Do exchanges manipulate order books, add fake transactions?

Pursuer

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Quote from: Daisy14 on October 10, 2016, 05:37:25 AM

I can't say if exchanges fake volume or not but even if they do, I believe you should be able to sell your coins and get your money even if you are trading with a bot.

manipulation have a lot of different forms.
it can be a simple popular way of manipulation by pumping a coin, which is good and we can all use to our own advantage.
but the manipulation can be in other forms like showing fake orders and fake walls to move the market in one direction or the other and this can be against what we want most of the time.

Daisy14

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I can't say if exchanges fake volume or not but even if they do, I believe you should be able to sell your coins and get your money even if you are trading with a bot.

Shiroslullaby

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Quote from: gentlemand on October 03, 2016, 12:19:16 PM

I seem to remember someone ex OKcoin saying the exchange had its employees trading away with accounts provided for them. No idea whether that's just bitter lies of course.

There were multiple sources from OKcoin employees saying they were told to move coins around just to make the volumes look higher.
Probably when the site first started to generate traffic and make it look more popular and encourage more people to trade there.

Its obvious if you look at any exchange and pick a coin with high volume, there are tons of bots doing trading.
Who is running these bots and for what reason is hard to say.

BitHodler

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Quote from: Rostadom on October 09, 2016, 04:43:37 AM

They will be playing with themselves if they do that. Maybe if a dev of a certain altcoin contacts them to manipulate order books and add fake transactions, they will do it for money. Otherwise, doing all of those stuffs will just be a waste of time and effort because at the end of the day, they are not going to earn any money at all.

I don't know that for sure, just pure thinking. Maybe there are some stuffs like this happening but it's just that it's not a good way for exchange sites admins to spend their time.

Exchanges have no other choice than to add fake orders to make the spread between buy and ask as small as possible.

If they don't do it, then the gap between certain price levels will be too big, where even a tiny executed sell order in potential can get the price to drop with 1% or so.

They want to attract traders with well stacked order books, so yes, they will continue doing so.

Rostadom

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They will be playing with themselves if they do that. Maybe if a dev of a certain altcoin contacts them to manipulate order books and add fake transactions, they will do it for money. Otherwise, doing all of those stuffs will just be a waste of time and effort because at the end of the day, they are not going to earn any money at all.

I don't know that for sure, just pure thinking. Maybe there are some stuffs like this happening but it's just that it's not a good way for exchange sites admins to spend their time.

coinzat

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Young but I'm not that bold

any exchange can fake orders and fake volume easily.but for bitcoin, it is hard to manipulate the price because there are many other exchanges out there. it is not one single exchange like some altcoins have

mirakal

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Quote from: wintermeasures on October 07, 2016, 08:51:59 PM

Quote from: someone111 on September 22, 2016, 03:03:24 PM

How do I know, all orders in the order books are real?

The one who owns server server could easily add some fake orders. As well as add some transactions under last transactions that did not actually happen.

Why? To manipulate the market. To cause artificial pumps. They can buy any time and cause a pump anytime. Then dump for profit. I guess, this works best with smaller capitalized coins? (With big coins, I suppose, if there are at least a legit exchanges, few people would fall for the fake pump.)

This should be very tempting for the owners of an exchange since it's low risk and kinda a money printing machine?

Let's take for example yobit. No names. No faces. I have no way to verify their identity. If I had coins there and they run, I had probably no legal means either?

Yes Bro Its Possible that A Website Do This But If You Are Using a Legit and Realible Website Then I Can Tell You That a Legit Website Can't Do This Because They Don't Want to Loss Their Trust and Their Users.....
I am Using Yobit.net And Poloniex.com And I Don't Think That these Website Do These Type Of Things With Their Users......

That's right, there is no reason for them to manipulate when they are already earning, a trustworthy website will attract customers and clients and when there is a big volume of traders the exchange sites are making good money.

wintermeasures

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Quote from: someone111 on September 22, 2016, 03:03:24 PM

How do I know, all orders in the order books are real?

