Topic: [Edited]How To Build A Better GB?[Old ver.]>What Miner Do You Want For This GB? (Read 2856 times)

Just an update: I am currently working on documentation to provide some details to you (keeping in mind 'KISS.')

As Vanderi indicated, KnCMiner has announced there Next Gen Miner (20nm asic.) Details are sketchy atm, I think it would be a good idea to consider a GB for these units. Does anyone have more information other than what is(n't) on the KnCMiner website?

OK, so here is the plan so far.

I have asked Bicknellski for some details (particularly about cost) and he provided me with even more information than I asked for (Thanks Bicknellski!) Bicknellski also had some very useful suggestions.

Here is a portion of his response:


He added:


I think that going with Bicknellski's advisement is the direction that I would like to see this go. So here is a call for qualified individuals to join SWMC (HIVE .

The best option for SWMC is to serve a dual function. If there is support amongst you guys, I suggest we: 1. Fabricate Wasp and Hive units to power SWMC's very own mining farm. 2. Provide a low cost/at cost fabrication service for SWMC partners (and offer low cost hosting.)

It seems logical that #2 is the best way atm to hedge against corporate dominance over the bitcoin network (e.i. keep cost as low as possible for the average individual.)

As I have learned (the painful way), there is only so much that I can do as a single individual. There is allot of work that needs to be done and, although I could do any particular task myself, I cannot do all the tasks myself (at least not in any realistic time frame.) So this is a call for participation to join SWMC by offering your talents to the HIVE.

I do not expect anyone to offer their services for free, so we will also have to all agree on a way to provide future compensation to current participants.

I will start a ZOHO project (
I will continue to add additional details as I work through the options available and as I gain greater insight into the costs and needed tasks.

We will also need to raise capital to cover some of the initial costs. SWMC will not except donations, but if you would like to help support this GB project you can make a contribution in several ways; Make a pledge (e.i. exspress that you are willing to cover certain cost and pay them directly,) Make a contribution by starting an escrow account to fund specific tasks for the project, Make a contribution to the address in my sig.

All of these methods will entitle the contributor to a stake in the SWMC mining farm or credit towards fabricated hardware and perhaps additional benefits.

I want this to be OUR porject, not just my project. So, if you have anything to add or wish to suggest changes or certain additional features,... PLEASE... DO SO!

Thanks,
James

**Prototypes for the Wasp Project are expected in December.

Thanks Vanderi, like I said, I knew I liked you for some reason. 

I have PMd you with my (potentially, they're people after all) resources - cutting edge asic engineering, IT-tech at officer level,
early btc investors. Even a vagabond, ready to travel.

Now it's up to you to inspire:)

I cannot believe SWMC has spammed me with PM answers on my stick-sharp questions, until I was silent. Just to show that he very much has the small peeps in mind.

He's the real McCoy.

Just to state my current stand to SWMC - you have my axe.

*edit KnC just announced their 20nm tech nextgen on their site incase you missed it

Thanks for the offer! Let me know what skills or resources you can bring to this project and I'll see what you might be able to help with.

Sound like FUN!) please keep us post it:) let me know how I can help:?)

Thanks DZ,

I am very happy that You have allowed me to join your group. I believe that we have common goals and I see great potential in our partnership.

I do. Bicknellski and the Wasp Team are "good people" IMHO. We've talked over Skype about various projects and about potential future collaborations.

==

Also, OT, but just to clarify: I had absolutely no hand in our co-op having exclusivity to BA Group Buys. I was notified of this myself and neither sought nor asked for this exclusivity.

I pride myself on my hardware neutrality, having doing arbitrage on electronics since the days of pre-order Nintendo Wiis and when people used to actually pay to ship giant CRTs weighing 50+ lbs. We've sold GB shares from 4 different manufacturers so far, and look forward to working with other manufacturers in the future.

One more thing to keep in mind: Bitcoin miners themselves are a result of the combination of East and West. The people who make our miners come from an entirely different culture from ours, and social mores are different then they are in the West.

I think that no insult was intended to anyone, simply cold hard business sense such as: based on past experience from bad GBCs that ran away w/ funds, we may save x percentage of operating expenses and reduce our risk if we don't have to deal with GBs ourselves.

I don't know if this is the case but I'm just trying to give you the background conditions of the massive societal and cultural differences between egalitarian and non-egalitarian cultures.

