Topic: Done something nice today? Sorry, someone else did that! (Read 4300 times)

http://didntbuildthat.com/


 

The best cell service in that part of Africa, if I recall correctly.

I can change the width of my nose by about the same amount just by doing those two facial expressions; and notice both pictures show someone slightly strabic.

Yep^
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2012/07/24/james-holmes-received-26k-grant-from-bethesda-based-national-institutes-of-health/

It's because Obama is god. Duh.

And most christians would applaud him :-)

Back to the jokes:

To the joint:

As an academic you should be able see the great corruptness of modern day scientific culture. It was not always like this, this is a new phenomenon(last two or so generations). If I wanted to destroy american R&D I would design a system of publish/perish/cronyism plus fund more students than researchers, etc. This is what we have now here. I won't say there is a conspiracy but I could believe that this is on purpose.

In the end, all a government can do is lock people in cages, kill them, and confiscate their stuff. From that arises the ability to devote vast amounts of wealth to causes that would not be otherwise funded, for good or bad. In my opinion, the token amounts that go towards researchers is completely outweighed by the culture passed down from above leading to so much low, oh so low, quality research. If this keeps up, I believe that within the century scientists/academics will be seen as even greater failures with respect to their stated cause than the American press. Which we all know is a complete joke.

Please work against this.

Of my debate "opponents" on here, you're the most logical, and sensible. I admire that, and respect it.

Let me state a few things:

1) Paying taxes, and knowing that if I don't, I risk being caged at best, and shot dead at worst, raises my stress level.
2) Knowing that paying those taxes, statistically, means that I am almost certainly buying a bomb, or a gun, or a bullet, that is going to be used to kill either someone who had the poor grace and misfortune to be born in a country rich in oil or drugs, or someone, who, like me, does not wish to support those actions, raises my stress level.
3) Knowing that there are people out there, who upon hearing the results of either 1 or 2, would cheer, raises my stress level.

So I do what I can to mitigate my stress level, even though that is fairly minimal. In every-day life, I'm a pretty stress-free guy, but that's primarily because I do my best to surround myself with people who agree with me regarding the nature of government and avoid discussing politics with those who do not.

When I do discuss politics, typically on here or on another forum, I consistently advocate two things: Avoid taxes whenever possible, so as to avoid supporting tyranny, and offer replacement services for those necessary services that government currently provides. This helps change 3, and relieves stress.

Agorism provides a clear path to a voluntary society. If you feel your money is put to a good use in supporting infrastructure, or medical care, fund or start a program which provides those services voluntarily. Supporting Bitcoin is a fine way to help move toward a voluntary society, because if Bitocoin takes off, taxes themselves will become voluntary. If, in the meantime you find that paying taxes so as to avoid the risk of imprisonment or murder is preferable to the alternative, that's fine. Don't advocate it, though, because despite what lies you tell yourself to help get to sleep, you are supporting tyranny.

One final suggestion: You clearly have some level of medical training, unless you went to all that schooling to push a mop. (Edit: or a pencil) Imagine, if you will, how much good you could do by directly helping those people who need medical care, rather than paying taxes to a huge government bureaucracy, which eventually gets around to putting some of that money to use helping people by funding that hospital? Take a look at your next pay stub, and ask yourself, How many medical supplies would a year's worth of just your taxes buy? Imagine taking that money that the government currently steals before you even get to see, and directly funding the hospital. How long until that earns you a wing?

Yes, taxes do fund a few good programs. but the lion's share of tax funding goes, not to paying for hospitals, or roads, or parks, but to buying tanks, and bombs, and lining bankers' pockets. Pay them, if you must, but don't fool yourself that you're helping anyone. Certainly not to the best of your "capabilities".

Or, you can do both.

I pay taxes, but I'm also involved with more noble projects like Bitcoin, supporting it and promoting it.  If and when the status quo shifts, then I will no longer need to pay taxes. But complaining that we have to pay taxes and not doing so doesn't do anything.  It's not selling out -- it's called mitigating personal stress and the stress of others while simultaneously doing all I can within the context that I am ultimately constricted to, i.e. acting within my capacities. 