The one who owns server server could easily add some fake orders. As well as add some transactions under last transactions that did not actually happen.

Why? To manipulate the market. To cause artificial pumps. They can buy any time and cause a pump anytime. Then dump for profit. I guess, this works best with smaller capitalized coins? (With big coins, I suppose, if there are at least a legit exchanges, few people would fall for the fake pump.)

This should be very tempting for the owners of an exchange since it's low risk and kinda a money printing machine?

Let's take for example yobit. No names. No faces. I have no way to verify their identity. If I had coins there and they run, I had probably no legal means either?

Yes Bro Its Possible that A Website Do This But If You Are Using a Legit and Realible Website Then I Can Tell You That a Legit Website Can't Do This Because They Don't Want to Loss Their Trust and Their Users.....
I am Using Yobit.net And Poloniex.com And I Don't Think That these Website Do These Type Of Things With Their Users......

JeffBrad12

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Quote from: Superbitzz on October 06, 2016, 04:11:26 PM

i think it is not such an easy job, and specially in such an organize kind of currency, which is most favourite currency of the world and becoming more and more stronger day by day.

I don't think if that is a difficult job because the exchange just needs for adding a fake transaction, like using bot pumping, some exchange is using bot pumping for making like the cycle of exchanges is very fast.

Superbitzz

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i think it is not such an easy job, and specially in such an organize kind of currency, which is most favourite currency of the world and becoming more and more stronger day by day.

Red-Apple

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Quote from: Fatanut on October 01, 2016, 08:46:30 AM

Faking transactions might just lead to confusion on their end and that would even lead to loss of profit. I think everything on exchanges are automated. All the buy and sell are automated and they have nothing to do but do some maintenance every now and then. They will earn money even if they don't cheat on traders because of the transaction fee. Every single second there's money that's coming to them.

TL;DR: They can do it but they have not enough reason.

they don't make fake transactions for manipulations, it is all in the orderbooks and the history of trades. some times in some of the more crappy exchanges with lazy owners who want to manipulate you can actually see this and recognize their fake orders.

but in some of the bigger exchanges like poloniex or those big bitcoin exchanges it is so much harder to figure out because they are good at hiding it too.

electronicash

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Of course they do have enough reason to manipulate, money is the best motivation for them. Its probably one of the reason why they create an exchange. Some exchange sites even create their own coin such as yovi.

Fatanut

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Quote from: gentlemand on October 03, 2016, 12:19:16 PM

Quote from: Fatanut on October 01, 2016, 08:46:30 AM

TL;DR: They can do it but they have not enough reason.

I seem to remember someone ex OKcoin saying the exchange had its employees trading away with accounts provided for them. No idea whether that's just bitter lies of course.

It's also possible that their employers wanted to do a TLC (thinking like customer). The only way that you can do that is to use your service/product itself even if you're just going to end up playing by yourself. If you lose money trading on your own exchange site, it's okay because it is yours anyway.

Maybe they are just testing their website and they are looking for possible bugs. You know, experiencing the very thing that they created. It's quite hard to trust someone to test your website and give honest feedback so why not use your employees themselves, right? Grin

redsun114

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I believe an exchange might reserve the rights to fill up the gaps in order books so that they will attract more traders as every trader will be preferring to go with more trading volume occurring exchanges.

Moreover, filling up gaps in order books is a common practice by many exchanges as it will help their business to grow.

gentlemand

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Quote from: Fatanut on October 01, 2016, 08:46:30 AM

TL;DR: They can do it but they have not enough reason.

I seem to remember someone ex OKcoin saying the exchange had its employees trading away with accounts provided for them. No idea whether that's just bitter lies of course.

Fatanut

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Faking transactions might just lead to confusion on their end and that would even lead to loss of profit. I think everything on exchanges are automated. All the buy and sell are automated and they have nothing to do but do some maintenance every now and then. They will earn money even if they don't cheat on traders because of the transaction fee. Every single second there's money that's coming to them.

TL;DR: They can do it but they have not enough reason.

davis196

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Quote from: someone111 on September 22, 2016, 03:03:24 PM

How do I know, all orders in the order books are real?

