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Topic: Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin? (Read 810 times)

Betwrong

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Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on August 18, 2019, 10:55:06 AM

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Quote from: Betwrong on August 18, 2019, 08:35:13 AM

The whole point of Bitcoin is to be a payment system beyond governments' control. I would be very surprised if Satoshi was spending his precious time contemplating on how governments could profit from it.

Who knows. I've always thought Satoshi isn't one man, but a government operation. That's my tin foil hat talking, which I don't usually wear. I've always thought it was extremely convenient that bitcoin was created right at the time when it looked like banks might fail completely due to the housing crisis of 2008.

I think if it were a government operation we would know about it by now. Information of such a significance leaks like an old faucet these days. Another reason why I think governments weren't behind it, is that they have never been caught in a big hurry for supporting Bitcoin. But, of course, no one can be 100% sure of anything, so we must always keep our tinfoil hats within the reach. )

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Quote from: Pipdips on August 19, 2019, 07:44:22 AM

Did Satoshi coin the term cryptocurrency?

Satoshi certainly used the term, but I don't think it's definitely known who first coined it. I did read this thread recently: Who coined the word "cryptocurrency" ...

Quote from: Pipdips on August 19, 2019, 07:44:22 AM

Bitcoin is not "property". It is definitely a form of money or currency for purchasing goods and services.

I agree with you, but again, that's irrelevant unfortunately. What we consider bitcoin to be, even if we are actively using it as a currency (which I do almost daily), doesn't matter when it comes to taxation. If your country's tax authority class it as a property or asset, then they will tax it as such.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 18, 2019, 01:51:18 PM

currency laws are generally inapplicable to bitcoin since most countries consider it property rather than currency.

Then why is it named "crypto currency"? Did Satoshi coin the term cryptocurrency?

Bitcoin is not "property". It is definitely a form of money or currency for purchasing goods and services.

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Quote from: Pipdips on August 06, 2019, 02:44:58 PM

Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

I think that he didn't.
The reason for that is that taxation varies around countries so it wasn't a concern of him. Also, Bitcoin is a decentralized ecosystem so not any global regulation such as taxation can be applied to it.

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Quote from: Betwrong on August 18, 2019, 08:35:13 AM

The whole point of Bitcoin is to be a payment system beyond governments' control. I would be very surprised if Satoshi was spending his precious time contemplating on how governments could profit from it.

If he was really known, I am sure that he would have explained to government how he has factored them in, but I think the thing is left for them now to figure out. One of the reasons why government is still about skeptical about cryptocurrency of bitcoin is that they think that the system will be against them in the aspect of tax because they way that people have portrayed it, like a system they will use to hide from government meanwhile that is not the case.

Satoshi is human and I am sure he understands how government is being run, so he would really not do anything that much to affect government, just the banking sector that I am sure that he is after, because this system would affect more of the banking sectors.

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Quote from: Pipdips on August 18, 2019, 08:22:56 AM

However, nobody needs it because the most glaringly tricky part of taxing Bitcoin is that it is not related to any one country. It is a global "currency" or asset. See what I mean? Thus, Bitcoin is not ready to be taxed!

Which country a currency is related to, or even not being related to a country at all, is irrelevant as far as most countries' tax laws go. Even if you are paid entirely in a foreign currency, you will generally be expected to convert your earnings to the relevant amount of your national currency, and pay taxes on that amount. Taking the IRS in the US as an example:

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on August 18, 2019, 10:55:06 AM

I've always thought it was extremely convenient that bitcoin was created right at the time when it looked like banks might fail completely due to the housing crisis of 2008.

I have never considered this before. I have always pictured Satoshi as one individual, and definitely not related to any government, but it's an interesting thought experiment nonetheless.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 06, 2019, 03:58:10 PM

You can have a look through all of Satoshi's writings here: https://satoshi.nakamotoinstitute.org/
And you can also have a look through all of his forum posts here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/satoshi-3

Awesome links, I'll have to browse through them when I get a chance. Honestly, I think I've only read a handful of satoshi's posts on bitcointalk and that's about it.

He needn't have written anything about taxation, because he couldn't have known how governments would treat bitcoin, i.e., as an investment or as a currency. It's a global thing, after all and each government can treat it however they like and the tax consequences would be different all throughout the world. Satoshi did a momentous thing in creating bitcoin, and that's enough. Why would he bother to speculate about tax? I would imagine he'd thought about it, and he probably considered the probability of tax evasion, but hey....the man created bitcoin.

Quote from: Betwrong on August 18, 2019, 08:35:13 AM

The whole point of Bitcoin is to be a payment system beyond governments' control. I would be very surprised if Satoshi was spending his precious time contemplating on how governments could profit from it.

Who knows. I've always thought Satoshi isn't one man, but a government operation. That's my tin foil hat talking, which I don't usually wear. I've always thought it was extremely convenient that bitcoin was created right at the time when it looked like banks might fail completely due to the housing crisis of 2008.

Betwrong

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The whole point of Bitcoin is to be a payment system beyond governments' control. I would be very surprised if Satoshi was spending his precious time contemplating on how governments could profit from it.

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Quote from: guoyu78 on August 18, 2019, 04:30:45 AM

I do not support you, you can only fight against over taxing, not the taxing entirely, you want to leave in a country and not get taxed, then how do you want the government to continue to make your environment beautiful, how do you want them to establish those free education schools, so tell me exactly why you are against tax, it seem to you that you are tired of seeing those beautiful development surrounding you and you feel like going back to the village.

