Does Electrum have insurance against fraud??

Pmalek

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on October 15, 2021, 09:20:46 AM

Quote from: Pmalek on October 15, 2021, 06:19:53 AM

If OP sent the coins from a custodial wallet and the transaction was confirmed on the blockchain, can it be reversed?

Depends. If both users use the same exchange and they both own no keys, then it supposedly can be reversed, exchange-side.

True, but that's not an on-chain transaction. Centralized exchanges like Coinbase or Binance allow users to transfer "balances" from one account to the other, but those transactions don't move any bitcoins around. The bitcoins were and remain in the wallet of the centralized party, only balances sheets are changed and updated.

Quote from: Quickseller on October 15, 2021, 01:32:12 PM

I have a more important detail about the OP's message:

Quote from: jastherem on October 13, 2021, 11:11:52 AM

a company called funds-recovery.com has said that we can make a claim

I think most likely the OP is shilling for what is likely a scam site funds-recovery[dot]com. No reputable business is going to say that electrum is liable in this case. It might be understandable for a frustrated user to want to blame someone else for their mistake, but there isn't anyone running a business trying to recover funds from electrum as the OP describes.

It doesn't necessarily have to be shilling for that site, but you are right, it could be. It could also be just a scam site he found that is looking to take advantage of people who lost money in an attempt to profit from their ignorance.

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Quote from: Pmalek on October 15, 2021, 04:14:32 AM

Several users are focusing on the non-custodial feature of Electrum:
[...]
That characteristic of Electrum doesn't matter in this particular case. The coins were not stolen, OP wasn't hacked, Electrum didn't misplace or lose the coins due to any fault of their own.

This is the most important detail of OPs message:

Quote from: jastherem on October 13, 2021, 11:11:52 AM

the wallet i sent my money to has already transferred the money to somewhere else. Is there any way to file a claim for insurance against Electrum or get my bitcoin back?

Whether the money was sent from Electrum, a casino, a centralized exchange, hot or cold wallet doesn't change anything because he initiated the transaction.

I have a more important detail about the OP's message:

Quote from: jastherem on October 13, 2021, 11:11:52 AM

a company called funds-recovery.com has said that we can make a claim

I think most likely the OP is shilling for what is likely a scam site funds-recovery[dot]com. No reputable business is going to say that electrum is liable in this case. It might be understandable for a frustrated user to want to blame someone else for their mistake, but there isn't anyone running a business trying to recover funds from electrum as the OP describes.

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on October 15, 2021, 09:20:46 AM

Quote from: Pmalek on October 15, 2021, 06:19:53 AM

If OP sent the coins from a custodial wallet and the transaction was confirmed on the blockchain, can it be reversed?

Depends. If both users use the same exchange and they both own no keys, then it supposedly can be reversed, exchange-side.

The transaction itself can't be reversed (canceled) since it has been confirmed already. But in this particular case and since the exchange own both addresses private keys, it can refund the sent amount by resending the same amount from the receiver to the sender. If the receiver has already withdrawn the tokens, the exchange will have to refund it from its own money.

BlackHatCoiner

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Quote from: Pmalek on October 15, 2021, 06:19:53 AM

But the non-custodial argument doesn't help in this case because bitcoin transactions are equally final and irreversible no matter the type of wallet they were sent from.

I don't disagree.

What I'm telling you (and meant in the first reply) is that IF it's a non-custodial wallet, it surely isn't a fault of a third party. Since Electrum is a non-custodial wallet, it is taken for granted that there're no intermediates; that you're the one who hands out the electronic cash.

Quote from: Pmalek on October 15, 2021, 06:19:53 AM

If OP sent the coins from a custodial wallet and the transaction was confirmed on the blockchain, can it be reversed?

Depends. If both users use the same exchange and they both own no keys, then it supposedly can be reversed, exchange-side.

Pmalek

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on October 15, 2021, 04:26:06 AM

If you sent money from your Paypal account to another person and then regretted for doing it, wouldn't you consider both yourself AND Paypal responsible for this transaction?

