Topic: [DISCUSSION] Lightning Network Explained by finaleshot2016. ⚡ (Read 599 times)

Na open ko na pala itong thread, naka new tab lang at now ko lang nabasa itong tagalog explanation about LN. I found it complicated nga, medyo nalilito pa ako pero nadagdagan naman ang kaalaman ko tungkol dito at meron din akong naintindihan.

Bago pa man magamit ang LN, hindi ko pa na try ang Segwit address/wallet.

Ano pinagkaiba nila? Bakit kailangan pa ng LN kung andyan na ang Segwit? So yung pagkukulang ng previous solution ay pupunan ng LN?

Kaso, yun nga may cons o disadvantage din ang LN. So nasa end user na lang din talaga kung anong option ang gagamitin. Kung trusted naman ang ka transaction, at gusto ng mabilisan at less fee, kay LN na gaya ng mga verified Coins.ph users.

Yung sa sample kina Pedro at Maria.
Si Juan at Karim ang payment channels? So dapat may sapat na funds sina Juan at Karim to be transferred to Maria.
Paano yung utang?

Bump!

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Since madami dami ulet ang mga bago sa ating local community, try kong i-bump itong thread na ito para malaman nila kung ano ang Lightning Network. Marahil na may mga technical terms silang nalalaman tungkol dito, ito na ang solusyon para mas lumawak ang ating kaalaman pagdating sa iba't ibang network na ginagamit sa cryptocurrency.

The thread consist of a wonderful discussion that tackles about Lightning Network and super worth to read. Sana ay bigyan ng pansin ang mga ganitong thread ng mga bago nating members.

Too late for the reply, your statement was very helpful on this thread. Thanks for clarifying the idea and showing some examples about Lightning Network. 

For more discussion since konti pa lang ang kaalaman ko sa LN, I’ll try to give my understanding because may plano ako na gumawa ng Lending thread or Q&A na kung sino makasagot ay may free 1000sats using LN payment, why not diba? both sides mag gain ng knowledge kung paano ba gumagana ang LN by sending yung price nila sa kanilang channel.

Paano gumagana ang Lightning Network?
Since ginagamit mo na halimbawa si coins.ph dito.

Additional information on how LN works is a little bit the same kay coins.ph:

i.e
(Coins.ph user #1 —> sending BTC or PHP —> to Coins.user #2)

Explanation: By using Lightning Network, yung transaction niyo between sainyong dalawa ay hindi na na-broadcast sa blockchain, instant, at may small transaction fees lang. Luckily to have us filipinos coins.ph dahil instant and no transaction fees; by using coins to coins transact.

Punta tayo kay Lightning Network:

Image above i’m using Bluewallet custodial Lightning wallets since wala pang stable or perfectly sade and fit na magandang gamitin sa ios.

Q: What does custodial Lightning Wallet means?
A: Ang ating Lightning Funds sakanila ay hindi safe if ever na magsara sira ay mawawala na ang ating Lightning Funds. Better to used or for small amount lang.

Kaya it’s much better safe to used a non-custodial wallet like Eclair for Android since alot of users tried it and works perfectly. Meron lang silang mga terms of opening channel at sundan na lang yun dahil di naman ako naka android kaya diko alam kung ano yun.

For ios I prefer Bluewallet for now para sa mga small amounts na transaction lang.

How does LN works?

Ikaw yung gagawa ng payment request para masend nila sayo yung hinihingi mo na amount na satoshis.


Then ang payment request ay makikitang ganto:

Actually for someone who does not know much of the technical side of LN, there is lesser complication. Everything is a lot more complicated if someone takes a look behind the technology. The complication is right there. My mother, for example, do not find Facebook complicated but if she has to look at how the data is being banked and secured, how algorithms are used in order for FB to provide her the correct choice of ads, etc, that would be a million times more complicated.

As for LN, you only have to download an LN wallet and if a certain store or shop is also open for LN, everything will proceed. Just imagine SegWit.

For now, we have Eclair, Zap, Shango, and a few more. Electrum will definitely be integrating LN to their wallets also.
 

Hindi ba medyo kumplikado itong LN para sa isang tao na wala masyading alam sa technical side ng crypto kagaya na lamang ng opening at closing ng payment channel? Nagkaroon na ng segwit-enabled btc address, magkakaroon din kaya ng LN-enabled kung saan mas simple ang proseso?