We try to run our co-op in as open and transparent a manner as possible. I instituted a direct representative democracy in our miner's co-op as soon as I started it. I believe it's made all the difference in the world and our co-op members can look at it proudly knowing that their input is taken seriously and real changes are made based upon their input and passion. My opinion from this democratic experiment is to heed the feedback you get from your customers and be willing to be adaptive and even keeled.

Encouraging new GBCs is something I've done since I've been here. I also wanted offload some work from John K., hence my GBC and/or miner host specific vetting which I offer for free, in the hope of doing future business with these people in the future.

==

Also: I've offered James my editing skills if he so chooses to utilize them for a GB re-launch. I apologize that we're too busy right now to juggle a 3rd GB with the free tools we have available at the moment. I've given him a number of suggestions which I hope are worthwhile

I am considering whether to base the first GB on The Wasp project. Do you support for this?

On the contrary, I want this to be done with average individuals. I want DECENTRALIZATION. To join with a single, or small group of entities would be just the opposite of what I am working for. I want 'We the People' to own the factory and therefor we will own [our own] the future. So the foul stench you sensed in the air was not from me.

Yeah,

you're looking for a rich funder. Preferably with a factory.
I smelled that already when I said you're maybe looking for some answers which you don't want to say out loud.

I'm out.

Thanks bobsag3,

Although, in order to stay ahead of the curve, I think we are trending towards a matter of hours to day's on execution for miningware purchases. There are very deep pockets out there who can easily afford to purchase the vast majority of available miningware. Those deep pockets have leverage on multiple fronts so their pockets will only get deeper. How will the current GB methods be able to be effective when the only way to afford to mine bitcoin (e.i. not operate at a lose) is to have the ability to purchase in high volume with, say, $100,000, $250,000, $500,000 or more? It is possible that the long term trend will be towards manufacturing proprietary hardware, chips and all. It may even come to the point that you have to produce new chip architecture on a monthly (weekly?) bases just to remain competitive. How do you organize a group buy for $100,000,000 to purchase an entire high-tech manufacturing facility? This is a threat to the decentralized nature of bitcoin.

On a positive note, the whole push towards faster, cheaper miningware combined with the profit motivation (I predict) is going too lead to the most astounding and rapid advancements in human technology in the entire history of man. (Ahha... the wonders of bitcoin!) [As a side note, I have conceived of a rather novel approach towards a new kind of processing architecture of which one of my physics professors agreed was revolutionary in concept and is plausible in practice. ]

I am really enjoying this discourse, lets keep it going!

Thanks,
James

I will definatly agree with #1. People outside of BTC, and even some of those in the know, dont understand the urgency and speed in witch these things are necessarily put together. A month in a normal business could need to be compressed and executed in a week within BTC.

@Vanderi: I think that you are beginning to grasp the difficulty of what I (believe is necessary) trying to accomplish. The most difficult aspects are:

1. Conveying the urgency of the need.

2. Gaining acceptance as a solution provider to a problem that is only being hinted at currently [most aren't presently convinced of or recognize the need (or the urgency).]

Present this in a consumer friendly package, why not as discussed earlier on in the thread.
Give dates. Links to hardware. Spreadsheet calcs. PRICES. And above all exactly what people get for their btc, they want to know this. You can't in an ambivalent way just say "we need monies but haow?".
You are the one with the plan. A credible, simple plan.


The timing is bad as we are between generations of "miningware". But you are going to need to get leverage by liquid funds before proceeding to the next stage and next. After that, get help from thomas, bob, or, uh, send the bitterdog to attack BA, to challenge them. I think the beforementioned people will appreciate what else you wrote in that tl;dr post of yours.

You will need to compose along the way.
Ironically, what comes to my mind is a pre-order of a GB.

Jesus Christ, what has the btc world come to.

Just atleast prepare what you can do - sites, sheets, payment mechanisms, social networking. Keep your target in focus all the time. A perpetual group buy and  "managing profit potentials".

I'm not sure at all you will be able to pull this off. We're talking a GBC 2.0, after all.

Surprise us.

Vanderi suggested that a Dream Group Buy would be with a GBC that had many connections to hardware suppliers. I am requesting information from anyone who is or has connections with miningware suppliers/manufacturers as well as those who would like to facilitate such arrangments. Please send me a PM with your info.