The one who owns server server could easily add some fake orders. As well as add some transactions under last transactions that did not actually happen.

Why? To manipulate the market. To cause artificial pumps. They can buy any time and cause a pump anytime. Then dump for profit. I guess, this works best with smaller capitalized coins? (With big coins, I suppose, if there are at least a legit exchanges, few people would fall for the fake pump.)

This should be very tempting for the owners of an exchange since it's low risk and kinda a money printing machine?

Let's take for example yobit. No names. No faces. I have no way to verify their identity. If I had coins there and they run, I had probably no legal means either?

All the cryptocurrency exchanges are out of regulation and nobody controlls them.

This is a huge risk for all the people with btc deposits. Sad

I wish there was a way to make those exchange platforms more transparent.

Doamader

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One thing i know at all exchanges there are bots, a friend mine, a coder just made a bot to poloniex, something i thinked werent possible, soo the biggest exchange allows bots, even with their big security level, soo for sure all exchanges does have their bots to make a coin fly and without make them loosing money, fees will stand with the house and the bots for sure get some easy income allong the pumps and dumps of altcoins these days.

BitcoinHodler

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one of the sources of income that many exchanges have which is the only source of income for some of them is this exact manipulation that they do of the markets and the orderbooks.

it is a bit hard to catch sometimes especially if the site is good at hiding it but eventually it is not impossible to detect since everything is already available publicly on the charts and the trade history.

capoeira

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what they probably most do is front-running

Johnyloco

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Yes there are some exchanges doing this. Though it's hard to find, because it could be another trader with a bot or the exchange itself. Sometimes when looking at a single currency pair, you can easily see that the price is manipulated (most at altcoins)

talkbitcoin

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Quote from: mindrust on September 28, 2016, 06:01:22 AM

They can do that. But do they? The exchanges where i trade, I haven't caught anything suspicious yet. If they are not stupid, you won't be able to catch them anyways.

Gox did it. And did it waaay obviously. They pumped pumped pumped pumped, and then they blew up Cheesy

>>> to da mooon!

gox did it because it was the only exchanger in that time that was really big and successful but these days things have became more decentralized and they cannot do the manipulation easily anymore.

but they still do manipulate the prices especially in the altcoin markets and in big exchanges like poloniex which are almost center of every altcoin price.

mindrust

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They can do that. But do they? The exchanges where i trade, I haven't caught anything suspicious yet. If they are not stupid, you won't be able to catch them anyways.

Gox did it. And did it waaay obviously. They pumped pumped pumped pumped, and then they blew up Cheesy

>>> to da mooon!

ultrloa

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Nope, they would not do that and surely they wouldn't do faking since they don't have any tie to any of those not unless if they own that coins who's listed on their exchange but i don't see any exchangers do that since it can loose their credibility as exchanger themselves, but i do believe the only one who can fake that volume is only the dev himself because he is the one who can manipulate it without even asking the traders or community, and it is used by some devs to make their coin more appealing.

erikalui

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It won't happen in case of trusted exchanges that have been running since years and have over 1000+ users who keep trading daily but new and unknown exchanges can definitely place fake reviews and transactions to make their website look real. You can easily analyse a website based on this transactions and some people also pay users to trade on their websites and then turn untrustworthy. It all depends on the reputation of such exchanges.

jack1111

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I do not think so , and why they will do it ? according to my knowledge this manipulating did not happen before , because the major exchanges earn a lot of money just from trading fees , they do not need to manipulate and risk their reputations , maybe a small exchange did that , but I do not have information.

mirakal

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The big question is, why would they manipulate, do they get more than they can get if they will not manipulate. I think that should be realize by the OP, and when you are a trading site your reputation is very important so you should maintain your good reputation to protect your investment and continue a profitable business.

Caladonian

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Quote from: Dudeperfect on September 27, 2016, 10:44:27 PM

I don’t think so and I never experienced anything like that. Yes exchanges give some free space for bots and bots place orders which are far less than we do but those are not fake orders but those are not from human traders.

