Topic: Finland and Sweden OFFICIALLY announce their intention to join NATO (Read 315 times)

Turkey has blocked the start of negotiations on Finland and Sweden joining NATO.

They are just raising the price for NATO members, but I think they will not veto them, IMHO.

It is unlikely that Turkey will actually block Swedish and Finnish memberships into NATO, but it may seek a price for agreeing to let them join. Their demands may include, for example, lifting of the Swedish arms embargo against Turkey. Being a member of NATO and maintaining an arms embargo on another country within the same alliance is unreasonable.

The problem with the S-400 and F35 fighters can be easily solved if desired, but there is a more serious problem. Turkey's ambassador to Sweden says the main reason Turkey opposes Sweden's NATO membership is that Sweden should sever its ties with the YPG, which Turkey has branded as terrorist. In general, the Kurdish issue is already a hundred years old and it will definitely not be possible to solve it in a couple of days.

The Kurdistan Workers party (PKK) is already recognized as a terrorist organization by Sweden as well as the EU and the US, so I'm not sure what Turkey actually wants to achieve with this. As for the YPG, they have received weapons and training from the US-led anti-Isis coalition in the fight against Isis in Syria, so Sweden is not the only country that has "ties" with the YPG.

Well, three weeks have passed and I'm ready to return to this dialogue again.

Quote

And also Türkiye is an important Ally with strategic geographic location, being a Black Sea nation, but also bordering Iraq and Syria. And Türkiye has played a key role in our fight against terrorist groups like ISIS / Da’esh. We also need to take into account that no other NATO Ally hosts more refugees than Türkiye. And that Türkiye is playing a key role in providing support to Ukraine. And they are now also playing a key role in the efforts to find a solution on how to export the grain from Ukraine. So when a vital, key Ally like Türkiye raises a concern like terrorism, then of course we have to sit down and take this seriously. And that's exactly what we do.

The NATO Secretary General in Finland gave a press conference, a quote from there.

Finland is not going to extradite to Turkey people whom the Turkish government accuses of terrorism

Finland rules out joining NATO without Sweden

Has Turkey blocked Finland and Sweden from entering NATO, or is it too early to draw any conclusions?

Veprecrypt

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I think it's a dangerous maneuver

merchantofzeny

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Quote from: af_newbie on May 15, 2022, 12:03:20 PM

Quote from: merchantofzeny on May 15, 2022, 11:52:54 AM

Well Finland and possibly Sweden better get in fast while Russia is distracted with the whole Ukraine issue. At least Ukraine didn't suffer for nothing.

Quote from: Synchronice on May 15, 2022, 08:47:24 AM

Reminder:
The process of joining the US-led military bloc NATO requires the approval of the existing 30 member states. At the moment Erdogan says Turkey not supportive of Finland, Sweden joining NATO [Source: ^Reuters]

LOL is Turkey still bitter about not being allowed into the EU? Or there's some deal with Russia? Interesting to find out it's by consensus rather than by majority vote. Kinda like ASEAN and how China basically can veto anything that it disapprove via its proxies in the bloc.

Turkey can leave NATO anytime.

I just found it funny that his reason is that these Nordic countries "home to many terrorist organizations".

Marvelman

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Quote from: be.open on May 18, 2022, 01:43:45 PM

Quote from: Marvelman on May 18, 2022, 11:36:54 AM

Turkey has blocked the start of negotiations on Finland and Sweden joining NATO.

They are just raising the price for NATO members, but I think they will not veto them, IMHO.

It is unlikely that Turkey will actually block Swedish and Finnish memberships into NATO, but it may seek a price for agreeing to let them join. Their demands may include, for example, lifting of the Swedish arms embargo against Turkey. Being a member of NATO and maintaining an arms embargo on another country within the same alliance is unreasonable.

The problem with the S-400 and F35 fighters can be easily solved if desired, but there is a more serious problem. Turkey's ambassador to Sweden says the main reason Turkey opposes Sweden's NATO membership is that Sweden should sever its ties with the YPG, which Turkey has branded as terrorist. In general, the Kurdish issue is already a hundred years old and it will definitely not be possible to solve it in a couple of days.

