Author

Topic: For those who have no idea what to do (Read 4454 times)

legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
October 06, 2014, 03:41:09 PM
#66
Should you sell?  Should you buy?  Should you HODL?  Should you diversify?

The OP starts out quite nicely and balanced. But then it goes on listing only arguments, some of them invalid, why you should get out ASAP.

If you are using entropy as a metaphor, you should also note that decreasing entropy does not mean that the system is getting in any way "better" and increasing entropy does not mean the opposite. If you start up a power plant, it's entropy certainly increases, but that is how you get it to generate electrical output.

Biased. Ignored.

Except I didn't.  Literally the only concrete advice given in the entire post is not not take extreme positions, e.g. 100% HODL or 100% sell.

Also, volatility was the indicator I put forth as a measure of systemic instability, not entropy.

Edit:  Since when did all the legendaries become the cheerleaders from Bring it On?
anu
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
RepuX - Enterprise Blockchain Protocol
October 06, 2014, 03:35:16 PM
#65
Should you sell?  Should you buy?  Should you HODL?  Should you diversify?

The OP starts out quite nicely and balanced. But then it goes on listing only arguments, some of them invalid, why you should get out ASAP.

If you are using entropy as a metaphor, you should also note that decreasing entropy does not mean that the system is getting in any way "better" and increasing entropy does not mean the opposite. If you start up a power plant, it's entropy certainly increases, but that is how you get it to generate electrical output.

Biased. Ignored.
hero member
Activity: 583
Merit: 500
October 06, 2014, 03:12:48 PM
#64
To the joint.

I found your post helpful, very helpful and if more people held and applied your thoughts as regard to people's aid and guidance we probably would never have had a bitcoin system appear, we would have been enough for each other.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
October 06, 2014, 02:05:09 PM
#63
I held back on that post because I thought maybe you were just feeling sorry for someone and wanted to add a little advice. I just wanted to frame your post in the context that it isn't a win-lose game... mostly because I admit to being a firm believer in Bitcoin. Now I just need to clarify why I felt it was in remiss.

I don't like watching anyone here panic, or lose money.  It's not a good feeling.  I didn't think that interjecting the word "game" once would actually avert your attention onto that word and blow it up and forget about everything that came before it.  Half of your entire first response to this post fixated on that one word all by itself.  Sorry, I'll rephrase.  I don't still have stake in the "game," but I still have stake in "[insert other arbitrary label that's completely beside the point here]."

Quote
You made good points about history, but then you talked about systemic death and entropy. Misuse of the term entropy is a pet peeve of mine. It's worse than quantum. There's no need to argue about them here.

Here you go, Slick. Here's your entropy:

Quote
en·tro·py
lack of order or predictability; gradual decline into disorder.
"a marketplace where entropy reigns supreme"
synonyms:   deterioration, degeneration, crumbling, decline, degradation, decomposition, breaking down, collapse

It's not misuse.  You made the complaint (that I'll get to in a second) that placing Bitcoin in an accurate context is irrelevant, and then you go and misplace entropy into a context irrelevant to this discussion.  Entropy as a term can be applied more broadly than what you think.

Quote
But I am completely at a loss why you felt you needed to post this in the first place. What was your presumption?

The title of the thread didn't give you any indication?    The title is, "For those who have no idea what to do."  My presumption is that there are people who have no idea what to do.

Quote
Emotions aren't something people need to be talked through by posting, they are what people need to learn to deal with.

Where did you get the impression this was a counseling session?  Although, the OP can help you to deal with emotions by focusing less on what is unknown (which triggers the stressful emotions) and focusing on what is knowable (thereby hopefully alleviating some stress).

Quote
If people are simply speculating without any understanding, then they deserve no advice at all, nor would they want any.

That's what dicks say.  Some people try very hard to understand and don't.

Quote
Better advice would have been to go talk to someone IRL, not try to feel some sense of "internally and externally consistent context" that Bitcoin is somehow part of some machine and that sometimes machine parts fail. I don't see it that way at all. Forgive me for saying this but you had no moral authority to talk about Bitcoin failing as if you understood the emergent complexities of OPEN SOURCE systems. There are no books on this yet. They are being written as this technology and philosophy unfolds.

"...you had no moral authority to talk about Bitcoin failing as if..."

Lol WHAT?!  I don't even.  Who and where the...

Quote
Besides, the post ended up being a rallying post for Bitcoin bashers that agreed with you without even understanding what you were talking about.

You must be really having a bad day.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
October 06, 2014, 01:27:12 PM
#62
This is a disheartening post.

Likewise Sad

Quote
It misses so many points that have been discussed many times.

That's why I clearly stated that the OP wasn't exhaustive or even comprehensive in its scope.  But I'm genuinely curious which points you're referring to and how they impact affect what I'm saying.

Quote
Because there is so much negativity now I don't want to be accused of being a bag holder. Oh well, I'm happy for you to feel like you won a game or something.

Oh give me a break. Thanks for just ignoring everything except the last line in the OP which I reluctantly posted to be transparent as possible.  The mere inclusion of that last line unquestionably removes bias from the OP.

Quote
You can make vague observations, but it's hardly speculation.

You think?!  Thanks, Captain Obvious.  Dude, Systems Theory isn't supposed to lead to speculation no matter what discipline it's applied to.  For example, systems theory as applied to psychology doesn't outline treatment or a course of action, but rather it helps you understand the psychology of a person or group in a context that can be consistently applied again and again.  All your reply shows is that you don't understand the theory or what it's intended for.  I even flatly stated that the OP is extremely general as it uses a theory which can be, and routinely is, applied to literally dozens of various disciplines.  In other words, I never even tried to speculate.

Quote
These systems you speak of sound like spirituality. That's fine too. Everything is connected and kumbaya right back at ya.

Now you're just going overboard.  The post is supposed to help people who are struggling to grasp the context of the situation due to intense emotions and/or a host of other factors.  The point is to set Bitcoin into a context that is internally and externally consistent throughout.  I'm not going to do your speculating for you or anyone else, but since I have significant experience with modeling these types of things, I thought this was another way I could contribute.
I held back on that post because I thought maybe you were just feeling sorry for someone and wanted to add a little advice. I just wanted to frame your post in the context that it isn't a win-lose game... mostly because I admit to being a firm believer in Bitcoin. Now I just need to clarify why I felt it was in remiss.

You made good points about history, but then you talked about systemic death and entropy. Misuse of the term entropy is a pet peeve of mine. It's worse than quantum. There's no need to argue about them here.

But I am completely at a loss why you felt you needed to post this in the first place. What was your presumption? Emotions aren't something people need to be talked through by posting, they are what people need to learn to deal with. If people are simply speculating without any understanding, then they deserve no advice at all, nor would they want any. Better advice would have been to go talk to someone IRL, not try to feel some sense of "internally and externally consistent context" that Bitcoin is somehow part of some machine and that sometimes machine parts fail. I don't see it that way at all. Forgive me for saying this but you had no moral authority to talk about Bitcoin failing as if you understood the emergent complexities of OPEN SOURCE systems. There are no books on this yet. They are being written as this technology and philosophy unfolds.

Besides, the post ended up being a rallying post for Bitcoin bashers that agreed with you without even understanding what you were talking about.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 1278
October 06, 2014, 01:21:18 PM
#61
Trolls get celebrity level attention, actually useful posts are ridiculed. Time for a break from this board.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
October 06, 2014, 12:20:26 PM
#60
This is a disheartening post.