Yep yep! I am waiting for someone who could rebuff what I have understood so far para maliwanagan ako rito. I am far from being an expert kaya alam ko somewhere may mali siguro ako sa aking pagkakaintindi.


I've read a good number of articles about LN and so far yun yung nakuha kong mga impormasyon. Pero gaya nga ng sabi ko kay Bttzed03, I might be wrong somewhere. Kaya don't take my words as authority. 

I'll gonna read it hundred of times to clarify what's the main idea in Lightning Network. I found it very useful so can I use your statements for additional information regarding LN kasi para mas matutunan natin ng husto?  

Maraming salamat ng sobra!

LN may be a deviation from the original design to ease the use. Well, yun yung napiling paraan ng karamihan na bitcoin devs instead na lakihan ang blocksize gaya ng ginawa ng bcash.

Yung centralized hub ba ito? Yeah, yan din yung main criticism na nababasa ko. Mukhang hindi nga posible maging highly scalable ang LN kung walang multiple central hubs which makes the "centralized" argument valid. Pero ang maganda din dito is pwedeng makapag-transact w/o using any hub and still makes it decentralized.

Which information? Baka ako rin yung nagkamali.   That is why it would be best if other locals here would join the discussion to make light on all these.

Ang alam ko kasi if the channel between Juan at Karim has no or not enough balance, it cannot by used by Pedro to be able to pay Maria. Pedro => Juan => Karim => Maria. Dapat may enough balance ang nodes. So Pedro has to find another channel to be able to reach Maria. But since there are so many available channels in the network, it is impossible for any transaction not to succeed. Makakahanap at makakahanap pa rin ng ruta sa LN.

Most of the time naman kasi we, end-users, do not bother to get familiar with the nitty-gritty parts behind the technologies we conveniently use. For as long as, sabi mo nga, practical, we appreciate and make use of it. Kahit naman sa fiat that we use every single day. We do not anymore bother to ask how much is being printed in a day, how is the purchasing value determined, on what basis does the central bank create more bills or coins, and so on.

I thought Layer 2 solution siya since hindi naman siya kasali sa first introduction ng Bitcoin noon. Same with me, all out support since it's a really essential way to have multiple transactions.


So the information that is spreading in the whole community wasn't accurate. I only know the part of using the active payment channel to avoid TX fee and the transaction but I didn't know the part na the existing nodes which is si Juan at Karim also needed an existing fund before the transaction will happen. Actually, sa pagkakaalam ko, node to node basta may exisiting active payment channel ay magwowork na all through out yung process.

As of now, di pa naman tayo umaabot sa point na gagamit din tayo ng ganyan since sabi mo na needed ng malaking fund para mag-work yung whole process ng LN. We only have a small amount of BTC so I think mas better pa rin yung usual way na transaction sa blockchain.
Thanks for the additional info!

Let us be very careful about this in terms of improving Bitcoin. It might be in our too much pursuit of practicality that the ideas of Satoshi Nakamoto might die. Sa LN design pa lang, posibleng makapasok na ang mga banks and other huge companies eh.


Ang SegWit hindi layer 2 solution yan. It is a layer 1 solution. It is an improvement done within the main protocol of Bitcoin. Dahil sa SegWit mejo lumaki ng kaunti yung capacity ng blocks. Pero the size of the blocks remain the same. My support for SegWit is all out of course. Wala naman dinagdag na third party kumbaga. 


Before Satoshi left, he entrusted Bitcoin to this man Gavin Andresen, with the instruction na kapag kinakailangan, since darating din talaga ang araw na dadami ang users ng Bitcoin and therefore ang transactions din, maaaring lakihan ang block size.

Dumating na nga ang araw, we are now trying to target a million TPS capacity or even unlimited pa nga kasi we are looking at the global market, ala Visa or Mastercard style. But instead of increasing the block size, ang ginawa dinagdagan na lang ng isa pang network alongside doon sa existing network.

Ang pangamba ko rito is that LN by design needs networks of channels na dapat may lamang BTC kasi nga ang takbo ng isang transaction ay parang utang at once wala o kulang ang laman ng isang channel na dadaanan, hindi mangyayari yung transaction. So kailangan laging fluid para tuloy-tuloy ang transactions. At dahil millions ang target ng transactions per second, ang maaaring makapagpondo lamang ng malaki sa kanilang mga channels ay ang mga mayayaman. Posibleng mga bangko o mayayamang kumpanya.