Thanks,
James

I love to challenge absurdity, but I am not in a strong enough position to cause BA to notice or care. Otherwise I would consider it.

Credit were credit is due. You are a very astute individual (I knew I liked you for some reason. )

Now to explain, I know what I want to say (or rather offer) and I have attempted too. My purpose is to understand better how to best present this idea as well as to gauge its support. Perhaps the point of the 'perpetual group buy' was lost in the heavy thatch of the rest of my persistent diatribe.

My reasoning behind this is that my assessment of the future of bitcoin mining is a rather bleak one for the small time miner (actually, for any sized 'mining farm' besides a handful of 'mega mining farms.') The necessity of constantly increasing ones hash rate to continue profiting from bitcoin mining has also resulted in the necessity for larger lump sums of cash to purchase the mining equipment, even though the cost per hash rate continues to decline.

The push for the 'holy grail' of miners has resulted in faster and more efficient 'miningware' (<< new term, lets adopt it  ) but most of this equipment is too costly for the majority of individuals (at least in the sense of keeping up with the ∆difficulty level) hence the need for the group buy. I believe that the next two or three waves of new miningware will push the cost of said equipment up so high as to be out of range of even today's GBs ability to raise funds to purchase them.

The group buy was formed to solve the problem of the high cost of new mining equipment when the cost became prohibitive for the majority, but the current GB model is becoming less viable and will become just as obsolete as the model of individuals building GPU and FPGA clusters at home. What we need now is something akin to pooled mining. Just as we rely on the pool managers to keep everything going smoothly, we need to begin relying on miningware purchaser/operators to manage our profit potentials. Doing this will lead to a more efficient model for buying miningware and increasing bitcoin mining profits.

We must, and I mean MUST, come to terms with this new paradigm and create such a system. I know many are working on different aspects of this concept but it is time to pull these diverse efforts together into one cohesive and more effective mechanism (although, we need to continue to view this an open-source like effort.)

This is a large part of why I began this venture. I am a 'true believer' of what bitcoin stands for (or at least what it has come to represent.) Because bitcoin (as an icon) means a great deal to me, I have been troubled by the direction that the bitcoin dynamic has been taking. The decentralized nature of bitcoin is at odds with the trend towards centralized mining. I perceive a danger in this trend as it makes large mining farms vulnerable to the trappings of large corporations (greed, political pressures, usurpation and a host of other nasty consequences.) The best way to prevent these negative predictions is to inspire a greater community effort, based on cooperation for mutual return, to steer this behemoth back onto its intended course. Essentially...

We, As Members (Dare I Say The Progenitors) Of The Bitcoin Community, Must Show Care And Concern For One Another And Realize That Doing So Will Benefit Us As Individuals Just As It Benefits The Group.

Otherwise...   we may endure a kind of bitcoin 'dark age' were the promise of bitcoin has been usurped by the self interest that naturally forms from large industry....

I think that I have reached the limit of my allowed time on the soapbox... at least for now....  

As stated in regards to Vanderi, I also will give credit were credit is due in regards to thoma_s, you indeed did offer advice (of which I am much appreciative.) And I don't really mind so much about the discourse between thoma_s, [bobsag3] and bitterdog (who also deserves credit for his stance in regards to fairness,) so long as the point of the OP is not a casualty of war.  

@StefanThePro Looking forward to your contribution!

I have noticed the viewed count is growing but there is a limited exchange of ideas, if your reading this and think that you have a good idea, please contribute to the discussion,

Thanks!
James

I want you to GB a prospero x3 and challenge them to cancel.

In my opinion its utter bullshit to discount everyone's ability to run a proper GB just because there are people out there who are thief's or bad managers or unorganized.

You want a model for a good group buy? Look at a DZ GB or a CanaryinTheMine GB or several others. The bad ones have tarnished what the GB is supposed to be about.

I did I've offered solar some points.

Nice train wreck of a derail gais.
Atleast there's no BA exclusivity on the PM BUTTON, USE IT TYVM.

I want to see if this gbc has potential and, fkin bbqs and choosing random threads for gripes, douche much?

You too thomas and bob, you have earned respect, now give it.

I'm interested, I'd like to get involved on your side, I've created a cloud mining service thats worked out

I'll think up some GB ideas and edit them in here later

I could go for some ribs.
DHL Is crap. My UPS rep actively keeps me up to date of all my various in and out boxes, and to boot knows about BTC (I have her her first USB Asic ). BA wanted to use DHL for all their boxes to me... I told them I would prefer to fly over and stuff them in a suitcase. I think that got the point across.

