Topic: Exchange, Cash deposit and Transfer system for India [Bitcoin] (Read 1972 times)
well guys help would be input in ideas. any time you think some thing might be good and applicable just drop in a line.
December 11, 2012, 10:06:55 AM
Not sure if Jon is on this forum, but if you want it to be a public discussion, check out Quora.com
And the plan sounds great.. Do keep us updated on the progress and any requests for help.
And the plan sounds great.. Do keep us updated on the progress and any requests for help.
December 11, 2012, 09:51:03 AM
The thing is that i want this to be community driven, with people putting in their views. the problem with me doing every thing is that i can only present my side of this. there may be better ideas that can support this. I will take your advice and get in touch with Jon Matonis, i wonder if he is a member in this forum. It would be great if all conversation stays public so that every one can see what the progress is like.
What i will do is that i will use this post to update critical updates and progress in this project so far. Thanks for the advice.
In my calculation for this body to start its audit and regulatory work would take atlease 6 months, with the first 3months to create the initial draft. the next month to classify and standardize policies according to the type of business. the 5th month being reviewing the entire audit process and setting up control mechanism, black listing process, fines, and rating system. the 6th month would be to run a alpha test.
After that the next 6months would be controlled beta test, to see what reactions take place, survey customers and check viability and profitability to the business.
i want to use this to experiment on a system that can self regulate itself. a model that can replicate in any condition, market or economy. We have a perfect currency (may be not that perfect), but this is the best we have.
The thing we dont have is a self regulation system for businesses that is transparent.
I will try to put up a first draft in a few days and we can start with that and add on other drafts as the more ideas are exchanged.
What i will do is that i will use this post to update critical updates and progress in this project so far. Thanks for the advice.
In my calculation for this body to start its audit and regulatory work would take atlease 6 months, with the first 3months to create the initial draft. the next month to classify and standardize policies according to the type of business. the 5th month being reviewing the entire audit process and setting up control mechanism, black listing process, fines, and rating system. the 6th month would be to run a alpha test.
After that the next 6months would be controlled beta test, to see what reactions take place, survey customers and check viability and profitability to the business.
i want to use this to experiment on a system that can self regulate itself. a model that can replicate in any condition, market or economy. We have a perfect currency (may be not that perfect), but this is the best we have.
The thing we dont have is a self regulation system for businesses that is transparent.
I will try to put up a first draft in a few days and we can start with that and add on other drafts as the more ideas are exchanged.
December 11, 2012, 07:16:45 AM
We had discussed setting up a Bitcoin India Foundation to govern/ mediate businesses.
You seem to be quite knowledgable with this, so why not start off and see how the response is.
I would also advice talking to Jon Matonis about this. He can guide this kind of setup very well.
You seem to be quite knowledgable with this, so why not start off and see how the response is.
I would also advice talking to Jon Matonis about this. He can guide this kind of setup very well.
December 11, 2012, 06:05:50 AM
Well the body would be involved with only businesses that deal with customers, and business to business models. the first step to to determine the frame work, have atleast 10 different individuals propose a draft, on how the regulation would take place.
The audit process for different types of businesses.
The classification of businesses.
Fair trade practices,
Anti-money laundering policy,
Voting process.(by Benson Samuel)
Rules on Submiting changes and addition to policies.
etc.
so application to B2C and B2B entities.
would love some more imputes, as this is a working idea. still a theory i would love to see it being implemented, may be with a small group that can get together.
Note- the consortium works as a regulatory body by having the members regulate it. so the body it self should not have any type of capital gain of any type.
The audit process for different types of businesses.
The classification of businesses.
Fair trade practices,
Anti-money laundering policy,
Voting process.(by Benson Samuel)
Rules on Submiting changes and addition to policies.
etc.
so application to B2C and B2B entities.
would love some more imputes, as this is a working idea. still a theory i would love to see it being implemented, may be with a small group that can get together.
Note- the consortium works as a regulatory body by having the members regulate it. so the body it self should not have any type of capital gain of any type.
December 11, 2012, 03:57:15 AM
I would assume that any mini-regulatory bodies for Bitcoin would be better off joining with the Bitcoin Foundation.
