Topic: DIY Seed Storage on a soda can (Read 585 times)

The association between gliph lines and correct bit is difficult to remember. These backups needs to be understandable by a casual user, if we won't there to assist them.
To me, the simpler, the better, and the extra risk of this complication is not worth the extra security it can (pun not intended) offer.

That's a bad idea and that's why I don't like it when people come up with their own ad hoc schemes.  The order of the glyphs or the words is important.  If you lose the order, then you need to use brute force, which is feasible for 12 (not for 24), but I do not understand why getting into all this trouble. 

Looking at this picture, dominoes come to mind. You can cut small pieces of stainless steel to the size of a domino and apply these glyphs to them. One glyph (seed phrases) per domino. Connect the plates to each other using bolts on both sides and you will get a solid, reliable structure that doesn't take up much space. This is how I would modernize this method.

I see the following problem:
You'll have to save the glyph's wordlist. Again on a piece of (big) metal and carefully hidden? Otherwise if lose this wordlist your glyphs become useless.

You can encrypt the seed-phrase in any way, not necessarily using glyphs. But the obvious disadvantage of encryption is the need for a wordlist and the occurrence of errors during decryption. Because of this, I would not use this method as the only one.

No, modern soda cans don't have any iron in them, it's all aluminum alloy with small percent of manganese and magnesium.
There are other material used for food cans but it's steel material, not iron.

No, they probably won't have a clue what the heck that is.
To me it looked liked characters from sci-fi movie, and I prefer having dots with number from words instead.
And if you want to encode something than it's better to use something like Seedkeeper cards from Satochip.

Of course, they are. Add any additional complexity to a standard recovery phrase, and you increase the possibility of losing your bitcoin protected with such a system. It doesn't even have to be this complex to get you in trouble. Add a 13th/25th-word passphrase and loss it, and your coins will be gone, unless the passphrase can be bruteforced. Mess up with your multisig, and you'll lock your coins away from yourself. Use a completely random derivation path (for whatever reason) without writing down what you used somewhere, and you have again lost your coins, unless you figure it out.

Here is my concern with such new ways of storing the Seed.  If something happens to us and a relative of ours finds this sheet.  Is it more likely for our relative to post the full code publicly asking for help than it would be if they found a list of 12 words?

The mystery of finding 12 words or 12 groups of alphabetical letters is easy to solve.

I looked up 'found 12 words on a piece of paper' and the first result was an Atomic Wallet page explaining what a 12 word backup Seed phrase is (https://support.atomicwallet.io/article/35-what-is-12-word-recovery-phrase).
I looked up 'found 12 words on a piece of metal' and the 22nd result is an Unchained article about Seed phrase backup methods (https://unchained.com/blog/seed-phrase-backup-methods-recording-paper-metal/).

Arguably, it is more likely to find the words on a piece of paper than on a piece of metal.  And the most relevant result for metal was already on a position 22 times lower than the relevant result for paper.

This means it is also so much easier to prevent some body who knows nothing about Bitcoin posting the full picture of the coded sheet on the Internet for some stranger to end up stealing the entire balance.

Now as a relative of the deceased who does not have any clue about their Bitcoin holdings or does know they were using Bitcoin but does not know how Bitcoin is actually stored.  How do you look up and find information for the Seed backup method described by OP without particularly mentioning 'Bitcoin soda can seed' among the search terms?  You can not really.  Try it out, I could not find a relevant result even after specifically mentioning 'soda can' in the search query, as I thought it may help tremendously.

So are the chances not higher to end up losing the Coins?

I know, but it may be a lot less flexible.  With the seed phrase, you just write it down and you can store it essentially all over.  Inside your house, within the ground, within the walls, in books... all over and in any size.  The decoding sheets are exceptionally long to be put away in a place that can go unnoticed, I think.  You could ignore the sheets and just write in a small text how to convert the glyphs to bits, but at that point the recovery will be another issue, since no software I know permits you to enter bits rather than words. 

Regarding binary encoding format, I would prefer for SEED words  that one which is based on the clock-dial. Such format is easy for  application at using washers as the storage media. For instance, the washer holding the word "sausage" ( dec number 1534, binary number 10111111110 in BIP39 list) would look like this


Digits near the edge of the washer are placed just for guidance in  the bit positions. Vertical is the setting out line.

Save the decoding sheets on your computer. Print them out, laminate the paper, and store them somewhere safely. The condition of seed backups, which most people keep on paper, will also deteriorate with the passing of time. Check their condition from time to time and make new backups if necessary. The way you approach the physical backup doesn't change just because we now have glyphs. The same care should be applied.