PayPal wouldn't be responsible that I sent a transaction to the wrong place, but they would be responsible for not reverting it because they can do that. Having said that, bitcoin is significantly different due to the immutability factor. But the non-custodial argument doesn't help in this case because bitcoin transactions are equally final and irreversible no matter the type of wallet they were sent from. If OP sent the coins from a custodial wallet and the transaction was confirmed on the blockchain, can it be reversed? If he sent it from Binance, can it be reversed? That's all I am saying.

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It's irrelevant whether Electrum have bug which cause losing coin or not, because Electrum's license (https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum/blob/master/LICENCE) state that they don't provide warranty & can't be held liable.

Another point which proves that OP has absolutely no case against Electrum. Not that he would have any if the license agreement were to be different. You can't sue Bitcoin or Electrum for having a feature (immutability) you don't understand.

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Quote from: Pmalek on October 15, 2021, 04:14:32 AM

Whether the money was sent from Electrum, a casino, a centralized exchange, hot or cold wallet doesn't change anything because he initiated the transaction.

If you sent money from your Paypal account to another person and then regretted for doing it, wouldn't you consider both yourself AND Paypal responsible for this transaction? If it was a fraudulent one and Paypal wasn't agreeing to reverse it, shouldn't it also be included in this case?

As long as there're IOUs and at least one third party involved, they are all considered witnesses of the properly confirmed fraud. If they can reverse it and choose not to, they smile upon the criminal.

It's just like when you make a transaction with cash. You can't fault anyone if you got ripped off with a face-to-face trade. Same applies for cryptocurrencies; when you own your keys, meaning that the wallet is non-custodial, you transact in the same way with cash.

Pmalek

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Several users are focusing on the non-custodial feature of Electrum:

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on October 13, 2021, 11:16:02 AM

Electrum is a non-custodial wallet.

Quote from: Welsh on October 13, 2021, 06:46:54 PM

Electrum isn't the problem here, as mentioned by others. Basically, as soon as you send money out of a non custodial wallet, which Electrum is;

Quote from: sheenshane on October 14, 2021, 09:12:35 AM

and this wallet is a non-custodial wallet...

That characteristic of Electrum doesn't matter in this particular case. The coins were not stolen, OP wasn't hacked, Electrum didn't misplace or lose the coins due to any fault of their own.

This is the most important detail of OPs message:

Quote from: jastherem on October 13, 2021, 11:11:52 AM

the wallet i sent my money to has already transferred the money to somewhere else. Is there any way to file a claim for insurance against Electrum or get my bitcoin back?

Whether the money was sent from Electrum, a casino, a centralized exchange, hot or cold wallet doesn't change anything because he initiated the transaction.

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Quote from: jastherem on October 13, 2021, 02:33:19 PM

Ok thanks. Is there any company out there that is reputable and can trace the money to find the individual responsible? is there anyway to get my bitcoin back?

For all intents and purposes, no. You can(should) file a police report, but I would not expect to ever see that money again. The USD value fo the 14 BTC you lost is a lot of money to pretty much everyone, but I do hope this is not a lot of money to you personally. You can take the loss as a very expensive lesson in using cryptocurrency.

The company "funds-recovery.com" is almost certainly going to attempt to scam you out of more money. It is unclear as to their specific means to scam their users, but it is probably fair to say they will ask for some kind of payment in order to process your "claim".

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Quote from: jastherem on October 13, 2021, 02:33:19 PM

Ok thanks. Is there any company out there that is reputable and can trace the money to find the individual responsible? is there anyway to get my bitcoin back?

As I always recommend to others, here is a company that might help you to track your stolen Bitcoin and I think their service isn't free and if you're willing to take another risk and hoping to solve this problem, you can contact this company. Chainalysis.

Quote from: https://www.chainalysis.com/

"We provide data, software, services, and research to government agencies, exchanges, financial institutions, and insurance and cybersecurity companies in over 60 countries. Our data platform powers investigation, compliance, and risk management tools that have been used to solve some of the world’s most high-profile cyber criminal cases and grow consumer access to cryptocurrency safely".