Yeah, I am just stirring up the pot, really, clearly I do not have much tax knowledge. However, nobody needs it because the most glaringly tricky part of taxing Bitcoin is that it is not related to any one country. It is a global "currency" or asset. See what I mean? Thus, Bitcoin is not ready to be taxed!

If all currencies around the world were eliminated and then all we had was Bitcoin, then, tax away...

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Quote from: Pipdips on August 17, 2019, 09:12:16 AM

Satoshi never stated any position about taxes at all. The fight is up to us, it is the People versus the Tax Man.

We the people have two choices: we can either get our acts together and stand together as the majority, or we can definitely count on having the imposing presence of the Tax Man and Wall Street outsmarting us.

It is time for the training wheels to come off and ordinary people need to unite and realize that taxes are an illusion. Satoshi's vision lives on strong, but Satoshi is probably out of the picture today and can no longer hold our hands.

I do not support you, you can only fight against over taxing, not the taxing entirely, you want to leave in a country and not get taxed, then how do you want the government to continue to make your environment beautiful, how do you want them to establish those free education schools, so tell me exactly why you are against tax, it seem to you that you are tired of seeing those beautiful development surrounding you and you feel like going back to the village.

If you are not comfortable with tax, then you have so many countries that are lawless and not developing to go to, those ones would never bother you for tax, but the hardship you will suffer there is the one that will teach you a lesson. Before you call for scrapping of tax, you have to first understand exactly what tax stands for and what it does.

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Quote from: Pipdips on August 17, 2019, 09:12:16 AM

Quote from: raidarksword on August 17, 2019, 08:53:25 AM

I think not because bitcoin was created for the ideology of having free from government and banks system not even from taxes as you mentioned in order to be free from middlemen that could make a lesser fee on every transactions unlike what banks implemented long ago before bitcoin even existed.

Satoshi never stated any position about taxes at all. The fight is up to us, it is the People versus the Tax Man.

We the people have two choices: we can either get our acts together and stand together as the majority, or we can definitely count on having the imposing presence of the Tax Man and Wall Street outsmarting us.

It is time for the training wheels to come off and ordinary people need to unite and realize that taxes are an illusion. Satoshi's vision lives on strong, but Satoshi is probably out of the picture today and can no longer hold our hands.

Each country's tax regulations are different, making it difficult for Satoshi to determine taxes that can be adopted by all countries. therefore the tax is determined by the government of each country. sathosi only focuses on bitcoin as an alternative payment tool

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Quote from: raidarksword on August 17, 2019, 08:53:25 AM

I think not because bitcoin was created for the ideology of having free from government and banks system not even from taxes as you mentioned in order to be free from middlemen that could make a lesser fee on every transactions unlike what banks implemented long ago before bitcoin even existed.

Satoshi never stated any position about taxes at all. The fight is up to us, it is the People versus the Tax Man.

We the people have two choices: we can either get our acts together and stand together as the majority, or we can definitely count on having the imposing presence of the Tax Man and Wall Street outsmarting us.

It is time for the training wheels to come off and ordinary people need to unite and realize that taxes are an illusion. Satoshi's vision lives on strong, but Satoshi is probably out of the picture today and can no longer hold our hands.

raidarksword

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I think not because bitcoin was created for the ideology of having free from government and banks system not even from taxes as you mentioned in order to be free from middlemen that could make a lesser fee on every transactions unlike what banks implemented long ago before bitcoin even existed.

pawanjain

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He would have definitely thought of tax when creating bitcoin since he had created bitcoin during the days of financial crisis in the stock market.
Not that he wanted to tax bitcoin but he had to eliminate the middle man interventing in his transactions and eliminating tax was just an additional benefit from his creation of bitcoin.
Satoshi was a smart guy. He had created bitcoin consciously and would have definitely kept tax in mind while doing so.

Pipdips

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Quote from: BitHodler on August 15, 2019, 03:30:02 PM

Quote from: fullhdpixel on August 15, 2019, 12:20:12 AM

I believe that even as a good citizen of our country, we should not evade tax even with the system of cryptocurrency because that is what will guard the future of our children, some of our children has gone to free school, courtesy of these taxes being paid.

It's not so much that most people purposely evade taxation, but because of Bitcoin they have a better understanding of economics, which makes them rethink the whole purpose of taxation.

I'm all for people paying tax over their profits, which I do as well, but some tax laws reek of legal theft. An example is being taxed over wealth that isn't being utilized. I can't think of anything that justifies the government to do this.

I can perfectly understand that thanks to Bitcoin people's holdings can easily be stored outside the baking system and therefore they choose to not declare anything of their long term hodl stack.

I fully agree with what is being said. The foundation of my trading work is to play by the rules and pay taxes but at the same time, with Bitcoin, I believe something new is at hand and paying taxes for Bitcoin 'ownership' is something I have decided to think twice about, and reconsider. I think Bitcoin is not real property like in real estate, and neither is it an idea or a unique concept like with intellectual property. Also Bitcoin owners are not share holders like with stocks.

Bitcoin is something different that is yet to be defined...

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Quote from: fullhdpixel on August 15, 2019, 12:20:12 AM

I believe that even as a good citizen of our country, we should not evade tax even with the system of cryptocurrency because that is what will guard the future of our children, some of our children has gone to free school, courtesy of these taxes being paid.