So ganito ang magiging itsura:

(Taken from: https://medium.com/@jonaldfyookball/mathematical-proof-that-the-lightning-network-cannot-be-a-decentralized-bitcoin-scaling-solution-1b8147650800)


Ganito kasi ang takbo. Halimbawa, si Pedro ay magbabayad kay Maria ng 1BTC worth of goods. Gamit ang ruta ng Lightning Network, madadaanan si Juan at Karim bago kay Maria. Kailangang si Juan at Karim ay may 1BTC din. Otherwise, hindi maeexecute yung transaction. Kasi nga parang utang, yung 1BTC ni Juan ay mapupunta kay Karim at yung kay Karim naman mapupunta kay Maria. Pag natanggap na ni Maria, saka pa lamang aabot yung 1BTC ni Pedro kay Juan.

I think it's okay because for me, Lightning Network is for negotiations talaga especially for some big companies lalo na't sa mga every day na nagpapadala ng money. Pwede rin ang Lightning Network for those people na magkakakilala like funding, as long as they signed the contract using private keys, it means aware ang lahat at pwede silang mag-audit manually regarding sa fund na naiipon. Syempre there are so many cons kapag ang transaction is to a random person, we need transparancy for that. Kaya nga ang example na nilagay ko is company/platform kasi I already came up to this na transparency pa rin talaga ang importante kapag individual transaction for the security especially dito sa forum.


For now, patuloy pa rin naman ang development ng Blockchain and sobrang dami ng innovative projects regarding sa blockchain. For those business related transactions mas pipiliin nila yung LN but for us, the community itself, we need to support the blockchain for the development. Same goes with other platforms, instead of support bitcoin to reach its limit, we still support alternative crypto, hindi natin mapipigilan yung ganon, we find different ways on how to gain and to be practical.

Even SegWit, hindi naman talaga siya part ng protocol ng bitcoin pero we still use it for practicality. Sa fact na binigay ko na 1mb lang ang kaya for each block but because of SegWit, It has the ability to create multiple transaction within 1mb lang. So I'm not really against with Layer 2 solutions like LN, SegWit and other stuff kasi It doesn't really affect the price kasi sobrang daming user pa rin naman ng BTC, it's for the satisfaction of the other users.

Additional, I think LN doesn't really affect it but if do, it shouldn't exist. Yung protocol ng Bitcoin or ng Blockchain mismo are the things we should follow and those Layer 2 solutions are just optional if you will use it or not. Kasi kung yung layer 2 solutions ay na-adopt ng Blockchain, why not diba? Kung gusto may paraan pero I think the compatibility are not quite good. Ang nagiisang con lang na pumasok sa isip ko is advantage ang LN sa ibang alternative coin pero I think mahihirapan pa rin sila ma-surpass yung BTC through that. For example, Bitcoin Cash have a lot of TPS, 100+ transactions per second pero nalagpasan na ba nila yung Bitcoin kahit na 7 TPS lang 'to? Hindi diba. Kaya I'm still being positive to those layer 2 solutions like LN and SegWit, choice na rin naman natin if we will abandon BTC or not. Marami pa ring nagsti-stick sa BTC even it lack the features na meron sa ibang Cryptocurrency.  

Practicality-wise, ito nga siguro yun. Ito yung gusto natin eh, na maaari na nating gamitin si BTC sa halos lahat ng pang-araw-araw na pangangailangan natin. Dito sa small transactions talaga swak to si LN eh. Pagdating sa large amounts, you better be using the Bitcoin blockchain mismo. Hindi lang dahil naka-broadcast ito kundi dahil na rin sa malaking posibilidad na mahirap na mangyari ito considering that ang set-up ng LN ay hindi kagaya ng protocol ng Bitcoin na kung saan ang ipapadala mo ay syang matatanggap ng pinapadalhan mo. Sa LN, parang utangan muna ang nangyayari sa transaction. But this is a different discussion altogether.

Ang point ko is, does practicality override the original design of Bitcoin? As a matter of fact, sa tingin ko ang LN ay deviation na sa mismong design ng Bitcoin eh. Out of our sheer eagerness to use Bitcoin as the main currency, imbis na dun tayo gumawa ng improvement sa mismong blockchain, we resorted to adding a different layer, which is essentially hindi na Bitcoin.


Unfortunately, ito ang sa pagkakaintindi ko ay nanganganib na maaapektuhan sa disenyo ng LN.


Oo naman. May choice ka naman na hindi LN ang gagamitin mo.

