Topic: Early Retirement Extreme (Read 14438 times)

That is only true in the US. All other countries will only tax you on income you produce in that country.

It probably would have if PBOC hadn't cracked down.

Any money you may saved from a mortgage will come at the cost of career opportunities.  You can't relocate for a promotion or a better job on the whim, if you're stuck with some mortgage.    There's a reason why many people consider your house to be your biggest liability (in more aspects than one) rather than an asset.

Thailand and Gao isn't a death sentence, either.  If you can't go "native" (local girl) - I can speak from firsthand experience that the beach touristy areas are always full of European and Latin American tourists - until you can persuade one to stay, you can just gravitate from tourist to tourist.

Vang Vieng in Laos was very cheap and I noticed more tourist women than men there.  Koh Samui  was an absolute chick magnet as every woman watches the movie "The Beach" (with Leonardo di Caprio) and comes to Koh Samui looking for romance, but find out there's no men to be romanced by.  

nice revamp of site, just read this article for inspiration http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/08/01/a-millionaire-is-made-ten-bucks-at-a-time/
saving is they key!

as i can see,we will have an early retirement 5 years later.

Mr. Money Mustache has updated his blog. http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/

We need to start making more islands so we all have a few each to retire to in a year or so 

That's fantastic! Have you started a blog for the trip yet? Some of us still have to go to work on Monday and would enjoy seeing what's out there in the rest of the world.

I was made redundant a few months ago and have since made more thanks to bitcoin than I've ever managed to save previously.  Also thanks entirely to bitcoin, I'm off next week to travel through Africa for a few months, during which time I don't plan to do any trading (I might have to take a glance at the price now and then, though).  I don't fancy having a job ever again!!

Might have found someone on this plan:

The great thing about bitcoin, is it's making it possible to go live all over the world and just transfer what you need into Fait when needed and if your good with money/assets

I met a guy at our bitcoin meetup acouple of days ago who 2 years ago was paid for a DJing gig in Bitcoin, he wasn't happy about it at the time.
But over past two years he has been able to travel and live in several countries, dj occasionally.

I have heard of it but seeing someone makes it alot more real.

I might buy the book, thanks for the link. It'd be nice to live on so little.

Not the country singer. That would have been cool.

Let's talk for a minute about the original idea I mentioned of wandering the globe while waiting for bitcoin appreciation. Rolf Potts' home base is a mobile home in Kansas but he's rarely there.

Although it was a marketing stunt I enjoyed his round-the-world with no bags trip: http://www.rtwblog.com/

Here's his main blog: http://www.vagablogging.net/

And bio: http://www.rolfpotts.com/bio/

Someone here already mentioned the WWOOF program. If you're willing to spend money there are hostels and AirBNB. Free options could include camping in National Parks or on BLM land/slab city. There's also https://www.couchsurfing.org/

Glenn Campbell has chosen to live homeless. For a golden couple of years he qualified for free standby flights so he was almost always flying somewhere.

Here's one way he spent the night waiting for a flight: http://travel.baddalailama.com/2010/03/lodging-on-fly-ontario-california.html

It seems I was wrong. Thanks for correcting me

Eduardo Saverin became a Singapore resident/citizen, but but there have been no reports about a similar move by Zuckerberg (except on a humor web site).

thanks for MMM article, he is great. 
I read early retirement extreme,  it's inspiring. it's good to question the consumerism.

MMM was interviewed in the Washington Post recently: http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/meet-mr-money-mustache-the-man-who-retired-at-30/2013/04/26/71e3e6a8-acf3-11e2-a8b9-2a63d75b5459_print.html

a house is an asset...and can generate net income

it can also be an appreciating asset.

also at what point is a bubble no longer a bubble....eg the Australian housing market still has not popped, particularly in Sydney, it may have gone down 1-3%, but then in one month goes 1.5%. I wish it would pop....but they have taken to calling it the longest bubble ever....!

The problem I think, is property is a religion there....so may defy reason for an indefinite amount of time.....

