Do a lot of western governments like bitcoin and dislike banks?

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Quote from: ASHLIUSZ on March 18, 2019, 04:37:11 AM

Quote from: UNOE on March 14, 2019, 07:24:42 PM

Our government in Croatia probably did not even know what is Bitcoin, they are pretty negative about this promising technology, and mostly did not care about blockchain and Bitcoin. I think that they have totally wrong approach.

Same as Croatia more countries around the world oppose bitcoin without knowing better about the technology and the need for the cryptocurrency. Slowly the ban gets lifted from the countries helping with the increasing adoption and use in the global market.

Adoption by citizens will gradually be the proof to governments that they have no choice than to adopt it too if they don’t want the banking institution generally to become useless.

Most individuals and merchants are now seriously introducing the use of crypto currencies as payment, some are gradually introducing the crypto debit card services for the withdrawing of cryptocurrencies, all these will eventually push the government into it too since it is a system they cannot control even when they tend to ban it.

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Not sure there's really a correlation between economy and the attitude towards Bitcoin when it comes to official government stances, but there's certainly a lot less trust in the banking institution even from the state, particularly after the recent practical bankruptcies of significant economies in the past 10 years.

We've had those scenes in Greece where people couldn't withdraw their life savings and the state blackmailed by the EU. The same in Iceland only 11 years ago all three private big banks in the small nation defaulted. It still was the biggest economic collapse in recent memory in the West.

But it's important to note that alternatives usually don't involve something as drastic as Bitcoin. Iceland, for example, is still somewhat anti-Bitcoin.

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Quote from: UNOE on March 14, 2019, 07:24:42 PM

Our government in Croatia probably did not even know what is Bitcoin, they are pretty negative about this promising technology, and mostly did not care about blockchain and Bitcoin. I think that they have totally wrong approach.

Same as Croatia more countries around the world oppose bitcoin without knowing better about the technology and the need for the cryptocurrency. Slowly the ban gets lifted from the countries helping with the increasing adoption and use in the global market.

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Quote from: UNOE on March 14, 2019, 07:24:42 PM

Our government in Croatia probably did not even know what is Bitcoin, they are pretty negative about this promising technology, and mostly did not care about blockchain and Bitcoin. I think that they have totally wrong approach.

Sooner or Later, they will get to know about Bitcoin either by social media or through massive usage of it by their citizens which they will definitely investigate and understand what it is.

Most government naturally will be slow in taking decision that will affect the citizen so that they will not be blamed for any misfortune that befalls citizen through crypto in case there is any but this fear is because they don’t have the full knowledge of the whole system but I believe as they get exposed to it, they will see the benefit to them and your government.

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Our government in Croatia probably did not even know what is Bitcoin, they are pretty negative about this promising technology, and mostly did not care about blockchain and Bitcoin. I think that they have totally wrong approach.

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Quote from: shield132 on March 14, 2019, 06:47:06 PM

You say fiat isn't backed by anything of real value. For you Gold is this value, am I right? But has gold been backed by something? No, then how has it value? It's psycological factor, we measure everything by one unique thing so to my mind it doesn't matter if we use gold coins or paper notes. But the worst thing here is banking system, not actually fiat, the way bank systems are managed. Solution of bitcoin is that we can't create more than 21 million while governments can print as much paper as they want and cause inflation, they won't be able to do it with bitcoin.

There's a finite amount of physical gold you can hold. I'd actually retract that and say caesium is a great store of value because it costs about $100 per gram to buy and a similar amount to extract.

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Quote from: jackg on March 08, 2019, 12:28:22 PM

I've been questioning this for a while and most economists say that fiat is a scam or a lie as the central banks are selling people a promise we will pay them back.

It seems to me as if fiat came in when it was needed to help solve the issues of carrying heavy gold for big transactions but now we have bitcoin there seems to be no other real use for it once bitcoin gets adopted by the masses (or other cryptocurrency).

