Do you think Bitcoin need to change it's PoW algorithm?

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: cellard on February 25, 2018, 11:56:26 AM

As with many things in Bitcoin, we will have to wait and see. If DragonMint, Samsung, GMO etc can deliver a good package and a competitive edge against Bitmain, then we may be up for a new golden era of mining, but if they fail and the cheap production and electricity costs of Bitmain surpasses any attempts of competition we may have problems and the idea of a PoW change may start gaining traction.

i agree.....time will tell. one thing working in our favor is that cheap subsidized electricity for bitcoin mining in china is being phased out, and the regulatory atmosphere has jihan wu setting up farms around the world. bitmain is competing at the same rates as everyone else. it's more a matter of undercutting their edge in chip fabrication. samsung is working with an undisclosed chinese manufacturer. i'm excited to see what comes out of their launch.

Quote from: cellard on February 25, 2018, 11:56:26 AM

I think by around 2020 we should have a clear scenario of how things are going to be in the mining field, since all these competitors should have their machines ready and fighting against Bitmain's monopoly.

indeed. aside from difficulties with consensus, that's why it seems like a POW hard fork is really premature.

cellard

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Quote from: squatter on February 24, 2018, 11:06:10 PM

Quote from: Gedtamin on February 24, 2018, 05:33:04 AM

There is another suggestion for changing the PoW.
https://medium.com/@CobraBitcoin/an-open-letter-to-the-bitcoin-community-to-change-the-proof-of-work-algorithm-12a6545c20d0
https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/7ztynr/cobra_an_open_letter_to_the_bitcoin_community_to/

As a counterpoint, I think people should read this exchange between Cobra and David Harding.

I'm not impressed with Cobra's arguments and I think attempting a POW change is unwarranted. More than that, it would guarantee a network split and a lot of community drama, and it would damage trust in Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies. Not to mention the price. It would also unfairly punish a lot of good actors in the space in an attempt to punish Bitmain. For what?

Consider the timing. DMM just launched its first mining farm in Japan and is deploying additional farms overseas. GMO has just developed 12nm SHA256 miners and just began rolling out mining farms in Northern Europe. Samsung is now mass producing ASIC chips. Halong's DragonMint miners (supposedly the world's most efficient) are now in production.

On both fronts -- hash power and chip production -- competition is increasing. This is a bunch of fear mongering.

As with many things in Bitcoin, we will have to wait and see. If DragonMint, Samsung, GMO etc can deliver a good package and a competitive edge against Bitmain, then we may be up for a new golden era of mining, but if they fail and the cheap production and electricity costs of Bitmain surpasses any attempts of competition we may have problems and the idea of a PoW change may start gaining traction.

I think by around 2020 we should have a clear scenario of how things are going to be in the mining field, since all these competitors should have their machines ready and fighting against Bitmain's monopoly.

HALLASTERA

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PoW algorithm in bitcoin should be retained, because the expenditure of the electric power from real world provide real money. Further, for example, can use PoS algorithm in Lightning network.

squatter

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STOP SNITCHIN'

Quote from: Gedtamin on February 24, 2018, 05:33:04 AM

There is another suggestion for changing the PoW.
https://medium.com/@CobraBitcoin/an-open-letter-to-the-bitcoin-community-to-change-the-proof-of-work-algorithm-12a6545c20d0
https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/7ztynr/cobra_an_open_letter_to_the_bitcoin_community_to/

As a counterpoint, I think people should read this exchange between Cobra and David Harding.

I'm not impressed with Cobra's arguments and I think attempting a POW change is unwarranted. More than that, it would guarantee a network split and a lot of community drama, and it would damage trust in Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies. Not to mention the price. It would also unfairly punish a lot of good actors in the space in an attempt to punish Bitmain. For what?

Consider the timing. DMM just launched its first mining farm in Japan and is deploying additional farms overseas. GMO has just developed 12nm SHA256 miners and just began rolling out mining farms in Northern Europe. Samsung is now mass producing ASIC chips. Halong's DragonMint miners (supposedly the world's most efficient) are now in production.

On both fronts -- hash power and chip production -- competition is increasing. This is a bunch of fear mongering.

cellard

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Quote from: Gedtamin on February 24, 2018, 05:33:04 AM

There is another suggestion for changing the PoW.
https://medium.com/@CobraBitcoin/an-open-letter-to-the-bitcoin-community-to-change-the-proof-of-work-algorithm-12a6545c20d0
https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/7ztynr/cobra_an_open_letter_to_the_bitcoin_community_to/

I just saw this and came here to post it but I see you already did so.

Well, what can I say? It's a very controversial topic. It reminds me to whenever someone with a weight in the bitcoin "scene" has done a similar statement. Luke Jr has said in the past how we need to change the PoW or do something about it, and Cobra has gotten the same input: basically a negative one.