A house is most definitely an asset. Maybe you need to check the meaning of the word 'asset'? A house may not be an income generating asset, but it is none-the-less an asset.

I agree on one part.

A car is definitely not an asset in general, particularly recent models, but I don't think banks promote them as assets, but simply provide debt to allow their purchase. The debt usually amortises fast, to reflect the expected decline in value. It's similar to paying for a lease on a car, no-one expects to have any savings as a result of it.

That said some older cars, if bought well can be great assets, such as collectible sportscars, which have rocketed in value recently (mainly older Porsche/Ferrari/McLaren etc).

Regarding housing, other than in the recent bubble, which was extreme by any standards, especially for the US, housing has generally been an excellent asset. It is is almost always been cheaper historically to pay a mortgage over 30 years, than to pay the ever increasing rentals over the same period and equally over the longer holding periods capital values increase massively. Owning rental property is even better, since the upside is free provided the tenant pays the mortgage. The majority of privately owned wealth at middle-income levels in most developed countries has been created from ownership of property. Few people make significant wealth from simply saving their incomes through their lives.

Most people, especially in here, don't understand that most "assets" are not investments because they have been brainwashed by banks to think that their devalued car is an asset. Their house is an asset. And so on.
When in reality, if it were not for the housing bubble, most people would never see any kind of profit from a home sale. And you certainly cannot expect to profit from selling most cars. Yet banks view this form of chattel as something with value and therefore brainwash you to believe that you are making money by owning them and borrowing from the bank against them.

The stupidity of people never ceases to amaze.

Only if you kept it in banknotes.

This is the stupidy of the deflation argument so often quoted on these forums, most people with any investments/wealth keep it in property/stocks/income generating assets. These assets largely outperform inflation, so real values go up not down over time.

I tend to dismiss the most catastrophist scenarios. When oil runs short life will be less comfortable; with that I agree. But Mad Max scenarios like hyperinflation are out of the question. The powers that be make sure it never happens because, what business would corporations do in such a situation? There have been many recessions like the current one yet the stocks profitability has remained faithful to the long-term trend well above inflation. Besides, since stock price is a price, how could inflation undermine its value? 

You can start getting ready, hoarding food and weapons, but I would first make sure I have a nice money stash for the rest of my life.

If dollars hyperinflate, then $100k may not buy much.

My plan is to make $250k a year, save $100k a year, and retire by the time I'm 40.

I can live easily off $50-100k annually in retirement because I'll already own my home and vehicles outright and have no debt.

Where is bitcoin in this picture?

BTC = $0.00
XRP = $0.50
DXY = 85

yeah I know, it's like you end up paying double tax all the time,  not cool.  But for a BackPacker like me it works out great motivation to keep my visits under 3 months.

though it is good to be informed.  Here in Canada if you visit the country you can fill out a visitor tax redemption,

http://www.canadainternational.gc.ca/new_zealand-nouvelle_zelande/come-venir_canada/tax_refund-remboursement_taxe.aspx?lang=eng

they know it's unfair to try to tax someone who is just visiting. Other countries probably have something similar if they are in their right mind.

Tax you on what?

Come to the Philippines. I will escrow your BTC (and take care of paying the women in fiat). They won't accept BTC, they don't know how. Plus I offer armed security.

If you get sick with something, that's not my problem though, so ... ... I just make sure you won't die while you're here.

Don't do it! Buy a mining rig instead, get the most efficient mining rig you can afford... live off the proceeds, Then go BackPacking around the world, take pictures lots of them and save for the day when you have to upgrade.

so I used to make 37k/year. my rent was only 900.00 including utilities and I only spent about 200 on monthly expenses + internet of course= big savings.

I often bake my own bread, I never eat out except on special ocassions and take the time to learn new skills in my spare time... I saw Bitcoin and I understood this was my ticket!

So I quit my 37k a year job and lived off of my savings while I learn how to put all my intellect and motivation toward this Epic, Truly Monumental project; Bitcoin is going to change the world!

