Topic: Fiat currency based economy Question (Read 446 times)

See first of all we do have limited resources during the COVID which doesn't necessarily mean that we have less inflation which would actually mean that inflation is high since it's not just interrelated with the economic activity.

Then the debt thing , every country have like a extra reservoir from which they can get the money out and distribute, for example: a country like USA. Now this gives them a little freedom to print and give people stimulus.

Fiat is surviving even now because till now we haven't found a fully functional and safe lightning network , we haven't gotten much chances at countries like:- North Korea , these countries are never going to use Fiat , now this means that the interlocked relationship between all the countries which is by fiat would be destroyed .. first we need worldwide acceptance then we do need a lot of work towards a better and stronger easily accessible network.

Yes, bitcoin and other decentralized cryptocurrencies cannot replace the national currencies of states.  The price of bitcoin and cryptocurrency in general will rise, this is also true.  However, the influence of cryptocurrency will grow only up to a certain point, namely until the interests of states are affected.  If the increase in the influence of decentralized cryptocurrency interferes with the states, they will tighten regulatory measures and here it will be necessary to look for the best options for getting out of the conflict situation.

Honestly you can see a ton of people who will criticize communism and socialism like it is a horrible thing, and I do understand that some people may think that way. However nobody talks about the horrors of capitalism neither, just because there are tons of money collected at the capitalist countries, they think it is a great way to live, and to think that you have 19 different kinds of flavors of ice cream in those nations, things do look like it is better.

But nobody says, "well if capitalism is better than communism, is there something better than capitalism?" the world is not something stagnant, so we should always try to look for better, I hate capitalism and I hate communism even more, I feel like there has to be at least one more thing that is better than all the things we have now.

Ugh.  I think that's the question OP is asking (though I can't be sure, because his post is all over the place), and I'm afraid what you wrote is going to turn out to be true.  I'm not sure what governments expect when they start rampantly printing money.  Was nothing learned from the Weimar Republic and their hyperinflation crisis? 

And if we (and I'm talking about the United States here) don't end up with massive inflation somehow, I suspect we're going to be taxed to death in the next few years.  There are some days when I wish I was 90 years old or terminally ill so I wouldn't have to face what's coming.  I say that only half in jest.

But who knows?  Maybe bitcoin or a combination of it and some altcoins will be the currency of the future.  I'm not sure how governments would handle it, but cryptocurrency is a hell of a lot better than the broken-ass fiat currency system we have now.

We do not yet have an alternative to replace the fiat currencies of states and, most likely, will not.  Decentralized cryptocurrency can only circulate in the state along with fiat currency, but cannot replace it.  Therefore, perhaps in the near future there will be a global economic crisis, which will lead to the recovery of the world economy.  Economic problems were, are and will be, but they can be solved.

Maybe bitcoin is not accepted in their country. I do believe that government has remain neutral about bitcoin and are waiting or bitcoin could be under observation on what could it do good wherein a decentralized technology to be mixed in centralized system. For now, yes government possibly will not allow in this but government did not also say that it will eradicated. Bitcoin just remain independent and has not been controlled by any government. This is somewhat good in my opinion so that the purpose of bitcoin using pseudonym, p2p networks and other form away from centralized system will remain to be enjoyed by the users.

What do you mean when you say:"..because government won’t allow it"
Bitcoin is legally revised in many developed countries, bitcoin is traded on world exchanges, bitcoin can be used as payment for goods, bitcoin is taxed ... etc.
It's too late to ban Bitcoin, the war is lost. One can only try to compete by creating other cryptocurrencies such as CBDC.

Do you have any knowledge about economy or how all these things works? Because, I have noticed that some of you that are saying this are saying just because you like Bitcoin, and you have looked into the possibilities of what you’re saying and whether it’s a better option or not, you just say it.

It’s not something that we are going to force to happen, you just have to understand the purpose as to wish everything was made, maybe with time everything will be right. We all know already even if we are going to be switching to cryptocurrencies, it’s not going to be Bitcoin because government won’t allow it. Bitcoin is in its own league.