The problem is it is already too late. I don't see at what point Cobra sees it being too late, since he still considers a PoW change a viable solution. Im afraid we have already hit that limit, a while ago actually. And what I mean by this is, it will be impossible to reach consensus. A PoW change will end up in an altcoin with a new PoW, and then the original Bitcoin will remain. I really, really doubt you can gather enough consensus to avoid this outcome. At this point, we may need to see a disaster happen for people to wake up and trigger organically a PoW change. If no one comes up to challenge Jihan's monopoly something bad is going to end up happening, and this may be the spark that enables a flame for a viable hardfork that kills the legacy chain, leaving only one Bitcoin alive.

Gedtamin

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There is another suggestion for changing the PoW.
https://medium.com/@CobraBitcoin/an-open-letter-to-the-bitcoin-community-to-change-the-proof-of-work-algorithm-12a6545c20d0
https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/7ztynr/cobra_an_open_letter_to_the_bitcoin_community_to/

Kingigolo

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Yes, bitcoin should change its pow algorithm to pos or any other thing them can come up with that is more eco-friendly. The power being used in mining could easily be used for other things. Let's help save the planet by conserving energy.

ir.hn

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Consensus is Constitution

Quote from: ABCbits on February 18, 2018, 04:28:01 AM

Just read this article (https://getmonero.org/2018/02/11/PoW-change-and-key-reuse.html) and i wonder if Bitcoin need to change it's PoW algorithm (maybe to algorithm that Monero currently use) to preserve decentralization, especially such attempt such as Antbleed already happen.
I think it's necessary, because i think another companies or government will attempt to "control" bitcoin network by take control over mining process. What do you think?

To answer your question, yes. But will it ever happen? no. Because the only people who get to vote on the direction a coin takes is miners. Period.

ir.hn

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Consensus is Constitution

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on February 18, 2018, 06:25:33 AM

Quote from: ABCbits on February 18, 2018, 04:28:01 AM

Just read this article (https://getmonero.org/2018/02/11/PoW-change-and-key-reuse.html) and i wonder if Bitcoin need to change it's PoW algorithm (maybe to algorithm that Monero currently use) to preserve decentralization, especially such attempt such as Antbleed already happen.
I think it's necessary, because i think another companies or government will attempt to "control" bitcoin network by take control over mining process. What do you think?

Bitcoin is based on game-theoretic principles that miners will cooperate with users instead of attacking the network, because it's the optimal strategy. If this principle fails, then it doesn't even matter if mining is centralized or decentralized, because it would mean that cheating is profitable or at least affordable for big players. What matters more is network of nodes and strong community behind it - this is the ultimate mechanism against takeover attempts and mining majority attacks.

That is not a core principle of bitcoin. It may be a nice thing to believe but if a miner can gain an advantage and not get caught, they most likely will.

Do people refuse to steal when they have the opportunity because it would harm society and ultimately make it so the nation is weaker and ultimately they and their children make less money in their career? No.

"1 cpu one vote" is a core principle of bitcoin and makes it so people simply cannot easily gain an unfair advantage.

cellard

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Quote from: HeRetiK on February 18, 2018, 06:09:50 PM

Also note that requiring ASICs to mine BTC makes it less susceptible to hashrate fluctuations caused by rising alt coins. We got a glimpse of the possible impact of such competition during the early days of BCH. Most alts that share BTC's PoW scheme are irrelevant today, but if BTC were CPU / GPU mineable again this could have serious implications regarding the stability and security of the network. Back then BTC was the only game in town, but nowadays sudden alt price surges could result in network slowdown and thus congestion.

ASICs leading to centralization has been mostly due to there being only a handfull of mining hardware manufacturers on the market, using a signficiant amount of hardware for mining themselves. With the likes of Samsung entering the mining market we might see wider availability of mining hardware again, or at least some serious competition for the existing manufacturers. Assuming Samsung actually pulls through this will increase decentralization either way.

I will believe Samsung is going to be a serious competitor to Bitmain when I see it. I hope it's true, but honestly, im a bit concerned that the cheap chinese shit beats the higher quality (but more expensive) products. We are seeing this already with brands like Xiaomi gaining terrain due their cheaper prices. I hope Samsung can deliver a killer package that will stop Jihan from being the monopolyman of mining.

On changing the algo, I would only be pro-it if someone came with a design that would last in time. If you are going to change the algo only to repeat the current situation it's pretty stupid. Sooner or later devices to mine any algo will be designed. I remember reading about randomly changing algo, maybe something like that is the way to go in the (very) distant future.