It's not so much that most people purposely evade taxation, but because of Bitcoin they have a better understanding of economics, which makes them rethink the whole purpose of taxation.

I'm all for people paying tax over their profits, which I do as well, but some tax laws reek of legal theft. An example is being taxed over wealth that isn't being utilized. I can't think of anything that justifies the government to do this.

I can perfectly understand that thanks to Bitcoin people's holdings can easily be stored outside the baking system and therefore they choose to not declare anything of their long term hodl stack.

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Quote from: Lawrenzoo on August 13, 2019, 11:01:48 AM

Quote from: Pipdips on August 06, 2019, 02:44:58 PM

Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

So what is it exactly that you are insinuating, that bitcoin users should never be taxed?

This topic is just a discussion about the taxation of Bitcoin.

The way I see it is that the main function and service of governments is to tax people. It is an interesting arrangement they have constructed. The government has the people paying for them to build more laws and enforce more laws for taxing people and taking their money. Then they employ people to keep taxing and building more tax laws. Taxation is mostly against the people paying for it all, but the people do not realize it. It is like a giant magic act, like pulling a rabbit out of a hat.

The only service that the government offers is to tax people and they also work to enact more laws for justifying more new taxes. That is what they are doing with Bitcoin...

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Quote from: lixer on August 13, 2019, 12:17:10 PM

I think taxing of bitcoin is a new topic and I do not like the idea that we are stuck with what Satoshi's vision was, I can totally understand it for the first few years but he is no longer part of the project anymore and to be honest people decide the path bitcoin is taking and not satoshi anymore.

We do not have ethereum and vitalik type of connection which is honestly good, if vitalik comes out tomorrow and says he is no longer part of ethereum team and doesn't like it anymore then ethereum price will fall like crazy, bitcoin doesn't have that central figure that could ruin it in one day. So when moving to segwit for example we did it collectively and not just miners but exchanges and all other places using segwit address' as well.

Taxing is another issue we can handle collectively and not by some individual saying anything about it.

That would never be possible, because if you look at what the development of a country relies on, is it not strictly on taxes? The best way to fight cryptocurrency off the market is to make it fight tax. Government could still support cryptocurrency even if it will affect banks, but if it has to do with stopping the government from being able to get the one that really concerns them, then you should be ready to say a very big buy to crypto because the ban that will be placed on it will be bigger than the whole world lol.

I believe that even as a good citizen of our country, we should not evade tax even with the system of cryptocurrency because that is what will guard the future of our children, some of our children has gone to free school, courtesy of these taxes being paid.

lixer

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I think taxing of bitcoin is a new topic and I do not like the idea that we are stuck with what Satoshi's vision was, I can totally understand it for the first few years but he is no longer part of the project anymore and to be honest people decide the path bitcoin is taking and not satoshi anymore.

We do not have ethereum and vitalik type of connection which is honestly good, if vitalik comes out tomorrow and says he is no longer part of ethereum team and doesn't like it anymore then ethereum price will fall like crazy, bitcoin doesn't have that central figure that could ruin it in one day. So when moving to segwit for example we did it collectively and not just miners but exchanges and all other places using segwit address' as well.

Taxing is another issue we can handle collectively and not by some individual saying anything about it.

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Quote from: Pipdips on August 06, 2019, 02:44:58 PM

Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

So what is it exactly that you are insinuating, that bitcoin users should never be taxed?

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Quote from: BTCbengi on August 11, 2019, 04:57:49 PM

I think he doesn't want tax with Bitcoin at all. Initially he created it to help us solve a lot of taxes from government and local agencies out of our assets and our finances. However, tax is an indispensable thing for every country to operate stably and well. As for bItcoin, fees from transactions can be viewed as tax, which helps both the system and transactions work stably and smoothly.

If you check whatever communication made by Satoshi during 2009-10, it is clear that he intended Bitcoin to act as a currency, and not as an investment asset. He hoped that in future Bitcoin will be accepted as a global currency and used by billions of people. But he probably didn't predicted that Bitcoin will be used more as an investment asset, and less as a currency. Now this complicates the whole thing. Currencies are not subjected to capital gains tax. If you do forex trading, a different type of tax is applied. So my guess is that Satoshi never thought about the taxation part, since he never thought that Bitcoin will become an investment asset.

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Quote from: fiulpro on August 11, 2019, 12:50:24 PM

The fact that he made something to fight off the government and to actually handle our things on our own , not without anyone else intervening , to be our own banks and to decrease the influence of the market regarding the big whales .
This is somehow against what a government could have wanted thus I think he never said anything about the taxation of bitcoins.
But taxation is actually good because it is considered a digital asset .. by the government.

Yes.Satoshi created bitcoin to get away from government interruption so most likely,taxation never crossed his mind.But once the government will start legalizing bitcoin,tax will surely be collected from it.This is still good because taxes will be used for building more infrastructures that will be of great benefits for the people themselves.

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I think he doesn't want tax with Bitcoin at all. Initially he created it to help us solve a lot of taxes from government and local agencies out of our assets and our finances. However, tax is an indispensable thing for every country to operate stably and well. As for bItcoin, fees from transactions can be viewed as tax, which helps both the system and transactions work stably and smoothly.

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The fact that he made something to fight off the government and to actually handle our things on our own , not without anyone else intervening , to be our own banks and to decrease the influence of the market regarding the big whales .
This is somehow against what a government could have wanted thus I think he never said anything about the taxation of bitcoins.
But taxation is actually good because it is considered a digital asset .. by the government.