Well That's how the Bitcoin will be one world currency maybe? 

Have you heard in your entire life that less economic activity means less economic growth? Less economic growth means that life will develop in lower rate. When GDP falls, people lose jobs and their income decrease or gets non-existent. When people lose job and income, they depend on their savings. Savings can't last forever. Also, some economists say that if we increasing inequality, i.e. richers will have to pay high taxes, it will also cause the decrease of economic growth (but I don't think so). Well, fiat isn't a winner there, it's truly shown that bitcoin succeed in the worst moment, when there was 0 hope in currencies, btc shined.

I have only heard this kind of reasoning from you that government don't control fiat? I think they do in different ways.

1. Printing of money through the central bank: This is obvious to know that the government controls even the central bank to extent to direct how much to be printed and sent to commercial banks which is the channel that money is circulated to the system. So the government have absolute control of fiat.

2. World bank : The world bank you said is made of different people from many countries and they are led by policies which are made by people. They are given powers by government through delegation or elections.

3. Taxation: The government rise or reduce tax charge depending on the policy they want to control through fiat.

In general, the government do have control over fiat.

First off, at least here in the United States, inflation was very low before, unlike what you stated.  It's been low for the past decade or so.  I want to say last time I looked, it was roughly around 1.5% for the past decade.  Also, fiat is not the winner.  Stimulus and quantitative easing have been a large part of covid -19, which only does anything but help fiats long term outlook.

Obviously if you shut down fiat economy in a crypto related forum you are going to get a lot of support because we ran away from fiat world and came to crypto world because we have seen the things you have seen in the fiat world as well. However that is the exact reason why bitcoin nearly became 20k as well, bitcoin rises because fiat becomes less valuable.

Just in this 2020 year we have seen the debt of USA increase 25% and that is not something we would love to see, if the governments taxed the huge companies accordingly, they could have found 600 billion dollars in taxes very very easily, and that would be enough money to give to "people" as stimulus, and they could have removed all the money they paid for companies as well. Yet here we are, dollar became less valuable which caused bitcoin to be more valuable.

The fact that they considered printing money in order to address such issue would definitely cause hyperinflation. This would backfire immediately in the US as the value of every dollar would drop globally.

Assuming that cryptocurrencies would become the 'new currency', wouldn't its price be subjected depending on who owns majority of the bitcoins stored due to its limited amount? I just hope that they consider cryptocurrencies as an 'alternative' payment method to most services and products available.

See i can agreed with you that covid19 brought inflation in so many countries but disagreed that fiat currency based on economy of a country, if you ask me i will like to have brief explanation via that, even when looking from lay man understand it's quite clear that government of a country don't even have much authorities to control fiat currency, I think these fiat of a thing is controlled by world bank according to the resources of a country. So in general it's obvious that decentralized currency is only cryptocurrency alone.

There is no need to increase taxes when you have controlled inflation. You must have heard about "inflation is a hidden tax" or Friedman's "inflation is taxation without legislation" right? Well, a trillion USD debt now will worth significantly less in the next 10 or 20 years. The key is to keep the interest rate on savings accounts slightly lower than the inflation rate, and still tax them.

The Covid-19 virus was a sunflower that revealed the weakness of the existing financial system in most countries of the world and proved the strength of Bitcoin, at a time when inflation occurred in most countries of the world and financial systems began to falter on the verge of collapse, Bitcoin remained steadfast and was able to overcome these difficult circumstances and proved that Stronger than all those failed systems.
The only problem that Bitcoin suffers from is the problem of slow verifications, and this problem can be overcome in the future by some solutions such as Bitcoin's lightning network or others.

The US dollar was adopted as global HODL reserve currency due to america's economy being relatively stable, reliable and prosperous in terms of history.

Investment in china is purely political.