Likewise Sad

Quote
It misses so many points that have been discussed many times.

That's why I clearly stated that the OP wasn't exhaustive or even comprehensive in its scope.  But I'm genuinely curious which points you're referring to and how they impact affect what I'm saying.

Quote
Because there is so much negativity now I don't want to be accused of being a bag holder. Oh well, I'm happy for you to feel like you won a game or something.

Oh give me a break. Thanks for just ignoring everything except the last line in the OP which I reluctantly posted to be transparent as possible.  The mere inclusion of that last line unquestionably removes bias from the OP.

Quote
You can make vague observations, but it's hardly speculation.

You think?!  Thanks, Captain Obvious.  Dude, Systems Theory isn't supposed to lead to speculation no matter what discipline it's applied to.  For example, systems theory as applied to psychology doesn't outline treatment or a course of action, but rather it helps you understand the psychology of a person or group in a context that can be consistently applied again and again.  All your reply shows is that you don't understand the theory or what it's intended for.  I even flatly stated that the OP is extremely general as it uses a theory which can be, and routinely is, applied to literally dozens of various disciplines.  In other words, I never even tried to speculate.

Quote
These systems you speak of sound like spirituality. That's fine too. Everything is connected and kumbaya right back at ya.

Now you're just going overboard.  The post is supposed to help people who are struggling to grasp the context of the situation due to intense emotions and/or a host of other factors.  The point is to set Bitcoin into a context that is internally and externally consistent throughout.  I'm not going to do your speculating for you or anyone else, but since I have significant experience with modeling these types of things, I thought this was another way I could contribute.
donator
Activity: 714
Merit: 510
Preaching the gospel of Satoshi
October 05, 2014, 02:47:00 PM
#59
......then there won't be a real competitor out there. None.

The other projects you mentioned are absolutely irrelevant. And the fact you mentioned them it is clear you don't really fully understand how it will be implemented...

You are still not empathizing with the average potential user. When they consider : Where to store their files, how to encrypt their communications, how to lease their unused bandwidth , how to lease their unused hard drive space, how and where to host their websites, which CDN to use, ect.... They have many solutions with advantages and disadvantages to pick from. This is competition for maidsafe.

An external hard drive is competition for cloud storage like Dropbox despite them being very different products with different features.

Maidsafe may become a raging success, but to think that it  doesn't have competition is just delusional. I'm apologize for being a bit rude, but am frankly quite shocked that you would even dare making such claims.


The overly ambitious aspect of it makes it extremely risky,

But you are encouraging users to invest in maidsafecoins as a fail safe if bitcoin fails? Do you normally suggest users backup a risky investment with an extremely risky one?

P.S...   I admit, I am very slightly biased against maidsafe because their botched IPO, that just like Nxt, will continue to haunt the project. Which is a shame because I followed and liked David's ideas beforehand.

The first thing you have to understand how practical it will be for the average user to just turn up their computer or even dumb terminal, logging in, and then using it. That's it.
It will be a transparent experience for the average and not so average Joe. There is practically no learning curve.

Do you know why dropbox was such a success?
For exactly the same reason.
MaidSafe will be even greater in its practicality, and besides that, you can generate money by using it. Do you need a bigger incentive than that?

All investments have risks, but this one is a no brainer.
High risk and high return is a given. But when the potential is to grow 10,000% or greater, you can invest just 1000 dollars and wait to see what happens.

The overly ambitious plan is a risk because it may never come out to light. But such risk is being minimized every time they demonstrate they are actually progressing toward their goal posts. The only reason I came out now supporting MaidSafe is because they finished TestNet1 and now they are progressing towards TestNet2.
It stopped being vaporware long time ago.

And again, none of the networks you mention is a direct competitor of MaidSafe. Have you even tried using Freenet? Or I2P? Do you really understand how it works and what is their scope and vision? Just because they use the words "decentralized" and "network", doesn't mean it is the same.

Also, you will have to be much more rational in your assessment, one thing is the technology, another thing is their IPO. If you can't separate both, you are the one at risk.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 501
October 05, 2014, 10:50:57 AM
#58
......then there won't be a real competitor out there. None.

The other projects you mentioned are absolutely irrelevant. And the fact you mentioned them it is clear you don't really fully understand how it will be implemented...

You are still not empathizing with the average potential user. When they consider : Where to store their files, how to encrypt their communications, how to lease their unused bandwidth , how to lease their unused hard drive space, how and where to host their websites, which CDN to use, ect.... They have many solutions with advantages and disadvantages to pick from. This is competition for maidsafe.

An external hard drive is competition for cloud storage like Dropbox despite them being very different products with different features.

Maidsafe may become a raging success, but to think that it  doesn't have competition is just delusional. I'm apologize for being a bit rude, but am frankly quite shocked that you would even dare making such claims.


The overly ambitious aspect of it makes it extremely risky,

But you are encouraging users to invest in maidsafecoins as a fail safe if bitcoin fails? Do you normally suggest users backup a risky investment with an extremely risky one?

P.S...   I admit, I am very slightly biased against maidsafe because their botched IPO, that just like Nxt, will continue to haunt the project. Which is a shame because I followed and liked David's ideas beforehand.
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1000
dafar consulting
October 05, 2014, 10:47:50 AM
#57
**Note: For the record, I released the majority of my holdings between $600-$850 but still have some stake in this market.


When did you get in?


Good post, glad I read it

I got into Bitcoin June 2011.

Thank you Smiley

Ah ok, it makes sense to sell and take your profits around $600-$850 if you got in at 2011.


I was just trying to see your perspective. If you got in after Nov 2013 and sold at a loss, then that would probably mean you're not confident in this system healing itself or having another phase where the input far exceeds the output. Which is what most of us holders are hoping for, but like you said it's a gamble.
donator
Activity: 714
Merit: 510
Preaching the gospel of Satoshi
October 05, 2014, 10:38:38 AM
#56
You keep mentioning storage.
You do realize that MaidSafe is not about storage at all. It is about a network, reinventing the internet as we know it.
Tell me one another one project that is serverless, secure, redundant, decentralized and yet blockchain-less. Again, blockchainless. Think a minute about the significance of that.

And, yes, centralized servers are not the same as a serverless system.
Did you really care to see what MaidSafe is really about?

This is turning into a pointless discussion. If you still don't understand why it really doesn't have a serious competition, especially in the cryptoworld.

Only IBM can somewhat threaten MaidSafe if they move forward with their proprietary systems (Adept project).
And yet even if they move forward with that, MaidSafe will remain non-profit and open source.
It is hard to compete against free... and farming resources for their users.

Yes, I understand the ambitious scope of David's project and even read many of the whitepapers.
Your perspective is from a brainwashed IPO investor regurgitating marketing and mine is someone with no vested stakes in either project.

I understand Maidsafe is trying to accomplish more and will offer more features and products, I'm not quibbling about the differences but the fact that
you have to also understand Maidsafe from a consumer point of reference and how it differentiates from dropbox/google drive/ect.. which is free for most users,
or how it differentiates from Storj , or how it differentiates from Freenet/Netsukuku/GNUnet/Cjdns/I2P/ect... open source protocols. These are all very old ideas , and
executing them with the right incentives is the tricky part. Maidsafe may be too ambitious and to closed to really take over the ecosystem, history will show.