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Quote from: Ranly123 on August 09, 2019, 05:35:08 AM

Quote from: Pipdips on August 06, 2019, 02:44:58 PM

Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

I doubt he did mention any about taxing Bitcoin. Satoshi is not part of any government bodies to taxation on Bitcoin is also not part of his plan.

All satoshi did was to create a tool for a particular purpose which we all know that it is for peer transaction, so if there is anything we can then make out of it, we are free. Many of us have made investment out of it and it is still working without it being stated in the whitepaper, and if bitcoin is taxable, then there is nothing wrong about government taxing it because it is against the law for anyone to evade tax.

Tax is a very compulsory thing and I believe that of satoshi is still alive he would also be paying his tax without defaulting. Bitcoin system is only going to go against third party involvement and that is why government needs to support full decentralization, if they do and then regulate it, it would be easier for them to tax easily in cryptocurrency.

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I think satoshi never thought of bitcoin being used on a mass global level so there was no chance of him mentioned anything related to the taxes on bitcoin.

since his invention is a currency i think tax have also come to his mind and i think tax is also the reason on why he invent something like this . he also though that his invention will become a hit someday because bitcoin is something that people will use on a daily basis .

Quote

The taxes are government specific and every government has the right to put different taxes on the transactions of bitcoin. But for this to happen, they will have to make bitcoin legal first.

yes its the governments job to apply tax but not all governments are requiring tax on bitcoin even if bitcoin is already legal on thier own country .

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Quote from: Pipdips on August 06, 2019, 02:44:58 PM

Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

I think satoshi never thought of bitcoin being used on a mass global level so there was no chance of him mentioned anything related to the taxes on bitcoin. The taxes are government specific and every government has the right to put different taxes on the transactions of bitcoin. But for this to happen, they will have to make bitcoin legal first.

The first part of your statement is wrong. You can check the posts that Satoshi made in this forum during 2010 and it is clear that he wanted BTC to grow as a trans-national currency. That said, it is true that he didn't mentioned anything about the taxation, either in the forum posts or in the original Bitcoin white paper (which was published in 2008).

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Quote from: dothebeats on August 06, 2019, 05:03:17 PM

None that I can remember upon reading some of his posts and interactions with other notable figures in bitcoin. From the looks of it, Satoshi seemed to be that anti-government guy that wants things to stay clear of government intervention and control that's why he created bitcoin. Also, his views are mainly crypto-anarchism, so that per se explicitly states that he will never ever support taxation in any way or form.

In the beginning it is clear that Satoshi does not want any government eyes on the bitcoin platform as the government will have the power to shut down anything during inception of a ground breaking parallel economy and during the initial phase it was important that we have to stay low until we have enough miners and be truly decentralized so that no government could take down the entire network.
When Satoshi was active in the project there was no value for bitcoin so i am not sure whether he would talk about taxation in bitcoin during that time.

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Quote from: omonuyak on August 08, 2019, 01:20:19 PM

Though Satoshi did not mentioned any thing like tax in the bitcoin’s white paper that does not mean bitcoin will not be subjected to taxes! Governments all over the world will not allow that and that is why we are seeing different type of cryptocurrencies regulations issued coming up this days than the time when Satoshi was active.

The government sees Bitcoin as an asset belonging to someone, therefore, they need to tax it. I think this maybe some of the reason why Satoshi made Bitcoin, to become free from banks. And there's the government, making a lot of regulations just to collect some taxes from you. I think we are never gonna be free from the government once they knew what we owned.

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Quote from: Pipdips on August 06, 2019, 02:44:58 PM

Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

I don't think that he has ever mentioned anything about taxation of Bitcoin. But enough evidence exists to prove that Satoshi Nakamoto had a negative attitude towards government taxation. Although he hasn't explicitly stated it, one of the purpose for the creation of Bitcoin may be to avoid paying taxes to the government authorities.

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Quote from: Pipdips on August 09, 2019, 11:22:18 AM

Did Satoshi ever make a spelling error, or any kind of syntax errors? Satoshi's writing was executed so perfectly clear and free of any errors.

A few minor ones, such as "more smaller" instead of just "smaller", and "lets" instead of "let's", but as you say, his writing was generally very precise.

Quote from: Pipdips on August 09, 2019, 11:22:18 AM

o_e_l_e_o you seem knowledgeable, what do you think the story is behind Satoshi? Who, what, and where was Satoshi?

I wouldn't call myself knowledgeable, just that I've spent some time reading all of his writings and correspondence (which I would recommend to anyone who is genuinely interested in bitcoin).

Regarding his identity, I've honestly not really put much thought in to it. I think he was probably an individual rather than a group, and I think he was probably a male in his late 30s or 40s in 2009. Beyond that, I don't really have a desire to speculate. He went to great lengths to maintain his privacy and anonymity, and I think we should respect that.

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Quote from: Nellayar on August 08, 2019, 06:48:32 AM

Quote from: dothebeats on August 06, 2019, 05:03:17 PM

None that I can remember upon reading some of his posts and interactions with other notable figures in bitcoin. From the looks of it, Satoshi seemed to be that anti-government guy that wants things to stay clear of government intervention and control that's why he created bitcoin. Also, his views are mainly crypto-anarchism, so that per se explicitly states that he will never ever support taxation in any way or form.

