Topic: Double Mixer: Mix your Bitcoin with two mixers in series (Read 1531 times)

Hi everyone.

It seemed no one was using this for quite some time, or at least for any sizeable amount of funds where I've noticed any commissions. At one point it was definitely being used for some large transfers and I never heard of any issues.

Unfortunately, I haven't been running the .onion for a while now, but the code is all still there. I've been busy working on other things. I'd like to hand the reins over for the Github organization and the private key for the .onion.

I could try to sell it to the highest bidder, but then I'd worry about a scammer getting it. So make me an offer of compelling words, Bitcoin, both, or neither, and maybe I'll send it your way for someone else to continue with. Strongly prefer someone with a good track record and who's savvy.

The code is all open source of course if you just want to launch the same thing, rebranded: https://github.com/doublemixer/

I also have the doublemixer-python project and associated libraries that I can transfer into the organization first (and make sure it's transfered from Pypi).

Thank you!

I don't think Coinjoin or Wasabi could be easily integrated into a browser, especially without some kind of proxy layer. But I agree, two different types of mixing would be preferable.

Hopefully the mixing methods used here are dissimilar enough.

Thanks for your work on this project! It definitely brought some cool new ideas to bitcoin mixing and the fact it is open source makes it still useful for everyone interested.
I'd vote for keeping your bitcoin affiliate address in at least one of the mixer stages to whoever is going to take it over.

It it wasn't made with Python, I would love to take over and even implement ChipMixer's API as the final step (Mix > Mix? > CM chips). Unforunately, I don't really know any about it besides the very basic.

That was a really cool project. Thanks for that.

I checked the site of this tumbler. Its nice and easy. Great job done, as far as designing the interface is concerned.
Are there any reviews of clients who have used this service and there experience? I went through thread and wasn't able to find any.

Seems different with other version minxer 

...

Great project, sega01

There is a case to be made for mixing two different ways if you're going to mix twice.  It might be very hard, but running BTC through Wasabi (CoinJoin) and another mixer might (perhaps Wasabi first?) be very difficult for analysts to break.

Writing the code might be hard though.  

Ah, got it. I probably should've just went to the next stage of mixing to find out, but I guess I was a tad lazy. Thanks

Not an already calculated value/overview, but you can just read the Letters of Guarantee before sending anything. In my just generated example case:


Then you need to manually calculate that.

Considering that the letter's format is always the same (supposedly), maybe he could scrape these percentages and make a calculator.

Unsure why it took me this long to find something like this, probably wasn't looking hard enough.

+Merited.

Question though- Is there anyway to calculate the fees of the mixing before we start mixing (I haven't tried this yet, asking before I do anything) Thanks for making this, much love.

Tor Browser 9 issue has been worked around. The canvas bug where you couldn't see QR codes on Tor Browser has also been fixed by switching to an HTML table based QR generator.

So back in business .

Clearnet double mixer

Tor double mixer

Two mixers are always better than only one

I appreciate your reply. If you do that, there's no reason to use DoubleMixer as it would just be a single mix.

Hopefully the bug will be fixed though. If you're not on Tor Browser 9 you should be okay. You can also use the clearnet site (https://doublemixer.github.io) from Tor Browser and it will work fine.

Bug report is here: https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/32255

I'm working with Bitmix to see if we can find a workaround.

This means that if you are using Tor Browser 9 and use the onion mirror of the website, the "Receiving Mix Letter Of Guarantee" field will be empty. So, instead of sending to the address on that field, which then sends the output to the Final Mix address, you must send the coins directly to the Final Mix address.

Normally:
1. You send BTC to receiving mix.
2. Receiving mix send BTC to final mix.
3. Final mix sends BTC to your output address.

With this issue:
1. You send BTC to final mix.
2. Final mix sends BTC to your output address.

1 Less step.

what the mean is that?

I'd like to announce an affiliate / referral program for Double Mixer.

It's very straight forward. Just send people to:


and/or:


For more information, see here. There's even a referral URL generator to make things easier.

Yeah, FoxMixer is pretty great. I've found their team to be extremely responsive getting back to me. BitMix has also been responsive, helps earn trust that way for sure.

