Topic: Destroying Bitcoin with a single question (Read 382 times)

If you got your bitcoins for free this is like puting a record into your Excel spreadsheet for free. Hence, irrelevant for this topic. Since you all keep ignoring the question of this topic I'll repeat it:

If you hold all the BTC in the world how can you benefit from them WITHOUT selling them to someone else?

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All systems can be used for Ponzi, but decentralized ones are ideal as they can hide actual fraudsters. Bitcoin is a textbook example of that. Its organizers and whales are unknown to the public.

Regarding the rest. The same as some people see the flat shape of the Earth some see value in bitcoin. But the reality is different. The Earth is round. Bitcoin is worthless - you can benefit from it only from the funds that reside in the pockets of new investors. Without new investors your bitcoins are not different than a numerical record in your Excel spreadsheet.

Both fiat and cryptocurrency are based on supply and demand, as long as there's someone who is going to buy and sell bitcoin, bitcoin will never be destroy. As long as there's demand for the product then it will have a value. Bitcoin and fiat are both backed by nothing but still existing because there's people who want it. Fiat have unlimited supply Bitcoin does have have only 21M, So think again. If a product have a limited supply the demand for it will increase overtime. Bitcoin will never be destroy, it's the cash of the future.

I agree with this point of view. Bitcoin has been argued and presented with so many negative perspectives, yet, we are still here in this forum talking about bitcoin and crypto. I don't think bitcoin will ever be destroyed by a single question.We already have come so far and achieved so many things owed to bitcoin. This is not applicable anymore I guess.


I think one major gap as of now between crypto and fiat is the number of people who are using it. Fiat obviously is being used by majority, whereas, crypto users are still in small percentage as compared to the global population.

Fiat also doesn't have real value but rather promised value. The paper is not worth anything and banks don't have enough gold and other metals to give fiat money its value.

It's all based on trust. The buyer trusts that the seller will accept his paper money and the seller trusts that if he sells the item his supplier will accept paper money and provide him with another item for sale. If any point in this circle of trust fails the whole system will fail.

Fiat money isn't better than crypto.

Money should not have real value. Money (fiat or cryptocurrency) is just a temporary measure of the value of any goods or services. Some things or services have value, money is just a tool to achieve any goal, since it is convenient in the modern world. We must not forget about it. Cryptocurrency is more suitable for these purposes than fiat money.

That's not even close. As far as I know, he was very active in many Croatian forums, too. Not to mention comments on various news portals ...

Maybe he's trying to collapse the price of BTC with his FUD so he can get into the 'scheme' too?

I'm really intrigued on what's his motivation to make literally a 147 posts attacking bitcoin on a public forum from which he gains nothing o.o

Of course it is him, I would highly advise everyone to put OP on ignore, he is bloody troll who is calling bitcoin a scam on various crypto forums for last several years, just google this site https://btcprevara.wordpress.com/ and you will see fudster shitting against bitcoin everywhere.

Whatever You say it doesn't really matter, he will just call it "ad hominem", "no valid argument", "trolling" and continue with his "bitcoin is number in spreadsheet", "banana is worth more than bitcoin" thingy.  

He joined specifically to argue about Bitcoin. If you look at his post history, his first post and all of his posts are just rants. He never was into the cryptosphere. Don't know what kind of a person spends so much time arguing with strangers online without any monetary incentive though.

But one thing you can't do, you cannot move my BTC to other address as long as you don't have my private key while I can create the same excel as you are because I have an MS excel program in my pc and type the number you typed on the same cell with the same font and style thus making us both have the same work format.  I thought this is just a single question but then, I have seen lots.  If you are so fed up with BTC because of its high volatility  or how it functions then no one is stopping you from leaving the crypto sphere.  


No they are not the same, you cannot sell your number on that excel but I can sell my Bitcoin on the market because there is a demand for it.  

And if you are talking about the Ponzi scheme, pretty much everything in the market is a Ponzi scheme, you buy it low then you wait for some fool to buy it at a higher price.  It does not seem different in how Bitcoin Market work.