Hati talaga mga enthusiasts dito. Siguro nga less weight na lang yung complete transparency kung iisipin natin yung practicality na hatid ng LN sa paggamit ng bitcoin as a medium of exchange.

As long as hindi apektado yung pagiging decentralized at censorship resistant feature ni bitcoin, okay na din siguro. Besides, pwede pa din naman makipag-transact gamit ang bitcoin 100% on-chain di ba?


Ganyan din pagkaintindi ko. Same example sa video sa previous comment ko.

Pero maraming mga in favor naman dun sa privacy na tinataglay ng off-chain transactions. Sinasabing Bitcoin is designed to be private and anonymous so bakit we make a big deal out of it na hindi nakikita yung details nung transactions. Pero personally, parang mas okay yung transparent lahat lahat, every step of the way.

Nabobroadcast naman daw on-chain ang transactions pero parang isahan ang mangyayari. Halimbawa, nagkape ka sa Aling Nena Coffee Shop sa umaga bago ka pumasok sa trabaho at nagbayad ng 10 Sats, tapos sa tanghali naman ay bumili ka ng cake dun bilang dessert at nagbayad ulit ng 10 Sats, tapos bago umuwi nagrelax ka at nagkape ulit sa halagang 10 Sats. Ang mangyayari, magrereflect doon sa blockchain na nagbayad ka ng 30 Sats kay Aling Nena Coffee Shop. Hindi yung per transaction.

I dunno kung tama ako rito pero ganito yung nabasa at naintindihan ko.   

Sa mga mas nakakaintindi ng explanation thru videos, pwede din ito https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrr_zPmEiME


Yan nga yung isa sa mga argument na nabasa ko about LN and so far wala pa akong nakitang proposed solution dito. It's ease of use vs. complete/full transparency.

To bump this thread for further discussion and for argument's sake, I would like to hear your opinion about transparency. For me, one thing that makes Bitcoin trustworthy is that it is transparent, fully transparent even. Each and every transaction within the blockchain is showed publicly and therefore could be accessed by anyone.

I remembered imagining public officials and offices here in the Philippines using Bitcoin wallets and doing transactions on blockchain. It could be more transparent. No hiding is possible as to when, to whom, and how much was spent or paid. Corruption could be greatly minimized.

If you use the Lightning Network, however, it is considered an off-chain transaction. Therefore the particular details of the transactions are not recorded on the blockchain and therefore not public.

This, for me, is not a good thing at all.

Which would you prefer, OP?

Di ko napansin, pero 1mb lang talaga, I think typo lang since gabi ko ginawa yung thread. Anyways, Thanks for correcting me!


Yes, that's why I'm very glad that someone replied to my thread, same goes in here, karamihan sa atin hindi na pinapansin yung ganitong threads which is really helpful naman talaga about Bitcoin. I'm looking forward to this LN kasi balita ko pati yung electrum is magkakaron ng ganitong feature which is karamihan sa atin gumagamit nito.


Good idea, Kahit sino papatol na sa 1k sats kasi kapag nakaipon ka, I think 5pesos ata equivalent niyan? pangbili rin ng load. 

Maganda yung naisip mo kabayan. Pero idadagdag ko lang para medyo malinaw.

Ang Lightning Network ay kasalukuyang hindi pa maaaring gamitin. Kumbaga ito ay nasa planning, early implementation o testing, at debugging stage pa lamang. Wala pang software kung saan ito ay maaaring magamit ng mga users sa kanilang pang-araw araw o ordinaryong mga transactions. So sa madaling sabi, dinidevelop pa lamang ito. Pero syempre tayong mga users naman ay hinihikayat ng mga developers ng Lightning Network na matuto at subukang gamitin ito through Bitcoin's testnet. Kasi nga nasa testing stage pa lamang ito, hindi muna gagamit ng totoong BTC o pera.

Bagama't napakagandang ideya nitong Lightning Network, at naipaliwanag na marahil ni finaleshot2016 ng sapat kung bakit, ito ay nanatiling magandang mithiin pa lamang. Bago magamit ito ng mga katulad nating supporters at users ng Bitcoin, kailangan pa munang siguraduhin na talagang ligtas at maayos na nagagamit ito.

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Maganda sigurong gawan ng posibleng pros and cons ang Lightning Network.

Lahat naman ng tungkol sa Lightning Network maaaring ma-access online. Pero mas okay na rin na accessible sya dito sa local language mismo.

Two thumbs up sa malinaw na paliwanag ni OP tungkol sa LN!