I did not also remember that I saw any taxation in bitcoin came from Satoshi Nakamoto. In fact, I think he does not want us to have negotiations against government since he want decentralisation and transparency among people. Well, we already paying indirect taxes in cryptocurrency. We just don't see it because it is in terms of satoshi only. Just like a fee in withdrawals or transferring btc to other wallet.

Of course, I'm sure Satoshi's idea in making bitcoin is because he wants to avoid all the rules and regulations that apply from the government, thats why he makes crypto anonymous and decentralized, of course he is very sad now when see there is a tax that is applied to its users

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 06, 2019, 03:58:10 PM

You can have a look through all of Satoshi's writings here: https://satoshi.nakamotoinstitute.org/
And you can also have a look through all of his forum posts here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/satoshi-3

Did Satoshi ever make a spelling error, or any kind of syntax errors? Satoshi's writing was executed so perfectly clear and free of any errors.

o_e_l_e_o you seem knowledgeable, what do you think the story is behind Satoshi? Who, what, and where was Satoshi?

13abyknight

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Bitcoin was never meant to be regulated by any entity and therefore any talks about 'taxing Bitcoin' does not make much sense. Of course, looking at all the cryptocurrency regulatory rules that have been built by different countries kind of seems like a taxation on the currency itself and yet the only sort of 'fee' a Bitcoin user would be paying is the miner fee and nothing more.

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Quote from: el kaka22 on August 08, 2019, 02:10:01 AM

Quote from: Pipdips on August 06, 2019, 02:44:58 PM

Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

I really doubt Satoshi ever saw bitcoin becoming this big, he created something with the mindset of a person of academics and he was just focusing on making something that he thought would be a lot better alternative to fiat money but in the end he wasn't expecting millions of people trading billions of dollars everyday on a trillion dollar market.

Definitely, Satoshi never expected Bitcoin will grow up this huge that even governments tend to admire this technology. Hence, He didn't see this coming and never thought about taxes. All he wanted to do is to Bitcoin become more complex and convenient payment transactions with of course no third party involved but seems there are still glitches like taxes.

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Government control of currency would be ideal if we had a perfect and honest governments.

I'm glad that with Bitcoin we can support our own form of money, one that can't be taken away if taken care of the right way. We can't and shouldn't expect governments to turn honest, but we can expect them to at least have some more respect for the people now they have their own money that can't be taken away from them.

In some states you can even pay your taxes in Bitcoin. Sure, it's still going through a payment gateway as we speak, but this is a first important step in the right direction, where the next step could be that some states will choose to accept Bitcoin directly. It would mean that governments take it serious enough to not have it converted to fiat and therefore value it above their own fiat currencies.

It tells me that if people and businesses no longer have an incentive to accumulate fiat to pay their taxes, and there is no payment gateway inbetween to sell these coins back to speculators, fiat's "intrinsic value" will be taking a massive hit since it is just a believe system.

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The question now is, will state governments issue mandated tax payment for every single person holding on or investing in Bitcoin?
For sure Satoshi did not mention taxation and it was obviously one of his major reasons for the creation of Bitcoin; to be free from tax. If the currency is not been controlled by any third party with trust, no need for tax.

However, IRS loves to go where there is much crowd, they see Bitcoin as a means many people use to escape tax payment more reason you see their involvement in it.

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Quote from: Pipdips on August 06, 2019, 02:44:58 PM

Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

I doubt he did mention any about taxing Bitcoin. Satoshi is not part of any government bodies to taxation on Bitcoin is also not part of his plan.

FanEagle

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I guess if you are creating something that would replace the fiat currency and even if we consider all nations eventually having their own crypto currency and everyone in the world paying for stuff with their debit cards filled with national crypto and mobile apps and so forth (futuristic looking but it is actually doable right now, just needs adoption) you have to consider taxing.

It means if satoshi was actually hoping for all the fiat currencies in the world getting destroyed and instead whole world eventually starts using crypto that would mean he needs to consider taxing as well, crypto is just changing the shape of currency from fiat to digital whereas it does nothing for taxing, governments still need to tax and still need to rule the world over and without that we can't really hope for governments to make the country better (not like they use it for that but at least there are minor things get done).

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Quote from: Pipdips on August 06, 2019, 02:44:58 PM

Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

That was the idea, financial freedom, no third party, the liberty of the crypto market as a response to the banks policy with fiat money. So there was nothing about taxering BTC.

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No, but it comes without saying. Cryptocurrency if you still don't even consider it as a currency itself is still an asset because it carries/stores value with its digital code. And we all know anything that has value may it be stocks, real estates, or simply anything with capital gains is taxable by law. The only problem I see based on the current events I always read is some countries are having a hard time identifying what kind of asset is Bitcoin and that's important to them as each classification has different kinds of taxes.

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Quote from: dothebeats on August 06, 2019, 05:03:17 PM

None that I can remember upon reading some of his posts and interactions with other notable figures in bitcoin. From the looks of it, Satoshi seemed to be that anti-government guy that wants things to stay clear of government intervention and control that's why he created bitcoin. Also, his views are mainly crypto-anarchism, so that per se explicitly states that he will never ever support taxation in any way or form.

The main purpose on why Bitcoin is created where to be freed out on the chain of government rules when it comes to finances.So most probably he doesn't mind about taxation or any related things.

If he's still alive now,he might already anticipated for this possibility for government to interrupt into its creation.Its inevitable though if we look deep through because government does really like to get involve into things which do opposes it.