The Kurdistan Workers party (PKK) is already recognized as a terrorist organization by Sweden as well as the EU and the US, so I'm not sure what Turkey actually wants to achieve with this. As for the YPG, they have received weapons and training from the US-led anti-Isis coalition in the fight against Isis in Syria, so Sweden is not the only country that has "ties" with the YPG.

LTU_btc

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Slava Ukraini!

Quote from: be.open on May 17, 2022, 11:22:47 PM

Ukraine needed to think about this before cultivating an anti-Russian policy and building its national self-identity on the idea of "Ukraine is anti-Russia."

n addition, you talk about the accession of Finland and Sweden to NATO as a fait accompli, but Turkey explicitly expresses its disagreement and readiness to use its veto. Erdogan owes Putin and it seems the time has come to repay the debt.

Like anti-Russian thing in Ukraine happened without any reason and actions of Russia didn't caused it.
I'm not talking about it as already happened fact. Turkey isn't completely against it, but they have some demands for Finland and Sweden in order for them to join NATO.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-17/what-turkey-wants-from-sweden-and-finland-in-nato-expansion-spat

be.open

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Quote from: Marvelman on May 18, 2022, 11:36:54 AM

Turkey has blocked the start of negotiations on Finland and Sweden joining NATO.

They are just raising the price for NATO members, but I think they will not veto them, IMHO.

It is unlikely that Turkey will actually block Swedish and Finnish memberships into NATO, but it may seek a price for agreeing to let them join. Their demands may include, for example, lifting of the Swedish arms embargo against Turkey. Being a member of NATO and maintaining an arms embargo on another country within the same alliance is unreasonable.

The problem with the S-400 and F35 fighters can be easily solved if desired, but there is a more serious problem. Turkey's ambassador to Sweden says the main reason Turkey opposes Sweden's NATO membership is that Sweden should sever its ties with the YPG, which Turkey has branded as terrorist. In general, the Kurdish issue is already a hundred years old and it will definitely not be possible to solve it in a couple of days.

And all this does not negate what I said above - Erdogan owes Putin for saving his ass from a coup d'état and Turkey really does not want to quarrel with Russia, because the Turkish economy is now in a steep peak and formally there is already hyperinflation.

Marvelman

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Turkey has blocked the start of negotiations on Finland and Sweden joining NATO.

They are just raising the price for NATO members, but I think they will not veto them, IMHO.

It is unlikely that Turkey will actually block Swedish and Finnish memberships into NATO, but it may seek a price for agreeing to let them join. Their demands may include, for example, lifting of the Swedish arms embargo against Turkey. Being a member of NATO and maintaining an arms embargo on another country within the same alliance is unreasonable.

be.open

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Quote from: be.open on May 17, 2022, 11:22:47 PM

They are just raising the price for NATO members, but I think they will not veto them, IMHO.

Turkey has blocked the start of negotiations on Finland and Sweden joining NATO.

af_newbie

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Quote from: LTU_btc on May 17, 2022, 04:09:49 PM

So, Russia should be happy now. Instead of potentially having border with NATO in Ukraine in future, now they will have 1300km border with NATO in Finland, just less than 200km from north capital St. Petersburg, plys Sweden nearby. Actions of Russia in Ukraine simply left no other choice for Sweden and Finland and pushed to join NATO. They can't stay neutral.

Quote from: LTU_btc on May 17, 2022, 04:09:49 PM

Putin said today that he has no problems with Finland and Sweden. But if their entry into NATO entails existential threats to Russia in the form of NATO military bases or US nuclear arsenals appearing on their territory, then Russia will make its military-technical response, whatever that means.

Is it not double standard? Why Finland and Sweden can join NATO and Ukraine can't. Before war started, Ukraine wasn't even close from joining NATO, not even talking about NATO military bases and nuclear weapons there.

Ukraine needed to think about this before cultivating an anti-Russian policy and building its national self-identity on the idea of "Ukraine is anti-Russia."

n addition, you talk about the accession of Finland and Sweden to NATO as a fait accompli, but Turkey explicitly expresses its disagreement and readiness to use its veto. Erdogan owes Putin and it seems the time has come to repay the debt.

And Russia needs to get the fuck out of Ukraine before all their soldiers die.