Now here Is what i'm going to do... right now broke. spent my money on buying the best equipment I could afford and living expenses really killing me, but I read everything that I can aim my eyeballs at and figured this out.

What is bitcoins global demand? I have no clue, but I know there are lots of people who want to use bitcoin, just gotta get those merchants on board.

1: so I figure the price will rise no matter what: check

2: I bought my rig that will pay itself and start generating revenue until it's not efficient enough, sell my old cards get new ones buy ASIC.

3: Live off proceeds, use spare time to find more efficient ways to live and live within my means.

4: pack my rig into a little safe room, pay my rent, pay someone to keep an eye on it,

5: exchange my money, declare revenue from investment or whatever mining bitcoin falls under for taxation...(I like my government, they can be pricks at times though and I do not like the people they hire... but over all their doing a good job)

6: Travel the world, visit poor countries where my revenue will be greeted with great appreciation by the locals, take advantage of loose women after my BTC, visit questionable establishments, have a good time.

Yeah that's my plan.

Come to the Philippines if you have that much money. I offer armed security. You'll be safe here.

Russia, Ukraine...

Maybe even Poland, but this depends on your needs...

So working 60 hours a week in order to have a huge mostly useless car is more important to you than turning your business into a hobby.

Case closed.

lol nah man read a little bit farther down the thread. I spent months in many beautiful developing countries very cheap. Then lived in more developed countries in many places by wwoofing, so I got free rent (& sometimes food too). Then I rented a place of my own for a few months to take a break and thats where the 2k came in.

I would have told you if you wouldn't mock me with "magical places"...

Nothing magical, just a country.

Can you please name this magical place! I'm thinking of moving there as soon as I find out where it is...

I was thinking more than writing. I wanted to say that stocks can go down really hard, even more in an event of economical collapse. I don't trust stocks. Sorry for the confusion and for not trusting stocks.

Only live stocks.

WHAT?!

Where are you getting your information from???

200,000 each YEAR? I can tell you a place where 200,000 ONCE will assure you for the rest of your life. And no, not living in huts. And a place with absolutely gorgeous women.

I think I said multiple times:

1. A secure home: having a nice not-too-big, not-too-small home, self-sufficient, at least 2 redundant water supplies, small garden, tools to work it (maybe some motorized cause if you spent your life as an adult in front of a laptop you won't have what it takes to work the land), some animals and of course, internet access, a nice archive with books (e-format also)

2. Some investments in precious metals and bitcoin (just because it's awesome). Anything else (like stocks) has 0 value over time. You need something proven over time.

3. Frugal life, with thing you need, not things you want. Nobody said to discard mobile phones and technology, just don't depend on it. AAA powered walkie-talkies are nice for example

4. An emergency fund, can be cash and bank account. Use this only for health, medical, financial issues. No fun, travelling etc

5. Work and enjoy life with loved ones.

So... what are your plans for retirement then since you seem to be high rolling SPENDING, not EARNING, but spending 200k every year... How much are you actually making per year?

Also you only need $5,000,000 if you actually need to withdraw $200,000 each year to spend.

Personally, i think you are screwed up somewhere if you are spending out of pocket $200k per year and not making atleast twice that in income... or you have a nice big trust fund or some other cushy situation that totally precludes you out of this topic...

Why are you reading this thread anyways?!?

You are right, $165k is my car fund, hardly enough for retirement, I figure if I wanted to "retire" now it would be $200k a year x 40 years, so I would need about $8million. That's just to have a comfortable life style so I could turn one of my businesses into enjoyable hobby, and didn't have to work 60 hours a week.

Art

Here in Bangkok you could rent a small (15 sqm) room with no A/C for about that ($55 per month = $2000 for 3 years).  I wouldn't be a nice room or in a good locations, but it wouldn't be a cardboard box either.

Yea I don't think I am down to live in whatever places allow you to live that cheap. My american standards start to kick in, even when I am in foreign countries. LOL

what the fuck!!!

really???