The piecemeal crap happens at the fault of the manufacturers.

They have Resellers.

You direct the GBC to the reseller in this case it would be you.

You make it known. THE GBC is the proprietary purchaser of the miner - PERIOD. Legally that's how it is. Privacy laws state as such also.

If a GB buy in contacts you or BA you states the privacy policy and  wish them a good day. I understand in this day we all want to be nice guys and helpful etc but there comes a time where people need to take responsibility for the decisions they make. Know the person you are entering into a agreement with.

I don't know what DZ's vetting service on John Ks service involves but im sure its pretty detailed. Its up to the person looking to get into a GB to use Due diligence in looking at the GBC and making sure this is someone they can trust.

Anyways, Im off from work tonite and just looking for something to bitch about... lol this just happened to be my topic tonite.
Not to mention I have $6000+ worth of Red Furys sitting in a DHL office in Vegas till TUESDAY 90 miles away because that's the "Contracted delivery date" IRRITATING!

On a positive note.

I smoked 3 racks of babyback ribs tonite in my new Pellet Smoker with some apple pellets... AMAZING!

They dont want to deal with GB people. I am. I get it for the same price they would from them, so therefore its almost the same. They just dont have the time/patience to do the "piecemeal" sales, but have no problem if I wish to offer such a service.

Bob my problem is with Black Arrows Policy... if you read what I wrote

Theres not any real exclusivity. What it really means Is I pay for all these miners up front with BA, and then offer them at price to the GBs. I have several other GB organizers contacting me for this service, and I will be working with them shortly.

Also if you have a problem with something Im doing, I would prefer it be brought to my attention first privately before posting it.

What do they care? They got paid.

Other people have run successful GBs and are trusted members also.

 To handle it correctly the manufacturer just needs to say "The purchaser of this unit is XXX if there is a problem you contact them due to privacy issues"  Period. KnC made the mistake by not making that a hard line policy.

Its a risk giving money to someone you don't know.. or even someone you do know. How many people lost money from Madoff?

BA has seen what has happened in other GB's, where the GBC's and purchasers go crazy when there is a delay demanding refunds etc, including when a GBC runs off with the money or doesn't use the unit for the GB and all of the  people that were part of the GB go to complain to them, not know how to configure miners etc. They'd simply prefer not to deal with that.

We've worked with them especially bob and that is the major reason we can offer it (then again I don't know of anyone else who sent a company 3k chips to test their assembly / board capabilities)

But they have no problem with Bob involved with a GB that's is a chickenshit move.

The DZ model was to allow the little miner to have the chance to invest and get into bitcoin mining.. I guess they actually mean the small time invester should get invested... only with the DZ group .. 100% chickenshit and unfair business practice. Not only that but will also cost Black Arrow Sales because of it.

Im very glad to see the work bob, dz yourself ect have done for promoting Bitcoin to the small time people but this exclusivity on group buys thing is just wrong and you guys should feel ashamed if you had any part in making this happen.

In context of new ooh shiny hardware having been released a couple of hours ago:

If you don't have the liquid capital to first buy the miner and then sell the shares, you are going to have to time the gb even more precise. Meaning probably a couple of days window of opportunity, when for example the KnC 2.0 flagship miner has come out. The one which everybody wants, but only 5-10% can afford.

Make a GB to the rest of the 95%. It probably would suffice to just have it funded via this forum (section).

I think this is something you should be capable of proposing, not asking for you to be told. You should know this, as a smart coordinator. Unless you're looking for some answers which you already have in mind, but don't want to say out loud yourself.

Also, sell shares in dollar prices.

Again, my 0.02btc

Do you think that 15% is enough to keep up with the ∆difficulty level? My rough estimation is ⅔. Seems like a lot but you are more likely to have a ≥ profit over time rather than a profit that is in constant decline.

I have considered the difficulty involved with the standard GB methods. Specifically, the issue with offering a GB and then waiting; 1. To see if there is enough support for the miner/GB. 2. For the completion of funding (possible missing out on the earliest/best buy opportunities because reaching full funding takes to long.)

Question: How would you suggest that we address this issue with the goal being to maximize profit potential by reducing purchase delay's?