Apart from this, a voting process can determine the constituents.
Apart from this, a voting process can determine the constituents.
December 10, 2012, 10:38:52 PM
Let's say we agree to setup such a consortium.
What would be the next step in the process...?
What would be the next step in the process...?
December 10, 2012, 08:26:20 PM
Benson Samuel i agree with you. starting off like this is the best way to go. asking for permission from the government will only bring in unnecessary regulations. and unneeded heat.
What i was saying is that at this time, where in bitcoin is expanding in india, and as it is still small, i propose a creation of a self regulating body within the indian bitcoin community, concentrate in local regions. Self regulation is necessary to maintain a steady growth in India. Trust me india has very little morals when it comes to scamming and money laundering. and once bitcoin hits the streets it will get a bad rep. and in India most of them will be using this to scam people.
If there is a consortium that can give the security of trust, the likelihood of bit coin being used by more and more people within india will grow. All we need to do is to get the ball rolling and maintain a body that can be trusted.
1 . This body only regulated the member businesses in the consortium.
2 . The bodies main goal is to increase trust in the business that are running.
3 . Regulate the businesses, process and policies.
4 . Every business owner has equal say in the consortium.
6 . Any business can join.
This is necessary, as trust is some thing that can be violated easily. we have see many cases in the past where in people invest money, purchase things and even store wallets, getting their money stolen or scammed. We need to have a self regulating body without government influence, without the goal of profit. but the goal in increasing trust.
This method was not done in other countries and still not done properly. giving rise to flyby night scam artists. With India we have a chance to make it stable.
What say you?
What i was saying is that at this time, where in bitcoin is expanding in india, and as it is still small, i propose a creation of a self regulating body within the indian bitcoin community, concentrate in local regions. Self regulation is necessary to maintain a steady growth in India. Trust me india has very little morals when it comes to scamming and money laundering. and once bitcoin hits the streets it will get a bad rep. and in India most of them will be using this to scam people.
If there is a consortium that can give the security of trust, the likelihood of bit coin being used by more and more people within india will grow. All we need to do is to get the ball rolling and maintain a body that can be trusted.
1 . This body only regulated the member businesses in the consortium.
2 . The bodies main goal is to increase trust in the business that are running.
3 . Regulate the businesses, process and policies.
4 . Every business owner has equal say in the consortium.
6 . Any business can join.
This is necessary, as trust is some thing that can be violated easily. we have see many cases in the past where in people invest money, purchase things and even store wallets, getting their money stolen or scammed. We need to have a self regulating body without government influence, without the goal of profit. but the goal in increasing trust.
This method was not done in other countries and still not done properly. giving rise to flyby night scam artists. With India we have a chance to make it stable.
What say you?
December 10, 2012, 07:36:24 AM
Bitcoin is unregulated. I cannot understand why we need to ask for permission to go ahead and popularize it. This will only bring it under further scrutiny.
If it could have been outlawed and controlled, it would have started in Europe or US already, where Bitcoin is most popular.
Bitcoin is an experimental digital currency, as long as we can keep it growing to a point where it is strong enough to sustain any form of attacks, it will remain just a hobby.
Governments are not threatened by Bitcoin as yet and we need to understand that Bitcoin is the first and only ratified method of anonymous money transfer. Even if it is outlawed, it will not stop being used by people who require anonymity.
However, Working closely with Bitcoin India, I notice the growth in people and communities embracing Bitcoin.
Let us not forget that there are whole bunch of people who are using Bitcoin apart from us, they just dont write about it or speak in the forums.
I am sure that Hawaldars, Politicians and several others have already seen the benefits of Bitcoin and ARE using it as we speak.
True, I may sound more positive than things really are, but it is moving fast in that direction.
Also, there is a nice business opportunity if anyone is interested. Coinapult is a service to allow feature phones to use Bitcoin through SMS. if anyone is interested to integrate and provide this service in India, I know the person who started this service/ company.
I will try and get an update on 2 initiatives on for Bitcoin India this weekend.
And its nice to see the India forum get this active
If it could have been outlawed and controlled, it would have started in Europe or US already, where Bitcoin is most popular.