2K over 3 years did you live in a cardboard box?:?:?:?

Sunblaster, you could use reading Mr Money Moustache. $160k can be enough to not need a job ever again. The money you need to retire depends on your spending, and it is you who decides how much you spend. Not the Fed, not the corporations, only you.

Where are you guys getting these numbers... The ERE guy is like a hippie freak dude and lives out of an RV, right?

Screw him and get on board with Mr. Money Mustache! Thanks goes to calin

Here is how MMM lives retired for the last 6 years on less than $27k a year with him , his wife and 6 year old kid in their $400k house in Colorado: My Deprived Life: Raising a Family on Under $27,000 per Year

That link has photos of his house and toys.

Here is list and comparison of their expenses for 2012 vs 2010 and 2011.

I am now a self-proclaimed Mustachian! I will be debt free October this year and will then be able to stash about $30k for 2014 and $48k for 2015 and on... if I don't get anymore raises or other income (NOT!).

That will see me retired in 12 years from now at the age of 50. Not too bad. Even better if I get married and start living with 2 incomes in the household.

165k would do you just fine to retire on, assuming you also have a working time machine to retire sometime in the 1940s

40k for 5 years with 7k expenses, so he saved 165k I wouldnt call that retirement or financial independence more like a a 2 year off work vacation unless he used all $ to buy btc at $5 last year

Not too hard of a plan, in theory. There was a time in this country when that was possible for a middle class person. Jobs paid well enough to support a whole family, have a good savings and retirement benefits locked. If you spent less than you earned long term you have savings.

Generation Screwed, on the other hand cannot afford to save anything really. We all work menial joe jobs that barely get us by hunting for a better opportunity that never comes, as our negative feedback loop of crushing student debt and other loan debt that will never be repayed on top of it, our only "wealth" being debt. Everything is much more expensive than it used to be, and our money is worth less and less (94% devaluation over the last 95 years). I will never have a retirement package waiting for me later, no trust in that kind of promise from faceless amoral mega corporations. That security is gone, the only one who can look out for your ass in the future is you. For many like myself, Bitcoin is a chance at a new kind of business, and maybe a chance at a better future by investing in what could be the tip of a financial iceberg. The system abandoned me a long time ago, I only spend what I earn now, which is meager, and at this rate always will be as a wage slave. The old world has nothing left for me, so it is now my life's mission to make sure Bitcoin succeeds the way we all hope it does.

Even as a trained, experienced IT manager, I still cannot find any work in this town that pays much more than much easier ones. I essentially gave up my career at that point swearing never again. But the entrepeneur and techie in me has found a new love in Bitcoin 

Thank you all for making me aware of Mister Money Moustache.  I'm really enjoying his blog.

I would like to thank the OP for bringing this topic to my attention. If I haven't read but a tiny part of the ERE blog, it is because I immediately found the similar "Mister Money Moustache", which has shone a path of light towards my welfare.  I knew where I wanted to get, but with the assistance of mathematics the Financial Independence movement has exerted a great influence in my plan to a happy, carefree and healthy life.

Meanwhile, I'm just sitting at my computer all day, frowning and shouting "Damn you bitcoins, retire me already!".

I have no clue what your numbers are supposed to be about and your grammar doesn't help me understand what you are trying to explain.

BUT... it is working... because he is doing it. Also, I have looked in to living in Australia while considering a job offer so I am familiar with the fact that Australia is very expensive to live in compared to many US states.

It's all about how much you save vs how much you plan to spend in the future. There are a TON of statistics dating back almost 100 years that back up the percentages and numbers that MMM mentions so... not gonna try to convince you.

You can make a 100K a year and save every cent, and the house price increase will still out strip you by 50K a year....so that system does not work...

Understand that he lives in the USA. If you live in Australia and save 50-75% of what you make in AUD you will have a proportional amount. Now understand, he changed his way of life. The ERE guy is living out of an RV and does all kinds of homegrown/DIY things, but the Mr. Money Mustache guy is living alot nicer and has awesome pics of his house, cars and fun toys.