It feels like fiat was made by the government without them knowing the risk as to what it would potentially lead to in the central banks artificially inflating it so much.

I was watching a video recently of the roman empire currency where they used to clip coins and melt down the clippings in order to inflate the currency - exactly what has been done since fiat hasn't been backed by anything of real value bitcoin is the same but its limited.

You say fiat isn't backed by anything of real value. For you Gold is this value, am I right? But has gold been backed by something? No, then how has it value? It's psycological factor, we measure everything by one unique thing so to my mind it doesn't matter if we use gold coins or paper notes. But the worst thing here is banking system, not actually fiat, the way bank systems are managed. Solution of bitcoin is that we can't create more than 21 million while governments can print as much paper as they want and cause inflation, they won't be able to do it with bitcoin.

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Quote from: omonuyak on March 14, 2019, 04:03:59 PM

I don't think western governments like bitcoin much as the like bank. If they like bitcoin they could have adopted it since. I think bitcoin is been like by individuals and programmers and that is why it is very difficult to get it into mainstream financial institutions.

Quite a few international banks recognise their ledgers via blockchain technology in order to send money representing assets to each other so it can't be said that banks hate bitcoin they just don't want other people to use it.

Although the ones who want to escape the banks clutches and the ones who want to program with it or see it as an innovative thing. If you don't understand how it works at its fundamental level when you buy in to bitcoin (sure its what we do with cash) but when people do it with bitcoin it does show what they're trying to escape... Especially in countries with hyperinflation as mentioned above.

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I don't think western governments like bitcoin much as the like bank. If they like bitcoin they could have adopted it since. I think bitcoin is been like by individuals and programmers and that is why it is very difficult to get it into mainstream financial institutions.

Harlot

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A lot countries have suffered from over printing their currency too much Venezuela is the most recent country to to be victims of their own currency. The thing is fiat currency is backed by their country's economy with all countries have debt to each other printing more money won't be a solution as hyperinflation will just be there problem. So if they want to make their local fiat currency more valuable all they have to do is to pat off their debt aa well as improve their economy.it may look crazy but the world markets are also the ones valuing our money and the same principle for supply and demand is applicable.

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Well, when it comes to crypto currency and the western world, we will say it is a 50:50 thing and in has much as some prominent leaders there are serious fighting the adoption of cryto currency, many of the big time investors into the crypto market are still from there.

For fiat, it has been in existence for a very long term which is dated back centuries and it would, so as long as technology awareness is concerned, general acceptance and illiteracy in most part of the world, it might be difficult for crypto currency to put an end to FIAT, it can only be an optional one.

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I don't think the government has big issue with the technology, but you should know that the central bank controls the government and they will do all what the central banks tell them to do. Bitcoin is one of the biggest threat to the financial system of today making it a big threat to central banks and other financial institutions that have been extorting our money and making us poor just for them to remain in power and control over us. I know they won't want to accept it, but I can assure them that it's not a choice but a must.

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Which country is this? I remember in 2014/2015 my central bank wanted to make a cryptocurrency which is kinda funny to look back on because the generally haven't done much other than cancel the idea.

Also we were mainly discussing western governments so that's what prions would be referring to. Non-western governments have taken a diverse approach to cryptos.

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Quote from: orions.belt19 on March 10, 2019, 10:01:03 PM

Quote from: bitbunnny on March 10, 2019, 02:48:01 PM

This is not so simple. Some governments maybe don't like banks very much but they are still depending on them because that is how economy is functioning. Western governments mainly support progress and Bitcoin is that category. They also realize that cryptocurrencies have become inevitable part of society and they should accept it or at least not ban it. But they will never replace fiat with Bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency, that is the truth.

So to speak, governments have been tolerating them. I think governments don't like banks very much because of how they don't have complete control or authority among them. In retrospect, they are able to circumvent the government's clutches in some ways. Also, the government has no choice but to rely on banks.