Now we are talking about a different problem.
You were comparing it with Storj, which is a non issue.
So be careful pointing your finger to me as a brainwashed guy when I was only pointing out that your comparisons were ridiculously irrelevant.

I am aware of the risks, and that is another whole different issue, but competition is not one of them.
The overly ambitious aspect of it makes it extremely risky, and that's about it. Because if the execution of his vision is flawless, then there won't be a real competitor out there. None.

The other projects you mentioned are absolutely irrelevant. And the fact you mentioned them it is clear you don't really fully understand how it will be implemented...
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 501
October 05, 2014, 10:29:45 AM
#55
You keep mentioning storage.
You do realize that MaidSafe is not about storage at all. It is about a network, reinventing the internet as we know it.
Tell me one another one project that is serverless, secure, redundant, decentralized and yet blockchain-less. Again, blockchainless. Think a minute about the significance of that.

And, yes, centralized servers are not the same as a serverless system.
Did you really care to see what MaidSafe is really about?

This is turning into a pointless discussion. If you still don't understand why it really doesn't have a serious competition, especially in the cryptoworld.

Only IBM can somewhat threaten MaidSafe if they move forward with their proprietary systems (Adept project).
And yet even if they move forward with that, MaidSafe will remain non-profit and open source.
It is hard to compete against free... and farming resources for their users.

Yes, I understand the ambitious scope of David's project and even read many of the whitepapers.
Your perspective is from a brainwashed IPO investor regurgitating marketing and mine is someone with no vested stakes in either project.

I understand that Maidsafe is trying to accomplish more and will offer more features and products. I'm not quibbling about the differences, but just suggesting
you have to also understand Maidsafe from a consumer point of reference and how it differentiates from dropbox/google drive/ect.. which is free for most users,
or how it differentiates from Storj , or how it differentiates from Freenet/Netsukuku/GNUnet/Cjdns/I2P/ect... open source protocols. These are all very old ideas , and
executing them with the right incentives is the tricky part. Maidsafe may be too ambitious and to closed to really take over the ecosystem; history will show.

Ignoring your competition because you are blinded by your own investment is dangerous.
donator
Activity: 714
Merit: 510
Preaching the gospel of Satoshi
October 05, 2014, 09:46:04 AM
#54
If you are thinking they are providing the same products you clearly have no idea of their differences.

Ahh, I see..... and other cloud storage providers aren't competitors with either storj or maidsafe because they are centralized and not properly secure, right?

What a great way to focus on competition, just ignore any products that don't match every technical detail without understanding the potential end users needs.

Hopefully, the maidesafe team doesn't think the same way you do , because if so, the whole project is doomed.

You keep mentioning storage.
You do realize that MaidSafe is not about storage at all. It is about a network, reinventing the internet as we know it. The storage in MaidSafe is just an extra feature.
It is like comparing a hard drive vs. a whole freaking laptop with an internet connection. Is really the hard drive market threatening the laptop? Does that really sound competing to you?

Going back to MaidSafe, tell me one another one project that is serverless, secure, redundant, decentralized and yet blockchain-less. Again, blockchainless. Think a minute about the significance of that.
If you find such system, you found your competitor.

And, yes, centralized servers are not the same as a serverless system.
Did you really care to see what MaidSafe is really about?

This is turning into a pointless discussion. If you still don't understand why it really doesn't have a serious competition, especially in the cryptoworld.

Only IBM can somewhat threaten MaidSafe if they move forward with their proprietary systems (Adept project).
And yet even if they move forward with that, MaidSafe will remain non-profit and open, and their market target is different from IBM's.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 501
October 05, 2014, 09:34:42 AM
#53
If you are thinking they are providing the same products you clearly have no idea of their differences.

Ahh, I see..... and other cloud storage providers aren't competitors with either storj or maidsafe because they are centralized and not properly secure, right?

What a great way to focus on competition, just ignore any products that don't match every technical detail without understanding the potential end users needs.

Hopefully, the maidesafe team doesn't think the same way you do , because if so, the whole project is doomed.
donator
Activity: 714
Merit: 510
Preaching the gospel of Satoshi
October 05, 2014, 09:29:22 AM
#52
Not even close.
MaidSafe is a whole internet decentralized.
Storj could be just an app inside MaidSafe.
Also, MaidSafe solved the bizantine generals problem without the need of a blockchain.

I understand the distinctions, but not acknowledging competitors when they both provide the same product is just being naive or and act of pure hubris.

The most you could suggest is that Storj merely competes with maidsafe with one of its principle future products, instead of this false statement:

MaidSafe has NO competition.

If you are thinking they are providing the same products you clearly have no idea of their differences.
donator
Activity: 714
Merit: 510
Preaching the gospel of Satoshi
October 05, 2014, 09:28:35 AM
#51
I will make it simpler:
Just invest in MaidSafeCoins.
And hold your position in Bitcoins.
Thats it.

If bitcoins fails, all Cryptos are gonna fail.
MaidSafe is another story, a completely different animal.
Um, it is my understanding that MaidSafe is built on Mastercoin, which is in turn built on Bitcoin. It Bitcoin fails, so does MaidSafe.
Edit: Looked into it a little more:
Quote from: TechCrunch
In addition, MaidSafe has filed multiple patents — and will be looking at opportunities to license its technologies for use outside the Safe network. “We’ve got about ten granted patents, about 22 pending just now and more on the way. And some of these libraries and technologies that we’ve created can be used outside the network. So, for example, an existing Content Delivery Network… like Akamai they could use our routing and RUDP libraries to basically make their distributed servers run much more efficiently and much faster,” he says. “Anyone using our patents within the network is absolutely welcome to do so. The patents, just to point out, are purely defensive.”
- The Server Needs To Die To Save The Internet

Ugh, software patents. Not touching that one.


Omg is that the reach of your researching skills?
1st) MasterCoin has nothing to do with MaidSafe. Nothing.
This demonstrates that you don't even understand what mastercoin is.
Mastercoin was used for the crowdfunding, and it holds tokens until the Safe network goes live.
Then MaidSafeCoins will be converted into SafeCoins in its own network.

2nd) They are designing new network protocols to make this work. Patents have a bad name because of patent trolls. But it is a necessary step to protect legitimate intellectual property, and yet to be open about its functionality.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 501
October 05, 2014, 09:20:59 AM
#50
Not even close.
MaidSafe is a whole internet decentralized.
Storj could be just an app inside MaidSafe.
Also, MaidSafe solved the bizantine generals problem without the need of a blockchain.

I understand the distinctions, but not acknowledging competitors when they both provide the same product is just being naive or and act of pure hubris.

The most you could suggest is that Storj merely competes with maidsafe with one of its principle future products, instead of this false statement:

MaidSafe has NO competition.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
October 05, 2014, 09:11:25 AM
#49
twiifm, when exactly did you convince your old man to not buy some bitcoins?

Around 1000.  I also advised my friend against 650 or whatever the price when SR auction.

People usually ask me around super bullish times
donator
Activity: 714
Merit: 510
Preaching the gospel of Satoshi
October 05, 2014, 09:09:56 AM
#48
MaidSafe has NO competition.
Research about it, and then come back.