Still both of them have learned to live on less than what they made when working FT. Now that they are retired they live on an amount of money that is less than the interest that is made on their money.

POINT IS: They are both retired and not working and have automatic money coming in. They could still work if they wanted to... what are you doing that is assuring that at age 40? 50? 65? that you will be in their position?

not true he says he is worth 60 time what he spends annually = 60 x 7K = 420K

420K will buy you SFA anywhere you want to live, and leave you nothing to live on. In the next 10 years it will buy you even less  

eg in one month 1.5 % in Sydney alone on property and this is a bad time...that's 15000 on a $mil house which this guy claims to be buying. Nope he's not even coming close in 10 years time.

Untrue. The guy has done it, study the site and learn how.

The problem with this guys plan is that by the time you could spend his 1 mill, it would barely buy you a house/flat in (Sydney, City you want to live X) yet alone meet any living costs

watch out for a wallet hack, now that you've told everyone lol.

Sounds very familiar to a plan I've worked out and will be starting next week

Hey thanks man... that guy definitely sounds a little more my style. Great link!

I think Mr. Money Mustache (who Jacob passed the torch to after he went back to work) would be much more to your liking. He's married, has a kid, lives in nice house in suburbia somewhere in Colorado and I think lives on about $27,000 a year. He really doesn't appear to be deprived of anything. Even buys Apple products.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/

The dude is a hardcore socialist/communist. Even has the hammer and sickle tattooed on his arm. He is all about redistribution and all of that.

I am not saying it is right, but at least he is helping to collapse a broken system.

Well this is what I was asking about... how cheap would you be willing to live. Me? I definitely am not living out of a van sleeping in Wal-Mart parking lots.

BUT

The last line in the quote above is what I sure don't like... Why should I pay for him to live his nomadic lifestyle?

If you choose to live like that then by all means go for it, but don't take government (taxpayer's) funds to help you live it.

I have a buddy who one day just said "screw it". Instead of paying his rent that month, he took it and put it toward a cheap $800 van. He took out the back seats and made a bed out of them with storage underneath. He added a couple of solar panels on the roof and powers all of his interior stuff with that (laptop, small TV, phone, etc.).

He just drives the van to state parks and goes deep into the woods and just camps out for a few weeks at a time. His wife gets disability from the military for around $1500 a month and they get food stamps so he is doing fine, his only bill is insurance on the van and his cell phone bill.

He will come by the neighborhood and he has enough friends that they usually let him just park his van at their place or he finds an empty lot nearby.

He said that when he travels he will either stay at Walmart parking lots or just parked on the street, blending in with all of the other vehicles.

He heads north in the summer and goes south in the winter. He will do odd jobs here and there to keep himself busy and make a bit of pocket change but he has all the free time he could ever want. He is always working on some new invention with electricity or some little device. He has the time to do it.

I have considered it. But for me, I was considering buying something like this:
http://www.sportsmobile.com/2_eb-110s.html

I would do it if I could just have a business online.

we will see which strategy pays off more at the end of this ride. your critical cynicism versus my starry-eyed optimism. see you at $5000USD
[/quote]

My comment was in regards to you saying you didn't want to share the amount for security reasons...and loose women. Not about any speculation on BTC.

I sincerely hope you'll be a starry-eyed optimist with his own tropical paradise

we will see which strategy pays off more at the end of this ride. your critical cynicism versus my starry-eyed optimism. see you at $5000USD

So true.
Friends of mine live in Spain and each of them is pending not more than 1000€ for 6 months all expenses (only food and gas basically).

Well that is why I ask to put some perspective to that statement... I mean everything you have if you are living at home with mom probably isn't much.

If you are married with kids, everything you have could be pretty stupid, regardless of the amount.