Chinese capitalists like Jack Ma build corporations like alibaba only to have the chinese communist party force them to step down. CCP replaces chinese capitalist CEOs with their own CCP personnel so that the state owns and controls everything. There is a considerable amount of friction between the CCP and chinese capitalists atm. As many CCP who takeover chinese corporations and banks are running them into the ground.

If Elon Musk was chinese and tesla was a chinese corporation. The CCP would force Elon Musk to step down and replace him with someone far less knowledgeable and capable to ensure CCP control and ownership over everything. And that is simply not a good way to do business.

....

Last sentence of following quote applies.

Why the fiat base currency has not collapse yet to me is due to the fact that it is backed by the government and it central back who simply print new not to make up for any loses and lapses, the government can borrow from other country just to found it project in that way it fiat base is given a break just to meet up and keep going but it not so with cryptocurrency.

To be honest, you offer to transfer from a high-speed train to a cart to the whole world.
What technical capabilities are we talking about? About a payment that takes 4-6 hours to complete? It just dont have enough TPS. Or about the need to infinitely split 1 BTC into 0.0000000000000001 so that everyone has enough coins for everyday use? The uncontrolled exchange rate that causes people to commit suicide when the market suddenly fell and they had leverage? Or about the inability to track the thief of your money who hacked your wallet?

BTC definitely does not have any features as payment system that would be at least something better than fiat as such. At the moment, it is heavy, inconvenient, slow and monstrous for the average consumer who just wants to buy bread in the store.
You are not suggesting a solution to the problem, you are creating another one

I wouldn't like anything better than the US to recover and get out of this train of debt. The comparison with post WWII world may not be apt though. USA was one of the few world economies with untapped potential and a largely unscathed home turf (compared to Europe). The world wasn't open enough to think of any other alternatives than the powerhouses like USSR and USA. Much of the industrial development which led to enormous prosperity was yet to be made.

In the present scenario, its mostly about who has the most factories and the most consumption in a global market. Several countries have emerged as alternatives to the US. China being the most prominent. Already, investors are banking on a Chinese resurgence and investments are flowing into China. The shitshow in USA in terms of sheer divisiveness, stupidity and Trumpism is a pale marker of its former glory. If the debt condition was to worsen, I wouldn't bank on the US economy to show a miracle turnaround.

 Crypto is a decentralized currency which is not by any government of the world.No country can control or forcing crypto to pump or reduce in the market because since we enter pandemic many cryptocurrencies where reducing every day by day in the exchange market. Government can demand for more fiat money to be print, to end inflation in the country which government cannot demand for more crypto to be print because crypto is a decentralized currency. Many countries are still experiencing what covid-19 has caused in the country over 8 months, that is making the economy of the country to reduce to zero level.  Hardship everywhere that is making the citizens think, if only fiat money can help them to survive this pandemic that is collapsing, so many things in the country.
Our government is trying to do everything possible to make sure deflation, is all over the country to enable the citizens to live well in the country. Since we came out from covid-19 many people has resume work why some have resume their business and still maintaining the law the government has put in place by wearing of facemask and washing of hands all the time to stop spreading of covid-19 in the country.

It might not necessarily collapse due to government debt, because in reality central banks are able to infinitely finance governments even if they proclaim themselves to be independent entities.

It might not even collapse due to inflation, since that is tied to not only money supply but also variables such as consumer sentiment and aggregate demand.

What is certain though is that a reset will be imminent. Perhaps it'll be political, conflict, who knows. No one knows when the current fiat order will prevail until. And until a collapse does happen, I don't think that BTC is necessarily going to be an "alternative" or a "replacement" to fiat. It'll stay as a store of value that appeals to a niche.

On a broader historical timeline, US debt to GDP ratios aren't far from post World War II levels. We've been here before with disaster being averted. Good decision making and policies could reduce debt over a course of decades as occurred post WWII.

Experts have warned about deficit and debt forever and people tend to assume if a crash hasn't occurred yet, it never will. Unfortunately that's not necessarily the case.