Where to download and save?  What electronic device or storage medium does not break after a few years?  I know I don't need BitCan, but that means I will always have this decoding model.  How can I ensure I keep it for the next 10 years?  There is a lot of information that I cannot write down easily, as with a short phrase. 

If you encoded a seed like this properly, you should test decoding it as well. It's no different from any other backup system. If you write down standard words wrongly, your backup won't be valid either. Download and save the decoding template. That's what you need to recover the correct words. Nothing changes if BitCan disappears tomorrow. You don't need them for the recovery. You only need to match the symbols of your seed phrase to the correct words on the template.

Honestly i'm more interested with it's encoding format rather than usage of soda can. It's easy to understand since basically it's just certain line indicate certain position of binary bits.


You could also save the website or website's source code.

I know, but it still makes me anxious!   

There is no need to refer to the site or other,  the glyphs are just a way for writing the BIP39 binaries.. 0 for the first word-> converted to binary numeral system = 0 ,  the last word (2047) converted to binary = 11111111111 .

( Order from right to left )

                             



   You can just remember it, it is pretty easy !

I would add one more drawback.  Only BitCan offers support for it.  For what duration is this project being developed?  To what extent has it been tested?  All I am worried about is that using the glyphs alone will not be enough to recover the seed phrase in the distant future.  Not like BIP39, which is compatible with nearly all HD wallets.  The process of translating glyphs to bits and back again to words has already caused me anxiety.

Also that Cans are note from pure aluminum, they contains Iron too and are subject to rust !

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I talked about it earlier somewhere on the forum.. About writing on metal plates, I wondered that it will be stronger and easier to piercing the plates, but the point is that you can use Morse Code to writing using a smaller and a larger drills. or just one drill and use two non distant holes for the ( -- ) longue character!

F.E the word "WORD" could be written like this:



Or another way that coul be easier is to use the Pigpen or Masonic cipher (Link)

The way to use will be by replacing by (Arrows) and others representings, I explain:


For the firsts grids will representing by arrows:  ↖ substitute for A, ↑ for B, (a single dot for E) !  so will use small and large drill to write the arrow, small hole to point the center and large in the place of the arrow's head. F.E:  [ →  =   ( .   . ) ]

For the second grids could use triangle dots, F.E  (  · :  ) for Y !

Using aluminum for storing anything important is cheap but stupid way of doing it.
Melting point of aluminum is 660°C (1220°F) and thin can foil will melt in a second, with seed backup gone forever.
Stainless Steel melting point is 1375 – 1530°C (2500-2785°F) and it is cheaper than soda can if you buy stainless steel washers in your local store.
I also don't like complicated encoding and decoding system in bitcan.world that looks like something coming from a sci-fi movie  

The output would be something like this which is easier to observe.


Bitcanworld is recoding it to make the wallet seed and instead of representing it using 3 of 11 segments into a form of 1 of 11 segments which makes it harder to observe.

Sure. Any  glyph image consisted of 11 segments can be used to represent the order (in binary form)  of SEED words in BIP 39 list.

On the pictures  you can see two examples of such images that are a bit different from that one proposed by bitcanworld . If  we define that each segment in these  glyph images represents the binary bit in state of "1" when the section is filled and in the state of  "0" when it's empty then we may use them to present any BIP 39 word in the same manner that bitcanworld did.  

Encryption/decryption system depends on the sections' sequence order chosen.


BTW, for the stainless steel washers it's more appropriate to use the binary cipher based on the "clock dial". In this case point  on the dial  would represent  the binary bit  in the of "1" when the point is punched  (let's say with the center-punch tool)  and in the state of  "0"  if it is not punched.

What exactly am I looking at? Maybe you can explain it some more?

It would be disastrous if you lost the decryption algorithm or it disappeared from the Internet with no way to get it back. But I agree with you, I prefer a simpler solution over one that is too complex. You should also think of your heirs and look at things from their perspective.

As a matter of fact this glyph system is nothing more than 11 segments cipher that allows to encrypt 3 nibble word. My quick search resulted in two  types of such systems already used in display elements:


As to the use for SEED encryption. In my view, it would be a potential point of failure  for those   who decide to use such system  for storing their SEED phrases,  words fail me. My firm confidence is that SEED  must be stored  with an unambiguous clarity.