Credibility is biggest asset of anyone and same about exchanges so I don’t think any genuine exchange manipulate orders to support any pump and dump scheme. Although it is possible for them with some line of code.

exactly they have capability but for sure they wont do that to support pnd coin they will think of their trust rate and for sure it will not be a good impact to their business.

Dudeperfect

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I don’t think so and I never experienced anything like that. Yes exchanges give some free space for bots and bots place orders which are far less than we do but those are not fake orders but those are not from human traders.

Credibility is biggest asset of anyone and same about exchanges so I don’t think any genuine exchange manipulate orders to support any pump and dump scheme. Although it is possible for them with some line of code.

HeroCat

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I think that exchanges do not add fake transactions, only so called BTC doubler scam sites can add fake transactions. But you can search in the forum largest exchanges, and then trust only to largest BTC exchanges - check their websites too. For example Poloniex exchange - https://poloniex.com/ have current online users counter. Grin

dunfida

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Quote from: Serpens66 on September 26, 2016, 09:59:54 PM

Quote from: someone111 on September 26, 2016, 07:49:16 PM

How could they be caught? I wouldn't know how anyone could detect it.

some exchanges are quite stupid when placing orders thereself.
I already detected some, most do not exist anymore, so it really are mostly small exchanges with a few users.

I detected it by finding a pattern in placing orders. One for example always placed big buy orders (several > 30 BTC) always 5€ below the best user order.
And since they did not build in a limit and there were only very few user orders, I placed a buy order at 570€/BTC (while it was 500€ at other exchanges), let the exchange place their big orders at 565€/BTC, quickly removed my orders and placed a sell order for 565€/BTc which was filled.
I did this quite often and made good profit. But of course the exchange refused to pay out the money/btc I made , reverted everything back and build in a limit.

At bigger exchanges it might be much harder to detect such activity.

Sad to hear that they didnt pay you on the profit youve made hence they are aware that you already detected their activity/plans but with big exchanges it wont be recognizable at all because lots of traders are lurking there and you wont notice if its being manipulated.

Serpens66

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Quote from: someone111 on September 26, 2016, 07:49:16 PM

How could they be caught? I wouldn't know how anyone could detect it.

some exchanges are quite stupid when placing orders thereself.
I already detected some, most do not exist anymore, so it really are mostly small exchanges with a few users.

I detected it by finding a pattern in placing orders. One for example always placed big buy orders (several > 30 BTC) always 5€ below the best user order.
And since they did not build in a limit and there were only very few user orders, I placed a buy order at 570€/BTC (while it was 500€ at other exchanges), let the exchange place their big orders at 565€/BTC, quickly removed my orders and placed a sell order for 565€/BTc which was filled.
I did this quite often and made good profit. But of course the exchange refused to pay out the money/btc I made , reverted everything back and build in a limit.

At bigger exchanges it might be much harder to detect such activity.

someone111

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How could they be caught? I wouldn't know how anyone could detect it.

satmas

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I don't think that the more reputable exchanges would do this as if they did this and were caught, they more then likely wouldn't have users going over to the exchange since that would show that the exchange can't be trusted.

gentlemand

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Quote from: capoeira on September 26, 2016, 10:11:56 AM

sure.
that's why "we all" love no regulation

Don't forget the 'free market' too. I love being free enough to have coins taken away by faceless pricks with no comebacks.

capoeira

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sure.
that's why "we all" love no regulation

CraigWrightBTC

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I think they can do it, manipulation data and adds fake volume transaction, because we don't have control on the markets and there are not markets that show management markets only owners and administrators who can do it.

Strongkored

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exchange can do anything for their website, and all they do is to make their website look like have many transaction, but we dont have evidence to prove it cause only exchange owner know about it, if you dont want to involved in fake transaction should trading in big exchange

The Sceptical Chymist

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Wouldn't surprise me in the least, because I have no idea who runs these exchanges. Could be nerds in momses' basement for all I know, and if that's the case there's nothing stopping mommmma's boys from manipulating everything. Look at Karpeles and his wagonload of BS.