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Though Satoshi did not mentioned any thing like tax in the bitcoin’s white paper that does not mean bitcoin will not be subjected to taxes! Governments all over the world will not allow that and that is why we are seeing different type of cryptocurrencies regulations issued coming up this days than the time when Satoshi was active.

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Quote from: Pipdips on August 06, 2019, 02:44:58 PM

Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

Satoshi could have created a system that would make payment easy and then eliminate the third party involvement in transactions, but I am sure that he would never think of making it to eliminate tax because without tax, the country he is leaving would not have been as developed as it is now for him to be able to leave comfortably in it.

We all know what tax is all about, let us forget the fact that we have some government that are not using it rightly, but the purpose of tax is to maintain a country and without that tax, the country may just be in a serious mess, and even if satoshi had not talked about tax, I am sure that he would never be against it. Tax is part of government and no one can take that away, if government would not have a way to tax bitcoin, and then just know that they will declare it illegal.

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Quote from: Pipdips on August 06, 2019, 02:44:58 PM

Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

If you read the first sentence of the white paper, you don`t get taxed, there is a network fee, which is kind of like a tax, but not really a tax.

If you use bitcoin correctly there should only be 1 fee when trading.

So there was no need for satoshi to mention anything about tax.

In the future I would like to see the network fee kind of support other things not just the miners, you could build a real society behind a model like this.

Imagine everyone voting where the tax fees were spent in your society and everyone creating the supply rather than a few, it would be like a non communist $lavery $ystem for once.

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Quote from: timerland on August 08, 2019, 07:25:16 AM

I don't think we'll get out of paying taxes any day soon. Taxes are always gonna be following us around.

Fair enough. Solid viewpoint. I think you are right.

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Quote from: Pipdips on August 06, 2019, 08:44:39 PM

Wow, that is almost over my head. It sounds like those two quotes are saying that Bitcoin was designed to be free from taxes. That is what I always thought myself, but now the big concern we have to contend with is that the IRS is jumping in front of Bitcoiners and saying they want a piece of the action. It's not surprising, but still.

Bitcoiners will need to join together and take a stand together against the Tax Man? Essentially in the future people all around the world will decide they do not want to be taxed on their Bitcoin. A global currency. An uprising against the Tax Man is very possible, and probable.

Yes and no, from my knowledge. I don't think BTC was invented to circumvent taxes, instead, it was a coin that was made to bring power to the people, and give them faster and more transparent transactions. Keep in mind, comparing BTC to wire transfer transactions is a hell of a lot faster, and that was one of the main issues that BTC was built to solve.

I don't think we'll get out of paying taxes any day soon. Taxes are always gonna be following us around.

Quote from: Febo on August 07, 2019, 05:01:26 PM

Quote from: Pipdips on August 06, 2019, 02:44:58 PM

Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

Transaction fees are the tax you have to pay so your transaction happens. He told a lot about fees, just search for it.

No, I don't think that it at all, taxes often take up 20-40 percent of your income, while TX fees are a couple of cents, and basically nothing. I wouldn't look at TX fees in this way at all!

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Quote from: dothebeats on August 06, 2019, 05:03:17 PM

None that I can remember upon reading some of his posts and interactions with other notable figures in bitcoin. From the looks of it, Satoshi seemed to be that anti-government guy that wants things to stay clear of government intervention and control that's why he created bitcoin. Also, his views are mainly crypto-anarchism, so that per se explicitly states that he will never ever support taxation in any way or form.

I did not also remember that I saw any taxation in bitcoin came from Satoshi Nakamoto. In fact, I think he does not want us to have negotiations against government since he want decentralisation and transparency among people. Well, we already paying indirect taxes in cryptocurrency. We just don't see it because it is in terms of satoshi only. Just like a fee in withdrawals or transferring btc to other wallet.

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Quote from: el kaka22 on August 08, 2019, 02:10:01 AM

Quote from: Pipdips on August 06, 2019, 02:44:58 PM

Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

I really doubt Satoshi ever saw bitcoin becoming this big, he created something with the mindset of a person of academics and he was just focusing on making something that he thought would be a lot better alternative to fiat money but in the end he wasn't expecting millions of people trading billions of dollars everyday on a trillion dollar market. That is not something you would even dream about when you are making stuff up, like when I dream about having a big house of my own I am dreaming about stuff like american suborbian tv show houses not a huge castle in UK, that would be too unrealistic.

Well, same thing happened to Satoshi, he would have expected the close circle of him that is interested in this would definitely look into it but he wouldn't even dream of something this big.

Right, of course he was a visionary but he didn't forsee his creation to grow this big after ten years so. I doubt that taxation has crossed his mind. His main goal is to create an alternative to fiat system, a technology with no central authority so obviously there should be no taxation.

However, as Bitcoin grows overtime no doubt that government is running after people which huge stash and wanted to get a piece of that pie.

Now the question boils down as how one will pay taxes or if someone is willing to do so?

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Quote from: Pipdips on August 06, 2019, 02:44:58 PM

Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

I really doubt Satoshi ever saw bitcoin becoming this big, he created something with the mindset of a person of academics and he was just focusing on making something that he thought would be a lot better alternative to fiat money but in the end he wasn't expecting millions of people trading billions of dollars everyday on a trillion dollar market. That is not something you would even dream about when you are making stuff up, like when I dream about having a big house of my own I am dreaming about stuff like american suborbian tv show houses not a huge castle in UK, that would be too unrealistic.