Yes, taxes are used for wars, bailouts, etc., but they are also used for infrastructure, for medical purposes, for education, and for other noble purposes, even if those purposes are not being fulfilled by the most efficient of means.  I cannot be held responsible for the actions of others.  Societal law indicates that the tax money should be used purposefully, and I am doing my fair share to contribute towards that intended purpose.  If others fuck it up, that's a problem, but it's a problem for which I cannot be held accountable.

If you do pay taxes, sure, it's possible that your dollars were specifically used to purchase a gun that ended up killing an innocent civilian in Iraq.  Or, perhaps, they were used to provide medical treatment that saved the life of a person with cancer.  You don't know, but you do your best.  Communities progress when people intend to think and do their best.  Bitching and complaining is not a productive use of one's time or energy.  All that time you spent bitching you could've been doing something useful, or at the very least, you could have been appreciate of the good aspects of our society so that you aren't so pissed off all the time.  Nobody likes to be around someone who is stressed all the time.  When you're stressed and angry, you tend to make poor choices and you make bad decisions, and you make others around you unhappy and stressed.  It inhibits your ability to deconstruct a situation effectively.

Id be happy if taxes went on infrastructure and things that actually benefit society rather than simply contribute to corporate welfare. How many new bridges and roads could they have built with the money they used to bail out the bankers ?

"Pay taxes so we can violate all civil rights with impunity, and if anyone even thinks about suing us for 42 USC § 1983, we have practically unlimited funds to defend our violations to the death (especially if they result in countless innocent deaths, ie "gun control"), and then flip the bird to SCOTUS even if we do lose! Thanks!"

Acts of agression include:

• direct use of force
• threat of force (this is why taxation is an act of agression)
• contract fraud

And remember, we are obligated via the Social Contract to not commit acts of agression against one another. The only time taxes would not be an act of agression is if they were voluntary.

My apologies. Consider these assumptions corrected.


No, you're right. Saying "taxes suck" does not do anything to fix the problem. However, it does raise just this sort of conversation, in which I have an opportunity to educate someone about the right way to do things. You say that refusing to pay taxes harms people. Perhaps. But I would also argue that paying taxes harms people. As I pointed out, those taxes pay for many things which I do not support, such as foreign wars, and the drug "war". So, If I were to refuse to pay taxes, and instead funded charities which support those things I do, I would be doing much less harm than the person who simply laid back, thought of England, and paid taxes.


You probably don't mean it this way, but all I read in this paragraph is "I sold out." You still feel that the society is profoundly fucked up, yet, perhaps because you don't know how to get from here, to there, you've given up trying to actually do anything to get there. Let me give you a road map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agorism In fact, read this book.


I'm not advocating "fighting against society itself". I am advocating offering society better alternatives than coercive monopolies paid for with stolen money.

Two assumptions you've made that are incorrect.

1)  I felt the same way about taxes before I got this job.  I was hired literally 8 days ago.  My opinion on taxes didn't change overnight.

2)  I got through college and graduate school with about a 33% attendance record.  I have a litany of emails from previous professors saying things like "Hey, you do great work, but you need to come to class or else I'll have to drop you according to school policy."  I had 6 professors tell me I entered the wrong profession (social work), and I developed a reputation among the professors at my graduate college for being the type of person that goes against the grain.  I'd be willing to bet I've spent as much time (if not more) educating myself outside of the classroom as you or most others on this forum.  I think that many of my previous posts on this forum reflect this.

I agree with you that the system is flawed.  I'm not sure that you actually picked up on the fact that I believe this.  What I'm saying is that the way to fix a flawed system is NOT to rebel in a way that is going to damage people.  When you say things like "I don't want to pay taxes because there are better ways of doing things,"  you miss the practical point -- you're hurting people based upon the system we currently have.  I wouldn't want to pay taxes either if we had a society that didn't require them.  But, we don't have that society yet, and I want to pay taxes because it really does make a difference.  Besides, saying you don't want to pay taxes won't do a damn thing to make the kind of society you'd like to see exist actually exist.