Sorry for your loss and please don't blame Electrum here, that's your fault because you're who executed the transaction and this wallet is a non-custodial wallet and you must have been diligent in every transaction you made, and from the start, you should know Bitcoin transactions are irreversible. There's no way to send it back not unless you have control of the wallet where Bitcoin was being sent. Good luck and I hope you'll recover your Bitcoin if that amount was still on the scammer's hand.

Pmalek

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YOU sent the money. You weren't even hacked or phished. But you still think Electrum should be responsible for something you did? I am sorry for your loss and if the story is true, but your claims make no sense.

If you download porn and torrents on your PC and it gets infected with malware, do you think you have a case against Dell because you lost your personal files?
If you get hit in the face by a guy wearing an Adidas hoodie, do you think Adidas should pay you compensation for the suffered injury and/or trauma?

You are asking a similar thing here.

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Quote from: NotATether on October 14, 2021, 03:23:41 AM

By using Electrum you agreed to waive the developers of any liability - there's a no liability clause in the license.

It can't be any other way: if the wallet creator would be liable for lost funds, it would be impossible to prove it's the wallet's fault and very easy to fake losing funds for insurance fraud.

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Quote from: Poker Player on October 13, 2021, 09:53:12 PM

The only way I can imagine it being true is if that money was not hard earned, for example if his parents gave it to him because they are multimillionaires or he won the lottery.

Not saying that OP is for sure telling a real story but Hashocean went down in 2016, around that time when the news broke out about them one BTC was around $500, making the entire sum slightly above $7000. If we then further assume that this is the complete sum he was supposed to get, including profit and we further split in two or even more it becomes nothing special.

Anyhow, I'm surprised this got moved into the Electrum section, it's more about legal stuff than wallets.

Quote from: jastherem on October 13, 2021, 02:33:19 PM

Ok thanks. Is there any company out there that is reputable and can trace the money to find the individual responsible? is there anyway to get my bitcoin back?

I don't know any reputable companies but any company that will ask money upfront or after they only receive some "info" and need $ to go on on legal proceedings is most likely a scam, legit companies will only ask for a percentage on success.

Quote from: Potato Chips on October 13, 2021, 06:31:17 PM

There's https://www.reclaimcrypto.com by kroll and coinfirm (coindesk article). I'm not sure about kroll but coinfirm is known for its blockchain analysis service.

Both do the same, they only track coins, if the coins end in an exchange wallet then it's all over and they can't do a thing other than informing the police.
Same if the coins end in a wallet and haven't been moved for years, all they can do is say those might be your coins, good luck finding who owns that wallet, if he is even still alive.

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Quote from: jastherem on October 13, 2021, 11:11:52 AM

Hi i was scammed out of 14.6 bitcoin by a company called hashocean.com and a company called funds-recovery.com has said that we can make a claim against Electrum to pay insurance because i was scammed. Is this real? the wallet i sent my money to has already transferred the money to somewhere else. Is there any way to file a claim for insurance against Electrum or get my bitcoin back?

By using Electrum you agreed to waive the developers of any liability - there's a no liability clause in the license.

Also, where did you hear these companies from? Telegram? Somebody must have tricked you on there to make you think they are trustworthy.

Poker Player

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When I see stories like this, I wonder if they are really true, or the OP is a troll. Someone who has 15 BTC to play with, should be smarter not to get scammed and then to top it off he comes here to ask basic simple questions instead of having researched what he was investing in, skipping the investment rule: "don't invest in what you don't understand".

Nor do you understand how he comes here to ask instead of asking his lawyers. If he has so much money, it is normal for him to work with a law firm.

The only way I can imagine it being true is if that money was not hard earned, for example if his parents gave it to him because they are multimillionaires or he won the lottery.

Welsh

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Electrum isn't the problem here, as mentioned by others. Basically, as soon as you send money out of a non custodial wallet, which Electrum is; you can't revert that transaction, and therefore there's no way of charging back like you could with a bank transfer or transaction using Paypal.