Well, same thing happened to Satoshi, he would have expected the close circle of him that is interested in this would definitely look into it but he wouldn't even dream of something this big.

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Quote from: Pipdips on August 06, 2019, 02:44:58 PM

Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

Transaction fees are the tax you have to pay so your transaction happens. He told a lot about fees, just search for it.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 06, 2019, 03:58:10 PM

I know the same (lack of intrinsic value) can be said of fiat currencies, but an artificial demand for fiat currencies is created by (among other things) taxation and legal-tender laws. Also, even a fiat currency can be an inflation hedge against another fiat currency's higher rate of inflation. But in the case of bitcoins the inflation rate of 35% is almost guaranteed by the technology, there are no supporting mechanisms for taxation, and no legal-tender laws. People will not hold assets in this highly-inflationary currency if they can help it.

Concluding from Ray Dillinger's words that bitcoin has no supporting mechanism to carry out taxation. I think that is absolutely right because bitcoin itself is a decentralized currency, which from the beginning was intended as an anonymous currency. How will taxation work in a decentralized currency? wouldn't that violate the basis of its creation?

Maybe in Ripple's eyes taxation could still be developed like that because the coin was included a centralized coin. Where from the beginning intended to rival fiat currencies.

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Quote from: Pipdips on August 06, 2019, 02:44:58 PM

Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

When it comes to the issue of tax, it goes beyond the vision or decision of any individual. Its about the government running effectively. Any individual promising to cut on tax is just making such promises as a politician and nothing more because that is the machinery that keeps the country running. On whether Satoshi talks about it or not is beyond him and also would be contradictory to everything we have read about what bitcoin or crypto is all about. Again, a dream is only your dream before it being a success the moment that is done, a lot of interest groups would start showing face in ensuring how their interest would be protected and ensure they put in place processes to achieve that which in this case, government is not an exception.

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Quote from: Pipdips on August 06, 2019, 08:44:39 PM

That is what I always thought myself, but now the big concern we have to contend with is that the IRS is jumping in front of Bitcoiners and saying they want a piece of the action.

This is by no means unique to bitcoin. The IRS want to stick their noses in everything. Bitcoin may seem different since it is actually a currency in its own right, but since the IRS class it as property, it will be taxed as property.

Let's say we are trading basketball cards. I swap you a rare Kobe Bryant card for a rare LeBron James card. No fiat changes hand. No values are even discussed. As far as the IRS is concerned, we both sold our cards to the other person for fiat, and then used that fiat to immediately buy the other person's card. We both owe taxes on the capital gain made, which is the difference between what we bought the card for originally, and what its market value was when we traded it to each other.

Do people report such trades and pay taxes? Largely no, but there is no publically accessible ledger of all basketball card trades.

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Quote from: Pipdips on August 06, 2019, 08:44:39 PM

Quote from: arrmia11 on August 06, 2019, 06:39:58 PM

He just wanted people to free from fiat slavery, so no taxation ever mentioned.

Bitcoiners will need to join together and take a stand together against the Tax Man? Essentially in the future people all around the world will decide they do not want to be taxed on their Bitcoin. A global currency. An uprising against the Tax Man is very possible, and probable.

One important distinction to be made from this is that our Bitcoin is not taxed per se. Our earnings from Bitcoin (and from whatever other source) however, is taxable under income tax laws. No one is taxed for simply owning or trading Bitcoin; there's always going to be profit involved somewhere.

It's completely up to the individual whatever they might think of taxes, but just because it's a different currency doesn't necessarily mean earnings derived from it shouldn't be taxable.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 06, 2019, 03:58:10 PM

As far as I can tell, he never directly mentioned taxation. Tax is mentioned briefly in a couple of the early email chains between Satoshi and people like Hal Finney and Ray Dillinger. I'll paste the relevant sections here:

Quote from: Ray Dillinger https://satoshi.nakamotoinstitute.org/emails/cryptography/threads/1/

I know the same (lack of intrinsic value) can be said of fiat currencies, but an artificial demand for fiat currencies is created by (among other things) taxation and legal-tender laws. Also, even a fiat currency can be an inflation hedge against another fiat currency's higher rate of inflation. But in the case of bitcoins the inflation rate of 35% is almost guaranteed by the technology, there are no supporting mechanisms for taxation, and no legal-tender laws. People will not hold assets in this highly-inflationary currency if they can help it.

Quote from: Jonathan Thornburg https://satoshi.nakamotoinstitute.org/emails/cryptography/threads/2/

In the modern world, no major government wants to allow untracable international financial transactions above some fairly modest size thresholds. (The usual catch-phrases are things like "laundering drug money", "tax evasion", and/or "financing terrorist groups".) To this end, electronic financial transactions are currently monitored by various governments & their agencies, and any but the smallest of transactions now come with various ID requirements for the humans on each end.

Wow, that is almost over my head. It sounds like those two quotes are saying that Bitcoin was designed to be free from taxes. That is what I always thought myself, but now the big concern we have to contend with is that the IRS is jumping in front of Bitcoiners and saying they want a piece of the action. It's not surprising, but still.

Quote from: dothebeats on August 06, 2019, 05:03:17 PM

None that I can remember upon reading some of his posts and interactions with other notable figures in bitcoin. From the looks of it, Satoshi seemed to be that anti-government guy that wants things to stay clear of government intervention and control that's why he created bitcoin. Also, his views are mainly crypto-anarchism, so that per se explicitly states that he will never ever support taxation in any way or form.

Cool perspective and I agree, however, I am no where near as clever as Satoshi is/was. Unless you guys come up with something that makes our Bitcoin un-taxable (by the IRS) then I am beginning to buckle under the pressure of uncertainty. I am starting to think that I'd rather just give up my KYC and be done with it, instead of being bogged down with figuring out how to be untraceable or stealthy like that. Just being real, from the perspective of somebody that is not ultra computer savvy and lacking savvy hacker knowledge.

Quote from: arrmia11 on August 06, 2019, 06:39:58 PM

He just wanted people to free from fiat slavery, so no taxation ever mentioned.

Bitcoiners will need to join together and take a stand together against the Tax Man? Essentially in the future people all around the world will decide they do not want to be taxed on their Bitcoin. A global currency. An uprising against the Tax Man is very possible, and probable.

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I doubt satoshi thought his idea would ever get so big, ready to rival governments currencies and likely change the course of history forever, especially with blockchain technology.

I don't think he would consider and care about the government - he wanted and created a peer to peer currency that would be able to escape the government rule and be for everyone to use.

He was 99% anti taxation, so I don't think we can look at BTC transaction fees as his way of taxation, it isn't as much as regular taxes are and goes against his mindset.

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Satoshi created bitcoin to be used as peer-to-peer currency, not an investment product
he wants to provide an alternative way of making transactions between people with privacy and security
that's why he used pseudonym and I believe he doesn't care about government and taxation
bitcoin is all about pseudonymous transactions, decentralized, no boundaries, free from government interference

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Quote from: jackg on August 06, 2019, 02:52:27 PM

I think that's quite doubtful.
Satoshi was never in power in a government, he probably didnt care what people did with the currency and just offered something they built to the community.

Bitcoin fees are a bit like a tax (as much as inflation is a hidden tax in currency) but that's all e really have afaik.

If you think bitcoin will go higher, it's worth paying taxes now rather than paying huge fines in the future for not doing so...

He just wanted people to free from fiat slavery, so no taxation ever mentioned.

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Satoshi seemed to have invented Bitcoins for the good of people who want to live freely, protect and maintain their privacy and save themselves from hefty taxes levied by Governments on their fiat by using cryptocurrencies (at that time - Btc). I don't see a need why would Satoshi ever think of something he never wanted anyone to pay for their transactions, he wanted us to keep our finances private and save a lot on transaction fees too.

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No. I think taxation is quite subjective and differs from case to case as to what is justified as taxation and what isn't. I don't even think I would care if he considered taxation a point of importance.

Being given the opportunity to be your own bank and therefore no longer need a central party to rely on, there effectively is no way to tax you, while before, the IRS could have made it so that your bank accounts would be frozen.

The only way to have your Bitcoins frozen is to have them stored in an exchange or online wallet service, but then a point can be made that it's not you who owns the coins, but the exchange or online wallet service.

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Quote from: dothebeats on August 06, 2019, 05:03:17 PM

None that I can remember upon reading some of his posts and interactions with other notable figures in bitcoin. From the looks of it, Satoshi seemed to be that anti-government guy that wants things to stay clear of government intervention and control that's why he created bitcoin. Also, his views are mainly crypto-anarchism, so that per se explicitly states that he will never ever support taxation in any way or form.

This pretty much sums up what I think as well.

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None that I can remember upon reading some of his posts and interactions with other notable figures in bitcoin. From the looks of it, Satoshi seemed to be that anti-government guy that wants things to stay clear of government intervention and control that's why he created bitcoin. Also, his views are mainly crypto-anarchism, so that per se explicitly states that he will never ever support taxation in any way or form.

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No, why would he?

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You can have a look through all of Satoshi's writings here: https://satoshi.nakamotoinstitute.org/
And you can also have a look through all of his forum posts here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/satoshi-3

As far as I can tell, he never directly mentioned taxation. Tax is mentioned briefly in a couple of the early email chains between Satoshi and people like Hal Finney and Ray Dillinger. I'll paste the relevant sections here:

Quote from: Ray Dillinger https://satoshi.nakamotoinstitute.org/emails/cryptography/threads/1/

I know the same (lack of intrinsic value) can be said of fiat currencies, but an artificial demand for fiat currencies is created by (among other things) taxation and legal-tender laws. Also, even a fiat currency can be an inflation hedge against another fiat currency's higher rate of inflation. But in the case of bitcoins the inflation rate of 35% is almost guaranteed by the technology, there are no supporting mechanisms for taxation, and no legal-tender laws. People will not hold assets in this highly-inflationary currency if they can help it.

Quote from: Jonathan Thornburg https://satoshi.nakamotoinstitute.org/emails/cryptography/threads/2/

In the modern world, no major government wants to allow untracable international financial transactions above some fairly modest size thresholds. (The usual catch-phrases are things like "laundering drug money", "tax evasion", and/or "financing terrorist groups".) To this end, electronic financial transactions are currently monitored by various governments & their agencies, and any but the smallest of transactions now come with various ID requirements for the humans on each end.

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I think that's quite doubtful.
Satoshi was never in power in a government, he probably didnt care what people did with the currency and just offered something they built to the community.

Bitcoin fees are a bit like a tax (as much as inflation is a hidden tax in currency) but that's all e really have afaik.

If you think bitcoin will go higher, it's worth paying taxes now rather than paying huge fines in the future for not doing so...

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Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

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