Bitcoin is an experimental digital currency, as long as we can keep it growing to a point where it is strong enough to sustain any form of attacks, it will remain just a hobby.
Governments are not threatened by Bitcoin as yet and we need to understand that Bitcoin is the first and only ratified method of anonymous money transfer. Even if it is outlawed, it will not stop being used by people who require anonymity.
However, Working closely with Bitcoin India, I notice the growth in people and communities embracing Bitcoin.
Let us not forget that there are whole bunch of people who are using Bitcoin apart from us, they just dont write about it or speak in the forums.
I am sure that Hawaldars, Politicians and several others have already seen the benefits of Bitcoin and ARE using it as we speak.
True, I may sound more positive than things really are, but it is moving fast in that direction.
Also, there is a nice business opportunity if anyone is interested. Coinapult is a service to allow feature phones to use Bitcoin through SMS. if anyone is interested to integrate and provide this service in India, I know the person who started this service/ company.
I will try and get an update on 2 initiatives on for Bitcoin India this weekend.
And its nice to see the India forum get this active
December 10, 2012, 02:02:40 AM
The CC problem is a big problem , the credit card companies can stop you from getting paid if the customer goes ahead and says that he did not receive the payment, and the banks dont understand the bitcoin system and does not take the block chaine transaction as a proof of delivery. so that is the problem.
there may be a way to get this resolved, i will talk to some of the guys in AMerican express to see that their policies on such transactions.
there may be a way to get this resolved, i will talk to some of the guys in AMerican express to see that their policies on such transactions.
how about putting a disclaimer that links to terms and conditions of use which specifically mention that blockchain information WILL be used as evidence of transactions in case of dispute. Anyone who proceeds with purchase, agrees to such terms.
KYC defeats anonymity.
Anonymity may not be a requirement for everyone.
Yes the disclaimer is a good option , but when presenting to the banks the banks need proof of delivery, the problem lies in the place where in if the banks understand the block chain transaction then the problem of chargback is resolved, but if they cant understand the concept of the block chain they will defiantly stop payment
the KYC can be modified to such that customers purchasing or selling any thing above the value of Rs 1,00,000/- to be placed under the KYC bracket. bellow that the customers can purchase and still maintain anonymity. the reason for putting the kyc in is to deter the money laundering aspect of bitcoin. the current kyc in banks applies to all customers , and also requires customers to provide identification when the value of above Rs 50,000/-.
But the first step is to have a collective consortium of businesses getting together and defining these standards, If a this consortium maintains the requirements of trust and reliable business then it will be used more. the consortium is there to regulate the businesses like the exchanges, securities, lending and borrowing, and investment, and customer redressal. once a business comes under this consortium banner it will have to follow the rules set by the consortium, and any changes to that will be black listed. the members joining would also have the ability to put fort any changes and updated to the system and rules, provided it is seconded by others there, going through votes.
once the rules are set exchanges, and other bitcoin related businesses can start operation. this will also be a good method to network with others to build business relations.
Its just an idea.
December 10, 2012, 12:52:28 AM
The CC problem is a big problem , the credit card companies can stop you from getting paid if the customer goes ahead and says that he did not receive the payment, and the banks dont understand the bitcoin system and does not take the block chaine transaction as a proof of delivery. so that is the problem.
there may be a way to get this resolved, i will talk to some of the guys in AMerican express to see that their policies on such transactions.
there may be a way to get this resolved, i will talk to some of the guys in AMerican express to see that their policies on such transactions.
how about putting a disclaimer that links to terms and conditions of use which specifically mention that blockchain information WILL be used as evidence of transactions in case of dispute. Anyone who proceeds with purchase, agrees to such terms.
KYC defeats anonymity.
Anonymity may not be a requirement for everyone.
December 09, 2012, 10:17:21 PM
@subvolatil
even if he is trying to discourage people ( which he is not), ther is nothing stopping you, or anyone else from putting him on an ignore list. He has no control over bitcoin or bitcoin businesses ( just like the government doesnt ), so he cannot STOP anyone. It is no secret that he is doing business. I have known it from day one.
