Topic: DO NOT ALLOW TAXATION IN BITCOIN (Read 2299 times)

What do you do when your own government doesn't follow its own rules though?

Both income tax and making money that is not backed by gold or silver were forbidden by the Constitution, by the founders of the country.

Oh ya right, the Constitution.

Oh ya right, your currency is going to crash because you are printing it endlessly? And you want to tax my bitcoin to pay for the interest on the debt that is pushed forward every day to pay for things the country can't afford?  Ya sure checks in the mail.   

The purpose of tax has never been redistribution.
Taxes have been invented to raise armies, finance wars, and make fat cats fatter. A very little part of your tax money is actually used to help the needy.

See any monopolies in a free market? Nope.



Who pretens it doesn't happen anymore? It still happens in countries who are on the same economic level as Britian used to be a few hundred years again. And as we see, the more you allow the free market the faster we lift them out of poverty.



Yes, they sure wish Apple would leave China. You know what these children used to do before Apple? WORK FOR LESS.



Fine, leave. Your totalitarian statist theories are refuted by reality, so I wouldn't want to stick around repeating them either.

Yes - I do understand that (FFS  )

My point is that there are no dollars in child protection. In a totally free market economy who will pay for it ? Me ? My kids are fine and well looked after thanks - and I'm already getting screwed by the now private healthcare insurance premiums . You ? Are you gonna put your hand in your pocket because someone out there are shit parents ? What we gonna do ? Insure for it ?

  I think Amir was touching on a similar problem with the free market when he was talking about immunisation in this thread https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.26201



BOC had a monopoly on the supply of oxygen to the NHS - what is it about this concept that you don't understand ?


Total bollocks - what happens is, is that via global capitalism, the child labour merely gets exported to where people like you can't see it and so are able to pretend that it isn't happening anymore - and then pontificate on forums like this (forums that deserve better than this crap, and indeed were initially setup for greater ideals than those that you espouse) about how we shouldn't pay tax and how BTC offers that life changing opportunity.
   Have a look here at Primark's fine example http://www.theguardian.com/business/2008/jun/23/primark.children or here for Apple's http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/jan/25/apple-child-labour-supply

Now I have done on this particular thread .

What the hell are you talking about? Nothing could me more profitable for a society than helping children. It's a million times more expensive to pay for protection against once you failed them.


And yet the choose this over the other options, so you can imagine how wretched life is was in this statist society when you choose to send your children to work 12 hours rather than not.
But as we always see, when you have a free market, so much value is created fast that child labour, something that has existed for HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of years in human history disappered in less than a century.

 
Eh, what? Waiting for...? What are you talking about?

But hey, lets kidnap children and put them in state driven prisons so they don't get abused, right?



Is that really what you take from the this? That the poor, poor little NHS who is only backed by the only entity allowed to make the rules are abused? How are they abused?
Did BOC hold a gun to their head? Did BOC force them to pass a law?

The whole reason I mentioned child protection social workers at all was that they seem to me to be doing work that in a total free market economy would provide no value/profit at all - and so quite possibly no such a social service would be undertaken or funded at all.

  Indeed, it wasn't too far back in history that in the UK children were sent down coal mines to work 12 and 14 hour days. It was said that the private coal mine owners would be more put out by the death of a pit pony than that of a child. Why ? Because they had to pay to replace the pony.
     Welcome to the free market.

   "A free system would need to provide a better option for children in order to have them willingly go with them" - and while you are waiting for that to happen children will be being sexually,physically and emotionally abused, there abusers totally unperturbed by the interference of those pesky social workers.





What sort of back to front, upside down cock eyed analysis is that ?

Thats like blaming the victim of abuse for the abuse !! - the abuser gets off scot free because they are somehow working within the system (?) (the abusers get to make up the rules)


Anyhows - I haven't come on this forum to argue the toss with free marketeers - of course, the free market has its place. I'll leave it at that.

First off. Child protection workers in a government system rely on kidnapping for thier means of works.
Nothing could be more immoral than this. The state doesn't own the child and forcefully removing them from parants are nothing short of the child abuse they are claiming they are trying to stop.
A free system would need to provide a better option for children in order to have them willingly go with them.


And you are espousing the Stalinist/Hitlerist idea doctrine that they don't.
See what I did there? It doesn't matter who has the ideas, or what you call them. The only thing that matters are if the ideas work, and are moral or not.



Yes, do you now see how inefficient it is? Anything in the free market doing such a silly thing as paying for ridonkleysly overprized oxygen would be fired fastar than the time it takes to pour a coffee.
They are not scamming the NHS, the are working within a system that gived them the incentive to provide overprized goods.


