and all shares could have been sent out in minutes with little effort.

This means that it will no longer be a huge problem when the SEC steps in and makes "owner of X exchange" halt trading/shut down.

Of course this will not solve the problem of scammers creating bitcoin securities, but that is like assuming that the purpose of bitcoin was to remove all scammers from using currencies.
member
Activity: 69
Merit: 10
And yet there are investment platforms like litecoininvest.com which do actually care about no scam policy, filtering out securities, chechking identities of security issuers and lots of more things, just to make sure that platform users would not be cheeted of their hard mined (our traded) coins.

(yes its a shamefull advertisement).
Neil of litecoininvest.com
full member
Activity: 213
Merit: 100
Well, look, the crowd is learning!

TaT, it only took me from APR/2012 to present to learn to start asking the right questions. The WoT
appears to be subject to scammer infiltration as well, though infinitely better than blind trust.

Would there be any way of "seasoning" a decentralized security in similar fashion to a promissory
note? This would assist in providing a discount rate for said security.

I guess what I'm really asking is, "Is there a way to specifically establish a level of trust for a given
issuer in a decentralized, quantifiable way?" How about a system similar to a consumer credit rating
or a DNB rating for a business? Does WoT really address this completely?

I'm looking at 5 years in the future when new products and services are flying into the crypto space.
I want a way to make good calculated risks with investments through a decentralized method that
attempts to quantify trust ratings as much as is realistically possible. I want to eliminate as much
subjectivity in trust ratings as possible.

Maybe WoT is already the right vehicle...maybe it could be improved upon.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
Reading MPEx's response to SEC inquiries about SD has got me thinking more about decentralized securities platforms.
Even if all the crypto securities exchanges are eventually shut down or brought into compliance, how will a decentralized
platform for securities issuance and trading give us more liberty to invest what we want, when we want, and with whom
we choose? Won't the SEC just track down and shutdown the issuers themselves?

I mean, before I would want to invest in a crypto security, I'd want to know the details of the offering! This would include
most certainly the identification of the issuing companies' lead personnel. If that is a basic tenet of securities investment,
then how will a decentralized platform help the situation? Won't the governing authorities just go after the security
issuers directly?

I'm just not seeing how a grand decentralization plan for securities is going to make a real difference in my freedom to
invest in crypto securities. Any insights from the professionals around here? Thanks in advance!

Well, look, the crowd is learning!

Decentralized securities will look a lot like Cryptostocks, a haven for scams.

Aside from legalities of an exchange like MPEx or Havelock, or issuing profitshares in bitcoin businesses, the reality of it is that a trustworthy centralized exchange has a lot more to offer than a decentralized one.

They can perform a level of filtering, of due diligence, of guidance, and of overall service that a protocol simply can't.

Remember, the issuer is always centralized anyway.

There may be fringe possibilities of automated derivatives based on mining difficulty and things like that, but even those would need to be programmed and maintained by someone, ultimately giving a centralized source the power and responsibility of controlling them.

You can not remove trust from the equation. Decentralized exchanges serve as automation of a protocol, not a magic bullet to protect people.

This is why people should be focusing on a better WoT, and better WoT integration into web-based services, etc.
full member
Activity: 213
Merit: 100
Reading MPEx's response to SEC inquiries about SD has got me thinking more about decentralized securities platforms.
Even if all the crypto securities exchanges are eventually shut down or brought into compliance, how will a decentralized
platform for securities issuance and trading give us more liberty to invest what we want, when we want, and with whom
we choose? Won't the SEC just track down and shutdown the issuers themselves?

I mean, before I would want to invest in a crypto security, I'd want to know the details of the offering! This would include
most certainly the identification of the issuing companies' lead personnel. If that is a basic tenet of securities investment,
then how will a decentralized platform help the situation? Won't the governing authorities just go after the security
issuers directly?

I'm just not seeing how a grand decentralization plan for securities is going to make a real difference in my freedom to
invest in crypto securities. Any insights from the professionals around here? Thanks in advance!
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