Now, from this point onwards, let's please stay on topic and not dirty this thread anymore.
thank you.
Back on topic:
from your other post :
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1389366
Very true. Completely agree.
These new standards will need to be approved by a regulator. There's the first problem.
That's the second one. No regulator wants to give anyone any freedom. That is the whole point of "regulation"; Control.
This can be done by selling preloaded coin shaped retractable USB drives ( a round coin, with a usb adaptar that can pop out, and can be pushed back in), with a wallet preloaded on to it. a wallet that would not require a complete blockchain, and would allow the user to easily interface with the bitcoins ( send, receive) and the wallet ( change passphrase, generate new addresses, maintain address book, etc ). This should be OS independent and self-contained within the usb drive.
this will still require the person to be able to use and have access to a computer and an internet connection.
this is similar to https://www.casascius.com/.
Internet penetration in india is still quite low. Cell phone penetration is pretty high, and smartphones are becoming cheaper and more common place. Data service are available on phones from the word go, so a "mobile" wallet with an easy to use interface, as described above. Also an easier way of "refilling" the wallet.
Another question that i have is about credit cards.
why can't credit cards be used to purchase bitcoin?
If i were to set up a website that accepts CC payments for bitcoins, would that be a problem? from the regulator's pov, i do not see it as an issue. All credit card transactions can be tracked, and so can the bitcoin transactions. As long as a link is maintained between an order and a btc address, that should suffice, right?
beyond that point it is the "buyer's" responsibility how to break the link ( bitcoin fog anyone? ) between the address and the payment.
Such a "business" could also accept online debit card payments.
I am not aware about the legalities or the issues associated with such a setup. From all my research on bitcoin, i have noticed that no-one accepts credit card payments for bitcoins. I wonder why. something about chargebacks? i am sure this issue can be easily managed.
Maybe it is the credit card companies that need to approve the "product" before they allow payments for it?
even if he is trying to discourage people ( which he is not), ther is nothing stopping you, or anyone else from putting him on an ignore list. He has no control over bitcoin or bitcoin businesses ( just like the government doesnt ), so he cannot STOP anyone. It is no secret that he is doing business. I have known it from day one.
Now, from this point onwards, let's please stay on topic and not dirty this thread anymore.
thank you.
Back on topic:
from your other post :
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1389366
Quote
3. The chance to setup a system by studying past failures of other places, exchanges, countries and people.
Very true. Completely agree.
Quote
4. New standards mean better control and free access.
These new standards will need to be approved by a regulator. There's the first problem.
Quote
5. Staying true to the philosophy of the cypherpunks. freedom.
That's the second one. No regulator wants to give anyone any freedom. That is the whole point of "regulation"; Control.
Quote
And yes i propose that the bitcoin move out from the digital space into the physical, as the majority of the population in india is not that tech savy. a system that is easy to use for the common man , a system that will free him from the burdens of huge bank transaction fees. and a freedom to cross boundaries.
This can be done by selling preloaded coin shaped retractable USB drives ( a round coin, with a usb adaptar that can pop out, and can be pushed back in), with a wallet preloaded on to it. a wallet that would not require a complete blockchain, and would allow the user to easily interface with the bitcoins ( send, receive) and the wallet ( change passphrase, generate new addresses, maintain address book, etc ). This should be OS independent and self-contained within the usb drive.
this will still require the person to be able to use and have access to a computer and an internet connection.
this is similar to https://www.casascius.com/.
Internet penetration in india is still quite low. Cell phone penetration is pretty high, and smartphones are becoming cheaper and more common place. Data service are available on phones from the word go, so a "mobile" wallet with an easy to use interface, as described above. Also an easier way of "refilling" the wallet.
Another question that i have is about credit cards.
why can't credit cards be used to purchase bitcoin?
If i were to set up a website that accepts CC payments for bitcoins, would that be a problem? from the regulator's pov, i do not see it as an issue. All credit card transactions can be tracked, and so can the bitcoin transactions. As long as a link is maintained between an order and a btc address, that should suffice, right?
beyond that point it is the "buyer's" responsibility how to break the link ( bitcoin fog anyone? ) between the address and the payment.