Then you don't want freedom at all. You want slavery, as a man not owning himself is owned by another. You can call it freedom, but than again, you can call anything freedom. But what freedom is that when you deny a man the right to self ownership.


They make the rules, government enforce them. Without government, the rules would apply no more than to the world than if I had posted them here.

The buzz word seems to be decentralisation - as opposed to,for example, the centralised concentration of wealth, power and opportunity that central government, through its subservience to corporate interests and its attendant free market dogma, has come to represent.

   I understand and sympathise with this. But I can only say again that in my view democracy and freedom are not compatible with the private ownership of the means of production. It is this ownership of the assets of the nation (world) by the 1% that corrupts Govt., media etc etc.  It isn't necesarily a fundamental flaw in Govt in itself that is the problem here.

   As Bob Dylan said "The masters make the rules, for the wise men and the fools"

Or put another way - Goldman Sachs make the rules, for the coders, just as they do for those that rely on their labour alone

Hey, if the BTC movement is relying on Canada's Fraser Institute for guidance on its economic direction  - then it could be in trouble - especially if you are an anarchist !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraser_Institute

What do I want that the private sector can't give me ? Child protection social workers maybe 

Re. NHS and funding problems. You, Renegademind, are basically espousing (wether you realise it or not) the right wing doctrine that large state owned enterprises lead to (lame duck) inefficiencies - red tape, beaurocracies etc etc

   Maybe you are right.

 But, just as a matter of interest, BOC (http://www.boconline.co.uk/en/index.html) , who had, for a long time, a monopoly on the supply of oxygen to the NHS, were for a long time one of the most profitable companies in the UK. The taxpayer funding private sector shareholders profits again - same old same old ......     I'll not even go into/mention the drugs companies scamming the NHS.

  BTC, IMHO, wants to be careful it doesn't facilitate the very system that (it seems as a newbie here) many on here are (in a consensus about) wishing to overthrow.

Well, not really.

What do you want to fund? There isn't a single example of anything that people on their own can't do. Sure, some things might be difficult or mildly inconvenient, but government adds no value. They are middle-men seeking rent.

ISPs are a great example of private companies offering services. The government doesn't do that. If anything, they make the situation worse by allowing cartel behaviour.

Roads? That problem has been solved. Besides, the government doesn't provide roads to everyone anyways. (I have relatives that have had the state refuse to build roads on their street.)

But, other examples just get long and tedious.




Underfunded? Or do you mean they piss away so much money and create overbearing regulations that hike costs so that they further piss money away to the point that providing decent service is near impossible?

That's probably much more likely than "being underfunded".

Canada has this problem - the same issue as the UK. A 1-payer system where they piss money away and force people to go abroad to get health care. 1% of people.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/01/16/report-tens-of-thousands-fled-socialized-canadian-medicine-in-2013/

Lots of horror stories.

Meanwhile, when doctors stop taking state insurance and just charge for their services, they drop prices by over 50%.

"Free" health care is anything but free. But only if you look at the evidence and not the state propaganda.



I'm not sure why you say that. But I think that starving the state is a good thing. Less wars, etc. etc.




Very much. If you don't believe in using violence to get your way, then Bitcoin is a godsend.




AMEN to that!

Well... probably more like urinating in their faces, but potato potato.

I'm rooting for the collapse of the bankster ponzi sham.




Well, I'm also rooting for the demise of the state and for voluntary, non-violent interaction. So, I'm hoping that more and more people use Bitcoins and other crytpo currencies to avoid having the state steal from them.

I'm hoping that Bitcoin helps starve the kleptocratic, fascist police state that we have. I want it to die. Salt & burn its bones.




I think that's a separate issue from just taxation.

The 1% have used the kleptocratic ponzi sham of the banksters and state to steal wealth from everyone else. We need to get rid of their mechanism of theft before we can ever begin to actually enjoy the fruits of our labours. Right now, they enjoy the fruits of our labours. We are little more than animals that they farm for profit. We are tax and debt slaves to be whipped and slaughtered as they see fit.

This is true and confirmed via a judge in NY.  The FBI will most likely not outright sell them but are negotiating the transfer of them to several buyers around the world.  Most likely they will sell to Second Market BIT Trust or Fortresses new BTC fund.  Easiest buyers of a large amount of coin (~26k).  The remaining 100k+ coin is still be contested of who really owns them so they are not being sold as of yet.

Would be difficult, actually quite impossible for it to be used universally and have no taxation. This can only happen when bitcoin becomes money instead of investment.

^this. It would be way to much work to isolate who uses Bitcoins, determine the tax rate, and then implement it when it's so scattered.

Why ? Because if revenue is not able to be raised by Govt./Councils etc thru taxation then the kind of things that taxation (at least partially) funds today - namely, social services - would not be funded at all by the private sector/wealth. Its not profitable. Welcome to the jungle.