The one person who kept such argument come to surface very time is Peter Schiff who apparently own some Bitcoin which his wallet forgot his password.  He soon asked for help to recover his BTC despite it backed by nothing as he claimed. Bitcoin has been around for a decade and yet not even a single government had successfully stopped BTC from growing, this is because THAT QUESTION is a question from someone who hasn't grasp the reality that BTC is here to stay.

All the ponzi schemes are backed by a centralized organization. If no one backs it, then it can not be a ponzi scheme, just like no one backs gold, it is just widely accepted as a valuable thing

The key question is where does this wide acceptance come from, it is coming from something like religion: If you believe it has value, then it will have value, driven by your action under your belief

Yeah sure, but your excel record is centralized and can easily easily be shutdown by centralized entities if they really wanted to. The Bitcoin blockchain on the other hand, is far far FAR less vulnerable to whatever attacks.

I just gave you an example of how you can use bitcoin without selling it. Bitcoin. is. money. You spend it, you receive it, you save it. Not that hard to understand the concept of hard money.

What about the centralized fiats, are they not still be used for ponzi scheme? Have your Central Banks stop the production of bank notes? What about money laundering in your country by political classes? Am not dumbed and will not be dumb to your unfounded analysis. Keep it up, we're not going to sell our Bitcoin for now because people like me saw a value in it toah!!.

Is your fiat could be suspect for any money laundering activity? Yes.
Can bitcoin could be used for such activities? No.

Stop being a big spender, give value to your life that once you die we could mourn

I was sure the internet has something appropriate for the occasion.


Thanks to DjMethod from imgur.com

OP all your assumptions are based on us buying bitcoins and then being unable to take real value from them because of not selling.

What if I got my bitcoins for free? What if I earned them when they were worth only a few dollars. I literally wrote a few posts a couple years ago and got 0.1 BTC for it.
To me the value invested is almost non existent so i'm not eager to sell now. I did work worth maybe 1000 USD at the time and after a few years are holding coins with the value of 100k USD. I got my 1k back long time ago and all that I hold now is free money.

Now let's talk about selling. I don't want fiat, I want potential value and security so for me the situation with BTC growing on my wallet is ideal. I have enough money to live by and I prefer to have an investment than another car to drive on weekends.

I won't sell because I want to avoid exchanges and their fees. I prefer to wait until I'm able to convert my coins directly into physical items without a middle man. I don't know how that "destroys bitcoin".

Well, it is impossible to have something that's decentralized and backed by something. That's why decentralization is a perfect way to organize Ponzi schemes - as they are backed by nothing. That's the whole point.

As per opinion, we shouldn't feed this troll with the needed information because he/she choose to remain in the dark forever. People such cannibal are left with their thought in their lower abdomen. Let me ask you this: how is it possible to have something that's decentralized and atoll be backed by something? I mean, something centralized? I mean, something like shits?. This'd the reason why Bitcoin cannot be backed by anything like gold or the fiat. It has been one success and the other with Bitcoin and you're here causing FUD, shame on you all who can't leave this forum.

The purpose of my assumptions was not to represent reality. Of course that buying all stocks or bitcoins is unrealistic. The purpose was to help understand that unlike in stocks or fiat currencies, no actual value is owned by bitcoin holders - just like in the case of my Excel record. People hold bitcoins. I hold my Excel record. And we can all benefit only from selling our records to other people, just like in Ponzi schemes. So your comment is besides the point

The hypothetical situation you are describing is complete BS.Have you ever heard of fractional reserve banking?I will be glad if you really go to a bank and claim something in exchange for your precious fiat money.
I guess you mean bank deposits,not actual fiat money.If all the bank customers claim their deposits at the same time,the bank just bankrupts and it won't pay anything to anyone.
Bitcoin is backed by the trust of it's users in the blockchain technology.
Fiat money are backed by the "trust" every nation has in it's own government.

If you own all the bitcoins in the world and you decided not to sell them, why would ~1M people even want to validate the fact that your Bitcoin record is owned by you in a non-deniable way?