Agreed, double mixing is often overkill, I just wanted to make it a bit easier and have more discussion of the concepts. It's kind of a working proof of concept.

Thank you!! I very much appreciate what you said.

Hi!

I'm what you could call a power-user of FoxMixer (used various others before).
By chance I stumbled across your project while browsing through this forum and I decided to have a closer look.
I'm not a programmer so I like that it'S damn simple to just enter the address and boom: everything else is done for you and the letters of guarantees are downloaded. Good job!
It's not that I will now always use two mixers but it's good to have the choice.
Just wondering why this project is so hidden. This should also be featured on other bitcoin sites IMHO. - Excellent work!

Alright, finally got this done!

https://doublemixer.github.io

http://doublemixwcfx4wadeuvuygpxej5jpu7uleesh3yptopnbj5kshnlrid.onion/

Live with double mixing. Please let me know how it works out for you. Obviously, please audit the code, make sure you don't send too much or too little (read the minimums/maximums in the guarantees), validate the signatures, etc.

Thanks for BitMix and for Foxmixer for both enabling CORS headers to make this possible.

If you connect to the .onion, the upstream mixer's .onions will be used for connecting to their API. If you use clearnet, that's obviously not the case.

Lastly, one major update on doublemixer-python. It now uses a local Tor SOCKS proxy and the corresponding Hidden Services by default.

Making some progress on the Javascript version. Currently only FoxMixer is used, so it's a single mixer and no better than using Fox Mixer directly. But, hoping to add BitMix soon.

https://doublemixer.github.io

http://doublemixwcfx4wadeuvuygpxej5jpu7uleesh3yptopnbj5kshnlrid.onion/

Glad to hear that, thank you! I hope it works out for you.

Thanks mate for the update!

For the time being, we implemented a very hacky solution that doesn't work so well and breaks easily.

That's nice to see that there is some progress at this project. I quickly had a look at your code and it looks promising and well structured!

I'm currently very busy with other parts of the project.
If we have some time and our team decides to focus on the browser-based mixing again, we'll test your code more in depth and cross-platform. We still think this is a huge topic and the implementation with FoxMixer on client/browser-side would be a plus for privacy in our project.

That's pretty cool. I honestly haven't tested it, it's just prototype code. I can work on it and bit more and see.

Generally, my JS is geared towards the latest browsers. I don't bother writing anything for IE 7 compatibility, etc. But honestly if you have an in-browser Bitcoin wallet, they probably should be running latest versions anyways.

I think this is a great idea, let me know if you implement it.

Ok, I see. A multi-address approach is possibly too complicated and error prone for daily use.

I'm in a team operating a browser-based bitcoin wallet focused on privacy and I'm currently thinking about integrating your implementation of the client-side part of foxmixer into this wallet. Basically, the idea would be that whenever a user wants to withdraw funds from his wallet, he gets to choose whether to withdraw directly or using the foxmixer browser-based mixing.
By doing all of this client-side, it is more transparent to the users what is happening and it is not hidden behind secret server calls of the wallet.

Do you have any experience on how well your client works in different browsers?

Thanks for your reply!

Both the CLI and browser versions are client side only and don't rely on anything other than the existing mixing services.

Very rudimentary, only one backend is working. Most mixers don't add CORS headers and I haven't pursued having them add it a whole lot let yet.

https://github.com/teran-mckinney/doublemixer-js

Yeah, definitely possible to go to an intermediate address. I've used this setup a few times and never had an issue but have been aware of it as well. IMO: the mixer needs to honor their guarantees and if they don't, you can go after them with that. But you're right, if a payment is way too late, it doesn't work out. I've tried to set the delays to be pretty conservative to help with that.

What I like is that how it is, it's one shot. No polling, etc. Super simple, little to break on the client's side. No actual coin handling there. Intermediate step could be done with WalkingLiberty. It would add another "interaction" that might help track users at a network level, but if using Tor, should be fine.

If you really wanted to do that now, after installing doublemixer you'll get `foxmixer`, `bitmix`, and `privcoin`. You can mix with one of those into a `walkingliberty` wallet, then mix out to where you really want to go. Personally, as I've yet to have a problem I'm not too concerned yet. If moving a lot of money it would be more of a concern but again, haven't seen any issues yet.


