Topic: Did pirate default? IRC Chat Log inside!! (Read 7569 times)

He did not buy any of his own debt.  That makes no sense if you have no intention of paying.   Some have speculated that he SOLD debt after the 17'th through sockpuppet accounts but I doubt that really happened. 

So before the 'close' he may have bought a lot of PPT debt. OK. But that does not equate to newly-minted debt (debt issued after the close), which is the entire scope of discussion.


I explicitly qualified my scenario as being one in which he has a desire to redeem his debt. In this scenario, it most certainly makes sense for him to buy heavily discounted Pirate debt. If he can absolve 1BTC of obligation by buying it on the open market for 0.5BTC, then that is 0.5BTC less he needs to pony up to settle. If he leaves it on the market, he would need to spend the full 1BTC to settle the debt.

But this is obvious, and I can tell you are a smart guy. Are you just not reading what I am writing, or are you trolling me?

Lastly, I disavow any knowledge of the last paragraph you quoted, as it was not a quote of my writings.

Excluding some explanations and demanding evidence against pirate is what got people into this mess in the first place. When are you going to learn?

Ahh, I see what you're missing. If Pirate buys a PPT for 10,000 bitcoins, those 10,000 bitcoins pass right through to him. That's the whole point of a PPT. So long as he doesn't withdraw, the PPT will not withdraw, so that money will just earn interest as a number.

When it compounds to, say, 13,000 BTC, he can turn around and sells it for 6,000 bitcoins or so, he just made 6,000 bitcoins for nothing. Plus, while that 10,000-13,000 bitcoin PPT was outstanding, it makes him look bigger and helps build a market for PPTs.

It makes no sense for him to buy passthrough shares at distressed rates. He knows his debt is worthless, so why should he pay good money for it that comes out of his pocket?

I honestly don't think it will have any significant affect on the price of bitcoins, though other people disagree. It's certainly possible he thinks it will. Though in that case, I'm not sure why he wouldn't have been liquidating for the past month or so.

No, I don't think payb.tc is in on it. He could be though, it's a non-zero risk that should be taken into account in all this.

A quick search did turn up a couple people just buying direct Pirate debt.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1139171
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/buy-bitcoinmaxhashkingdirect-account-at-15-104068

I did not realize Bitcoinmax ran outside the 'registered' securities system of GLBSE. Mea culpa - this is a third category. Still, seems no mechanism in this category for Pirate to continue to issue new debt.

This is not direct Pirate debt, right? Bitcoinmax is a separate entity, correct? By 'passthorugh' or any other name. Accordingly, such debt cannot be newly-minted by Pirate after the close.

Unless Bitcoinmax is in on it. Is that your assertion?

Bitcoinmax is the type account being traded outside of the GLBSE.

Interesting, so essentially, an announcement that BTCST is closing instead of just not paying interest all of a sudden, and then further stalling, the BTC price remains higher, thus enabling additional time to liquidate?

Or more illustrative - does anyone have any evidence of any direct Pirate debt being sold at discount? Passthroughs don't count. Anyone? Anywhere?

OK, I concede that this _could_ happen. I don't think it _would_, but that's another story. Any such buyer would be severely at risk.

Here's the problem with your scenario: even if we presume that Pirate is on the up-and-up, he would have no obligation whatsoever to transfer an account from one owner to another.

Try walking into your buddy's bank, with a piece of paper (signed by your buddy) that indicates that you have purchased his savings account at that bank. The bank would rightly laugh you out the door.

There may be some procedures the bank has allowing one party to transfer their savings account to another party (probably not, but...). But you'd have no expectation of this working without first coordinating the conditions and requirements with that bank - ahead of the transaction.

If you've got an open channel to Pirate that allows you to work out the details of such a transfer, that would be one thing. But somehow, I doubt you do.

Again - anyone - please point to a specific instance of Pirate issuing additional newly-minted debt since the 'closing' announcement.

jbreher,

I think you are way overthinking this and missing the obvious.

Say I tell you I want to sell my account (I don't have one but lets pretend I do).  You are suspicious so I let you watch me login to my account through teamviewer.  You see Pirate owes "me" 1000 BTC.  So you buy it from me for 500 BTC.