Quote from: jastherem on October 13, 2021, 02:33:19 PM

Ok thanks. Is there any company out there that is reputable and can trace the money to find the individual responsible? is there anyway to get my bitcoin back?

Not one that I can actually endorse out of personal use, however there's plenty of detectives on this forum, which I bet would help if you could reveal all the details. Probably best to open a thread in scam accusations/investigations, and see if anyone can lend a hand. Though, do understand the possibility of getting those that scammed you is slim, especially if they know how to hide their identity, and have done it well.

Though, history has shown that scammers usually aren't the best at that, usually slip up somewhere, so there might be some hope. Collect all the information you can, and then present that evidence to the police. Probably, would need to be the police that has jurisdiction over those that scammed though.

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Quote from: jastherem on October 13, 2021, 02:33:19 PM

Ok thanks. Is there any company out there that is reputable and can trace the money to find the individual responsible? is there anyway to get my bitcoin back?

There's https://www.reclaimcrypto.com by kroll and coinfirm (coindesk article). I'm not sure about kroll but coinfirm is known for its blockchain analysis service.

But try not to get your hopes up, there's no guarantee they would be able to recover your stolen funds which is why if you were to pay upfront, make sure you're ready to lost it.

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Ok thanks. Is there any company out there that is reputable and can trace the money to find the individual responsible? is there anyway to get my bitcoin back?

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Quote from: jastherem on October 13, 2021, 11:11:52 AM

Hi i was scammed out of 14.6 bitcoin by a company called hashocean.com and a company called funds-recovery.com has said that we can make a claim against Electrum to pay insurance because i was scammed. Is this real? the wallet i sent my money to has already transferred the money to somewhere else. Is there any way to file a claim for insurance against Electrum or get my bitcoin back?

Whatever you do, do not send any money to funds-recovery.com or anyone else. They are attempting to scam you further.

And Corporate Creations is a legit company so it seems unlikely that they are related to the scammers.

stompix

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Quote from: jastherem on October 13, 2021, 11:11:52 AM

Hi i was scammed out of 14.6 bitcoin by a company called hashocean.com and a company called funds-recovery.com

So I was checking their website and the address..

Quote from: jastherem on October 13, 2021, 11:11:52 AM

Is there any way to file a claim for insurance against Electrum or get my bitcoin back?

Yeah, just as you can file a claim against Ford because you drove one of their cars to a meeting where you got robbed.

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14.6 btc is a lot, and hashocean was shutdown so many years already. As bitcoin transaction is not reversible and electrum is not a company/business nor anything that is applicable insurance, so it's not possible and I'm sorry for the loss.

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Quote from: jastherem on October 13, 2021, 11:11:52 AM

<...>

The former site you mention hasn’t been active for years apparently, and in 2016 it figured on the media for having scammed 700K users (see https://cointelegraph.com/news/hashocean-scam-victims-sign-petitions-to-fbi-hackers-to-reveal-more-scams). The issue is, in any case, with this company, and not Electrum, whose users are the sole custodians of their BTCs.

You can elaborate more if you wish to get our feedback, but you’d have to detail why you’re considering Electrum at fault, and not solely HashOcean, who is certainly the one to blame.

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Quote from: jastherem on October 13, 2021, 11:11:52 AM

and a company called funds-recovery.com has said that we can make a claim against Electrum to pay insurance because i was scammed. Is this real?

It looks to me like these guys try to get some (more) money off you.
If you want to sue someone, it's the site that scammed you, not the tool you used.

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Electrum is a non-custodial wallet.

This means that YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE for any actions you make. The electrum developers have just worked to accomplish a task, which is to create a lightweight non-custodial bitcoin wallet. You can't sue them or use them as support for the same reason you don't need anyone to transact.

This is bitcoin.

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Hi i was scammed out of 14.6 bitcoin by a company called hashocean.com and a company called funds-recovery.com has said that we can make a claim against Electrum to pay insurance because i was scammed. Is this real? the wallet i sent my money to has already transferred the money to somewhere else. Is there any way to file a claim for insurance against Electrum or get my bitcoin back?

Topic: Does Electrum have insurance against fraud?? (Read 274 times)