With regards to regulating crypto, I believe that governments have no choice but to tolerate them as well since they cannot eliminate its presence in the country. Some have chosen to completely ban it to avoid complications of regulating or compliance but others have chosen to impose their own regulations for bitcoin so that they may have some control over its adoption.

That is for the countries who are not corrupt and has transparency to the fullest in their system but for most government who does not operate a transparent system, they are the bank themselves which makes the government the problem of the financial institutions and that is why they are fighting against the crypto currency system because the fiat system pay them more.

We have a lot of government that dislike the crypto system, like in my country, the government are the central bank themselves and they quite kick against the adoption of this so called crypto but it is just a matter of time before they have no choice than to prefer it to the banking system.

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Quote from: Herbert2020 on March 11, 2019, 09:20:34 AM

as for banks, the problem has always been with the corruption of them. they seem to be doing whatever they want and get away with it too with bailouts like after they ruined the global economy in 2008.

It really does seem like governments don't care about this, because banks messing up gives them reason to fine them with mega sums, and the banks themselves seem fine with it as well.

Overall, the profits they managed to gain by breaking the law has always been much higher than the fines they end up paying. It's nothing more than collateral damage for banks, which is the worst part here.

The very fact that governments know this, but still don't raise their fines to match the profit margins of the banks they fine says enough. As long as this doesn't change banks will continue ripping people off.

Kevin77

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Economists and governments are different. There are two types of economists, one is acedemist that is working in a college and writing thesis paper on how economy works and they are very aware of the fact that our current financial system can't be sustained and that is why we constantly have resets (financial crisis) that destroys all stocks at once and starts to go back up, if one stock goes down people leave it and it goes down even more destroying the company but if all stocks go down there is no reason to switch stocks.

Nonetheless, some economists are working in banks which they know the same things others know but they know they will be getting richer and richer on this unsustainable system, so even tough it makes poor people poorer they know it makes them richer.

Governments only care what benefits them, if crypto benefits them than they love it, if banks benefits them than they love that.

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Quote from: exstasie on March 09, 2019, 08:07:09 PM

A much bigger threat than government bans is global economic crash/depression. I'm not sure what will happen to speculative assets in that situation. I guess it might depend whether fiat currencies stay viable in the next big crash.

That's going to be a fascinating event for sure. I'm afraid that if a global ecomical depression hits the world too soon, Bitcoin will be sold just as hard as anything else that's speculative, which is why I am perfectly happy with relatively strong economies right now. Bitcoin really needs time to actually become Gold 2.0 and it seems that it has all the time it needs to do so.

Sure, one could say that even Gold might be sold off hard, but Bitcoin being accepted as Gold 2.0 severely increases the odds of it to outperform everything around it instead of being dumped without a second thought.

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Quote from: jackg on March 08, 2019, 12:28:22 PM

exactly what has been done since fiat hasn't been backed by anything of real value bitcoin is the same but its limited.

i still don't get why this argument is a thing! why does currency have to be backed by anything to have value? it has never been like this! from early days people have used a lot of things a currency in the sense of "medium of exchange". for example ages ago "arrows" were used as a currency! they weren't backed by anything. but they had value because of their utility. and of course there was a finite number of them in circulation too.
that also explains bitcoin very well.

as for banks, the problem has always been with the corruption of them. they seem to be doing whatever they want and get away with it too with bailouts like after they ruined the global economy in 2008.

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As per history, always western leads and rest are following Cheesy

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Due to higher literacy rate and readiness to adopt new things and more importantly modernized thinking, western people and government are marching forward always to new revolutions and this may continue in crypto adoptions too.

For example, when almost all the countries were silent or neural on bitcoins by 2014 after bitcoin peaked above $1000 for the first time, only few European countries opened their stand about cryptos like they declared that they will treat cryptos as asset whereas most eastern countries are not doing anything about cryptos even in 2019.

Quote from: jackg on March 08, 2019, 12:28:22 PM

most economists say that fiat is a scam or a lie as the central banks are selling people a promise we will pay them back.