Now there are two scam possibilities:
a) I am merely a socket puppet for Pirate.  The account is just one made up 10 seconds ago.  It looks legit because it is suppose to look legit.  Pirate knows he won't pay so you bought a worthless account for 500 BTC.  Net profit to Pirate 500 BTC.

b) I am not a sockpuppet but working for Pirate.  He promised me 20% of the value of any fake account I sell to suckers like you.  Same as before but you pay  me 500 BTC, I pay Pirate 400 BTC and keep 100 BTC.  Once again the account you bought is worthless.

If someone right now offers to sell you an account how do you know it isn't really just Pirate or someone working for him?  You don't.

Now for the record I don't think Pirate is that smart.  I don't think he is running this reverse con but he could be.  That is the whole point in a situation like this you have no idea who you are buying from (directly or indirectly) so it may not be a fair sale.  The person selling it to you might already know it is worthless.  Not risky as in Pirate might not pay but absolutely completely worthless as in there is no plan to every pay you a bitcent and that was decided before you ever bought it.

Still not buying it.

Union Carbide owes me money. I can show you a scan of a letter acknowledging the debt. Wanna buy this debt from me for one penny on the dollar?

While Union Carbide doesn't actually owe me squat, this works for reason of example. The relevant point is that there is no way the potential buyer has to check on the veracity of the claim of the potential seller. Even if the debt was real, it could not be verified to be real without the assistance of Pirate hisownbadself.

It's not like it is one of the passthroughs, which have an externally-verifiable chain of custody.

Hmm. To my knowledge, there are two ways Pirate debt entered the market. The first is by depositing directly with Pirate. The second is by investing in a GLBSE-listed PPT, the initial transaction of which was subsequently deposited directly with Pirate by the security issuer. Am I missing anything?

If the debt you speculate that Pirate might be selling is that of the latter form, he would have to have bought it already on the open market. It is already in the marketplace. While I don't know all the intricacies of GLBSE, surely Pirate cannot now be issuing brand new debt through this mechanism, correct? Bypassing all the security issuers?

Which leaves us debt issued directly by Pirate to a creditor. Are you seriously suggesting that people are even today depositing additional coin directly with Pirate? (Even if they did, he stated when he closed up shop that all additional deposits would be immediately returned. Not that I'd want to test the veracity of that claim with my own coins, but he did say it.) More importantly, _who_ would deposit? Point to a transaction?


Yes, if he wanted to settle his debt, it wold be prudent for him to purchase as much discounted Pirate debt as he could. But the topic of this discussion is him selling additional newly-minted debt. I still don't see that being tenable.

Show screenshots of their BS&T or allow a view only Teamviewer session of them logging into the account showing the balance?

Does anybody have any evidence to suggest that pirate offered any shares on GLBSE? Under his name or any other? Please point.

People invested with Pirate directly, not through the GLBSE, right?

The various pass-throughs may be listed on the GLBSE, but those were offered through people other than Pirate, right?

I could perhaps envision that he may have purchased shares through some of the various pass-throughs. But these would have been purchased at market rates. Now to be sold at distressed rates. Not much of a business plan, if you ask me.

Sure, he could _buy_ passthrough shares at distressed rates. If he had an intention of paying up, this could save him a lot of money in the long haul. Bu that is not the topic of this sub-discussion.

ETA: "...sell them at a discount...". What motivation would he have to do that?

Either I am being _really_dense toady (always a possibility), or you've not thought this through very well. While I will reply in more depth to JoelKatz's post below I do offer the following.

Why would anyone buy debt -- debt aready in default, and highly likely to remain bad debt in perpetuity - from some random sock _who_has_no_way_to_prove_they_own_that_debt_?

What is random sock going to do when asked to show that they own that debt? Tell prospective buyer to talk to pirate for verification?

It doesn't matter when it was created. So long as he holds it and isn't selling it yet, it's not in the marketplace. He can benefit from it by selling it. The "existing owners of Pirate debt" may well be Pirate.

There are many reasons Pirate may have been acquiring his own debt. It costs him basically nothing. The money just flows back to him. He never pays any interest on debt he holds because he never withdraws. It helps to push up the price of his pass throughs. More demand suggests the market is more confident than it really is and more shares outstanding make the passthrough operators bigger Pirate enthusiasts. And, if he knew he was going to default by cutting off withdrawals abruptly and then stall on repayments, he'd know he could sell them for extra money.