The rest is just a long way of saying that you can sell your bitcoins, while the question that this topic deals with is how can you benefit from bitcoins WITHOUT selling them to someone.

That is not a very good argument against any asset that can be traded freely.

The questions to destroy OP's bitcoin destroying question would be pretty simple.

Where would the price reach if a party with that wealth wanted to buy all of bitcoin?
Would everybody sell? How about mining?

It's something against any rational party's interest. Freely tradable goods are only valuable so long as there's demand and a market around them. No rational actor will ever want to buy all of bitcoin. Even considering that it might be possible and overlooking other holes in this mindset. Any issues that might arise from a single party owning all of BTC are less severe than a single party owning all of another asset.

If a party buys all of the stock of a company, it's faced with devaluation if they seek to liquidate again. Value is based on human actions and not on utility with stocks. After a stock is desisted, there's no free market for it unless regulators step in again to allow a re-listing. With bitcoin, those hurdles wouldn't exist. The party owning all of BTC could liquidate without limitations. Not even those limitations phrased in the OP. It doesn't matter that BTC can't be liquidated like company assets, because it can be liquidated in any other way.

You know the people with people is they think the traditional methods are the rule stated by some big body that you cannot just break .
Fiat , gold everything is working according to the government , according to the system .
But we fail to realize that ,
Chang is the nature of nature
We will have new systems time to time , new currencies , new ways . We have to be very welcoming to these things , because people who are too stern usually are not able to survive for long .
Time is ever changing and bitcoins is a new system , which is balanced by the people itself , no one else , I do think you should be ok with this idea , even if you don't support it please don't ridicule people who do.

Can you have ~1M people validate the fact that your Excel record is owned by you in a non-deniable way? Can you split the record in 100,000,000 different pieces, transfer every single piece to other people's excel sheets and make this all in a fully transparent and deny-proof way AND have these ~1M people validate every single change for you?

The answer is no. I'd go further with these type of questions, but it makes no sense to me.

Now about your argument that Bitcoin cannot be used to buy properties, it can actually be used to buy almost anything if you're willing to. You can buy cars, real estate, electronics, you can do your grocery shopping, get a hotel room, a lunch.. hell, you can even go get a one-night girl with it. And these are just some examples. Now take your excel sheet, go to Lamborghini's dealership and let them know you want to buy a car with your Excel sheet.. You can throw it in the trash as well, because you can't get any of that.

Your arguments sound more like "praise banks, fuck freedom". Gold would be just as worthless if scientists will ever figure a way to reproduce gold out of thin air - and I honestly believe there's gonna be a certain point where they will. Can just anyone reproduce your Excel record? Yes. Can anyone produce the 21,000,001th Bitcoin out of thin air? No. Can you transform your entire wealth into an Excel record and go around the world having it all sit in your pocket with the possibility of buying fiat again with it at any given time? No.

Hence, your arguments make no sense to me. It looks to me like you don't understand Bitcoin well enough to understand why it's such an amazing store of value. Fuck fiat. Fuck banks. Praise Bitcoin

Receiving bitcoin for the sake of receiving it is also what I can do with someone's Excel record. The conversion of currencies is buying and selling them. I will repeat: the whole point of this topic is the question how can you benefit from bitcoins without selling them to someone.

I suppose you do not understand how monetary policy works in any country  . You think banks are just producing money. There is a regulation to that and even to its' used. By the way, you cannot single-handedly buy the owe stock. It is impossible to even in some third world countries that are more corrupt, that is not possible. Have you ever imagining the reason why there are laws such as AML. It is to check and stop something like this. I know a lot of ideas are being considered to make crypto a world thing, but this is out of it buddy.

Exactly, not only that, there has been a lot of rumors, scam accusations and etc that was thrown to bitcoin by various people or personalities but bitcoin is still alive. Bitcoin is a very strong technology that can't be tamed easily with anything, bitcoin has its share of advantages and disadvantages because nothing is perfect but bitcoin had helped a lot of people thus it will not be destroyed easily.