Yes, it is a lie with the hope of infinite "hand-over" among citizens so that never need to pay back.

Quote from: jackg on March 08, 2019, 12:28:22 PM

fiat came in when it was needed to help solve the issues of carrying heavy gold for big transactions but now we have bitcoin there seems to be no other real use for it once bitcoin gets adopted by the masses.

For the exact same reason on-which fiat replaced gold, now it is time for bitcoin to replace fiat. History repeats itself.

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Quote from: jackg on March 08, 2019, 12:28:22 PM

I've been questioning this for a while and most economists say that fiat is a scam or a lie as the central banks are selling people a promise we will pay them back.

It seems to me as if fiat came in when it was needed to help solve the issues of carrying heavy gold for big transactions but now we have bitcoin there seems to be no other real use for it once bitcoin gets adopted by the masses (or other cryptocurrency).

It feels like fiat was made by the government without them knowing the risk as to what it would potentially lead to in the central banks artificially inflating it so much.

I was watching a video recently of the roman empire currency where they used to clip coins and melt down the clippings in order to inflate the currency - exactly what has been done since fiat hasn't been backed by anything of real value bitcoin is the same but its limited.

It is a known fact that central banks were trying to be their slaves by making deflation increases every year so we need to work more to pay the debts we got.

But people here understand that why we need bitcoin that fiat?

No,most of the people here to make more fiat money by suing th volatility so how it will get mass adoption.We need to let them know importance of decentralization.

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Quote from: bitbunnny on March 10, 2019, 02:48:01 PM

This is not so simple. Some governments maybe don't like banks very much but they are still depending on them because that is how economy is functioning. Western governments mainly support progress and Bitcoin is that category. They also realize that cryptocurrencies have become inevitable part of society and they should accept it or at least not ban it. But they will never replace fiat with Bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency, that is the truth.

So to speak, governments have been tolerating them. I think governments don't like banks very much because of how they don't have complete control or authority among them. In retrospect, they are able to circumvent the government's clutches in some ways. Also, the government has no choice but to rely on banks.

With regards to regulating crypto, I believe that governments have no choice but to tolerate them as well since they cannot eliminate its presence in the country. Some have chosen to completely ban it to avoid complications of regulating or compliance but others have chosen to impose their own regulations for bitcoin so that they may have some control over its adoption.

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This is not so simple. Some governments maybe don't like banks very much but they are still depending on them because that is how economy is functioning. Western governments mainly support progress and Bitcoin is that category. They also realize that cryptocurrencies have become inevitable part of society and they should accept it or at least not ban it. But they will never replace fiat with Bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency, that is the truth.

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Here's a clue. When tiny Marshall Islands wanted to sever ties with the US dollar and gain back some form of sovereignty with its own currency, it wasn't just other central banks that got up and cried foul. Good old World Bank itself came down from its high seat and warned it not to step out of line. Guess how the World Bank came about and who's in charge.

And this for a small central bank digital currency... not even a proper crypto. Imagine if it had said "we're going to use Bitcoin".

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The economist from the western are more open minded and had witnessed how the central bank and fiat make the economic become unstable and causing the global economic crisis, the high inflation rate in some country causing the value of the money ia decreasing and it affect people's saving, and when bitcoin was created, it gives people way to decrease the inflation effect that cause by the fiat, this make investors and expert to put a heavy focus on bitcoin and become the option when they want to invest

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"inflation is a good thing" no no no no no...

Inflation is helpful as it keeps the banks running. It is not a good thing...
Deflation is kinda bad because then you just sit on your money and wait for the price to go down. Bitcoin has its own inflation too (altcoins) so it shouldnt enter a deflationary state hopefully. Deflation rewards savers inflation rewards borrowers...

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Quote from: 1Referee on March 09, 2019, 06:47:32 PM

Quote from: magneto on March 08, 2019, 06:16:23 PM

Though, it's very difficult to see governments being positive on bitcoin on a worldwide scale any time soon.