If I were running a Ponzi scheme and had not one shred of honesty and only cared about personal profits, I'd do these things. So if Pirate isn't, he's either more honest or less clever.

I don't think there's any good way we can tell whether this is actually happening or not though.

38...and I would gladly come looking for you. I don't hide, as I don't have a reason. You are welcome to meet me face to face and see if your opinion changes.

Another misconception is that everyone here is and was a scrawny little geek first and loudmouth second. Some of us with the biggest mouths have had the most practice backing up what comes out of them and if I was SO unsuccessful, I wouldn't call you out for being an anon little pussy.

Anytime you are interested in having your teeth fed to you, feel free to look me up. I am in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. You want more info ? just ask.

Wow! What an expert on all things internetish. Good to know that the internet, which was conceived, developed, implemented, and opened up to the public at large by 40+ year old dudes couldn't possibly be fathomed by those selfsame oldsters. Not with you hip young geniuses around, no siree. With you punks on the case nothing bad would ever happen.

Although, like a true child, you have gone off making ignorant statements without any grounding in truth and added exactly nothing to the discussion at hand. Get back on topic you ignorant little shithead- that being the question of pirate's default yea or nay? Do you have any cogent thoughts on something relevant or do you want to stay stuck in your little homoerotic fantasy world talking about anal rape?

He will be the first one on the forum talking about how badass he is. While bending over and taking it in the ass while never doing shit. Loudest mouths are the last people to worry about. Dude is some 40+ year old who thinks internet attention is worth 25K+ Should scam him some more with confidence knowing he won't do shit but post about it.

It is fairly common in ponzi scams to create false accounts to give the illusion of popularity. Other people will be more inclined to invest if they think other people believe it works. This costs him nothing or very little, because the money goes back to himself, and they will never be claimed while the scam runs. If they are in the form of extra shares on GLBSE it would be trivial to sell them at a discount now, and somewhat more work if he's sent them through one of the pass-throughs.

better is buy Corvette ZR1

Step 1: Open your database, create a new account with a BTC12345.67 balance.
Step 2: Log in to newly created or already existing sock puppet account on bitcointalk.org
Step 3: Offer to sell BTC12345.67 for BTC2468.
Step 4: Sell BTC2468 on Mt Gox.
Step 5: Repeat x5
Step 6: Buy Corvette Z06

Nope. I'm still not getting it.

For Pirate to continue to profit by selling his debt, it needs to be newly-created debt. The debt of which I am aware that is still selling is pre-existing debt. It's debt he issued some days/weeks/months ago. As it is already in the marketplace, he can benefit from it no further. It is not Pirate that is selling this debt, it is existing owners of Pirate debt.

Perhaps I have just missed notice of a sale of newly-minted Pirate debt. Can you point me to a specific transaction?

I am actually considering a Charity for my portion of the 'investment'.

$25k+ worth of Bitcoin can buy a shit-load of teddy bears for the next Bandido's Toy Run. All they have to do is stop by and collect the 'donation'.

I love Texas....

Joel +1.

Sounds to me like Bitlane will be one of the first to try that 5$ wrench on Bitcoin security

30-36 million DKK, 5-6 million USD or 10 very nice houses. Insane stuff.

Exactly!  I'm glad you picked up on it.

Hilarious coming from you.

Obligatory XKCD xpost. 



Sorry it is one of my favorite comics and the author supports hot linking. 

Pirate debt is still selling for more than 0. Pirate can create as much Pirate debt as he wants at a cost of zero to him. Until Pirate debt is completely worthless, Pirate has no incentive to stop selling his own debt.

Say I decided to burn my reputation to make as much money as possible. I would ask for loans, maybe pay some people back to build my reputation, and so on. When would I quit? I would quit as soon as my debt was worthless. So long as I could continue to trade IOUs for bitcoins, why would I stop? Pirate IOUs still trade for bitcoins, so why would he stop?

He can't flood the market by trying to sell all his debt at once. So he needs a week or two to sell off as much as he can to as many new suckers as he can find.

^QFT

Although personally I'm waiting another week to break out my "I told you so" mallet.

FUN FACT#69

Ex-Husbands & families, when armed with the right ammunition can be quite ruthless, when there are previously sired yet absent children involved ....and the chance of a custody battle comes into play.

that's all for now,
bitlane.