Thank you! What do you mean?

Thumbs up for the idea of a client-side only version.
That would open the plugin to the world of web developers.
Is there already some work on this that you can showcase?

Just had the same concerns as quickseller mentioned in his post:


The following idea to resolve this just came to mind:

Would it be possible to have the intermediate payout of the first mixer that should go into the second mixer go to an intermediate address that is owned by me (client-side) instead?
Only if the payment arrives at this intermediate address the second mixer is triggered and the payment is redirected to it.
Of course, this mode of mixing only works if the client stays alive and watches the intermediate address throughout the process.

This way of handling it would defeat the risk of a mixer taking longer than expected resulting in the payment not arriving at the second mixer in time.

Bump.

Just wanting to do a feeler. How many of you would use this if it were done all client side in a browser? Clearnet site and hidden .onion. Javascript, of course.

The different APIs take pretty different arguments with time delay. Some are in minutes, some hours, some hours but only allow integer and not float. I could maybe normalize them and use hours, but making it int if they don't support float. The values I selected are trying to be sane defaults.

Unlicense has a liability clause:

Please add our service as well. Here is a link to our API http://www.bitmaximumgnmsaf.onion/en/api Our service will secure your chain.

Looks like ChipMixer's maintenance is over.


The API is returning the right results now.

Ah, thank you. Did not know they had an API. I think that will be the next one on the list.

Hello, you could also add BitCloak mixer to the list as it has a very good api.
https://bitcloak43blmhmn.com/api

Ok

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New version, 0.0.3. Now randomly selects two of Bitmix, Privcoin, and Foxmixer. Both the mixer selection and ordering is random.

To upgrade:

Looks like the whole service is in maintenance (not just the API). I just visited the website (ChipMixer.com) and tried to create a new session. The same message appeared for me.

Just wait a few hours.

Hmm, interesting.

Tried https://chipmixer.com/api/v1/new_session and it says it's in maintenance mode at the moment.

Maybe it could be the final destination.

Your Address -> Some mixer -> ChipMixer.
Or Your Adress -> Some mixer -> Some other mixer -> ChipMixer.

Thank you all for your feedback!


Bestmixer requires an API key per user. I contacted them about this and they didn't seem interested in opening up the API.

I haven't looked as much into Chipmixer. I think it would not fit as easily in the double mixing model, given the sizing of the chips.

I will most likely add some of the more "traditional" ones if I see any traction with what I've already written.

Also for @OP: ChipMixer actually has an API. They never publicized this everywhere but they had an Electrum plugin to make the mixing work natively in the wallet.

This is the base URL: https://chipmixer.com/api/v1/

AFAIK, there is no API Doc, but you should be able to get everything you need from their Electrum plugin source code: https://github.com/chipmixer/electrum/tree/plugin/plugins/chipmixer

For example: https://chipmixer.com/api/v1/new_session
This creates a new session and returns a JSON with the token and the deposit address;

Looks like it's still working.

Interesting project but there is still a little risk to lose funds if one of the mixing services turns out as a scam. Perhaps, it is a good idea to connect your project with a decentralized mixer like CoinJoin to reinforce the security. All in all, good job. I hope to see more projects.

More mixers should make python libraries,it would be awesome if you could add Chipmixer and bestmixer.

Update: This is now available in your browser. Double Bitcoin Mixer or http://doublemixwcfx4wadeuvuygpxej5jpu7uleesh3yptopnbj5kshnlrid.onion/



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Use of any one mixer comes down to trust. Trust that the mixing is sound, that the mixer is not compromised, and that it's not a honeypot to begin with.

Using two chained mixers mitigates most of this risk. Odds of having two bad mixers is far lower than just one.

To this end, I've written a Python 3 library and CLI for Privcoin and Bitmix. They can both be used separately, like or .

The improvement is using both, together.


You may wish to run it with torsocks to route the traffic over Tor.

This is completely client side, so no need to trust a third party. Just be sure to review the code of privcoin-python, bitmix-python, and doublemixer-python before use. Absolutely no warranties expressed or implied, no liability on the author's behalf, etc.

Source code for doublemixer on Github

In action:



Affiliate / Referrals:

You can make money linking to Double Mixer. , or . For more information, see here.