Author

Topic: Economics Prof_ Trading Veteran_Rating all Cryptocurrency. (Read 619 times)

legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1094
Learning the troll avoidance button :)
freedomno1

I don't have time right at the moment but I will address a few of your points and give you some  pointers . You got some things right and some things wrong.  I will use some references for your convenience.

Thanks for the replies .

No prob take your time to make a well thought out reply, just make sure to support your key-points Cheesy
Lot of Url spam XD But also supporting sources
PHD thesis papers Books etc So long as it can be verified Smiley
That way when other people go over the thread they can see our sources and be more accurate to avoid threading old ground with the same arguments
newbie
Activity: 34
Merit: 0
freedomno1

I don't have time right at the moment but I will address a few of your points and give you some  pointers . You got some things right and some things wrong.  I will use some references for your convenience.

Thanks for the replies .
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1094
Learning the troll avoidance button :)
Thanks for the prompt reply will look through these points Smiley

Thank you for that information I will look though it , FX is a very confidence related vechical , so anything that effects confidence is of importance.

Just confirming FX is Forex.
If we consider it similar to Forex Bitcoin is a separate exchange entity and as such still needs to develop so yes confidence is of importance.
That said resilience is also important and bitcoin has shown that.

I understand about the exchange centralization but I don't see that as a large negative long term .  Plus look at the recent incident, the price was flat to up  on response.

Exchange centralization is not a negative, however as there are differences in how the rules are applied based on the jurisdiction based on
MSB's for example and the policy in the United States versus Canada and that may add to some uncertainty in the mid-term until the rules are fully clarified.

This impacts lenders more than it does users and we have seen the collapse of some exchanges back historically

I would recommend reading the Gamma Fund history if you want a good example of this beyond recent incidents
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=74975.0;topicseen
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1239841 From here on-wards is an example

The collapse of GLBSE exchange which was a significant collapse.
There's a lot of history on these forums so it helps to determine some information.

A fair bit of funds defaulted just a year ago so centralization may be a neutral factor.
That said Bitcoin was designed as a decentralized currency and the primary benefit is that it removes the middle man in person to person transactions, cuts down on fees regarding these services while providing worldwide access as long as the money can be withdrawn in that country. Of course some service such as a Bank unless people trade with localbitcoins will need to occur. But centralization may be a part of the design but not the primary component and is not required in all transactions.

Clearly the market does not see exchanges as a threat so far. They seem to be confident that others would quickly take up the distribution load. I agree.

Exchanges are not a threat was trying to say they are not the only option Smiley

My reference to ASIC is directly related to confidence , as is the risk reward price ratio .

For example , a buyer may look to invest in say Google , but they see Google as a multi faceted entity , confidence would be strong but they have a very high price also ,.

Its a risk based on difficulty, makes sense more ASIC mining = harder difficulty = less reward for more risk.

Bitcoin is a risk vechical like Gold .

True enough but bitcoin is really not a commodity or a currency primarily but is a hybrid it is a bit unfair to compare to just gold. But it can be compared to that.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/lets-end-one-debate-commodity-vs-money-47111

People may tell you different and if you are close to the community you may believe different , but I can tell you that an approaching 4 Trillion USD Fed balance sheet is why bitcoin is where it is .

People are looking for yeild and protection , in a zero interest rate world .

I hope I can expand your outlook of global markets also .

Considering that Central Banking has gotten us into this problem, I will argue against Keyne's and personally evaluate the merits of Hayek and the ideas of Bitcoin instead.

Every-time a recession occurs these sentiments increase but it is true that in the last 100 years we have seen more recessions and economic bubbles than all the years before that.
It is true that world growth is increasing and at the same the rapid pace and technological changes contribute to that, along with increases in inflation to ensure money is spent in the economy.

That said third-world or the Global South are still lagging behind and bitcoin can help solve some currency issues and address those inequalities by allowing itself to be based on multiple fiat currencies not based on any one government exchange rate.
I would not say bitcoin is a tulip mania but is a real currency that can adapt and supplement current financial systems.

Technically this forum is libertarian in alignment but the algorithms are math based and simple enough to prove.
Its not a belief in what the community say's but it comes down to an algorithm which anyone can look at and come to that decision.
That also explains its resilience
As they say you can't just spend your way out of all your problems.