I had seen those family pictures out on the internet while doing some due dilligence prior to investing a few coins with pirate. I'd also ordered an Intellius background report and the names and relationships seemed to check out. The fact that he was living in the open and started hiding the family albums only now would suggest that he probably was not intentionally running a Ponzi, but more likely he screwed up with whatever he was doing and is now unable to return the coins or pay the interest.

I must be slow today. I'm not following this at all. What new debt can he be selling? Do you see others lining up to lend him more? Are there new Pirate securities being issued? What new money is rolling in?

Most pertinent comment ever on the pirate situation, IMHO.

Fact is, they were accounts on contract (week payments with the option to withdraw), he's in technical default whether or not people get the full amounts or not. I really wish nanotube would comment on this, because the thing I'm concerned about is that Vandrioy isn't going to get the credit he's due for the bet as it was made.

Why does it matter that Vandrioy gets credit? So something like this NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN. You guys really should be ashamed for giving $10k plus in USD to someone that cannot articulate their business plan.

lol.

If anything should be keeping Pirate up at night it's not the people talking here or even our local "internet detective". It would be that some of the more unsavory criminal parts of the bitcoin universe or their even more dangerous drug supplying backers might find out that there might be someone in Texas who may soon have his hands on US$5M worth of liquid and difficult to trace internet currency. As someone already posted the XKCD comic in one of these threads, a $5 wrench could be a pretty effective password cracker for whatever encryption Pirate might use.

Perhaps he should spend more time trying to repay and re-earn the Bitcoins he owes, rather than attempting to NOW cover his tracks by removing personal and family information from the Internet that we have all had for 7 months now anyways.

I bet My Pirate Picture/Scrapbook is better than yours

Strange how there's a bunch of new members who have been lurking for awhile that are showing up now to say that people should just be happy if Pirate pays back at all, and should forget that whole interest thing.

Phew, I'm glad that's settled.  I guess that means we keep posting the same stuff over and over now.

I was just about to thank Joel for posting more often lately. You have certainly summed it up much better than I would have, Lou.
Thanks to you both.

cheers

Joel hits it dead on the money.

I have resisted the temptation to break out the "Gee, everybody told you so..." bat and beat the community over the head with it thus far on this one... but really? Does anybody think that there is going to be one thin dime forthcoming on this latest chapter of "How I Spent My Summer and My Fortune Getting Hosed On The Internet"?

Wait for it kids, in about 46 hours there will be a huge announcement that all of his work and effort has gone to naught and the entire repayment sum was hacked. It's the obvious play after the stalling runs out. There will be some vague little tease about what he was doing with the money (re-inventing the internal combustion engine to run on water, or brokering AIDS vaccines) and why it was the single most profitable concept in the entire history of the human race, and only one glorious little hacker was ever able to figure it out. But he needed a little time to spend with his family, and hadn't really slept for 6 months, so the idea doesn't work now, he got hacked and gosh, I'm sorry, but all the funds are gone. And if you will please check the very fine print on page 397, paragraph B, subsection 134R, you will all learn that since this was a SPECULATIVE investment, there was never any guarantee that you would ever get anything back. Too bad, so sad, but it's all over now.

And the diligent little army of love slaves will rush to his defense and tell us how he really does deserve a chance to help raise his poor kids, and sleep really isn't over-rated, but vital for boy geniuses, so it's okay. And besides, he promises to work it off and make good to the three people who stood by him.

And the only reason he won't pay off the bet is because he doesn't trust that the donation will be made to the right charity, so that will be null and void too.

FFS, people, read your scripts. We've seen this whole act before, and chances are pretty damn good that some other brilliant scammer will be around shortly to fleece the next round of the willing and ignorant.

And for the TL/DR crown... YES, HE DEFAULTED. YOU ARE SCREWED.

I've said all along..Why not keep paying the interest? at least you would have stopped the bleeding a long time ago. Now, he owes A LOT more. If he paid the weekly interest, i can guarantee you investors and the anti pirate camp wouldn't be saying much...

He had a system down for paying interest. i heard that it was paid out like clock work.. So, why stop that? If it is legit, (*cough*cough) then he would have kept paying and no one would really care when he paid the principle...