Governments not being in consensus is a great thing. I don't mind the mixture of governments being 'for' and against Bitcoin. It keeps things in balance, because if governments globally would agree that Bitcoin is a great invention that should be adopted, they just as easily could pool their efforts and ban the crap out of it.

Bitcoin so far has gotten an easy ride through its existence. I really believed that we would face more resistance from governments, but they have been pretty mild overall.

The fact that governments are competing with one another is great for Bitcoin's viability. There can't be any consensus to ban it because many governments realize they actually want the economic growth related to Bitcoin/crypto companies and investment. And they're probably becoming fearful of being left behind.

A much bigger threat than government bans is global economic crash/depression. I'm not sure what will happen to speculative assets in that situation. I guess it might depend whether fiat currencies stay viable in the next big crash.

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Quote from: 1Referee on March 09, 2019, 06:47:32 PM

Quote from: magneto on March 08, 2019, 06:16:23 PM

Though, it's very difficult to see governments being positive on bitcoin on a worldwide scale any time soon.

Governments not being in consensus is a great thing. I don't mind the mixture of governments being 'for' and against Bitcoin. It keeps things in balance, because if governments globally would agree that Bitcoin is a great invention that should be adopted, they just as easily could pool their efforts and ban the crap out of it.

Bitcoin so far has gotten an easy ride through its existence. I really believed that we would face more resistance from governments, but they have been pretty mild overall.

I think that it would be beneficial if the government would support bitcoin as an alternative payment platform. Assuming that they support it, an imposition of tax on every transaction may happen but it would provide benefits to the public through healthcare systems, etc.
The downside is, it defeats the purpose of having a decentralized form of payment which is free from any third-party regulation. In addition, bitcoin's volatility is what makes it attractive for investors as one can yield large amounts of profit in a short amount of time.

Quote from: jackg on March 08, 2019, 12:28:22 PM

It feels like fiat was made by the government without them knowing the risk as to what it would potentially lead to in the central banks artificially inflating it so much.

Inflation is in fact, a great thing but what makes it harmful is hyperinflation or deflation. Inflation is a tool to control the value of money. Some countries specifically target a percentage of inflation quarterly (i.e. 2-4% of inflation).

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Quote from: magneto on March 08, 2019, 06:16:23 PM

Though, it's very difficult to see governments being positive on bitcoin on a worldwide scale any time soon.

Governments not being in consensus is a great thing. I don't mind the mixture of governments being 'for' and against Bitcoin. It keeps things in balance, because if governments globally would agree that Bitcoin is a great invention that should be adopted, they just as easily could pool their efforts and ban the crap out of it.

Bitcoin so far has gotten an easy ride through its existence. I really believed that we would face more resistance from governments, but they have been pretty mild overall.

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Quote from: jackg on March 08, 2019, 12:28:22 PM

I've been questioning this for a while and most economists say that fiat is a scam or a lie as the central banks are selling people a promise we will pay them back.

It seems to me as if fiat came in when it was needed to help solve the issues of carrying heavy gold for big transactions but now we have bitcoin there seems to be no other real use for it once bitcoin gets adopted by the masses (or other cryptocurrency).

It feels like fiat was made by the government without them knowing the risk as to what it would potentially lead to in the central banks artificially inflating it so much.

I was watching a video recently of the roman empire currency where they used to clip coins and melt down the clippings in order to inflate the currency - exactly what has been done since fiat hasn't been backed by anything of real value bitcoin is the same but its limited.

You are right,but the inflaiton of fiat currencies is a little bit exaggerated.The US dollar and the euro are pretty stable,despite the fact that the ECB and Federal reserve system keep printing trillions of USD/euro.
Anyway,the fiat system will collapse sooner or later,we just have to wait for this to happen.

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Quote from: jackg on March 08, 2019, 12:28:22 PM

I've been questioning this for a while and most economists say that fiat is a scam or a lie as the central banks are selling people a promise we will pay them back.