Great Feedback!

This is what I have been looking for! (I know, I know... best way to find out what someone wants is to ask.. not tell...  <
@Vanderi: You sum up nicely the very thing that I have been trying to accomplish. The most profitable strategy when approaching bitcoin mining is the rapid re-investment, or as you put it, the perpetual group buy concept.

Quote from: thomas_s on November 23, 2013, 12:24:57 PM

But yes the simpler the better, no one wants to read between the lines of a GB they want this is what I pay this is what I get.

@thoma_s: I think the issue for me has been that I have a tendency to explain an idea by trying to represent every single thought I have rather than just trusting in the intelligence of those I am communicating with, for that (to all) I apologize.

@Bicknellski: The Wasp/Hive approach is along the lines of what I was planning on in the future, since your team has done all the hard work already it would be logical to work with you guys. I'll send you a request PM for more info.

@lajz99 I'm sorry, I don't understand the reference, could you elaborate (or point me in the right direction?)

I am going to attempt too incorporate all of your suggestions into my next offer, so keep them coming!

Thanks,
James

Ah yes, your -exclusive-. My sincere apologies. Otherwise I highly appreciate such feedback from a gentleman and scholar such as you.

All these points are great of a GB / GBC, I just want to point out about the BA minions, BA does not support GB's, and their terms state they will cancel and refund any order they find to be a part of a GB (minus a 10% fee).

But yes the simpler the better, no one wants to read between the lines of a GB they want this is what I pay this is what I get.

Nice approach. Nice, like in really courteous and nice.


My dream group buy would

-invest about 15% or more, as long as viably possible, on updating to new hardware. A perpetual group buy. This and especially this would require diligence from the operator/coordinator as the hardware landscape is fast and ever-evolving. After a few successful upgrades and increases of hashrates to the GB, it would increase in momentum and gain more credibility.
This is the most important and not suprisingly also the most requiring aspect of a group buy, that I would keep in very high regard.

-have absolutely clear spreadsheets. as little clutter as possible. Simplified, even.

-one clear, fresh site telling about the venture. Some pics. A customers only forum for documented communications and whatnot, specs of the hardware, news concertning the gb hardware.

*edit the hardware? Maybe KnC 2.0 when it comes out. Bitmines 28nm miners, or the minions. It would have to be cutting edge, which right now just isn't readily available, as we are between generations~

What does this need?
afaik, "a true believer". Ability to focus, which means keeping an eye on the target, and next target and next. Pertinent and fast communications, also keeping them to a couple of lines only. A gut-feeling enhanced sense of business. And a vast net of contacts to be there and be first, which in its turn needs an extrovert with high energy levels.

This is something I would invest, say 5btc into right now. Provided my gut feeling would allow;)

my proverbial 0.02btc

Wasp & Hive?

Drop me an email.

#1-999: Quick access to hardware

Ok, guys. Here is a little information about me.

I have been vetted by DyslexicZombei

I am a studying for a degree in Computer Engineering.

I have a business partner who runs a trusted and popular electronics repair business who has agreed to allow me to host the company mining rigs at his secure site.

There are techs available onsite to attend to the mining rigs when needed.

The facility houses servers and other computer related equipment and has high speed internet connections at its disposal, so all of the needed infrastructure is present at the site.

The facility has the proper cooling equipment in use.

It is my intention to play a large roll in the bitcoin community, so I'm not going to disappear.

I have been working many weeks on building this company without pay and without guarantee of success because I believe in the idea of what bitcoin stands for, I am a true believer.

I have a total of 11 investors who have, with one exception, invested less than 0.6 BTC each. It doesn't sound like much but I have been able to insure that each one of them will receive at least twice their investment within the next few months. The company will be generating a profit of at least $100 dollars a day in about 60 days from now and that will be scalable to approximately $500 a day or more. All of this has been done with only an investment of ~6.5 BTC in total. Here is a link to a spreadsheet that shows the schedule of how the income is predicted to increase. Spreadsheet

So here is my question to you, what miner should we choose for this GB?

What kind of hosting do you want, free with a slow but steady increase in profits - OR - the standard GB method with paid hosting and the eventual retirement of the mining rig?

What kind of ROI do you expect, 5%, 10%, 15%, 25% or more?

Anything else?

The more I know about what you expect and what you will and will not except the better I can server your needs.

Thanks,
James