1Referee

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Yep. The most obvious case was back in 2014 when I was still into altcoin trading. It was on Bittrex exchange. I wanted to execute a sell order in a certain altcoin market, and each time I clicked my entire balance to sell it, a screen pops up asking me to confirm that specific action (which is normal), and at that moment certain buy orders instantly vanished. As soon as I cancelled my sell order, the exact same buy orders came back as quick as they were gone. I repeated this several times, and each time exactly the same happened. No coincidence.

BitHodler

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It's a common practice. Exchanges do everything to make their exchange look as promising as possible to attract people to use their exchange to trade on.

Without exchanges adding orders to their order books, the exchange in question would have a messy order book where the spread between ask and bid will be greater than 5% in some cases.

streazight

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Most of the exchanges are having the practice of filling up the gaps in price ranges with their own orders. We will able to trade with those orders with no differences. As long as these will not impact us in negative way, we can not call these fake transactions.

Other than this, manipulating prices for pump or dump is most common, an exchange or owner of stocks/altcoins or any high leveraged group may do that.

ethereumhunter

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Quote from: someone111 on September 22, 2016, 03:03:24 PM

How do I know, all orders in the order books are real?

The one who owns server server could easily add some fake orders. As well as add some transactions under last transactions that did not actually happen.

Why? To manipulate the market. To cause artificial pumps. They can buy any time and cause a pump anytime. Then dump for profit. I guess, this works best with smaller capitalized coins? (With big coins, I suppose, if there are at least a legit exchanges, few people would fall for the fake pump.)

This should be very tempting for the owners of an exchange since it's low risk and kinda a money printing machine?

Let's take for example yobit. No names. No faces. I have no way to verify their identity. If I had coins there and they run, I had probably no legal means either?

i think it can be do it if the transaction is really small, so market exchange need to do some action to attract buyer and seller to make more transaction, but this will never takes to long, because trader will realize about this.

maybe this is happen in small-middle market exchange because there are just few member will do the transaction.

th3nolo

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I think if it can happen perhaps in small exchanges, to obtain better benefits I generally do not like new exchanges because this fear

outatime1

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That could happen. Any exchange could be fraudulent like mtgox and cryptsy. If you watch the bitcoin forum in the scam accusation section, it could give you a warning if people suspect fraud.

Cast12

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We probably wouldn't be able to prove it anyways, unless it the volume turned to some ridiculous numbers(maybe around the time the exchanges were created) anyways, legitimate exchanges would not need to do this as they would already have a high number of users using their exchanges since legitimate exchanges(such as poloneix) would be trusted.

densuj

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Of course it can do, but usualy the markets that use fake volume of transaction are new services. And if there are many traders who make transaction on there, they stop activity fake volume of transaction.

richardsNY

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I personally haven't experienced such activities, but I wouldn't be surprised that exchanges in some cases want to make their orderbooks look healthy and full liquidity while in reality the orderbook is near empty.

neochiny

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Most likely. Though I think it's the smaller/less reputable sites that do this. I don't think the bigger ones would risk their reputation because when/if caught and proven, it would cause irreparable damage to reputation. They'd end up being known as just one those scammy sites. As for those exchanges that do manipulate their order books, I think it's to lure people with the 'high volume' or so.

gentlemand

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Yes. It's a total no brainer. It's not against any laws as far as I know so why wouldn't they? The only ones that we can be pretty sure don't get up to it would be places like Gemini hoping to get to NASDAQ type legitimacy.

Serpens66

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I know some BTC exchanges that do manipulate the orderbook, by placing their own orders, which are not covered.

But these are mostly unknown and especially asian exchanges.
If you see an exchange you never heard of/new exchange, but with incredible big volume or with a big orderbook, it is very likely that it is fake volume.

levocoin

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I Believe the manipulation is not possible untill the coin developer not involve in it....