It seems to me as if fiat came in when it was needed to help solve the issues of carrying heavy gold for big transactions but now we have bitcoin there seems to be no other real use for it once bitcoin gets adopted by the masses (or other cryptocurrency).

It feels like fiat was made by the government without them knowing the risk as to what it would potentially lead to in the central banks artificially inflating it so much.

I was watching a video recently of the roman empire currency where they used to clip coins and melt down the clippings in order to inflate the currency - exactly what has been done since fiat hasn't been backed by anything of real value bitcoin is the same but its limited.

The difference is that fiat currency can be controlled by a central entity, and allows the government to do debt financing. While bitcoin doesn't allow this to happen because of the fact that it's decentralised.

So no, I don't think that governments like bitcoin at all. However, a lot are regulating bitcoin because they are able to get tax revenue this way, and obviously control what the third party services surrounding bitcoin can and can't do.

I do agree with the fact that bitcoin basically combines the convenience of fiat, electronic payments with the store of value aspect of gold and silver. Though, it's very difficult to see governments being positive on bitcoin on a worldwide scale any time soon.

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Quote from: Gravel Coin (GRV) on March 08, 2019, 01:11:47 PM

Central banks know the risk of monetary policy in the FIAT currency and the risks of debt bubble growing. They have many strategies to manager this, for a while.

True, and that's how Central Banks, together with the governments are still standing right now even with their policies of creating money out of thin air to "stabilize" or "stimulate" the economy. IMO, Central Banks are the "legal scammers" and their monetary policies are the legal scams being perpetrated together with the government without us, the citizens who always pay the bill knowing. They know perfectly well about the risk of inflating their own papers and metals so much, they just turn a blind eye against it because it's what's best for all of us--or so they think it really is.

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Majority of adoption were happening around the western world in comparison to the other continents. Westerners were much into the technology usage and the same has made them continue using bitcoin into various Marketplaces. Banks were into the primary use all around, and bitcoin with other cryptocurrencies serving as the alternate to the traditional fiat system.

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Bitcoin would facilitate transactions, but fiat is already a digital currency and transacting online is much easier now, some would argue as easy as it could get.
I don't think fiat was created to reduce the burden of carrying gold bars, it was a currency that could be created and controlled. Bitcoin can not be, could the solution be creating another currency to serve as the universal currency?

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Quote from: jackg on March 08, 2019, 12:28:22 PM

I've been questioning this for a while and most economists say that fiat is a scam or a lie as the central banks are selling people a promise we will pay them back.

It seems to me as if fiat came in when it was needed to help solve the issues of carrying heavy gold for big transactions but now we have bitcoin there seems to be no other real use for it once bitcoin gets adopted by the masses (or other cryptocurrency).

It feels like fiat was made by the government without them knowing the risk as to what it would potentially lead to in the central banks artificially inflating it so much.

I was watching a video recently of the roman empire currency where they used to clip coins and melt down the clippings in order to inflate the currency - exactly what has been done since fiat hasn't been backed by anything of real value bitcoin is the same but its limited.

Central banks know the risk of monetary policy in the FIAT currency and the risks of debt bubble growing. They have many strategies to manager this, for a while. But it always get back to the holders. When you learn how system works, your can get free of it, you take out the matrix.

jackg

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I've been questioning this for a while and most economists say that fiat is a scam or a lie as the central banks are selling people a promise we will pay them back.

It seems to me as if fiat came in when it was needed to help solve the issues of carrying heavy gold for big transactions but now we have bitcoin there seems to be no other real use for it once bitcoin gets adopted by the masses (or other cryptocurrency).

It feels like fiat was made by the government without them knowing the risk as to what it would potentially lead to in the central banks artificially inflating it so much.

I was watching a video recently of the roman empire currency where they used to clip coins and melt down the clippings in order to inflate the currency - exactly what has been done since fiat hasn't been backed by anything of real value bitcoin is the same but its limited.

Topic: Do a lot of western governments like bitcoin and dislike banks? (Read 350 times)