Storj isn't competition?

http://storj.io/
http://coinmarketcap.com/assets/storjcoin-x/


Not even close.
MaidSafe is a whole internet decentralized. It destroys the client-server model.
Storj it is only about storage, blockchain based, eventually it could end up being an app inside MaidSafe.
Also, MaidSafe solved the bizantine generals problem without the need of a blockchain.

So MaidSafe is not leveraging on bitcoin, it is on its own category by itself.
Also, MaidSafe have been in the works since before bitcoins.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 1278
October 05, 2014, 08:34:31 AM
#47
twiifm, when exactly did you convince your old man to not buy some bitcoins?
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 501
October 05, 2014, 07:22:17 AM
#46
MaidSafe has NO competition.
Research about it, and then come back.

Storj isn't competition?

http://storj.io/
http://coinmarketcap.com/assets/storjcoin-x/
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
October 05, 2014, 06:11:27 AM
#45
This is a disheartening post. It misses so many points that have been discussed many times. Because there is so much negativity now I don't want to be accused of being a bag holder. Oh well, I'm happy for you to feel like you won a game or something. You can make vague observations, but it's hardly speculation. These systems you speak of sound like spirituality. That's fine too. Everything is connected and kumbaya right back at ya.

I will make it simpler:
Just invest in MaidSafeCoins.
And hold your position in Bitcoins.
Thats it.

If bitcoins fails, all Cryptos are gonna fail.
MaidSafe is another story, a completely different animal.
I'm not putting that company down, but they are just a business. If it shows any promise it will either be bought or copied. If it's bought its model may be changed. If it is copied and marketed by a big brand, then your investment will be lost. Bitcoin has thousands of failed competitors. Can Maidsafe resist such competition? That's a rhetorical question.

MaidSafe has NO competition.
Research about it, and then come back.

If it is fully open source then it will be cloned just like Bitcoin. If it's not open source, then it's probably an NSA project.
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1001
Let the chips fall where they may.
October 05, 2014, 06:07:33 AM
#44
I will make it simpler:
Just invest in MaidSafeCoins.
And hold your position in Bitcoins.
Thats it.

If bitcoins fails, all Cryptos are gonna fail.
MaidSafe is another story, a completely different animal.
Um, it is my understanding that MaidSafe is built on Mastercoin, which is in turn built on Bitcoin. It Bitcoin fails, so does MaidSafe.
Edit: Looked into it a little more:
Quote from: TechCrunch
In addition, MaidSafe has filed multiple patents — and will be looking at opportunities to license its technologies for use outside the Safe network. “We’ve got about ten granted patents, about 22 pending just now and more on the way. And some of these libraries and technologies that we’ve created can be used outside the network. So, for example, an existing Content Delivery Network… like Akamai they could use our routing and RUDP libraries to basically make their distributed servers run much more efficiently and much faster,” he says. “Anyone using our patents within the network is absolutely welcome to do so. The patents, just to point out, are purely defensive.”
- The Server Needs To Die To Save The Internet

Ugh, software patents. Not touching that one.
legendary
Activity: 1762
Merit: 1011
October 05, 2014, 05:51:54 AM
#43
Hoarding is like stuffing cash in a mattress.  It does nothing.  Theres no value creation.  

False. Given that there can only ever be 21 million bitcoins, hoarding them can create scarcity, which is not nothing.

Quote
Thats why experienced investors don't hoard bitcoin.  They either invest in ventures or stay away totally.

Why do experienced investors hoard commodities then?


Quote
But i think homeostasis will only be discovered once there is another real economy like silk road that comes along

There are already these out there. They have been there since Silk Road went down.
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1020
October 05, 2014, 03:40:20 AM
#42
the joint .... great OP.  You sound like a biochemist.

A posting like that doesn't get written by accident.  It is written by someone who is very intelligent, is educated, and knows lots about bitcoin too.

You deserve whatever USD equivalent you locked in earlier.  We are lucky you are still engaged with the bitcoin community, as you probably have lots of other interesting pursuits to fill your time with.

To any 'doubters' out there... consider why someone like the OP is still engaged with bitcoin.  I'll guess they like and support the politics of the system, and the associated financial freedom.  Bitcoin is revolutionary technology... in addition to being a technological revelation.

Later, I may comment in more technical on some of your points.  But first I wanted to comment on the meta level.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
October 05, 2014, 03:06:45 AM
#41
**Note: For the record, I released the majority of my holdings between $600-$850 but still have some stake in this market.

this is the real message, the rest is blah blah blah

I interpreted this in two ways, either that this is the sole reason I made the OP or that somehow some small knowledge about my trading history is of more value than the rest of the post.  I'm guessing it's the first one, and it's called dutiful disclosure.
member
Activity: 94
Merit: 10
★Bitin.io★ - Instant Exchange
October 05, 2014, 02:14:27 AM
#40
Buy high, sell low. Repeat until homeless.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
October 05, 2014, 02:13:27 AM
#39
**Note: For the record, I released the majority of my holdings between $600-$850 but still have some stake in this market.


When did you get in?


Good post, glad I read it

I got into Bitcoin June 2011.

Thank you Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1010
Borsche
October 05, 2014, 01:45:35 AM
#38
Nice post.i have some idea but at the moment things are hurting looking losses and severe problem.not sure if to sell or to hold.

of course sell, always sell low buy back high, that is the recipe for success. or was it the other way around? can't ever remember.
hero member
Activity: 583
Merit: 500
October 05, 2014, 01:40:07 AM
#37
Nice post.i have some idea but at the moment things are hurting looking losses and severe problem.not sure if to sell or to hold.
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1010
Borsche
October 05, 2014, 01:26:23 AM
#36

Say what???  That made no sense and my head is hurting for trying to comprehend.

You are reinforcing my point.  Bitcoiners dont understand finance or economics.  

Or maybe you are reinforcing my point that people of average intellectual ability can not grasp bitcoin - yet. Don't worry, we'll make it easy for you later on. For now, you don't have to hurt your brain thinking, it is not for you yet.
legendary
Activity: 889
Merit: 1013
October 05, 2014, 01:17:05 AM
#35
That is an interesting proposal but it doesn't explain why a currency called Bitcoin should exist and why it should have any price.  A worthless token can achieve the same utility since its all outside money anyways
I agree that an arbitrary number of units in a blockchain system have no inherent value, but neither does fiat money. Bitcoin is the first blockchain currency experiment and will only have a value based upon the size of the network, and the "store of value" interest it attracts. The number of units and the future rate of their creation is known, as is the current value of the particular block chain. This gives a meaningful current value to the price of a bitcoin. What will the future fair value of the currency be? That is harder to determine, but it's a better bet than the people of the Weimar Republic had. I am personally motivated by the incredibly irresponsible monetary policy of most major economies at the moment, all previous experiments with excessive money printing have ended badly, and I have no reason to assume things will be different this time.

But do yourself a favor and do some due diligence on your investments.  
Have done, that's why I made over 2000% on my initial bitcoin investment. I have also lost a lot of paper worth as a result of this downtrend, but I'm OK with that because owning bitcoin was always a long term project for me, voting with my wallet for an open source transparent global economy, rather that the unstable corrupt oligarchy we currently have. I made the investment because I took the trouble to learn about the global banking system after the 2008 crisis and came to the conclusion cryptos were going to replace government fiat currencies eventually. Bitcoin is an early experiment in this regard, but a better option than faith based government currencies in my opinion.