Conspiracy theorists claim debt based economies of the world must collapse simultaneously for a "great reset" and "new world order" to be adopted on a global scale. Its one potential explanation for economies of the world which may normally have collapsed, being temporarily propped up bailouts and loans.

The debt system is always pegged to fail but the governments of the world and central banks of the world keep printing money to pay the debt and continue life as always so nothing really happens.

There are crashes here and there time to time that makes the economy suck for a while but after that it recovers and grows bigger and bigger due to debt and then crashes again and repeats. That is why it is really not going to sustain forever but at the same time if they want to make it go on as long as possible they can until it fails so spectacularly that there is no way to blow it up and make it better all from scratch.

Debt in the world grows so fast that it caused memes like "world owns 40+ trillion debt, to who? Mars?" type of jokes and that shows how sad the situation is.

Fiat currency have taken a route from poor people to reach, rich people in-turn have inflated property prices, the retail inflation as you said will rise and it will surely rise but not going to convert into hyper inflation.

Actually not, quite the opposite because the government must provide incentive funds to the community and stimulate the economy during covid-19, especially during the lockdown in several regions of the country. For example, the Treasury Department's Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) has printed a massive amount of money during the Pandemic more than in the first two centuries which can lead to inflation.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/us-printed-more-money-in-one-month-than-in-two-centuries

https://news.bitcoin.com/9-trillion-in-stimulus-injections-the-feds-2020-pump-eclipses-two-centuries-of-usd-creation/

Covid-19 has hurt the economy and led to inflation when inflation occurs the value of the fiat currency declines as the economy declines it depends on the country's economy and controls the government development of the economy is not possible without fiat currency. From farmers to the poor they depend on fiat to meet their basic needs many do not have any knowledge of btc in terms of technology farmers and pharmacies are much more profitable in maintaining a fiat currency based economy.

Inflation was not saved by the Covid-19.Covid -19 had created a new inflation due to the uncontrollable economic activity.Many street vendors had earned a lot by securing the social distancing and fear of people.Even price of vegetable was sell at double and triple of original price.In a same time,the farmers get the money less than a margin value .The middle man had gained a lot from Covid -19.

Slow confirmation is no longer a problem. Getting at least 1 confirmation is quicker this time despite bitcoin's price is high. Everyone is expecting to have a congested network because of it but it seems that we're seeing a different version of it.

Why would they? because it's profitable and they see a lot of people making money from it? We will see that happen anytime soon because they can't disregard it anymore. Cryptos are being recognized so it's really going to happen.

A lot of money does not mean that its value can decline, but the depth of countries financial policies and the fundamental reasons that pushed them to print money. And if it does not have a clear plan for that, then it means devaluation and more disastrous effects for the citizens of those countries.

Many countries printed a lot of money for decades, but fragile states will see the impact of inflation faster.

One of the reasons fiats didn't collapse was due to  governments not over printing and channeling them to non-productive and consumption based sector of economy . If that had happened, goods and services would have inflated alot if they were not produced quickly enough.


The less economic activity has to correspond with the goods/services produced otherwise there could still be inflation... unless goods and services are produced in high quantities while demand is low

it depending on your income tax level , like US have 0-20% a year , since they has classifiing crypto is  as property and taxed in the same way that stocks are. btw , this is for more info about crypto tax

me too actually, in the beginning everything going well , but as the time goes, bitcoin become popular, and also price become totally "WoW" , so what i thought now, goverment try to make a regulation for people who want or who have bitcoin. i cant imagine someday btc will became centralized which only certain people can have  due to tight regulations at a later date.

At some point OP, I tend to agree that inflation has decreased because of the pandemic and it will kick again once the economy started to reopen.  However, in some places like in my country, we have started reopening the economy, and prices of commodities and services are really painful in the wallet considering that most of the citizens are still in the search of a new job after losing it because of the pandemic but no one shall be blamed if everyone knows how to adapt in the current situation.