Mmmm...yeah....that. 

i'm not going to advertise an exact amount for security reasons. lots of scammers and loose women out there, looking for cheap or free BTC

Props on putting your money where your mouth is. I'm much more conservatively invested (but not conservative by anyone's means following the recent run-up).

Good luck

Just to put some perspective on this... How much USD have you exchanged for BTC? $100? $1,000? $10,000?

I sold everything I own (worth selling, anyway-mostly electronics and furniture), took equity out of my house, and am putting money from my job into btc each week. I didn't take out loans, that way if I'm wrong, I only go to $0 and not negative with no way to pay back. But yeah, all aboard, see y'all at $5000USD

I am 38. I make $90k/year. I live on about $45k, but have about $26k in debt which includes $12k on my 2008 truck (First and Last New car I ever buy).

So I am really able to follow this whole ERE thing, BUT... I really don't want to live in an RV. I like the idea of traveling the world and roughing it, but I always worry about 2 things when I travel to foreign countries... Food and Sanitation. I just don't want to get sick abroad (I already have in Colombia once).

So... those of you who have traveled the world and are obviously internet savvy... how rough do you live when you are on your travels?

...and those of you who are looking to do the ERE thing. How 'cheap' are you willing to live?

Book looks really interesting, I might buy it

So I presume you maxed out all loaning possibilities and are working 3 or 4 jobs at the same time to make as much money as possible and buy coins at these prices? If you do this, and your premise is correct, you won't have to work anymore after that. In fact, you'll probably never have to doubt about any purchase ever. And if you recalculate the hourly wages this based on you projected 12-24 month Bitcoin appreciation the rates will be immensely high.

1T$ isn't really a lot. $5000 per coin is reasonable over the next 12-24 months. It probably will hit $5000 by Jan 2014.

Yes I read it a couple of years back, it opened my eyes (further) for the possibilities.



Please do not assume $50000 per coin. That requires a valuation of ~1T$ which is a lot (I'm assuming 4-6-2013 US $ wrt buying power). Of course one can't help but dream

How many BTC precisely would it take? Certainly buy some, but sell all your possessions? Be miserable for then next 3 years? How many BTC would that take?

At a price of $200 per coin, and you buy 25 coins, 5000/200=25, you'll need $5000 just for 25 coins. At this point in time $5000 is reasonable, but it wont be reasonable to get 25 coins when the price is $1000 per coin and it could reach that price by the summer. Suddenly 25 coins is $25,000 and only the most elite rich people can afford it. Of course you could just save your coins and that's wise, as BTC is best for savings anyway.

The question is how many coins would it take to retire in 5 years? 25 probably isn't going to be enough. 100 on the other hand and you'd be set for life. Each coin would probably be $50,000. If you have 100 then thats like having a salary of $50,000 per year for the rest of your life, you can retire with 100BTC. You can't retire with 25 BTC unless you're in your 50s-60s.

I want this! nice thread

also, couchsurfing. 

If you have a just a shred of cash lying around, its easy to either:

1. Live cheaply traveling in a foreign country (Goa, India or Thailand for starters)
2. http://www.wwoof.org/ is an amazing resource all over the world which provides opportunities for living very frugally in exchange for work. On the low end it could be 10 hours a week for a roof over your head and on the high end it could be 30 hours a week for a room& board with extra perks (training/location/whatever).

If you arent paying rent or a mortgage, its amazing how much extra cash you can have when you are able to make money online living cheaply using one of many options.

I've paid a total of about $2k usd in rent over the last 3 years while traveling the world. It's far easier than most think.

Any of you guys read Jacob Fisker Lund's blog before he stopped being early retired? Basically he made about $40,000 a year as a grad student, lived on about $7,000 a year and saved the rest for 5 years before becoming financially independent. Seems like he could have done it in two years if bitcoin had been in the picture.

http://earlyretirementextreme.com/

I've had this vision of selling all one's possessions for bitcoin, getting down to just what would fit in a backpack and travelling the world for 3-5 years waiting for full valuation to arrive.