You bought out every fiat currency out there sure. Okay. Banks would be like: Okay mate, time to print more so we can suck the assets of this guy. We can just tell that his bought "fiat money" is already out of date and isn't recognized anymore. You bought out every BTC out there okay. Exchanges would be like: Oh, we can't do anything about that. We can't even say that his coins are outdated cause you can consider each coin to be unique, and it is out of date seems to be an impossibility.

Next, Oh look I have 18 BTC and a number 18 on excel. Oh look, I'm rich cause I have 2 18s. Like seriously? It's like comparing while only looking at your own side. Oh look, I hodl my 18BTC after 2 years, I now earned almost $1m dollars. Oh look, I hodl my 18 on excel, it's still worth nothing. A ridiculous argument in all its entirety IMO.

Don't feed the trolls, guys!

This smartass pops up every now and then with his FUD about the 'worthlessness' of Bitcoin. He shits on almost every forum on the Croatian Bitcoin scene (btw, he's banned on almost every one of them) and also on bitcointalk at the Croatian Local Board.
This is most likely his old account: fxsurfer (also banned for spamming, trolling or whatever).

Fun fact: The last time (March, 2019) when he made all his wisecracks, Bitcoin entered the mini-bullrun phase and jumped more than 20%. So maybe this is an indication of something good?

What a shit post!!
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You argument is baseless as it based on an excel sheet. I invested in Bitcoin in 2018 febuary and joined this forum after that. Now use your excel sheet and calculate the profit I have earned after HODLing Bitcoin for two years now.

From where did you come out with this dumb argument. First practically implement it and then calculate.

If you buy all the fiat currency in the world, what stops a bank from illegally printing more fiat to meet a high demand? And this printing could end up devaluing the currency if manipulating the price overwhelms the authority. This can't happen (or easily happen) with real cryptocurrency like Bitcoin.

You probably don't understand Bitcoin yet. It solves alot of problems bedeviling fiat currencies. If I buy a land for two Bitcoin, the seller gets the two Bitcoin and keep it in his wallet. That is way better than handing the money to a bank. Your money don't get devalued, you control the fund, and you enjoy other important features of Bitcoin.
As people continue building more useful things on Bitcoin(hopefully quicker) it will be more useful, and work better than fiat and traditional stocks. Bitcoin can be programmed for many useful purposes. It can be programmed for insurance, real-estate, online marketplace, food reserve and for pretty much "anything".

I can simply go to the crypto exchanges like Binance or Localbitcoins or Paxful and sell of my bitcoins against fiat currencies and do whatever I want with this enormous wealth. Can you do the same with your excel sheet - No!

Here ends all of your questions. My bitcoin are liquid in nature and your excel is not! What else do you want to know?

This is always a topic that worth debate

In fact, every investment is a ponzi scheme, since you always have to find the next one who accept your payment, if you can not, it basically become worthless. Many such schemes (like pension fund and social security fund) do not collapse, simply because government can force people to buy into such scheme forever

Most of the fiat money is backed by government (once the government is replaced by another government, their fiat money will worth zero over night), but have you seen anyone go to government to exchange anything? None. So, the backing is just something that gives people confidence. It is better to say fiat money is backed by confidence, that it will be accepted by other people in the country that the government rules

And where does the confidence of bitcoin come from?  Suppose that its technology is without flaw, then similarly, the confidence comes from  the acceptance by other people in the world. Although this time, it is not by the people ruled by a certain government, but by the people who have confidence in its value

The core question is, what gives peopel more confidence? A government or knowledge and thinking. So far I could say it is still the government that gives people more confidence, but is that a good thing?

You CAN'T have something decentralized but at the same time backed by something. It's an oxymoron. Goddamn it's already 2020 and we're still not done with the ponzi scheme argument.

You don't even need to sell it 100% of the time. If you want to use bitcoin without selling it, then transact with someone willing to receive bitcoin. Also, what's really wrong with selling bitcoin? If we're doing a transaction for instance, and I prefer receiving EUR instead of your USD, you could simply convert your USD to EUR to comply with my terms. The conversion from USD to EUR is pretty much the same with the conversion from BTC to USD.