Oh- but he does pay 11 or so small accounts, that just doesn't make any sense..

There are none. That's just making unverifiable excuses. You're supposed to imagine that because you don't really know what he's doing, there might be circumstances that prevent him from paying people back immediately. He's hoping you'll make up the excuses you find most plausible, that way he doesn't have to figure out an excuse everyone believes.

It means he's asking for the maximum stall time you're willing to give him. The idea is to induce people to wait as long as they would be willing to wait for a full payback by promising that he'll pay everything at once. It's a classic tactic.

Say you owe me $1,000 and $50 is due now. I'm mad at you. You say, "I'll pay you the $50 next week". I still break your legs. But you say, "I'll pay you *all* of it next week". Maybe now I'm willing to wait another week. While they both stall for another week, the greater promise makes the stall more tolerable.

Classic stalling tactic -- to get more time when you don't plan to deliver at all, increase your promise to the maximum and thus earn the maximum stalling time anyone is willing to give you.

He's still making money. Why would he run when money is still rolling in? So long as people continue to believe that he might pay, his debt is still worth something, so he can keep selling it. He can produce an unlimited amount of debt, so he's not going to stop until his debt has zero value.

I have been watching this effort for some time.  It may say newb next to my title but I have been lurking.  I have funds tied up in this and know others that do as well.  I also knew that getting these rates was a bit unreal and figured that I was getting in early enough to be able to get out before it fell apart, wrong.  

All of that said if Pirate is really trying to return all of the principle funding and with some or all of the interest I would consider him a hero compared to other financial wizards in the normal/real finance world.  I would say that if he pulls that off he should consider a new more stable venture once the dust has settled and contact those who did invest with him to invest again in the new venture.  

If all he returns is the principle to all the investors then we really should be adults and understand that mistakes/shit happens and that we should be lucky to get that back.  I know allot of people who did not get that when the housing market took them for a ride.  

If he does run with all of the coins and we get nothing then he goes down with all of the others in history under the term Ponzi artist/crook and all we get is a lesson learned.  

I know I needed my funds back to help pay for my investments in this bitcoin world but I will survive, I know others who has significant amounts and all in all it is just a sad thing if he runs.  If he does not and I would say his actions as of late may have me thinking he might not then wow to him.  If he does run with the actions he has done in the last 30 to 60 days like meeting people, making posts after the fact and other communications then he is nuts.

I wish all of us luck who are in this ride and see you on the other side whenever that it.

I'm going to post a text version of what Pirate said.

 

The answer's here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/how-could-pirate-fuck-your-brains-so-well-that-even-now-many-believe-in-him-103145

Obviously when you owe $5 mill USD at 3400% the best possible thing to do is wait 2 weeks (extra $1 mil USD owed) and pay everyone at once instead of paying it down from day 1.

(I think Pirate scamming skills have grown weak.  Nothing in his post made any sense whatsoever. Then again his shills and idiot victims bought every dubious half truth or nonsensical response in the past so he likely has grown use to the bar being set low).

If that isnt unambiguous enough nanotube has the contract for the Vandroiy bet waiting in the wings.

It should be in one shot from what I gather from the chat.

Quoting D&T from an another thread:

The original story was that he was winding up his investment scheme as it was beginning to be too big and complex to handle.  Fair enough.  He should have all the money on hand to return, unless he's placed it himself in another highly speculative investment that's not going right.  His declaration of closing BTCST suggested it was of his choosing, not that he was forced to.

It seems to me pirate is now saying the market or conditions have turned against him, and now he's blaming personal attacks too.  Makes me wonder how long before he declares 'I would have returned all the money long ago, but it's your fault I haven't because so many people said I'm running a ponzi scam'.

Pirate defaulted 10 days ago ...

The accounts were demand account meaning they could be drawn on demand.  Last Friday Pirate violated the terms of his own contract.  If that isn't enough he made an explicit promise to bitlane that he would be repaid on Monday a promise he failed to keep.  So Friday or Monday is when the default occurred.  Everything since them has just been the moving of goal posts.

Goat would tell you to look up "default" in the dictionary

It's mIRC

just curious what irc client is that?

Much discussion in other threads.

@~5:30PM PST:



Discuss.

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Pre-emptive Jennifer Lawrence: