Topic: Digital Bitcoin Giftcards (Read 580 times)

What's the need of going through this whole process of yours and still setting up a wallet after the whole procedures.
Why not the individual download a convenient web wallet for use instead of later wishing to do so after receiving your crypto gift.

I think someone has already recommended opendime and it's certainly the best and safest way to give Bitcoins as long as the person receiving the gift is able to: 1 manage a wallet and a private key 2 is able to understand how opendime works .  Otherwise it becomes very risky to give away Bitcoins in this way.  At the same time creating a wallet, noting a seed and uploading bitcoins is not a good method at all as privacy is lacking.  I like your idea but I don't like the part that you have to manage a web wallet.

   - Tried to find out about this on digital bitcoin cards on google, and I didn't find anything exactly what it was saying, instead of this it came up I was given different suggestions. Because I'm not familiar with what you're saying, and I can't see the benefits of users in these apps.

Then if there is a kyc that is required, I think I would be a bit distant from that, because for me, what I know is that when it is decentralized, there is no such aspect as what you are saying OP.

Whatever suggestion the OP is trying to build on it doesn't matter to me, but the concept of decentralization doesn't require KYC to take place and it is because of this that freedom of choice of Bitcoins is acceptable and makes more sense.

Furthermore, why would someone give bitcoins, if they don't try to download the wallet and don't know how to use it. If indeed you intend to give bitcoin gifts, just download a wallet that doesn't require KYC, it's easier and can be done on the currently available wallet services.

I have no idea of kyc in owning a bitcoin wallet or is it what am thinking that, just maybe , you're developing a process that will condition people to download your particular app for use. Your proposed solution seem centralized to me and it doesn't look good for bitcoin.

Take a look at how Mycelium creates a Single Address Account: it gives you an encrypted PDF that you can email (and print), and shows the 16 character password on the screen. That still requires your device to be secure, but your printer can be in public.

It would be nice if you could design an App that would generate a Paper wallet... but it must split the Bitcoin address and the Pass phrase and Private key and send that to different platforms.

Example : Send the Bitcoin address on a Gift card to the receivers Email address. Then send the encrypted Private Key to his mobile phone via an SmS. You can even phone the receiver in person to give them the Pass phrase to split all the information for security purposes.

Something like https://www.bitaddress.org interface .... with a gift card design .... and then you can generate those offline.. and then print the gift card and then send the Private key to a mobile phone and the pass phrase with a phone call.  

Thanks for all the great feedback guys. I decided to pause this idea since the path to be profitable was a unclear one for me. I will probably visit it again in the future or maybe someone else who reads this will find the idea interesting. Thank y'all for the great feedback also, this forum has the most informed users I have found across the internet.

You should copy the Casascius coins and what similar collectible coins did by automatically transferring the funds to another private key, which is then BIP38-encrypted and the code in the gift card contains the password for decrypting it, that looks like an actual gift card code (though probably longer to withstand brute-force attacks). Of course, it would also contain the BIP38 itself.

So, only the person who generated the gift card and the recipient can redeem it - which makes sense when you think about it, because a person who gives you a physical gift card could've just redeemed it themselves.

If this becomes popular, and if OPs server disappears in the future, someone else can setup a clone where all users can process their gift cards.
Users need to make sure the website is trusted though, and if this becomes popular phishing sites might become a problem.

This sounds like "cookie data". If that's the case: can you add all necessary data to one backup-URL that can be bookmarked? That should even make it possible to restore the data with a fresh installation from Github.

I'd go for both options, but I get where you're coming from

The encrypted paper wallet that's been in my (physical) wallet for years kindly disagrees

I like that as a slogan: "Use it or lose it!"

I've only given paper wallets to a few to people I care about, but tracking is easy: I keep a watch-only wallet with the addresses, and each address is labeled so I know who I gave it to.

You're right. A pre-loaded wallet is a bad idea. But asking someone to make a wallet and sending coin to that wallet would still be a better teaching experience.
One could argue that it would be better to give them the incentive to learn more about Bitcoin, Blockchain and how to make a wallet and send Bitcoin to that wallet for themselves. It would definitely suit the ultimate goal of adoption of Bitcoin better to have informed coiner newbies rather than coiners who only know how to use Bitcoin through third party apps and third party wallets. It would definitely help them out in the long run and learning by doing is really the best kind of learning.

But yeah, unless they transfer the coin to a new wallet there would be a security risk. Again, something the Bitcoin newbies should learn for themselves. But that's just how I think about it.

In my current implementation no, the sender would have to retrieve the funds. Your suggestions made me rethink the infrastructure and I think ill just have the server do the refunds and the gift certificate act more like seed phrase in its use. Thanks for the input.

With the new design it would work similar to coinbin , but a serve would store a refund transaction to be broadcast when the card expires. I will create a technical spec sometime before I launch to mainnet.

Not by default but it could be if the sender wished for it be. Thats a good idea also. It would be stored in the senders local computer so yes.

There is local data stored on the creators computer that would be needed, (or a gift certificate with the new design you inspired).
I don't think that creates a gifting experience that I would want to support with my app. I think that bitcoin should be used by new people not stored on paper in hopes it'll be worth something. My app will be secure enough for small amounts of crypto, but not for large amounts. 100 dollars of bitcoin today could be worth 1,000 dollar+ in 4 years and a paper wallet should not be used to store that amount (in my opnion). So I will keep the life of the wallet under 30 days. Use it or loose it type deal, but I see how people could want a longer life. I just don't agree. I also have a question since you seem to gift bitcoin alot. How do you manage your cards once you give them? Like if give 10 cards and track them for 4 years, do you just have a stack of paper wallets that you check up on periodically?
Your right, i'll correct my statements concerning this moving forward.
I tried to redeem a paper wallet this way and it was much easier than I thought it would be. I think most people should be able to get through it, so thanks for bringing this method up. I still think the experience would be easier with my app, but easier is dependent  on someone's goals and opinions.
If they choose to buy a giftcard then thats fine in my book. They got to send their first crypto transaction and got some crypto exposure and education. If someone is interested in crypto Id rather give them a bitcoin giftcard that they can choose to convert to a amazon, ebay or whatever giftcard rather than just give the amazon card originally. Users of my app will feel the same way, or they can use another way to gift. No Hard feelings.

Thanks for all the great input, the questions about the server made me ralize it really isnt needed for transferring info. Im going to work on the giftcard encoding directly to a bitcoin mnemonic then wallet vs using encrypted data.

This part sounds good.

"Here's a piece of paper with Bitcoin. Safely keep it, treat it like cash, and if it ever becomes valuable, learn how to use it."

There's a different risk involved: by giving someone a seed phrase, they may actually start using that wallet, which means you have access to their future deposits. It's much better to teach a new Bitcoin user to create their own wallet, so they know for sure nobody else has access to their seed phrase.

Thanks for the words of encouragement.  I think that the process for gifting a non-coiner bitcoin is not as easy(simple) as people think it is. I think its similar to the idea that everyone thinks making a peanut butter sandwich is easy until they have to write the steps down for someone who isn't informed about the process. I think it would be very hard to condense the instruction set for a no-coiner , with no crypto experience, to send a transaction using electrum from a mnemonic seed down to just one page. These instructions would take no less than  30 minutes to complete correctly if they did exist. So I know my app will be easier and simpler for nocoiners to get started with than any process that currently exist. I think that the easier for nocoiners value prop is hard for experts in the crypto space to value and appreciate, until they have to actually write instructions down for a nocoiner and have them go through the process without extra input.

I mentioned kyc because when you google gift bitcoin, the first link is for coinbase gifting. Someone can argue if coinbase is a wallet, or if some bitcoin wallets require kyc. I know that the top google alternatives require and promote kyc so I contrasted my idea with those top alternatives.

I encounter the lack of ease in a lot of bitcoin spaces and products. I don't think that decentralization and self-custody should be hard, require a printer or take an expert guiding you through the process. I like working on products that make things easier and more accessible than the status quo because crypto is competing against easy and centralized processes like coinbase, so I think decentralization has to get easier or it will loose to centralized forces. Decentralization is currently loosing in the gifting bitcoin space , since coinbase is the top result and the following guides also recommend exchanges. I think gifting is a easy win to have, since no one likes doing kyc to get a gift, so I'm pursing that goal.

I am happy to see people trying to find different ways on to use Bitcoin and how to spread that coin happiness to others. So kudos to you!
However you must forgive me but your proposal seems like a lot of mental gymnastics to come to the same result as giving someone the seed phrase to a wallet with the gifted Bitcoin on it?

Either way they will have to download either a wallet, or on this case, your app? And you do not need KYC for Bitcoin wallets so that argument makes no sense.

Really anything they want to do they already can do without your app. Perhaps your apps use case should be that it simplifies the process? So instead of going to multiple places to do things with their coin (trading, buying amazon giftcards, etc.), they can outsource it all to one app?

Here is the github repo: https://github.com/DecentralizeJustice/giftMonerodotapp. Thanks for the wallet suggestion.

Thanks alot for checking out the app SFR10. I'm glad you thought it was simple, that was one of my founding ideas for making this. The wallet is fully in ran in the browser. There is server that holds the encrypted wallet info for transferring between people but the information is encrypted with the giftcard and has ~128 bits of security. So its non-custodial as a local web wallet on the useres machine.   The gift recipient will be given the option to spend the funds as they see fit. They might choose to buy a amazon giftcard from me with the funds. I would make money from this transaction, but its not a required transaction for the gift recipient. They would be given other options such as setting up a wallet or swapping to another crypto that they can choose from. Once the wallet expires the funds will be refunded back to the gift sender. The server would hold a refund transaction to broadcast once the wallet expires. The wallet lives in the senders browser, so they can retrieve the funds at anytime they choose. Thanks for the great questions around custody, there is a lot of nuance to be had so I hope I was clear in communicating how this is non-custodial from the technical aspect. At no point can the service send your funds anywhere you did not sign a transaction approving for them to go. If the website goes down, the code is open source and runs locally. So the user can clone the repo and continue on their way. Feel free to ask anymore technical questions about custody with the gifting app. Also the 2 hours is for testing purposes, in production the gifter will set the refund time as long as its under 30 days.

As far as paper wallets go. There are a lot of informed people who hate paper wallets and think they should not be used for gifts like andreas antonopoulos . I don't mean to appeal to authority but show that people have different opinions of the use of paper wallets. That goes to say that because you like paper wallets that does not mean that they are the best for everyone, and some people would like the convivence of an app to gift bitcoin. This app will be the easiest way to gift btc without app download or kyc, since a paper wallet requires an app to use. Even open dimes require an app to use. If you don't think an app download is a big deal that's is a reasonable opinion to hold. The opinion that an app download isn't too much to ask does not change the value prop of this app, you just don't find the value proposition of the app to be useful for you. If there is another way to give bitcoin without an app download or kyc I will gladly qualify the value prop.

Thanks for feedback and questions also, I can see that effort was put into them.  

Non-existent problem, and that's why you've proposed this terrible, centralized, trust requiring solution. The simplest way to hand over some coins to somebody without him having a wallet software downloaded is to give him a paper wallet with the corresponded instructions.

I don't understand why you'd want to give bitcoin to someone who doesn't have a wallet software. If he doesn't know it at all, it's likely that he'll screw things up. Also, giving money as a gift defeats the gift part, or that's just me. But, if you want to, the safest option is the paper wallet.

I had a quick glance at the redemption process ^{[until the syncing part]} and it seemed easy enough for newcomers, but I can't understand how this could pass as a "non-custodial bitcoin gifting app" if you're going to charge something for it?!

• Quote from: dgoon on October 25, 2022, 01:50:46 PM
  I plan to make some percentage of the giftcards, swap services built in for the gift receiver. Its digital only so the cost to run is low.
  
  • Quote from: dgoon on October 25, 2022, 10:49:43 AM
    I have done research into past examples of non-custodial bitcoin gifting apps, but I wasn't able to find any.
    
    Quote from: dgoon on October 25, 2022, 01:50:46 PM
    Since its all local browser based, the creator and gift receiver would control the keys.
    

I have some thoughts on this too.
1. I surely hope that this is implemented in a way that by default the funds go back to original sender (and not the gift card app developer) after that period ends.
2. I would let the gift card funder decide whether the gift card expires or not (and the expire date, if any, has to be printed on the card). And I'll tell you why:
* if I want to give out money at some conference maybe I'll set up an expire date because I don't want my money be lost by people not interested to redeem it
* if I want to give it as a birthday present maybe I'll not set up any expire date because maybe my friend wants to keep it as a souvenir

Plus, it has to be stated clearly whether it's custodial or not (if it's custodial you may have trust problems and maybe also problems with financial institutions).


Sorry, I find the existing paper wallets (if generated properly, safely) and collectibles good enough for the job.
I mean that the recipient will have to install (and rather quick!) his own wallet, learn on his own to keep it safe (which is not gonna happen) and redeem that money. So one more level of complication.

But yeah, I may find easy the technical bits other don't gasp, so maybe my feedback is not that relevant or wrong. New projects - if made well (see my thoughts) - never hurt to be more.

My first thought: I think this is a terrible idea! If you want to give someone Bitcoin as a gift card, give them a paper wallet and explain to them how it works.

I have already disproven this statement. There's no need for KYC, and even better, downloading a wallet isn't a problem. I wish more people would actually do that instead of trusting third parties as if they're buying stock.
What's the point of giving someone Bitcoin if they can't install a wallet to use it?

From what I've seen, most people install far too many apps. As a Bitcoin user, I install as little untrusted software as possible.
It's easy to install an established wallet though. Electrum for instance.

This is less bad than my initial assumption, but why would I use a new service for this, if I can already choose from many different established wallets?

This site looks really nice. Don't get discouraged by "my first thought", I can imagine there's an audience for this.

How does it work on a technical level if this is custodial?
I've seen custodial Bitcoin "certificates" that expired after many years, it lead to quite some drama on the Collectibles board, and apparently it was according to the Terms of the service. The site closed, and people lost "their" Bitcoin.

There are many debit cards you can currently use with doing verification so I won't post any links for them, but one project exist without kyc called Coindebit.io, they are currently on hold and transitioning from beta to full phase release in next few months.

Ask them how and why they would benefit from this, not me.
If they can earn money from regular giftcards while scamming people, than they can do exactly the same thing with Bitcoin giftcards.
Better be ready for that and think of the ways how you would protect from this attacks.

Those seem really cool since they give you exposure to btc price, but allow you to spend like visa. I agree with you about how useful they would be for gifting.

I believe he's referring to these cards? https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--5280997

Although I'm not sure how can these cards be of any good when it's not something you can constantly get and it also requires identity verification.

Do you have a link to this product? I cant find any debit cards that can be loaded with bitcoin.

I am not sure I understand how scammers would benefit from a website that lets you give bitcoin to other people.

---

I also have a working(ish) demo, https://giftmonero.app/,  that I have built for gifting monero if that is something more concrete to help visualize how this would work for bitcoin. I was hesitant to post if before because this is a bitcoin development, but I think it would help with the technical demonstration.

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

I can always print and give them paper wallet with easy instructions how to use Bitcoin correctly.
It's not so important to give a 'fish'' to someone and fill his hunger, teach him to fish and he will feed himself for life... same goes for Bitcoin.
If I wanted to give Bitcoin to someone for long term storage I wouldn't tell them how to spend it so quickly, otherwise I would probably give them some debit card with Bitcoin loaded and ready for spending.

You do realize that one of the most profitable scam business in the world is fake tech support guys calling random people around the world and dealing with gift card scams?!
I am not saying this will happen with Giftbitcoin, but Bitcoin does attract a lot of scammers already.

Here is just a few examples with Kitboga and Scammer Payback:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7V0Oda3DAA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1Y2uW52-AA

Thanks for checking out the site @dkbit98. Its just a mockup that I spun up to gauges interest.

What kind of outcomes are you seeing when you gift bitcoin this way? When I suggest doing it this way , people don't have the motivation to for small amounts of btc. When they do get over installing the wallet, I have to walk them through what it is, and where they can spend it. Do you have a more streamlined way of going about this process of gifting?


The code would all be local browser based that reaches out to public api's for chain data. I could piggyback of large website host like GitHub, so I don't think DDOS would be and issue. Since its all local browser based, the creator and gift receiver would control the keys. As far has hacking goes, the small amounts involved in gifting would be the same risk profile as spending btc with online websites so I don't think that is a major concern my customers will have when sending small amounts to friends and family. 

 
I plan to make some percentage of the giftcards, swap services built in for the gift receiver. Its digital only so the cost to run is low.

Thanks again for taking the time to check everything out!

I am against asking people to complete any verification to receive bitcoin, but downloading a wallet takes only a few minutes and it's not that hard to accept coins after doing that.
There are also some web wallets, but I am not recommending to anyone, to avoid scam and phishing attacks.

I visited your website but nothing works there and nothing is happening when I click on all buttons and menus, so I guess it's just a mockup.
This is web wallet app, so what happens if you get ddos attacks and your website goes down, or get hacked are replaced with some malicious version?
Who is holding the keys for bitcoin and information for gift cards??

I would prefer to see code being released as open source or source viewable, otherwise nobody would know what is happening behind the scenes.
There is a market for Bitcoin gift card, but I am not sure how this would be profitable for you, and would you charge some percentage fees or not?

I was thinking that asking someone to download an app adds a considerable amount of friction to the process, but I could be wrong about that assumption. Oh yeah it would be open-source, I would not do bitcoin any other way.

I'm not aware of any other "apps" but there are multiple ways to gift bitcoin:

- OpenDime.
- Ask the receiver to set up a wallet and send him the bitcoin.
- Print a paper wallet, and hand it to the person.

I like the idea, but are you planning on making this open-source though? I guess not? since it you're going to be adding swapping, amazon gift cards, and other stuff.

Hi, Bitcoiners I am working a new way to gift bitcoin to no-coiners. I have come up with a landing page so far: https://www.giftbitcoin.app/

Problem:
The current ways to gift bitcoin are not great. They either require kyc or the gift recipient to download a wallet.

Solution:
I am prototyping a web app that lets a gifter load btc into a local-browser based wallet and send the gift recipient a digital giftcard that lets them then redeem the bitcoin. They would then be able to setup a wallet (if they wish) , buy an amazon giftcard, swap for another crypto etc. It would be a browser based wallet so I will be able to walk the user through whatever they choose to do with the btc with the gui.

My goal is to be the easiest way to gift btc without app download or kyc causing friction in the process.

How You Can Help:
 I have done research into past examples of non-custodial bitcoin gifting apps, but I wasn't able to find any. If y'all know of any I would love to hear about them. I would also love to hear any feedback, questions, or concerns about my idea that you have. Thank you for taking the time to read my project announcement.