The mere fact that fiat would crash again due to inflation after the reopening of the economy it can be reasonable if the economy would adopt decentralized finances or cryptocurrencies such as Bitcoin.  Though IMO it is the best resolution I must admit that citizens in my country are not yet ready for it due to a lot of reasons like the technology and familiarization about it.  In fact, if you would go out here and ask anyone outside if they know bitcoin or any cryptocurrency they will answer you promptly that they haven't heard of it before.

In my idea, we can definitely go and shift to cryptocurrency however the government should first take an action towards these issues for global awareness and technology that is the necessity for it.

I try to be realistic. 

Bitcoin probably won't replace the US dollar, yuan, and euro.  In the middle of the next decade, central bank currencies (CBDCs) will dominate. 

Until then, however, we will see bitcoin prices rise.  The rise in the value of bitcoins is a signal of an impending transformation of the global financial system. 

This will bring about one of the greatest redistributions of capital in the history of mankind.  At the same time, the current financial elites will retain their wealth and influence.  Cypherpunks won't be able to come to power...

I'm a skeptic.  I don't think the world will be better or freer in the future.

Experts say that in 2022 in the United States, payments on US obligations will exceed the amount of taxes collected, and it will be necessary to turn on the printing press for money again.
https://bitnovosti.com/2020/06/14/kogda-fiatnaya-valyuta-umiraet/
This will cause hyperinflation and depreciation of the dollar as a world currency. The world will need a new currency that is not subject to inflation.

What will it be? Maybe BTC 

So how they will go after crypto taxes? We should be fair of course when one was deducted a tax then it should be fair to all that should be deducted but how could it be done?

Anyway, I do not like that crypto can get taxes and that the decentralization and no third party service feature will be defeated. Satoshi Nakamoto created bitcoin because of this tax thing which centralized system implemented like in those banks are greatly the reason why cryptocurrency mainly the bitcoin was created.

fully verify yourself for crypto trading, such as syncing with your bank account etc. LMAO .
btw, u must take it too serious, about why fiat debt system still not collapse its because there is no better solution than that.
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Based on my understanding, sorry if I was wrong before, the current economic system is designed to make us diligent at work, the value of a fiat currency can drop at any time, but well, that happens if the country experiences an economic collapse, the solution so that is reducing unemployment but it can cause inflation because the more the salary comes out, the more currency is printed, more tax must be payed, how do they avoid inflation, at least by buying assets like gold, just a few percent from their salary i guess its good enough for future, so that their wealth is safe from inflation.
that economic system has been running for a long time, I'm not sure it can be changed, Covid does save fiat value, but it also creates mass recessions in certain countries.
when u talking bitcoin as a solution for that, nah , there are still many shortcomings of bitcoin, low speed transaction, high electricity cost. some survey has told 1 bitcoin transaction is equal to 100,000 visa transaction ,about electricity usage, i cant imagine how much it will cost if everyone uses bitcoin as payment, and how long it will be processed.

So how come this fiat based debt based system have not Collapsed yet?

There is a lot debt all over the World wich means also a lot money!!
A lot money means value can go down.
The inflation was really high before the covid 19
Covid saved fiat currency value!
Less transactions means less economic actvity less economic activity means less inflation...

So the fiat currency is the biggest winner in this covid situation !!

Now... This just temporary once the economy is going to be re opened the inflation will hit again.
And there is nothing that can back up fiat.

Loans and debts cant back up becouse people are all ready in situation they cant pay back the debt never!
So.....  What is the Solution?  Stable currency cant be becouse its a same old fiat based currency
Bitcoin could be the solution to be honest
I dont see any better ways then Bitcoin it is...
Btc have the most techical capability for that.

Only obstacle is slow confirmations.

But yea... The fiat system looking really bad...
And covid saved fiat currency against inflation 
Once they re open economy its bad for fiat currency value.

The ammount of money they been printing it means they must start extermly high taxes...

I guess they start to go after cryptocurrency traders and give high taxes...

But those high taxes is only Short time tools to save economy..
.....  What's next?