Such a "business" could also accept online debit card payments.
I am not aware about the legalities or the issues associated with such a setup. From all my research on bitcoin, i have noticed that no-one accepts credit card payments for bitcoins. I wonder why. something about chargebacks? i am sure this issue can be easily managed.
Maybe it is the credit card companies that need to approve the "product" before they allow payments for it?
The standards where in you have put a regulator is not possible. the bitcoin should remain so that any one can come in to setup a system. What i meant by a standard is that a standard we set as a collective consortium, and regulate the business practices done by the members in that consortium. we set out ethical standards, and also incorporate some of the good practices and policies from the banking sectors, for e.g the KYC policy "know your customer" policy, and many others.
So in short a collective consortium that will work to give better freedom to people, better access, and also keep money laundering and illicit business practices in check.
The www.casascius.com style is a great idea , mabe we can work out some thing with this type of physical token.
The CC problem is a big problem , the credit card companies can stop you from getting paid if the customer goes ahead and says that he did not receive the payment, and the banks dont understand the bitcoin system and does not take the block chaine transaction as a proof of delivery. so that is the problem.
there may be a way to get this resolved, i will talk to some of the guys in AMerican express to see that their policies on such transactions.
December 09, 2012, 09:16:23 PM
Hi,
Due to the last post being trashed by some people who did not want to see a bitcoin movement in India happen i have started this new thread to discuss the possible ways to setup a system in india, for bitcoin transaction.
I have recommended to enter the bitcoin as a product " a keepsake product "
Secondly a currency needs to be approved by a country on then is it recognized, there for bitcoin not being approved and issued by any country would mean it is not a currency in legal terms,
So when no legal constant is there for bitcoin as legal issued currency it does not need to follow the RBI standards,
What i propose is to have our own standard set a system that gives access to every one . bitcoin is not used in india yet , but being a new form of currency we have a chance to implement a system that could be modeled around the world.
The reason India would be a good place to setup is that:-
1. Bitcoin has not reached it half limit . so there is ample flow of coins there.
2. Bitcoin is not used in india by any one, a hand full maybe 20 -30 people, making it a good bench mark to monitor and study economic growth in a eco system where new forms of currency is introduced.
3. The chance to setup a system by studying past failures of ofther places, exchanges, countries and people.
4. New standards mean better control and free access.
5. Staying true to the philosophy of the cypherpunks. freedom.
And yes i propose that the bitcoin move out from the digital space into the physical, as the majority of the population in india is not that tech savy. a system that is easy to use for the common man , a system that will free him from the burdens of huge bank transaction fees. and a freedom to cross boundaries.
I believe that through open and free discussion we can solve many problems. please do give you inputs, discuss, and encourage.
Due to the last post being trashed by some people who did not want to see a bitcoin movement in India happen i have started this new thread to discuss the possible ways to setup a system in india, for bitcoin transaction.
I have recommended to enter the bitcoin as a product " a keepsake product "
Secondly a currency needs to be approved by a country on then is it recognized, there for bitcoin not being approved and issued by any country would mean it is not a currency in legal terms,
So when no legal constant is there for bitcoin as legal issued currency it does not need to follow the RBI standards,
What i propose is to have our own standard set a system that gives access to every one . bitcoin is not used in india yet , but being a new form of currency we have a chance to implement a system that could be modeled around the world.
The reason India would be a good place to setup is that:-
1. Bitcoin has not reached it half limit . so there is ample flow of coins there.
2. Bitcoin is not used in india by any one, a hand full maybe 20 -30 people, making it a good bench mark to monitor and study economic growth in a eco system where new forms of currency is introduced.
3. The chance to setup a system by studying past failures of ofther places, exchanges, countries and people.
4. New standards mean better control and free access.
5. Staying true to the philosophy of the cypherpunks. freedom.
And yes i propose that the bitcoin move out from the digital space into the physical, as the majority of the population in india is not that tech savy. a system that is easy to use for the common man , a system that will free him from the burdens of huge bank transaction fees. and a freedom to cross boundaries.
I believe that through open and free discussion we can solve many problems. please do give you inputs, discuss, and encourage.
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