Though I'm still quite immature, I've spent a considerable amount of time during my (even) more immature years whining and bitching about society and saying things like "fuck taxes" and "fuck banks" and finding very good reasons to support my beliefs.  Deep down, I still have those beliefs.  I believe many social systems could be a whole heck-of-a-lot better.  So, to that extent we share something in common.  The difference, however, is that I've learned how to let go of the stress associated with these things at the same time that I fight against them.  How do I do this?  It's simple.  I can only control what I can control, and that's it.  All I have to work with is this moment right now, and all I can do is the best in my environment right here, right now.  And, right now includes the current societal structure we have.  So, accordingly, I will do the best I possibly can in the current societal structure we have.  This means I will pay taxes and I will expect others to do so because I am not powerful enough to change the entire societal structure.

Societies progress when individuals collectively move toward certain goals.  I figure that if I simply do the best I can, and if others do the best they can, then society will naturally change for the better -- that is, if everyone does the best they can, then society will do the best it can.  But, fighting against societal structure itself means I am fighting against people, people that I need to help make this society a better place.  For every policy that you can find which hurts a person, you will find someone else whom it helps.  When people fight against society, they are not doing the best they can.  They are misrepresenting their place in society, and all of a sudden everyone is trying to run their own show.  When people end up running their own show, you get what we see today, which is people at the top of the pyramid making selfish decisions that hurt everyone else.  When you make a selfish decision like "I don't want to pay taxes," you may not think you're hurting everyone else, but you are.  You just don't see it that way because you don't have as much influence as those at the top.

Almost all of which can be provided, and done better, privately. Those of them which it cannot, most notably "interest on the national debt" ... Fuck 'em.

Taxes also fund:
Politicians' private jets, including two full 747s which follow the president around everywhere he goes.
The TSA.
The war on (some) drugs.
Elected and unelected officials' salaries.
The "Fast and furious" gun scandal.
Bombing brown people on the other side of the planet "to protect your freedom".
Rebuilding the bridges we have bombed... on the other side of the planet, while the roads at home rot.

I could continue, but I have other points, and this post is long enough as is. If you have any questions as to how any of those things you mentioned can be privately funded, I can provide several ideas.


A politician's primary skill is - wait... Did Jerry Springer actually get elected to some position? - anyway, as I was saying, a Politician's primary skill is lying in order to get elected. Sine you brought up Blegojevich, I'd remind you what happened once he was in office. Corruption is the order of the day in politics.


Politician's primary skill....


No? Are you sure?


I'm a product of that same society. I'd wager we even came up in the same public school system, based on some of your comments. The difference is, I educated myself outside of that school system. and that education led me to come to the conclusion that the society we have is flawed.


...And here we have the reasoning behind your defense of the tax system. Who would want to cut off their paycheck?

Tax money funds:
streets
bridges
education
police protection and law enforcement
national defense
Medicare
Medicaid
libraries
parks
social security
fire protection
interest on the national debt
water sanitation
septic infrastructure
the electric grid
city councils and town municipalities
hospitals
nature conservatories
welfare
housing and urban development

Regarding "services that people do not want, nor need", that's very debatable.  We're a democratic nation.  Most of the leaders we have were voted into office.  This population has voted for Sarah Palin, George Bush, Jerry Springer, George Blegojevich, etc.    These are people that the nation has collectively chosen.  What you witness is the result of democracy.

I'm sure that you and I both agree that 2000-2004 was a pretty horrific time in American politics.  And guess what happened?  Bush got voted in again!  If the people really were desperate for such radical change, they would be on the streets protesting like crazy.  Actually, some are.  The vast majority are not.  It's not that important to them to protest.  They would rather do something else.

Here's a question I always ask myself.  If I didn't have access to a television, the Internet, or a newspaper, would I care what's going on in Washington?  Would I even know what's going on in Washington?  I've barely seen any effects of national policy in my life -- maybe some small variances here and there, but nothing radical or crazy.