Source: https://cointelegraph.com/lightning-network-101/what-is-lightning-network-and-how-it-works#where-when-and-why-will-it-be-used

Kaya kapag lumaki ang Lightning Network, darating yung panahon na hindi mo na kakailanganing isara yung payment channel.

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1mb lang paps, pero umaabot ng hanggang 2mb sa tulong ng SegWit. 

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Magandang madiscuss at masubukan din ng iba itong LN. Kaso karamihan kasi talaga sa mga end-users wala na silang pakielam sa technology sa likod ng LN o kahit ng Bitcoin mismo. Ang mahalaga sa kanila, magamit nila ng maayos. Yun ang kalimitang problema ng devs kasi kulang sa feedbacks.

Sana kahit tayo tayo muna dito sa local magpa-games tapos through LN ang reward since murang mura ang transaction fees, kahit 1k sats hindi nakakahinayang magsend.

So up for this thread. 

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Introduction

I wanted to discuss something new because I'm trying to open some topics that we should know and will encourage people to be active again here. We all know that scalability is the main problem since the release of Bitcoin.
In the quoted above, that is said by James Donald is referring about scalability na isa sa pinaka-problema sa bitcoin lalo na't dumadami ang user at lumalago ang community natin.




Ano ba ang scalability na tinatawag pagdating sa bitcoin?

Ang bitcoin scalability ay ang limit ng mga transaction na kayang i-process sa bitcoin network o ang tinatawag natin na blockchain. Alam na rin naman natin na limited lang yung blocks every minute at isipin mo na sobrang dami na ang nagta-transact sa blockchain natin.


So imagine, nagtataka tayo bakit ang bagal ng transaction ng bitcoin without knowing this kind of fact. Sa dinami-daming bitcoin user kabilang ka, naging congested na yung network kaya nagkakaroon ng mabagal proseso, that's why they're having a high amount of transaction fee. Gets ba? S


How the bitcoin will compete to the other platforms kung 7 lang naman ang kayang transaction bawat minuto? So dito na papasok ang Lightning Network.



Ano ang Lightning Network?

Before we go to Lightning Network, I just wanted to show a simple analogy na kung saan mae-explain ang current na kalagay ng Bitcoin Network or Blockchain.

For example, In the delivery service of an online shop.

Sorry sa analogy ko pero sana maintindihan niyo.

So this is how bitcoin network works, maraming proseso, maraming nodes, maraming dinadaan bago ma-complete yung whole transaction. So Basically, maraming involved na tao at platforms dahil lang sa iisang order mo sa Online shop. Ganyan ka-complex ang Bitcoin Network, ngayon gets mo na?

Through this analogy about Blockchain, mas maeexplain ko ng maayos ang Lightning Network. So ganito nagwowork ang Lightning Network;


Paano nangyari yon? It looks impossible pero if lahat ng tao ay interconnected to each other kahit na madaming proseso, it will be just take a little amount of time dahil sa Lightning Network. All of this will be made into a single transaction only.  


Paano gumagana ang Lightning Network?

Sa isang transaction lalo na't sa mga malalaking kumpanya na may partnerships sa ibang kumpanya, kung kinakailangan nilang mag-send ng btc dahil sa negosasyon, ang gagawin nalang is to create a channel in the Lightning Network. So ang Lightning Network ay nakakabawas ng load sa main blockchain.

So another analogy ulit about Lightning Network.
Gamitin nating halimbawa si coins.ph since isa siya sa pinakasikat na platform sa ating bansa.


If ever na gusto makipag-transaction din ni Platform/Company_1 kay Platform/Company_2.


Hindi na need gumawa ni Platform/Company_1 gumawa ng panibagong payment channel sapagkat pwede niyang padaanin ang BTC through payment channel nila ni coins.ph at maididirect ito sa Platform/Company_2. Gets ba?

Instead of creating a lot of active payment channels, pwede mong padaanin sa active payment channel ng kakilala mo na mayroong active payment channel sa gusto mong padalhan. Gets ba ulit? Ganyan ka interconnected ang Lightning Network and only 2 transactions have been made because of that. It can be made by creating multisignature wallet, at yung wallet na yon ay may access ang both party. They must also signed using private keys kung mayroon man silang kinukuhang pera sa channel na iyon at makukuha niyo lang ang pera once nag-closed na yung payment channel at matatanggap niyo yung pera base sa balance sheet na na-signed niyo using private keys.