I just hate bitcoin because someone tried to get my retired father to invest in bitcoin.  He was about to throw $50K at it til I stopped him.  
If your father was going to invest money he couldn't afford to lose then you did the right thing, speculating on the price of bitcoin is high risk/volatility and people need to understand that. I agree there have been a lot of irresponsible pumpers on this forum, just like there are a lot of greedy trolls now, but if you have $50k to invest then no responsible adult should make investment decisions based upon what some faceless person on a forum is saying.
donator
Activity: 714
Merit: 510
Preaching the gospel of Satoshi
October 05, 2014, 01:06:55 AM
#34
I will make it simpler:
Just invest in MaidSafeCoins.
And hold your position in Bitcoins.
Thats it.

If bitcoins fails, all Cryptos are gonna fail.
MaidSafe is another story, a completely different animal.
I'm not putting that company down, but they are just a business. If it shows any promise it will either be bought or copied. If it's bought its model may be changed. If it is copied and marketed by a big brand, then your investment will be lost. Bitcoin has thousands of failed competitors. Can Maidsafe resist such competition? That's a rhetorical question.

MaidSafe has NO competition.
Research about it, and then come back.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
October 05, 2014, 01:04:20 AM
#33

Bitcoin price is purely speculative.  There are no fundamentals.  The only time we got near a bitcoin economy was silk road.  That is when goods are priced in bitcoin.  When goods are priced in bitcoin then you can estimate price by comparing the same basket of goods relative to other currencies.

No, SR never had their prices in bitcoin, as any other business selling goods purchased or produced with fiat never did. There's no such things as "bitcoin economy", if anything it's 10 years down the road *at least*. Everybody with a tiny bit of clue understands that, this is a protocol building stage, not world domination stage.

Then there is no price discovery because money ultimately has to be used for exchange.  Without an economy its 1 btc = 1 btc

I never used SR cause I dont buy drugs.  But looks to me like this ecstasy was priced in bitcoins




No, it wasn't. It was dollar pricetags translated to btc in real-time. You can't really have btc pricetags on anything but digital goods which have zero cost to start with.

So you are agreeing w me thats its a useless currency

it is a convenient digital value transfer tool and amazing technology that will change the way we do finance in the future. it is an ok currency for digital goods. selling TVs for bitcoin is an artificial thing, it's like introducing youtube in 1990 - fun but not practical.

Say what???  That made no sense and my head is hurting for trying to comprehend.

You are reinforcing my point.  Bitcoiners dont understand finance or economics.  
legendary
Activity: 4004
Merit: 4656
October 05, 2014, 12:59:28 AM
#32
**Note: For the record, I released the majority of my holdings between $600-$850 but still have some stake in this market.

this is the real message, the rest is blah blah blah
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1010
Borsche
October 05, 2014, 12:45:29 AM
#31

Bitcoin price is purely speculative.  There are no fundamentals.  The only time we got near a bitcoin economy was silk road.  That is when goods are priced in bitcoin.  When goods are priced in bitcoin then you can estimate price by comparing the same basket of goods relative to other currencies.

No, SR never had their prices in bitcoin, as any other business selling goods purchased or produced with fiat never did. There's no such things as "bitcoin economy", if anything it's 10 years down the road *at least*. Everybody with a tiny bit of clue understands that, this is a protocol building stage, not world domination stage.

Then there is no price discovery because money ultimately has to be used for exchange.  Without an economy its 1 btc = 1 btc

I never used SR cause I dont buy drugs.  But looks to me like this ecstasy was priced in bitcoins




No, it wasn't. It was dollar pricetags translated to btc in real-time. You can't really have btc pricetags on anything but digital goods which have zero cost to start with.

So you are agreeing w me thats its a useless currency

it is a convenient digital value transfer tool and amazing technology that will change the way we do finance in the future. it is an ok currency for digital goods. selling TVs for bitcoin is an artificial thing, it's like introducing youtube in 1990 - fun but not practical.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
October 05, 2014, 12:37:46 AM
#30

Bitcoin price is purely speculative.  There are no fundamentals.  The only time we got near a bitcoin economy was silk road.  That is when goods are priced in bitcoin.  When goods are priced in bitcoin then you can estimate price by comparing the same basket of goods relative to other currencies.

No, SR never had their prices in bitcoin, as any other business selling goods purchased or produced with fiat never did. There's no such things as "bitcoin economy", if anything it's 10 years down the road *at least*. Everybody with a tiny bit of clue understands that, this is a protocol building stage, not world domination stage.

Then there is no price discovery because money ultimately has to be used for exchange.  Without an economy its 1 btc = 1 btc

I never used SR cause I dont buy drugs.  But looks to me like this ecstasy was priced in bitcoins




No, it wasn't. It was dollar pricetags translated to btc in real-time. You can't really have btc pricetags on anything but digital goods which have zero cost to start with.

So you are agreeing w me thats its a useless currency
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1010
Borsche
October 05, 2014, 12:33:37 AM
#29

Bitcoin price is purely speculative.  There are no fundamentals.  The only time we got near a bitcoin economy was silk road.  That is when goods are priced in bitcoin.  When goods are priced in bitcoin then you can estimate price by comparing the same basket of goods relative to other currencies.

No, SR never had their prices in bitcoin, as any other business selling goods purchased or produced with fiat never did. There's no such things as "bitcoin economy", if anything it's 10 years down the road *at least*. Everybody with a tiny bit of clue understands that, this is a protocol building stage, not world domination stage.

Then there is no price discovery because money ultimately has to be used for exchange.  Without an economy its 1 btc = 1 btc

I never used SR cause I dont buy drugs.  But looks to me like this ecstasy was priced in bitcoins




No, it wasn't. It was dollar pricetags translated to btc in real-time. You can't really have btc pricetags on anything but digital goods which have zero cost to start with.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
October 05, 2014, 12:31:53 AM
#28

Bitcoin price is purely speculative.  There are no fundamentals.  The only time we got near a bitcoin economy was silk road.  That is when goods are priced in bitcoin.  When goods are priced in bitcoin then you can estimate price by comparing the same basket of goods relative to other currencies.

No, SR never had their prices in bitcoin, as any other business selling goods purchased or produced with fiat never did. There's no such things as "bitcoin economy", if anything it's 10 years down the road *at least*. Everybody with a tiny bit of clue understands that, this is a protocol building stage, not world domination stage.

Then there is no price discovery because money ultimately has to be used for exchange.  Without an economy its 1 btc = 1 btc

I never used SR cause I dont buy drugs.  But looks to me like this ecstasy was priced in bitcoins

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/technology/files/2013/05/Silk-Road-009.jpg
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
October 05, 2014, 12:28:47 AM
#27
I will make it simpler:
Just invest in MaidSafeCoins.
And hold your position in Bitcoins.
Thats it.

If bitcoins fails, all Cryptos are gonna fail.
MaidSafe is another story, a completely different animal.
I'm not putting that company down, but they are just a business. If it shows any promise it will either be bought or copied. If it's bought its model may be changed. If it is copied and marketed by a big brand, then your investment will be lost. Bitcoin has thousands of failed competitors. Can Maidsafe resist such competition? That's a rhetorical question.
donator
Activity: 714
Merit: 510
Preaching the gospel of Satoshi
October 05, 2014, 12:26:24 AM
#26
Your father could have been a millionaire if he just invested 10% of it in 2010

Hindsight is 20/20.  The price never had anything to do w the investment thesis.