I know this -- I like myself.  I'm a product of society.  Are there things in society I don't like?  Sure.  Do I think things could work better?  Sure.  But again, I like myself, and I'm a product of society.  So, society can't be that bad.  I'm not going to bitch.  I have all my basic needs met.  

***And, I have a job because of taxes.  I was just employed in a full-time position in a Medicare-only funded hospital.  Thank you, taxes.

Taxes support the government. Not the infrastructure. That government provides the infrastructure simply means that some - or even most - of those taxes are wasted in also providing the other, unnecessary "services" that people do not want, nor need.

I'd like to point out that I believe you contradicted yourself.  Specifically, you said that taxes don't support the infrastructure but that they support the government, and then you go on to say that the government doesn't let anyone else provide the infrastructure.  So...then who is providing the infrastructure?

Yes, taxes absolutely support the infrastructure.

Could there exist a societal structure in which taxes are not needed.  Yes.  Does that structure exist currently?  No.

Asking to not pay taxes because you'd prefer a society in which infrastructure is supported by private ventures is like asking for an honorary Ph.D because you think you have more knowledge in a particular field than someone who has paid the time and money to obtain a post-graduate degree.  Sure, you may actually be more knowledgeable, and it might be a better idea to judge credentials based upon actual knowledge and merit rather than a piece of paper -- but too bad, that's not the reality we live in right now.  Suck it up and deal with it. 

When a large enough percentage of the people realizes that a certain type of society can exist that does not require taxes nor pieces of paper certifying academic credentials, then that society will take shape.  But, the truth of the matter is that people either simply do not know how to make such a society a reality yet (it's a very, very complex problem), or they're pretty darn happy with the way things currently are.

Taxes support the government. Not the infrastructure. Roads, sewage, everything that is actually needed can, by that very feature (necessity) be paid for privately.

Telling me that I have to support them because they provide something I need is much less impressive when they don't let anyone else provide it.

I don't think it's necessarily aggressive, but let's assume it is.  Do you know why?  Without taxes, there goes infrastructure.  There goes roads, bridges, sewer and septic systems, the electric grid, food and agriculture, etc.  Taxes are there so that everyone can contribute to the communal pot to keep shit working.  This is exactly what Obama is trying to convey and you can't seem to understand it.  If we don't have that overarching infrastructure, then no, you won't get to have your precious business.  Try maintaining the electricity, the septic system, the roads for your customers to get to your business, etc. without that overarching infrastructure.  Shit would collapse in a heartbeat if it wasn't for the government.  The electric grid, transportation, food and agriculture, etc...all of this would collapse without infrastructure.  Taxes support that infrastructure.

Bottom line, if you don't contribute a fair share to society, you're going to get burnt.  Don't contribute by getting a job?  Then you get to be poor and live in shitty conditions.  Don't contribute by paying taxes?  Then you get the IRS on your back. 

If you don't pay taxes I hope they come after you because I pay my taxes, and my share is holding your ass up and keeping you afloat.

Asked...


And answered.

Nobody is forcing you to pay taxes.  What aggression?  It's coercion.  They are saying to you, "Hey, pay taxes or else we're going to come after you."  Well, why do they get to do that?  Actually, it's because of their abilities, as you pointed out.

Lot's of people don't pay taxes.  If they don't do it, apparently nobody was forcing them to do so.

But I do. Because I do not have the option of not paying, that is aggression.

I have no problem paying taxes. 

I guess satoshi didnt build bitcoin either. Id like to know which government program created it....

 


The social contract is not to agress against others. This includes not letting the government agress against us via taxes.

Perhaps "opportunity" was the wrong word to use. "Rights" would have been better. That one society or another does not respect some of these rights does not remove them.


I agree, the individual does have to recognize and appreciate the group that they are a part of. But that needs to go both ways, or the individual will decide not to be a part of that group any more.


Uhm....

Do you have any idea what you're saying?

Where to begin...