Not in the UK - the NHS is a much loved, albeit underfunded, part of the fabric of British society.


It might short term - to a certain type of free market evangelist - but over the medium term it will make it untenable as any kind of a serious alternative to fiat currency.

I can see that BTC is attractive to a certain brand of anarchism and/or free market laissez faire capitalism (though I'd have thought the two were mutually exclusive tbh - ironically)

But for me the decentralised nature of BTC is today attractive via its ability to bypass the wests banking system's Ponzi scheme that only serves to urinate on the shoes of the masses - and then tell them that its raining - and makes them pay for the rain 
   Not because it provides the means by which none of us will have to pay any more tax.

And to be honest, the only people that would back that concept would be the 1% who control 80% of the wealth.

Should? Why? Given how hard it is to steal bitcoins from people, the kleptocrats will have a very difficult time forcing people to hand over their bitcoins.

For things like state controlled health care, it's a disaster. Why would you want it? Doctors that have refused to take state health insurance have dropped their prices by 50%+. (I don't have the references handy - sorry.) The state only makes it more expensive to receive lower quality health care.

If anything, the inability of the state to steal wealth from people because they use bitcoins will only make Bitcoin more attractive. Far from fading into obscurity, it will flourish and help starve the state of its ability to wage endless wars and gate-rape travellers. There's no downside. Well, unless you're a state welfare whore, e.g. politicians, police, bureaucrat, etc.

There is nothing that the state does that can't be done better by people. We have clear evidence of this all around us - the economy is only getting worse as the state gets bigger and wastes more and more.

NHS is collapsing (and has partially collapsed), with elderly mostly affected. It is unsustainable and corrupt healthcare unions made it worse. Countless politicians and health industry experts flat out admit that NHS cannot be sustained there is no other way. The only reason it still survives is due to endless debt/borrowing.

As has already been stated, it could (and should) be taxed in the same way as existing fiat currencies. It will be open to abuse/tax fraud - much in the same way as existing fiat.

      Could I ask - if we were not to allow taxation of btc (though I'm not sure how you could achieve this), who would, for example, pay for the National Health Service (in the UK) ? Or would healthcare be left to the free market also ? That would be a shame in my book - I kind of like the idea of healthcare free at the point of delivery  - and not dependant on the level of insurance you could afford.

    FWIW - if it were possible to make Btc immune from taxation I personally believe that over the medium to long term it would slowly sink away into obscurity - it would never be accepted.

it will be super hard to tax, and finde who is using the bitcoins.

agreed, bitcoin is for free markets commerce not over regulated over taxed hell hole markets.

We don't need regulation and taxation.

The "They will own all of them." part is actually possible. If every bitcoin transaction is taxed, as all are with fiat, it is possible for the state to accumulate most coins. The faster the velocity of money, the faster it happens.

How do you know this?

I'm not using sheepcoin.

Then they are sheep and you still have your coins. What exactly is the problem? And FYI the Silk road coins are set to be sold en masse in the near future.

Please keep separate what is currency and what is taxation. Whether you can tax gold or not is irrelevant to gold as a natural substance. Same with bitcoins. Taxation is a social construct which applies to transactions, income, gains and assets.

If you own a property the government may tax you 1% of its value per year. It is irrelevant whether the prevailing currency the government uses is dollars, euros, gold, bitcoins or sea-shells.

big retailers like amazon have to add the tax to the transaction... the government automatically takes out taxes from wages and you get a tax 'refund' in most cases... as far as taxing capital gains from the value of bitcoin itself, that's not going to happen... trading the crypto currencies is fairly transparent and you will only get caught if you are stupid (cashing out bitcoins putting them in the bank, etc) ... use the bitcoins to directly purchase a product instead...

It's not like a stock broker where they have to report every transaction to the IRS or anything which is nice as it eliminates a lot of needless paperwork and irritation.   Of course governments in theory could clamp down on the exchanges themselves because everyone 'wants their piece of the pie' in a fractional reserve world where we have more debt than we do money to pay it off.. everyone is always chasing to have their piece.

They have no incentive to spend OUR money. They have every incentive to make us spend THEIR cocaine dust covered money.

It seems unlikely the US government will keep all bitcoins it seizes or collects, assuming they are ever accepted for taxes. I would view any government accepting bitcoins for taxes (or anything else) as positive news.

morons love the state.

they will tell them.

Being decentralized and anonymous, the first task of course is to figure out how exactly to tax it. 

There is no incentive whatsoever for the tax authorities to redistribute coins.

They will own all of them.

Proof: Silk Road coins have not been redistributed.