Turkey will bend over backward to get the latest fighter jets from the US.

They are just raising the price for NATO members, but I think they will not veto them, IMHO.

be.open

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So, Russia should be happy now. Instead of potentially having border with NATO in Ukraine in future, now they will have 1300km border with NATO in Finland, just less than 200km from north capital St. Petersburg, plys Sweden nearby. Actions of Russia in Ukraine simply left no other choice for Sweden and Finland and pushed to join NATO. They can't stay neutral.

Putin said today that he has no problems with Finland and Sweden. But if their entry into NATO entails existential threats to Russia in the form of NATO military bases or US nuclear arsenals appearing on their territory, then Russia will make its military-technical response, whatever that means.

Is it not double standard? Why Finland and Sweden can join NATO and Ukraine can't. Before war started, Ukraine wasn't even close from joining NATO, not even talking about NATO military bases and nuclear weapons there.

Ukraine needed to think about this before cultivating an anti-Russian policy and building its national self-identity on the idea of "Ukraine is anti-Russia."

n addition, you talk about the accession of Finland and Sweden to NATO as a fait accompli, but Turkey explicitly expresses its disagreement and readiness to use its veto. Erdogan owes Putin and it seems the time has come to repay the debt.

LTU_btc

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Slava Ukraini!

So, Russia should be happy now. Instead of potentially having border with NATO in Ukraine in future, now they will have 1300km border with NATO in Finland, just less than 200km from north capital St. Petersburg, plys Sweden nearby. Actions of Russia in Ukraine simply left no other choice for Sweden and Finland and pushed to join NATO. They can't stay neutral.

Quote from: af_newbie on May 16, 2022, 08:47:08 PM

Putin said today that he has no problems with Finland and Sweden. But if their entry into NATO entails existential threats to Russia in the form of NATO military bases or US nuclear arsenals appearing on their territory, then Russia will make its military-technical response, whatever that means.

Is it not double standard? Why Finland and Sweden can join NATO and Ukraine can't. Before war started, Ukraine wasn't even close from joining NATO, not even talking about NATO military bases and nuclear weapons there.

suzanne5223

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Quote from: suzanne5223 on May 16, 2022, 06:09:08 PM

Quote from: yazher on May 16, 2022, 01:05:44 AM

Quote from: suzanne5223 on May 15, 2022, 10:54:35 AM

The Russian government invaded Ukraine to prevent other Northern Europe countries from joining the NATO but it shows that some neighboring countries to Russia appear not to care about what the Russian may do after their decision in joining NATO.
All this happens because the Russian government is doing things with military force instead of them persuading and maturely talking with their neighboring countries about their decision in joining NATO.
In the meantime, let's wait and see if the Finland decision will push through.

I think they were just waiting for Ukraine to get invaded and when they saw the result was not what they expected, they quickly jump to conclusion that they really need to join NATO for their protection and support in case of a Russian sudden invasion. It seems like when they will be invaded as well in the future, they expected war supplies from their alliances and some sanctions against the invader. But things like this are not good for their country because what if they miscalculated? what if their country won't be invaded rather it would be destroyed with one single nuke? they need to consider reviewing back their decisions if they wanted to protect their citizens.

You make a point, Finland could be waiting to see the outcome of the Ukraine invasion before they make their decision but honestly, the conflict is not good for both countries because it will affect the economic structure in the market and if the Russian government invades Finland in the future as you said. There's a chance for Russia to loose their reputation.

I don't think Russia will lose its reputation. It is clear as day that Russia is a terrorist state to anyone with an ounce of humanity in them.

Russians and their reputation as sadistic killers of civilians will follow them for decades.

When said Russia will lose its reputation, I was talking about the level of fear people had for them due to their government's sadistic habits and this is still because of political error.
By the way, I am seeing things about the Russian invasion of other Northern EU countries due to their decision in joining NATO. I think this could lead to a change of political leader in Russia but time will tell though.

af_newbie

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Quote from: suzanne5223 on May 16, 2022, 06:09:08 PM

Quote from: yazher on May 16, 2022, 01:05:44 AM

Quote from: suzanne5223 on May 15, 2022, 10:54:35 AM

The Russian government invaded Ukraine to prevent other Northern Europe countries from joining the NATO but it shows that some neighboring countries to Russia appear not to care about what the Russian may do after their decision in joining NATO.
All this happens because the Russian government is doing things with military force instead of them persuading and maturely talking with their neighboring countries about their decision in joining NATO.
In the meantime, let's wait and see if the Finland decision will push through.