First of all, I don't think opportunity means what you think it means if you're isolating it from ability.  Equal opportunity = inequal non-opportunity, or, essentially, equal circumstance.  Guess what, if you're born different, then your opportunities will be different.

If you're born inequal, your opportunities will be inequal.   Moreover, who is to say that rights are equal if people are born inequal?  Why should they be equal?  You're confusing what you think should be the case (i.e. people should have equal opportunities) with reality (i.e. people have inequal abilities).  Stay congruent.

Now, let's just assume that what you're saying is true.  Alright, so if people are born with inequal abilities (or, inequal socioeconomic status), then some people will rise to the top and have power over you.  Or, some groups of people will.  Right now, the government is one such group of people.  It wields an inequal amount of power and they can exercise it however they choose because you can't stop them.  Naturally, the end result of this will be inequal opportunities because those that are more closely connected to those in power will have the opportunistic advantages of the powerful.

Ugh, it really bothers me when people say cliche shit that does not make any sense whatsoever.  You know what happens when we get people questioning things like "all men are created equal?"  We get people that breach social contracts and become selfish assholes.  Guess what -- when you're a part of a group, you can hurt yourself by hurting the group (a la metagame theory).  

Are people individuals?  Yes.  I'm all for individual accomplishments and achievements, and there is a time and place for individual recognition since individual recognition of accomplishments facilitates motivation and positive self-esteem.  But it is absolutely impossible to isolate an individual event from the collective.  It's logically absurd.

I even disagree that all people are created with equal opportunity.

Because we are not. Unless you can do math in your head like Stephen Hawking, and also run as fast as Usain Bolt.

All men are created with equal opportunity. Not equal ability.

You're the type of person that would have a problem with the phrase "all men are created equal" too, wouldn't you?  And for the same reasons.

I don't disagree with what I think his intended sentiment was, either, but what he meant, "We should recognize the advantages working together has given us," versus what he said, "If you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen," is what really gets me.

Bitcoin without users is still a great piece of cryptographic math. Bitcoin without Satoshi is Paypal.

Yes. Society is made of of interdependent actors trading voluntarily. Well done Obama!

The government just stole my wealth to pay for services that we either don't want or that it won't allow others to provide.

I agree with everything you just said, and I agree President Obama's intended sentiment (although that speech writer should be fired) even though I am not a statist.

No man is an island. I recognize that. And yes, you cannot build a business without customers. Yes, Bitcoin wouldn't be worth anything without all the users. But only one user put together the initial protocol. Only one user wrote the original white paper. The user who we know as Satoshi. As I said earlier: Yes, I stand upon the shoulders of giants, but I climbed up here.

Yep, we just need to remember the Founding Fathers.

This country (or any country for that matter) isn't about living and doing things alone. A country is not comprised of any single individual, it is a collection of individuals that are deeply interconnected. You either recognize that, or you don't.

Even Bitcoin is the result of a collection of individuals working together. Yes, Satoshi made the initial program, but what is that worth if it wasn't for us that continue to give it some value?

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot to mention that Bitcoin was also made possible by all the advancements in technology before that.

A group cannot function without individuals to make up the group.
One individual, alone, in a "state of nature" type setting, is not very useful.

Sounds socialist. He's denying the power of great individuals to change society. Denying the very basis the country he sits at the steering wheel of is based on.

Sounds humble.  Wouldn't that imply that Obama is also minimizing his own victory in the 2008 election?  I.e. he couldn't have done it without the people?

Btw, I don't vote and I don't care for either Obama or Romney.

O Brave New World!

You laugh, but... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_uterus

You may be right. Talk about woman's lib!

In the future, children will be so individualist that they won't have to be free loading (talk about PARASITES) in a womb for 9 months!

He acknowledged both, true, but minimized individual achievements, and glorified the group.

 

Uh, what?

And if he had only said the things that I highlighted in the first example, then people would have just reason to have a problem with it.  But he didn't.  He also said those things I highlighted in the second example.  Those phrases change the meaning of the speech from, "Fuck your achievements" to "Hey, isn't this system we've built together great?"