Caleb Preis

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Nope. Leave it as it is. New coins will use new technology but to change an old running (maybe more and sometimes less) system may be a fail.

Wind_FURY

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OP, but is it not too late for that? I know technically there's a way but economically there is none. Changing the PoW algorithm now would be viewed by the miners and ASIC manufacturers as an attack to kick them out. Plus I believe their influence has already run too deep that it would be foolish to take their concerns lightly.

Quote from: ranochigo on February 18, 2018, 04:58:38 AM

Furthermore, the ASIC industry is huge and the miners play a part in the value of Bitcoin. The value of Bitcoin would likely tank if its changed to a more CPU friendly algorithm. It has been discussed from time to time. Lock the thread and read the others.

What he said.

HeRetiK

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Also note that requiring ASICs to mine BTC makes it less susceptible to hashrate fluctuations caused by rising alt coins. We got a glimpse of the possible impact of such competition during the early days of BCH. Most alts that share BTC's PoW scheme are irrelevant today, but if BTC were CPU / GPU mineable again this could have serious implications regarding the stability and security of the network. Back then BTC was the only game in town, but nowadays sudden alt price surges could result in network slowdown and thus congestion.

ASICs leading to centralization has been mostly due to there being only a handfull of mining hardware manufacturers on the market, using a signficiant amount of hardware for mining themselves. With the likes of Samsung entering the mining market we might see wider availability of mining hardware again, or at least some serious competition for the existing manufacturers. Assuming Samsung actually pulls through this will increase decentralization either way.

J-N

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Quote from: ranochigo on February 18, 2018, 04:58:38 AM

The main problem with coins that are exclusively only CPU and GPU mineable is that they are an especially desirable target for botnet owners. Since not many people own ASICs, the impact of that isn't big. Companies and government can better attack Bitcoin if that were to happen; not everyone would own an ASIC.

You're right. Monero is widely being mined by botnets and even by hacked sites in browsers. I think that if the developers of Monero will change the mining algorithm, those botnets won't yield profit until they will be upgraded. So this initiative offer will be useful against hackers too.

I agree that Bitcoin doesn't need to change the mining SHA256-algorithm, because CPU and GPU minable solutions raise a new problems.

hatshepsut93

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Quote from: ABCbits on February 18, 2018, 04:28:01 AM

Just read this article (https://getmonero.org/2018/02/11/PoW-change-and-key-reuse.html) and i wonder if Bitcoin need to change it's PoW algorithm (maybe to algorithm that Monero currently use) to preserve decentralization, especially such attempt such as Antbleed already happen.
I think it's necessary, because i think another companies or government will attempt to "control" bitcoin network by take control over mining process. What do you think?

Bitcoin is based on game-theoretic principles that miners will cooperate with users instead of attacking the network, because it's the optimal strategy. If this principle fails, then it doesn't even matter if mining is centralized or decentralized, because it would mean that cheating is profitable or at least affordable for big players. What matters more is network of nodes and strong community behind it - this is the ultimate mechanism against takeover attempts and mining majority attacks.

ryan.fortytwo

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well, unless its absolutely necessary or exposed to threats, otherwise, upgrading may be necessary, but not total overhaul because it has served the purpose well so far

ranochigo

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Quote from: ABCbits on February 18, 2018, 04:28:01 AM

Just read this article (https://getmonero.org/2018/02/11/PoW-change-and-key-reuse.html) and i wonder if Bitcoin need to change it's PoW algorithm (maybe to algorithm that Monero currently use) to preserve decentralization, especially such attempt such as Antbleed already happen.
I think it's necessary, because i think another companies or government will attempt to "control" bitcoin network by take control over mining process. What do you think?

No. Changing Bitcoin to a completely new algorithm isn't easy and it isn't something that should be attempted without sufficient justification.

The main problem with coins that are exclusively only CPU and GPU mineable is that they are an especially desirable target for botnet owners. Since not many people own ASICs, the impact of that isn't big. Companies and government can better attack Bitcoin if that were to happen; not everyone would own an ASIC.

Furthermore, the ASIC industry is huge and the miners play a part in the value of Bitcoin. The value of Bitcoin would likely tank if its changed to a more CPU friendly algorithm. It has been discussed from time to time. Lock the thread and read the others.

ABCbits

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Just read this article (https://getmonero.org/2018/02/11/PoW-change-and-key-reuse.html) and i wonder if Bitcoin need to change it's PoW algorithm (maybe to algorithm that Monero currently use) to preserve decentralization, especially such attempt such as Antbleed already happen.
I think it's necessary, because i think another companies or government will attempt to "control" bitcoin network by take control over mining process. What do you think?

Topic: Do you think Bitcoin need to change it's PoW algorithm? (Read 501 times)