Its all speculation.  Only early adopters can make money by pumping and dumping to newbs

Dont fall for it.  

But do what you want, I dont care.  Im only here to help people understand economics and finance

I had the foresight about bitcoins in 2010.
And I am having it for MaidSafe now.
Cheers.
member
Activity: 99
Merit: 10
October 05, 2014, 12:21:25 AM
#25
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1010
Borsche
October 05, 2014, 12:20:25 AM
#24

Bitcoin price is purely speculative.  There are no fundamentals.  The only time we got near a bitcoin economy was silk road.  That is when goods are priced in bitcoin.  When goods are priced in bitcoin then you can estimate price by comparing the same basket of goods relative to other currencies.

No, SR never had their prices in bitcoin, as any other business selling goods purchased or produced with fiat never did. There's no such things as "bitcoin economy", if anything it's 10 years down the road *at least*. Everybody with a tiny bit of clue understands that, this is a protocol building stage, not world domination stage.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
October 05, 2014, 12:20:00 AM
#23
Your father could have been a millionaire if he just invested 10% of it in 2010

Hindsight is 20/20.  The price never had anything to do w the investment thesis.

Its all speculation.  Only early adopters can make money by pumping and dumping to newbs

Dont fall for it.  

But do what you want, I dont care.  Im only here to help people understand economics and finance
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
October 05, 2014, 12:14:58 AM
#22
Your father could have been a millionaire if he just invested 10% of it in 2010

He can be one right now. Just if he had a time machine.
donator
Activity: 714
Merit: 510
Preaching the gospel of Satoshi
October 05, 2014, 12:13:18 AM
#21
Your father could have been a millionaire if he just invested 10% of it in 2010
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
October 05, 2014, 12:08:44 AM
#20
Bitcoin does not replace USD
Who trusts the US Dollar anymore? I'm talking about fiat money in general. Trustless also means trustless as a store of value. You don't need to trust an insolvent bank to store your money digitally, you can do it yourself. This appeals to me. It may not appeal to you, fine, you don't have to own any bitcoins.


Trustless means you dont need clearing.  Thats the whole point of crypto.  Clearing is why it takes days to move money from one place to another.  All banks use a ledger and double entry accounting.  What blockchain proposes is that theres one universal ledger.  That is an interesting proposal but it doesn't explain why a currency called Bitcoin should exist and why it should have any price.  A worthless token can achieve the same utility since its all outside money anyways

Doesnt matter what you like or prefer.  The US economy uses USD.  Japans economy uses YEN, etc..  You have to use the currency inside that economy because theres no choice.  And Im not talking about freedom or ridiculous notion of politics.  Its like if you want to write English you use roman letters.  But you can write the same word in Katakana if you want Japanese person to read.  Its a systemic issue

Like I said.  You just dont understand banking or economics.  Currency vs asset vs transmission tech

I don't care what you do w your money.  But do yourself a favor and do some due diligence on your investments.  

Get your info from non biased sources and not bulltards or beartards

Disclosure.  Ive never had any bitcoin position long or short.  I just hate bitcoin because someone tried to get my retired father to invest in bitcoin.  He was about to throw $50K at it til I stopped him.  I keep seeing idiots like Andreas A, Stefan Molyneux and bitcoin pumpers talk crap that are wrong wrong wrong.  Their understanding of banking, finance and econ is like high school level




legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1000
dafar consulting
October 05, 2014, 12:08:37 AM
#19
**Note: For the record, I released the majority of my holdings between $600-$850 but still have some stake in this market.


When did you get in?


Good post, glad I read it
donator
Activity: 714
Merit: 510
Preaching the gospel of Satoshi
October 04, 2014, 11:45:33 PM
#18
I will make it simpler:
Just invest in MaidSafeCoins.
And hold your position in Bitcoins.
Thats it.

If bitcoins fails, all Cryptos are gonna fail.
MaidSafe is another story, a completely different animal.
legendary
Activity: 889
Merit: 1013
October 04, 2014, 11:32:35 PM
#17
Bitcoin does not replace USD
Who trusts the US Dollar anymore? I'm talking about fiat money in general. Trustless also means trustless as a store of value. You don't need to trust an insolvent bank to store your money digitally, you can do it yourself. This appeals to me. It may not appeal to you, fine, you don't have to own any bitcoins.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
October 04, 2014, 10:41:50 PM
#16
Anyways, private money has always existed.  Bitcoin is just another form of "outside money" like Chuckee Cheese tokens, airline miles, casino chips, WoW gold, etc..
All these require trust in the issuer to limit the supply to maintain the value, and as the single holder of the ledger. Both of these require trust, which is often broken. Bitcoin is the first trustless, open source, public ledger system. It is not the same as things which have happened before.

Its still outside money.  Trust has nothing to do utility aspect of money.  Stability is most important factor.  

The trustless aspect of bitcoin only matters in the transmission part.  So blockchain replaces ACH and checks.  Bitcoin does not replace USD
legendary
Activity: 889
Merit: 1013
October 04, 2014, 10:14:57 PM
#15
Anyways, private money has always existed.  Bitcoin is just another form of "outside money" like Chuckee Cheese tokens, airline miles, casino chips, WoW gold, etc..
All these require trust in the issuer to limit the supply to maintain the value, and as the single holder of the ledger. Both of these require trust, which is often broken. Bitcoin is the first trustless, open source, public ledger system. It is not the same as things which have happened before.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
October 04, 2014, 10:03:29 PM
#14
Distributed ledger is not a financial innovation.  Its a technical innovation.
It's a technical innovation which will have an effect on the economy and change the nature of financial exchanges. That sounds a lot like a financial innovation to me?
Just because everyone uses email doesnt mean email has a price.  
If there could only ever be 21 million email address there would be a price, and a high one
Why do you think VCs invest in ventures like Coinbase instead of just buying bitcoins
Second Market, GABI, Winklevoss: they are buying bitcoins. Not that too much speculation at this stage is good for the project, but it is happening.

Is high frequency trading a financial innovation? No its not.  It changed trading in the world of finance.  HFT is a technological innovation within the world of finance but its not a financial product.

Anyways, private money has always existed.  Bitcoin is just another form of "outside money" like Chuckee Cheese tokens, airline miles, casino chips, WoW gold, etc..

But it was "inside money" inside of Silk Road. 
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
October 04, 2014, 09:52:58 PM
#13
There is not a $5 billion bitcoin economy.  You dont use market cap to measure economic output.
The $5 billion total value of all bitcoins represents the current perceived value of those bitcoins by the people who choose to hold them. Granted it doesn't represent the network or transmission value of the bitcoins in circulation, that's because part of the value is speculative or as a store of value. However, it does represent the net worth of the bitcoin economy.


Thats not an economy.  The market cap of Apple is just the current share price times number of shares.

Doesnt mean Apple is an economy.

Silk Road was a little economy.  The goods were priced in bitcoin.  You can take a basket of goods from Silk Road priced in bitcoin and compare the same basket priced in usd and get your price discovery.