Again, see what I did there?

Regardless, here's a fine example.  Your parents made you.  Without your parents, you wouldn't have been able to do jack shit.  So, the reason anybody's company exists to begin with is because of parents.

In other words, no, no company in the history of this entire planet could have been established without others, nor could anything have ever been built without others.

Obama acknowledged both individuals and groups.  Quit the black or white garbage when it's clearly both.

If he had said only the things you highlighted in the second example, then we'd have no problem with it. But he didn't. He also said those things you highlighted in the first example. Those phrases change the meaning of the speech from "Hey, isn't this system we've built together great?" to "Fuck your achievements. That's all the system's doing, you didn't do shit."

And so, with one truth: These people don't and can't represent me, you take your first step...a step toward anarchy!  Enjoy the ride, its one hell of a rabbit hole!

Wow...

Ok.  Let's break this down a bit.








See what I did there?  And people have a problem with this...why?

Of course it's fascist, that's why they have giant fasces in both congressional chambers:

There's always leaving without going anywhere else... http://shiresociety.com/

"We rise or fall together as one nation and as one people"
"we’re in this together"

well, guess I better leave the country then because this place is going down the shitter

And what "action" do you propose, nationalizing the entire economy?

That's why no one should respect the constitution of the United States. It's a bunch of "we the people" fascist
 stuff. 

Fascism is where the government and business elites rule cooperatively. Does that sound like Obama? You can't have it both ways, except maybe in your own head. You really need to look up definitions folks. In and English dictionary it would say: "Fascist -See republican party."

The problem with Obama is that of course almost none of the rhetoric actually gets transmuted into action.

I was wondering where this meme came from.  Definitely taken out of context.  Regardless, what was he even getting at?  His job is to represent me.  If he really wanted to represent me, he'd set up a website where I could vote for myself.  I will never understand why we still vote for people to "represent" us.  No one in the world can represent me.  I'm tired of voting for the best fundraiser, speaker, debater, etc.  Those people aren't qualified to decided anything.

This is a good video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUr8KlV75Ow

This just seems like misdirection.

1) Are his actions/policies encouraging people to be inventive and productive or not?
2) Lets assume they are, under the powers the government is gaining, what is the likelihood the next "george bush" to get elected can misuse them?

This is just more meaningless propaganda. Does anyone really think they are not building on the work of generations before them? Should we also thank all the warlords and monarchs in the past for paving the way to democracy?

Think of it like a human pyramid of progress. Every human is vital to the success of the pyramid. If you climb on top with something new, you are personally adding to progress.

In other words, "Yes, I'm standing on the shoulders of giants, but by god, I climbed up there myself!"

Fascists are much more about "the greater good of the nation".



You may not have created the internet but the website business you own (imagine you do), was built by you. Sure we all benefit from cooperation but your business is still yours and your success is the results of your efforts. The business may take ideas from beforehand and businesses will always have suppliers but successful businesses will always add value and this is due to those that own the business and not the government or "someone else".

I'm currently developing a new bitcoin library/client. I didn't create bitcoin, I didn't create ECDSA, I didn't create TCP/IP, I didn't invent the microprocessor but I am creating something new that I hope will be useful to people and I'm doing it, not the government or "somebody else". Is that a bad thing? Would you rather have zero progress?

Also the fact we all benefit from one another is true in a market economy and this is true even when people are seeking their own fortune as their end (Often told as Adam Smith's invisible hand). We support each other by supporting ourselves.

Obama tries to make it out that we are all responsible for one another which is a stupid idea...I guess that particular idea is more communist than fascist so Obama is both fascist and communist?

Yes. Communism >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

Try a business with no demand

No, that's communists. 

Niemivh? You writing Obama's speeches now?

http://didntbuildthat.com/



There appears to be the beginning of a funny new meme on Obama's speech that played down the role individual initiate has in shaping society in attempt to make the government look good. People say Obama was taken out of context. The full passage is nasty though:


"We rise or fall together as one nation and as one people." Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer? What Obama says is the type of stuff fascists say.