You can also write it using the (binaries), for example using the Washers method  just by alternating two material types of washers (FE. copper and steel), so you will need 11 washer for each word. And it is really interesting especially for this case as for its advantage of giving a very strong and resistant alternative within everyone's reach !!



Gold do !  

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  Here's the word " Access " F.E. :

                          

Aluminum is characterized by ease of formation, so it is easy to encoding using glyphs, but replacing it with any other metal will lead to a more difficult result, unless the shapes are to be printed, and here the problem of trust in a third party will arise.

I do not remember that there is a metal that has the same properties as aluminum and can withstand high temperatures.

No. I have never seen a similar system before.

All of us have a responsibility to teach our heirs and loved-ones how to access and what to do with backups. That doesn't change now with the introduction of a glyphs backup system. Someone who has never seen a 12/24 seed recovery word would have no idea what they are looking at, let alone glyphs.

You shouldn't lose any of the elements (the lines). You need the correct structure to decode the word. You should already have at least one paper backup somewhere. It's from that backup that you set up the glyphs recovery system.

I know. I mention that in my pros and cons section. You can use the glyphs to make backups on other materials.

It is good, but choosing aluminum for storing seeds is not good, especially since it is susceptible to corrosion, compared to stainless steel, which is less susceptible to deformation or bending and tolerates heat well.

It will be more difficult to decrypt the code in recovery if the slightest distortion occurs, as encoding the word using a single code makes any distortion occur in a row or column, leading to the loss of 3 words and a longer time for brute force.



One mistake will increase the number of available options. If there were two rows for each word, it would be better.

I like it, it's a nice and handy way to store the seed on metal.
And even if the "alphabet" is not widely known, it's easy to keep it... pretty much everywhere at hand, even in cloud, since it's public information.

Some warnings still apply: it's not a standard method and you may forget or, even worse, if you're gone suddenly, your heirs will not know what those strange glyphs are and may just throw away "that junk". Keep in mind I talk here about decades.

I agree, I think this is the most interesting part because we can use the same method on a variety of materials and processes (writing, scratching, punching...).

But, I do have a couple of concerns...

Is BitCan's glyph system a widely recognized standard? For example, if something happens to us, will anyone else be able to figure out what this is all about?

Because glyphs represent whole words, what happens if we lose even a single element? For example, one punch didn't go all the way through, or corrosion may only eat away a small part of it...

Backups using the first four letters of each word might be a safer option. Even if we lose a single letter, we'll still be able to decode words with high probability.

We have heard of storing seeds on paper and metal and now there is a new method to do it on soda cans.
The company BitCan has released its solution for a DIY Bitcoin Seed Storage.

What's interesting here isn't the material used to store the seed but the type of encoding using glyphs.

What you need to create your seed

• A soda can
• A flat-head screwdriver
• A pen
• A piece of paper
• A printer to print out the template

BitCan has created a template that anyone can print, and it looks like this:



After you print the template, you can translate your seed words into glyphs. You should already have a securely generated seed. Each word from the wordlist has its unique pattern, which you can see on the website. Here is an example:



Setup Process

• Using the table with the glyphs, draw your seed words on the printed template.
• Stick the filled-out template on a flattened soda can.
• Take a screwdriver and etch the glyphs into the can. Use a light hammer if necessary.
• Double-check if everything is correct, and find a place to store the metal backup.

Here are a few pictures of how it could look:


Decoding Instructions

• BitCan recommends writing down all glyphs on a piece of paper. Better yet, use the provided template.
• Look at the bottom square of each glyph first to identify which starting letter the symbol belongs to.
• After that, identify the upper square to find the correct word.
• An alternative is using binary search to go through the word list.

Pros

1. It's inconspicuous. You wouldn't know what it is even if you saw it somewhere. Even those familiar with seed phrases wouldn't know what they are looking at unless they know about this seed storage method.
2. It's cheap/free. It requires zero investment, assuming you own an aluminum can, a pen, a screwdriver, a piece of paper, and a printer.
3. Easy to hide because it's thin and small.
4. Can be hidden in plain sight. If you are interested in ancient civilizations and have items or artifacts in your home, you could hide the plate there and make it seem like they are symbols from ancient history.
5. It provides protection against water and moisture.
6. You can use the glyphs system to make seed backups on better-quality materials than aluminum soda cans!

Cons 

1. It won't protect you against heat from a house fire.
2. Aluminum is more prone to corrosion than other more durable metals.
3. The encoding and especially the decoding process is time-consuming.
4. The possibility of making a mistake is greater than when backing up common seed words.   


Source:
https://bitcan.world/