Shure, we can reduce this post to "Bitcoin is backed by nothing" type of argument and its value is determined by the people who uses it. But that's true for all ponzi-like schems - they are all backed by nothing and - their value is determined by the people who uses them.

Regarding buying and selling with bitcoin. Well, the whole point of this topic is the question how can you benefit from bitcoins without selling them. Selling them is how this scheme operates in the first place. All ponzi-like schems operate by selling their membership stakes to the new investors. So, the question is how can you benefit from bitcois without selling them to a new investor?

Let's just reduce this post to "Bitcoin is backed by nothing" type of argument and its value is determined by the people who uses it. This has been raised plenty of times before and yet bitcoin is still alive. Never destroyed.

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The banks can simply print as many fiat as they can and they will never run out of it. They can also declare that those fiats you bought to be out of circulation and just devalue them.

...but no one else can prove ownership other than the owner of the wallet keys/seed containing those bitcoins by signing a message. You can have as many people with spreadsheets and the same number but can they prove that they really have it? NO.

Can you buy something and send bitcoin as payment just by using a spreadsheet? NO.

I see you decided to take your rant from the Croatian local forum and move it here as well.
The difference between your Excel Bitcoins and mine is that I just came back from a holiday that was around 50% financed by Bitcoins. Your excel Bitcoin can't do that.
Enjoy your stay at Bitcointalk, it seems it has become your favorite place in the world.

Let's suppose that you bought all the stocks in the world and you decide not to sell them. How can you benefit from them? Well you can liquidate them and get an enormous wealth in the form of land, buildings, vehicles, machines, equipment and other property of the companies that issued these stocks.

Let's suppose that you bought all the fiat currencies in the world and you decide not to sell them. How can you benefit from them? Well you can wait a couple of months and then visit the banks that issued them to claim an enormous wealth in the form of land, buildings, vehicles, machines, equipment and other property that the banks seized from the borrowers. Namely, given that you bought all the fiat currencies, borrowers are unable to get the money for their loan repayments, and unpaid loans, lead to seizure of the property that was pledged as a collateral. Given that the money issued by the banks is the liability of the banks, you as its holder have the claim on the bank's property. Now, why you have such a claim in the first place? It's because the banks created money out of thin air, which means that on its own, money is worthless. It is just numbers in the bank accounts or on the banknotes. So when the borrowers used these numbers to get goods or services from the market participants it is these participants who actually provided valuable property or work to the borrowers. Given that borrowers defaulted of their loans, they didn't return the equivalent of these property or work back the market participants through trades that would get them money for the loan repayments. That's why the market participants have the claims on the property that the banks sized from the borrowers. Since you bought all the money from these participants you became the owner of these claims.

Finally, let's suppose that you bought all the bitcoins in the world and you decide not to sell them. How can you benefit from them? To put it another way. After said purchase, all you have is a number in a computer memory - 18.232.575 (bitcoins currently in circulation). Let's suppose that I open my Excel spreadsheet and put the same number into it -> 18.232.575. Now we both have equal records in a computer memory. Question: what can you do with your record that I cannot do with mine? Can you liquidate it like stock are liquidated and get the equity of some company? No. Me neither. Can you transfer it to another memory location. Yes. Me either. Can you take it to some institution or middleman such as bank and claim its property? No. Me neither. Can you observe it? Yes. Me either. Can you eat it? No. Me neither. Can you enjoy its numerical form? Yes. Me either. Can you drive it? No. Me neither. Can you take picture of it? Yes. Me either. So simply put, there is nothing what you can do with your record that I cannot do with mine.

Meaning, all the bitcoins in the world are woth the same as a number that one puts into his/her Excel spreadsheet. And you can benefit from it only if you fool someone to trade their valuable property, work or fiat currencies for this number. To put it differently. The same as in all ponzi-like schemes, no actual value exists behind bitcoin, and the only way one can get actual value, is from funds brought by new investors. And that's Bitcoin in a nutshell - good old Ponzi scheme dressed up in a new, digital, uniform.