JeffBrad12

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Quote from: mobnepal on September 22, 2016, 11:53:46 PM

There are many bots acting and placing orders in trading platform which keep on using certain strategy of placing buy and sell orders. As well as it has been known that few altcoin dev using this bots to pump the 24 hour volume with buying their own sell orders to lure more on their coin. Talking about yobit yes it is highly manipulated by the altcoin owners most of the time. Dont go with every coin that pops up better to trade high market cap coins.

Not closing the possibilities about the evidence of there is a someone is getting trapped by the bot and already buying a coin is already getting pumped by bot.

mobnepal

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There are many bots acting and placing orders in trading platform which keep on using certain strategy of placing buy and sell orders. As well as it has been known that few altcoin dev using this bots to pump the 24 hour volume with buying their own sell orders to lure more on their coin. Talking about yobit yes it is highly manipulated by the altcoin owners most of the time. Dont go with every coin that pops up better to trade high market cap coins.

ImHash

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One solution is to avoid trading any alt coins except the top 10 because all the other ones are just pure stupid and scam traps to accumulate cash overtime.

Second solution is to check and compare all the data with at least 5 other exchanges.

Have a nice day.

pooya87

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yes of course they do.

especially in the smaller altcoin markets. they can even be paid to do so by the altcoin developer and it has happened before.

even bitcoin was manipulated this way by MtGox back in the time of $1200 rise.

but this becomes harder and more expensive as the market grows and as more competition comes in like multiple big exchanges for bitcoin.

Viyamore

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Quote from: someone111 on September 22, 2016, 03:03:24 PM

How do I know, all orders in the order books are real?

The one who owns server server could easily add some fake orders. As well as add some transactions under last transactions that did not actually happen.

Why? To manipulate the market. To cause artificial pumps. They can buy any time and cause a pump anytime. Then dump for profit. I guess, this works best with smaller capitalized coins? (With big coins, I suppose, if there are at least a legit exchanges, few people would fall for the fake pump.)

This should be very tempting for the owners of an exchange since it's low risk and kinda a money printing machine?

Let's take for example yobit. No names. No faces. I have no way to verify their identity. If I had coins there and they run, I had probably no legal means either?

Well we no claims on that .also we have no evidence to prove it that they do it. And i don't think that they do fake transactions and order book .but i know that there are a group of traders by any coin to pump or dump it in short they are connected with the developer .
They earn actually every buy and sell transaction and withdrawal so why they will do that .
On yobit ,smart and researching before spending avoid that kind ,learn from your experince or much better try on other exchanges.

n691309

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Quote from: someone111 on September 22, 2016, 03:03:24 PM

How do I know, all orders in the order books are real?

The one who owns server server could easily add some fake orders. As well as add some transactions under last transactions that did not actually happen.

Why? To manipulate the market. To cause artificial pumps. They can buy any time and cause a pump anytime. Then dump for profit. I guess, this works best with smaller capitalized coins? (With big coins, I suppose, if there are at least a legit exchanges, few people would fall for the fake pump.)

This should be very tempting for the owners of an exchange since it's low risk and kinda a money printing machine?

Let's take for example yobit. No names. No faces. I have no way to verify their identity. If I had coins there and they run, I had probably no legal means either?

I think this is possible, it is not impossible but I don't know any case that this really happened because we can't prove it. If you have issue with yobit then this is another things but the manipulation can not be proved.

CryptoTrout

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they would never do anything like that

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

someone111

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How do I know, all orders in the order books are real?

The one who owns server server could easily add some fake orders. As well as add some transactions under last transactions that did not actually happen.

Why? To manipulate the market. To cause artificial pumps. They can buy any time and cause a pump anytime. Then dump for profit. I guess, this works best with smaller capitalized coins? (With big coins, I suppose, if there are at least a legit exchanges, few people would fall for the fake pump.)

This should be very tempting for the owners of an exchange since it's low risk and kinda a money printing machine?

Let's take for example yobit. No names. No faces. I have no way to verify their identity. If I had coins there and they run, I had probably no legal means either?

Topic: Do exchanges manipulate order books, add fake transactions? (Read 2707 times)