Topic: Discussion on the legality of operating and investing in Bitcoin businesses (Read 1022 times)

and WTF is this quote mess you have here?

Weird that investment would be turned down.

Did u offer to buy shares at the market rate through GLBSE, and agree to the same terms as any other investor?

Yes. Basically I am considering alterantives after my own data cetner project went bollocks - too many people trying to squeeze me at the same time realizing they could up the price.

I inquired about a 1000 btc investment - did not want to get stuck just buying shares, and then any glbse operation is at least a little shady per definition, as everyone so far dodges the legal requirements of his home country... like I am sure SIN is not a registered business. Even if, there are regulations for share companies that are not followed.

Thought i contact them and try to get a little more info out - got a "not before mid of september". Still interested

Legally, its 100% fine. A company trading in Bitcoins does not need to be registered or anything like that, as it's all completely self-contained and off the grid as it were. You could draw a parallel with setting up a guild in World of Warcraft or EVE online that paid out in-game currency to its members.

Imagine if anyone that sold an item in World of Warcraft needed to register it with the tax man... I'm not sure the IRS accepts Warcraft gold as payment

The one thing that you are illegal on is income tax evasion when you eventually sell the Bitcoins for real-life money, you are required to pay income tax on any profit, much like WoW players selling swords on eBay are liable for income tax.

I think you could get around this if you sell Bitcoins and deposit the funds directly into an offshore account, I don't think that tax laws apply in that case. I think this is what some of the bigger WoW guilds do when they sell a lot of gold, but maybe worth reading up on first..

Essentially with regards tax, you do need to pay tax on profits earned in bitcoin, you must however convert those owed taxes to USD first. However as long as you don't convert your btc to USD via a bank  leaving a trail that the IRS can get at you're scott free.

Want to meet me in court?

Here we go:

* The company represents itself as company but has no  business license.
* Legally this is a very shady ground. I assume he is a US citizen, and the servers are in the US. He has solicitated shares in a public company on an OTC market not following any of the issues within the legislation and witout a fully legal prospectus. THere are some really nastyy lawys for seeking investors.
* I am quite sure every non total idiot lawyer will tell you that this is differeent from an Eve guild - as this is a real company with the goal to make money. A business liccense is the least of the problems.
* Accounting? Who audits the books? Does the company declare income and expeses as it should? Now here is the goal - Bitcoin may not be real life money, but they are valuable goods.

Not saying the operation in itself is bad, but hey - someone looses moeny here, takes him to court, then there is a PLENTHORA of legal problems coming. Including some hundred thousand in legal costs.

now, you thinking the tax law does not apply - some reality check. US citizens have to legally declare income on every income in the world they do. Wow guilds get away by tax evasion, but you will find that you dont possibly have shareholders suing them here.

This is the main problem. Basically, if he takes "real" money (not a small joke) and things get bad - a lawyer will start accusing a lot of formally bad things, from bad accounting to break of securities regulations. The result will be pretty much a desaster. I doubt (and it is clear from your statement that you fall into this) the investors are "qualified investors" by the definition of the law.

I only expect to be protected by the state when I have paid adequate taxes to the state to fund that protection.

Greater freedom (particularly from state control of the Bitcoin currency through anonymity of transactions) means greater individual responsibility.

If you want the state to protect your investments go invest in registered businesses operating in fiat currencies, there are plenty of them.

If you are willing to forego that protection, in exchange for greater potential returns - welcome to Bitcoin businesses.

This is why trust and reputation is so much more important in the Bitcoin world.

There is a good thread discussing this further here - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/what-does-a-free-market-mean-to-you-35667

Sure, I could argue this all day long.