Every bitcoiner keep confusing asset vs currency vs technology (utility)
legendary
Activity: 889
Merit: 1013
October 04, 2014, 09:49:55 PM
#12
Distributed ledger is not a financial innovation.  Its a technical innovation.
It's a technical innovation which will have an effect on the economy and change the nature of financial exchanges. That sounds a lot like a financial innovation to me?
Just because everyone uses email doesnt mean email has a price.  
If there could only ever be 21 million email address there would be a price, and a high one
Why do you think VCs invest in ventures like Coinbase instead of just buying bitcoins
Second Market, GABI, Winklevoss: they are buying bitcoins. Not that too much speculation at this stage is good for the project, but it is happening.
legendary
Activity: 889
Merit: 1013
October 04, 2014, 09:44:35 PM
#11
There is not a $5 billion bitcoin economy.  You dont use market cap to measure economic output.
The $5 billion total value of all bitcoins represents the current perceived value of those bitcoins by the people who choose to hold them. Granted it doesn't represent the network or transmission value of the bitcoins in circulation, that's because part of the value is speculative or as a store of value. However, it does represent the net worth of the bitcoin economy.
sr. member
Activity: 289
Merit: 252
bagholder since 2013
October 04, 2014, 09:44:00 PM
#10
Financial innovation comes from advances in financial products like CDS, MBS, CDO, etc.
All these products have counterparty risk. Counterparty risk in an insolvent system is what nearly brought down global credit markets in 2008. Bitcoin has no counterparty risk, and in my opinion is superior to the current global financial system. Granted bitcoin will struggle to get mainstream adoption until there are long term future contracts so people can use it as a more traditional currency with a more stable value, but these innovations are on the way.

You're missing the point.  Distributed ledger is not a financial innovation.  Its a technical innovation.

Just because everyone uses email doesnt mean email has a price.  A company that supports email service like Google has a priced stock though.  Why do you think VCs invest in ventures like Coinbase instead of just buying bitcoins



Tim Draper has taken a substantial position in BTC.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
October 04, 2014, 09:40:20 PM
#9
Financial innovation comes from advances in financial products like CDS, MBS, CDO, etc.
All these products have counterparty risk. Counterparty risk in an insolvent system is what nearly brought down global credit markets in 2008. Bitcoin has no counterparty risk, and in my opinion is superior to the current global financial system. Granted bitcoin will struggle to get mainstream adoption until there are long term future contracts so people can use it as a more traditional currency with a more stable value, but these innovations are on the way.

You're missing the point.  Distributed ledger is not a financial innovation.  Its a technical innovation.

Just because everyone uses email doesnt mean email has a price.  A company that supports email service like Google has a priced stock though.  Why do you think VCs invest in ventures like Coinbase instead of just buying bitcoins

legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
October 04, 2014, 09:37:37 PM
#8
Your B3 statement is most interesting to me. Yes more players decreases the odds of a systems collapse however a rather large, at this point, group of speculators does not constitute real global demand for Bitcoin. In other words...I feel Bitcoin is in a battle for its life as a generally accepted global currency.  

I agree.  Despite exponential growth over the past few years, Bitcoin is still at the complete mercy of substantially larger markets and market players.   Although, I would argue that it's hands-down remarkable the resiliency it's demonstrated while competing on a global playing field.  It didn't have the luxury of growing in some economic Petri dish until maturation.  It's amazing that something so small has persevered and made it this far when it's subject to the influence of virtually everyone in the industrialized world.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
October 04, 2014, 09:32:45 PM
#7
I like your post and would like to add some other points.

Bitcoin price is purely speculative.  There are no fundamentals.  The only time we got near a bitcoin economy was silk road.  That is when goods are priced in bitcoin.  When goods are priced in bitcoin then you can estimate price by comparing the same basket of goods relative to other currencies.

Having a limited base supply means nothing.  You want to pay attention to velocity.  Whether 1 btc equals 300usd or 10usd it doesnt matter as long as velocity can keep up w transactions

Inelasticity actually inhibits economic growth.  Most if not practically all capital money exist as credit.  People borrow money to create business that generate future returns to pay off interest.  Inelasticity makes it difficult to build financial services.  Terrible for creating loans

Hoarding is like stuffing cash in a mattress.  It does nothing.  Theres no value creation.  

Thats why experienced investors don't hoard bitcoin.  They either invest in ventures or stay away totally.

The entire bitcoin investment thesis is based on false and ignorant understanding of economics

If you buy bitcoins you are just speculating.  Theres a real chance it goes to zero.  Personally i dont think itll go to zero cause theres a bunch of cultists who will keep HODLing.  But i think homeostasis will only be discovered once there is another real economy like silk road that comes along

Until then buying bitcoins are a gamble.  If you wanna use bitcoin then exchange your fiat money right before and spend the bitcoin.
The price determines how much the economy can support. No amount of velocity is going to let you keep 10 billion in a 5 billion market cap economy.

Loans allow profitable businesses to take off. It also allows unprofitable ones to get started. If loans were not available less successful businesses would start up, but so would less failed ones. It would bring some measure of stability to the economy, and would force people to be very sure they knew what they were doing. Net result likely to be positive.

Supply is super important. I do not have the patience to baby you through this one at the moment.

Saving money is generally something that people who can't or won't do it complain about.

Everything involving money, or indeed resources of any kind, falls under speculation. Be more specific.

cul... ok i see. That kind of post. Alright.

There is not a $5 billion bitcoin economy.  You dont use market cap to measure economic output.

legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 1278
October 04, 2014, 09:27:47 PM
#6
I like your post and would like to add some other points.

Bitcoin price is purely speculative.  There are no fundamentals.  The only time we got near a bitcoin economy was silk road.  That is when goods are priced in bitcoin.  When goods are priced in bitcoin then you can estimate price by comparing the same basket of goods relative to other currencies.

Having a limited base supply means nothing.  You want to pay attention to velocity.  Whether 1 btc equals 300usd or 10usd it doesnt matter as long as velocity can keep up w transactions

Inelasticity actually inhibits economic growth.  Most if not practically all capital money exist as credit.  People borrow money to create business that generate future returns to pay off interest.  Inelasticity makes it difficult to build financial services.  Terrible for creating loans

Hoarding is like stuffing cash in a mattress.  It does nothing.  Theres no value creation.  

Thats why experienced investors don't hoard bitcoin.  They either invest in ventures or stay away totally.

The entire bitcoin investment thesis is based on false and ignorant understanding of economics

If you buy bitcoins you are just speculating.  Theres a real chance it goes to zero.  Personally i dont think itll go to zero cause theres a bunch of cultists who will keep HODLing.  But i think homeostasis will only be discovered once there is another real economy like silk road that comes along

Until then buying bitcoins are a gamble.  If you wanna use bitcoin then exchange your fiat money right before and spend the bitcoin.
The price determines how much the economy can support. No amount of velocity is going to let you keep 10 billion in a 5 billion market cap economy.

Loans allow profitable businesses to take off. It also allows unprofitable ones to get started. If loans were not available less successful businesses would start up, but so would less failed ones. It would bring some measure of stability to the economy, and would force people to be very sure they knew what they were doing. Net result likely to be positive.

Supply is super important. I do not have the patience to baby you through this one at the moment.

Saving money is generally something that people who can't or won't do complain about.