A factor of bitcoin's growth is this distrust of how governments finance their affairs and people believing they can do better
Real growth and real GDP will build economies.
With Quadrillions in bitcoins when it finishes producing it can handle the economy of the future.
Furthermore although Bitcoin is deflationary it will be inflationary as long as we live.
So people looking for yield and protection in a zero interest rate world will find that their is still interest in bitcoin's.

If we argue with economics an argument assuming that money is perfectly mobile as it is in bitcoin finance, we can say that money will move to the place with the highest interest yield for risk. Seeing as their are no transportation costs for transporting bitcoins I would argue that if bitcoin develops it will have perfectly liquid capital around worldwide markets.

You missed a very obvious centralization argument , because information in the market was near zero at the inception of bitcoin , how many individuals garnered the early blocks .

This is not an empty argument , a real world example would be if you had just discovered gold for the first time in history .

Using the gold argument again , perhaps you built your house with gold , maybe you believed it would be valuable .

Then as the market was a a small one and information low, there is a proclivity towards centralization or if you like monopoly .

Long term it may not have an effect , but I'm talking about new investors taking on information for an investment , I still rate buy ~~ hold.

Well in that essence bitcoin was not a Ponzi scheme unlike some of the newly minted coins
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-ponzi-scheme-you-are-an-uninformed-idiot-176333
Gets to the point

People can sell whenever they want it has advantage for early investors who contributed to developing the infrastructure and to late investors who can still use it.

But to reply to your gold argument

Early adopters are rewarded for taking the higher risk with their time and money. The capital invested in bitcoin at each stage of its life invigorated the community and helped the currency to reach subsequent milestones. Arguing that early adopters do not deserve to profit from this is akin to saying that early investors in a company, or people who buy stock at a company IPO (Initial Public Offering), are unfairly rewarded.
This argument also depends on bitcoin early adopters using bitcoins to store rather than transfer value. The daily trade on the exchanges (as of Jan 2012) indicates that smaller transactions are becoming the norm, indicating trade rather than investment. In more pragmatic terms, "fairness" is an arbitrary concept that is improbable to be agreed upon by a large population. Establishing "fairness" is no goal of Bitcoin, as this would be impossible.
Looking forwards, considering the amount of publicity bitcoin received as of April 2013, there can be no reasonable grounds for complaint for people who did not invest at that time, and then see the value (possibly) rising drastically higher.
By starting to mine or acquire bitcoins today, you too can become an early adopter.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths

That should pick apart that argument you just made but good questions as they say knowledge requires asking questions.
newbie
Activity: 34
Merit: 0
You missed a very obvious centralization argument , because information in the market was near zero at the inception of bitcoin , how many individuals garnered the early blocks .

This is not an empty argument , a real world example would be if you had just discovered gold for the first time in history .

Using the gold argument again , perhaps you built your house with gold , maybe you believed it would be valuable .

Then as the market was a a small one and information low, there is a proclivity towards centralization or if you like monopoly .

Long term it may not have an effect , but I'm talking about new investors taking on information for an investment , I still rate buy ~~ hold.
newbie
Activity: 34
Merit: 0
Thank you for that information I will look though it , FX is a very confidence related vechical , so anything that effects confidence is of importance.

 I understand about the exchange centralization but I don't see that as a large negative long term .  Plus look at the recent incident, the price was flat to up  on response.

Clearly the market does not see exchanges as a threat so far. They seem to be confident that others would quickly take up the distribution load. I agree.

My reference to ASIC is directly related to confidence , as is the risk reward price ratio .

For example , a buyer may look to invest in say Google , but they see Google as a multi faceted entity , confidence would be strong but they have a very high price also ,.

Bitcoin is a risk vechical like Gold .

People may tell you different and if you are close to the community you may believe different , but I can tell you that an approaching 4 Trillion USD Fed balance sheet is why bitcoin is where it is .

People are looking for yeild and protection , in a zero interest rate world .

I hope I can expand your outlook of global markets also .
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1094
Learning the troll avoidance button :)
....

-
§ Is having transaction time problems
§ grew very large very quickly so risk reward ratio pushed
§ ASIC effect on currency is an unknown.
§ currency was / is fairly centralized .

....

What do you mean by currency was/is fairly centralized? I thought bitcoin is really the ultimate de-centralized currency.