You only need a business license if you operate with money. This company operates with bitcoins and is therefore unregulated.
Legally this is untested waters, if anything did go to court here, and I'm not sure exactly what he's meant to have done wrong anyway, then at best this would be a test case with minimal repercussions, at worst thrown out for lack of evidence of any wrongdoing.
It is a company with eh goal of making *bitcoins*, not money. There's an important distinction there. Bitcoins are not recognised as money, or even property, they are an imaginary construct which happen to be able to be bought and sold at the moment for real money, but this could change at any time.
They're not valuable goods, they aren't even physcial, and there is no copyright or intellectual property associated with a bitcoin. They are as close to "nothing" as a thing can be while still actually existing. The fact people pay money to own them is irrelevant, people also pay money for EVE credits.
the word is loses not looses, and anyone who has bought shares is doing so purely on trust, you have no recourse if the value tumbles, or the guy just runs off with all the bitcoins. Imagine trying to explain the fact you lost all your imaginary internet money investing in an anonymous pseudo-stockmarket site to a lawyer or a judge, you'd be laughed out of court. It's an extremely risky investment, but one which can pay big.
the larger WOW guilds are bigger and much better funded than any of the companies on the bitcoin stock exchange. The arguments about lost items and hacked accounts are just as serious as the ones you're making (ie not at all).

I have no idea what you just said, and I don't think you do either. There is no "real" money changing hands here, only Bitcoins, which I've already explained are not recognised as anything by any law in any country in the world.

There is some risk of a tax issue if you CASH OUT your Bitcoins in AMERICA, but this can be avoided perfectly legally by cashing out in a country with no tax such as the Cayman Islands. People do this with real money transactions all the time, it's called offshore tax mitigation.

You can also illegally avoid any tax implications by cashing out in shady ways like ukash vouchers etc, but I'm not sure this would be any cheaper than the legal offshore method.

Gratulations. You proove the ignorance of the masses.

it is quite obviousBTC have value - look at all the exchanges. Case prooven. It is quite clclear SIN oeprates with rel money. It is buying equipment and paying electrical bills to operate them. Point prooven. It is quite obvious he is running a business - pretending to be a share ompany and selling shares on an unregulated exchange to pay revenue. Point prooven.

You dont need to use money. For many many years for example MINING operations take CREDITS in GOLD - with the itnerest also paid in gold, from the mining proceeds. THis is legally totally tested ground.

EVERY company on GLBSE istrying to operate outsie the law.

now, here comes the real world: Noone cares whether or not YOU Are only interested in being protected by the state when you pay taxes there. Something goes wrong, someone sues, the state wont care about your arrogant snotty attitude. Any investor can sue on his local court possibly, and definitely in the court of residence of the SIN operator. Dont like that - well, as long as you are the judge in question that is as irrelevant as most american opinions are for the rest of the world. The court will take your not caring ass and make you pay.

Saying "it's quite obvious" doesn't prove anything. It may be "obvious" to you, but that doesn't make any difference in the eyes of the law. The law works on precedent, not what's "obvious", and there is no precedent here.


You're cute. You're talking about frontier mining contracts from the 1800's. At that time gold was a legally recognised currency, so they were in fact using money. Bitcoin is not a legally recognised currency.


Yes, however in this case "outside the law" simply means there are no laws that apply to this situation. It is, believe it or not, still a free country.

There are no laws surrounding Eve online guilds either, that doesn't stop them operating like a company with a board of directors, share holders, employees, wages and so on. All of this is paid in ISK, the Eve online currency which can be bought and sold for real money, just look at eBay to "proove" it. Eve guilds are much bigger, more profitable and more well organised than any of the companies on GLBSE. Moreover, massive thefts and dishonesty about investments is commonplace on EVE. So far nobody has batted an eyelid about them "operating outside the law", or tried to sue someone in the courts for stealing spaceships.


Oh no, please help me and protect me from this horrible "real world" you know so much about! You talk a lot about lawyers, courts and judges but I doubt you've ever even been to a courtroom. To bring a case to a judge you need evidence. Where's the evidence that the GLBSE company ever took any money from you?

You can buy Bitcoins from an exchange, the exchange might be operating illegally, nobody knows yet as it has never gone to court. So it's possible you can show bank records of money going from you to a bitcoin exchange and get that Bitcoin exchange shut down, but there's nothing connecting the exchange to the company in question so where's the complaint? Are you going to show the judge your Bitcoin transaction logs? What proof have you got that the payment ID you sent the coins to were this "company" you're suing?

You can also get Bitcoins through mining, what if some of your coins are from mining? Are you going to go to court with a copy of your electricity bill and show them that?

More to the point, how are you even going to get the name and address of the person you want to sue??

Good luck with your retarded lawsuit, I hope you get everything you want out of it.