I think they were just waiting for Ukraine to get invaded and when they saw the result was not what they expected, they quickly jump to conclusion that they really need to join NATO for their protection and support in case of a Russian sudden invasion. It seems like when they will be invaded as well in the future, they expected war supplies from their alliances and some sanctions against the invader. But things like this are not good for their country because what if they miscalculated? what if their country won't be invaded rather it would be destroyed with one single nuke? they need to consider reviewing back their decisions if they wanted to protect their citizens.

You make a point, Finland could be waiting to see the outcome of the Ukraine invasion before they make their decision but honestly, the conflict is not good for both countries because it will affect the economic structure in the market and if the Russian government invades Finland in the future as you said. There's a chance for Russia to loose their reputation.

I don't think Russia will lose its reputation. It is clear as day that Russia is a terrorist state to anyone with an ounce of humanity in them.

Russians and their reputation as sadistic killers of civilians will follow them for decades.

suzanne5223

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Quote from: yazher on May 16, 2022, 01:05:44 AM

Quote from: suzanne5223 on May 15, 2022, 10:54:35 AM

The Russian government invaded Ukraine to prevent other Northern Europe countries from joining the NATO but it shows that some neighboring countries to Russia appear not to care about what the Russian may do after their decision in joining NATO.
All this happens because the Russian government is doing things with military force instead of them persuading and maturely talking with their neighboring countries about their decision in joining NATO.
In the meantime, let's wait and see if the Finland decision will push through.

I think they were just waiting for Ukraine to get invaded and when they saw the result was not what they expected, they quickly jump to conclusion that they really need to join NATO for their protection and support in case of a Russian sudden invasion. It seems like when they will be invaded as well in the future, they expected war supplies from their alliances and some sanctions against the invader. But things like this are not good for their country because what if they miscalculated? what if their country won't be invaded rather it would be destroyed with one single nuke? they need to consider reviewing back their decisions if they wanted to protect their citizens.

You make a point, Finland could be waiting to see the outcome of the Ukraine invasion before they make their decision but honestly, the conflict is not good for both countries because it will affect the economic structure in the market and if the Russian government invades Finland in the future as you said. There's a chance for Russia to loose their reputation.

be.open

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Quote from: af_newbie on May 16, 2022, 02:05:32 PM

Quote from: af_newbie on May 16, 2022, 02:05:32 PM

Putin said today that he has no problems with Finland and Sweden. But if their entry into NATO entails existential threats to Russia in the form of NATO military bases or US nuclear arsenals appearing on their territory, then Russia will make its military-technical response, whatever that means.

Now, it should be clear to anyone with half a brain that the 'problem with Ukraine' was not about its NATO membership or 'prosecution of the Russian language', but simply full access to the Black Sea, farmland, and Donbas resources.

Finland's and Sweden's NATO memberships are not a 'problem' for Russia now even though Russia's border with NATO increased substantially.

The 'problem with Ukraine' is the dementia and courage of Ukrainian nationalists. Scandinavians are more balanced people.

Of course, there will be nuclear weapons and NATO bases in Finland. Why do you think they are joining? To get membership cards?

Sweden has already stated that its accession to NATO will not entail the appearance of NATO military bases and nuclear weapons on its territory. I think Finland will prudently follow its example, because Putin, in a conversation with the President of Finland, clearly said that this was a mistake. It's time to start listening to what Putin says, because he has already shown that he is not bluffing or joking.

Quote from: af_newbie on May 16, 2022, 02:05:32 PM

BTW, Russians are eradicating the Ukrainian language and culture in the occupied territories. School curricula have been changed to completely Russify the population, and completely ignore the needs of the native population of the occupied territories.

Russkiy fucking mir. Russians are the true Nazis.

I hope Ukrainians will keep killing Russians until the last one leaves their lands.

The hopes of young men are nourished.

af_newbie

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