Caught me before I could point that out
Bitcoin is decentralized ripple is centralized currency exchanges are nodes and places of exchange guess they are centralized
https://www.weusecoins.com/en/
Taint is the closest factor to determining where coins come from and the blockchain will need to support that point to argue centralization that said once the taint is removed there is no way to trace it hence decentralized that's what bitcoin mixing services are for.
http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/7966/what-are-tainted-coins-exactly

Support for that argument would be that Winklevoss brothers claiming to hold 1% of all currency that said since their is no central bank does not apply.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-11/winklevoss-twins-revealed-owning-1-all-bitcoins
Another supporting arguement would be ASIC miner network share but that is only on current coins and new coins are part of the dividends.
http://www.asicminer.co/about.html
Argument would be pretty much all articles argue decentralization even if there are some central elements so that does require some explanation of how you got it to a -

Guess I'll take a shot at the other points so you can strengthen your arguments
Grew very large very quickly so risk reward ratio pushed
Better qualified as the currency is growing and has found resilience over time
Would be better labeled as a - Volatile with uncertain base level
Proof would be the other two crashes before the current one
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2011/10/bitcoin-implodes-down-more-than-90-percent-from-june-peak/

ASIC effect on currency is an unknown.
Markets are assumed to be Asymmetrical as a result of perfect information market should factor that in
Regarding current ASIC's a majority are in ASIC miner and BTC guild providing some stability and distribution on the currency
But would like a clearly explanation of what you mean by unknown effect
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=105494.20

Further shots would say what was the effect of halving day on mining apparently the market just carried on Smiley
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/03/2013391325331795.html

Is having transaction time problems
Examples Smiley
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses#Dropping_transactions
Blocks are released every 10 minutes sorted by priority based on how much you pay in blockchain fee's so its design.

If expanded to Alt-Currencies
Then 50% Attack would be an issue -

That should be sufficient valid proof to support the points mentioned above although I am just pointing those out so you can strengthen the argument for your - points Smiley

General Article
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/05/20125309437931677.html

I am glad that you are trying to learn more as an economics prof
Considering mine are a bit behind on these sort of changes
Atkins lol Smiley

Anyways add to a Minus
Too much trade on mtgox not enough diversification of exchanges Smiley
Well I see it as a - some people may think Gox with its lawsuits are pushing the forefront for currency
For it to be more decentralized needs to have more exchanges being used
sr. member
Activity: 298
Merit: 250
Play2Live pre-sale starts on January 25th
....

-
§ Is having transaction time problems
§ grew very large very quickly so risk reward ratio pushed
§ ASIC effect on currency is an unknown.
§ currency was / is fairly centralized .

....

What do you mean by currency was/is fairly centralized? I thought bitcoin is really the ultimate de-centralized currency.
newbie
Activity: 34
Merit: 0
Inquiry: What format are these points pertaining too
Economics
General
Or technical


Any information pertaining to the overall investment entity.

But focused on the mid to long term , so short term technical is not of huge focus.

But if you have anything of note to add regarding a FIB or a MA that is + or - please send it though .

But I would like it to be no shorter than a D1 candle or M1 candle .

Otherwise its really irrelevant. And just noise.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1094
Learning the troll avoidance button :)
Inquiry: What format are these points pertaining too
Economics
General
Or technical

Also there is that Smiley and there is here Smiley
there is put there
(that is put here) Grammar Nazi
newbie
Activity: 34
Merit: 0
** Take all advice as opinion .
** Trade with your own information.
** Send and post me more relevant information.
** Disagreement will be ignored unless valid proof is given.

I'm a Trading Veteran and Economics Proff here I would like to start to rate the many cryptocurrency that exist in the market , I'm currently on a mobile device but will update as I go , ill try to keep it to the point , pm me with new Cryptocurrency as they come out .


Bitcoin _ BTC

Rating  _  Buy ~~ Hold

+
§ Has large market support .
§ Has large exchange base .
§ Has lot of capital for advertising.
§ has large huge base of mining support .
§ has possible finacial name meaning "information" association advantage in the same way
google is taken to mean "search the internet"

-
§ Is having transaction time problems
§ grew very large very quickly so risk reward ratio pushed
§ ASIC effect on currency is an unknown.
§ currency was / is fairly centralized .
§ Possible risk related to action taken against key exchanges but only temporary and negligible. Also applies to all Cryptocurrency

Comments:

Overall I believe economic turmoil will drive BTC price higher in the future but its not without its own risks , buy hold rating.


Litecoin_ LTC

Rating  _  Buy ~~ Buy


+





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