Everything involving money, or indeed resources of any kind, falls under speculation. Be more specific.

cul... ok i see. That kind of post. Alright.
legendary
Activity: 889
Merit: 1013
October 04, 2014, 09:25:00 PM
#5
Financial innovation comes from advances in financial products like CDS, MBS, CDO, etc.
All these products have counterparty risk. Counterparty risk in an insolvent system is what nearly brought down global credit markets in 2008. Bitcoin has no counterparty risk, and in my opinion is superior to the current global financial system. Granted bitcoin will struggle to get mainstream adoption until there are long term future contracts so people can use it as a more traditional currency with a more stable value, but these innovations are on the way.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
October 04, 2014, 09:15:50 PM
#4
Bitcoin is still in its early stages. People are losing money at the moment, just like they did in 2011. This doesn't change the fact that the current market cap of $5 billion is tiny compared to what its potential is. It is technologically so much more advanced that the countless trillions in financial products which currently hold the world economy together.

The experiment may also fail, this has always been true, so don't stake your life on it.  But I am completely happy holding through this down trend.

This is the kind of economics & finance ignorance I'm talking about.  Market cap just means price times shares.  If dealing w money economics you don't use market cap as a measurement.  You use GDP or some other similar measure

Financial innovation comes from advances in financial products like CDS, MBS, CDO, etc..

Blockchain is a ledger.  Its a tool like checks/ ACH are a tool to transmit money.  Checks themselves arent commodities and unit of currency dont have to be of any particular price for checks to work.



legendary
Activity: 889
Merit: 1013
October 04, 2014, 08:59:56 PM
#3
Bitcoin is still in its early stages. People are losing money at the moment, just like they did in 2011. This doesn't change the fact that the current market cap of $5 billion is tiny compared to what its potential is. It is technologically so much more advanced that the countless trillions in financial products which currently hold the world economy together.

The experiment may also fail, this has always been true, so don't stake your life on it.  But I am completely happy holding through this down trend.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
October 04, 2014, 08:51:31 PM
#2
I like your post and would like to add some other points.

Bitcoin price is purely speculative.  There are no fundamentals.  The only time we got near a bitcoin economy was silk road.  That is when goods are priced in bitcoin.  When goods are priced in bitcoin then you can estimate price by comparing the same basket of goods relative to other currencies.

Having a limited base supply means nothing.  You want to pay attention to velocity.  Whether 1 btc equals 300usd or 10usd it doesnt matter as long as velocity can keep up w transactions

Inelasticity actually inhibits economic growth.  Most if not practically all capital money exist as credit.  People borrow money to create business that generate future returns to pay off interest.  Inelasticity makes it difficult to build financial services.  Terrible for creating loans

Hoarding is like stuffing cash in a mattress.  It does nothing.  Theres no value creation.  

Thats why experienced investors don't hoard bitcoin.  They either invest in ventures or stay away totally.

The entire bitcoin investment thesis is based on false and ignorant understanding of economics

If you buy bitcoins you are just speculating.  Theres a real chance it goes to zero.  Personally i dont think itll go to zero cause theres a bunch of cultists who will keep HODLing.  But i think homeostasis will only be discovered once there is another real economy like silk road that comes along

Until then buying bitcoins are a gamble.  If you wanna use bitcoin then exchange your fiat money right before and spend the bitcoin.








legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
October 04, 2014, 08:07:51 PM
#1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeostasis

When things start getting messy and emotions run high, I often find it's useful to remind myself of the basics.  Accordingly, this is a post aimed at those who, over the past few weeks, have become increasingly emotional and panicky about BTC price.

What should you do?  Should you sell?  Should you buy?  Should you HODL?  Should you diversify?  Ultimately, these are unknowns, and the more you focus on the unknown, the less you focus on what is knowable.

So, what is knowable?  Systems Theory is an *extremely* broad, overarching theory of systems in general.  Depending on what discipline Systems Theory is applied to, it will look slightly different and certain systemic aspects will be highlighted over others.  But, the core ideas behind Systems Theory are applicable to virtually everything.  Absolutely everything and anything is a system -- I'm a system, you're a system, and this community is a system.  Most relevant to this post is that the Bitcoin market is a small, economic system nested within much larger economic systems.

Why is this basic knowledge useful?  All systems have some basic properties that, at the very least, can help us to understand the context in which the Bitcoin market exists in relation to other economic markets.

Let's first address some characteristics of all systems:

1) Entropy -- All systems are prone to entropy or decay over time, and will continue to do so without outside influence.

2) Homeostasis -- Homeostasis is a state of balance within a system, and is often achieved when systemic input is delicately balanced by systemic output.   A system in a state of total or near-total homeostasis can be described as stable.  A system not in a state of homeostasis can be described as volatile.

3) Input -- energy flowing into a system from external systems.

4) Output -- energy flowing out of a system into other, external systems.

Example:
Imagine a human being.  From the moment you are born, you are subject to entropy.  You will decay and die without some additional source of energy in the form of received input from some external system (e.g. food, oxygen, etc).  But, simply receiving this input will not guarantee your continued existence.   This systemic input needs to be counterbalanced by systemic output (e.g. excretion, etc.).  The absence of one or the other will lead to a quick death, and extreme imbalances between systemic input and output will cause systemic volatility that can threaten systemic collapse.

Applying Systems Theory to Bitcoin:
This post isn't intended to give you a formula for determining the cause of every tiny movement, but rather to provide some general considerations so that you can place the current state of Bitcoin in a more reasonable context.  Accordingly, here are a few of those considerations, though this is by no means an exhaustive or even comprehensive list:

1) Bitcoin is still a tiny economic system nested among larger ones.  This implies that smaller amounts of systemic input/output will have a larger impact on Bitcoin than they would on some larger economic system.  This is obvious -- simply imagine how, for example, the influx of $1 billion in new money might affect the Bitcoin market vs. how it might affect Google stock.

2) Bitcoin has experienced several phases of enormous systemic input that was not counterbalanced by systemic output.  The rise to the $32 in June 2011 was the first example, the rise to $266 was a second example, and the rise to >$1000 was the third.   These are all examples of periods in which systemic input was grossly mismatched with systemic output.  The inevitable result of these scenarios is systemic imbalance or a lack of homeostasis, thereby increasing the chances of systemic collapse.

3) Bitcoin is not self-correcting.  It is inherently linked to external systems from and to which energy is transferred.  This dependence upon other systems is specifically what removes any guarantee whatsoever of recovery.  

For the dense, let me repeat and highlight that last sentence:  This dependence upon other systems is specifically what removes any guarantee whatsoever of recovery.

4) Volatility doesn't care which direction you're moving or whether you're making or losing money, it is simply a reflection of instability within a system.  Although I'm certainly generalizing a bit with this next example, it's equally 'bad' in terms of instability whether the price goes up $100 in a day or falls $100.  Accordingly, you shouldn't be looking to your trading success or lack thereof as an indicator of market health.

Again, this list is extremely short and by no means comprehensive, but I thought I'd get the ball rolling with some general advice (Note:  I am NOT a licensed professional).  I like people, which means that I generally like all of you, and I don't enjoy reading stories of people making investment decisions that end up ruining their lives.  So, here goes:

1)  To HODLers, there is absolutely 0% guarantee of a price recovery, and it is absolutely possible for this system to die.

2)  Systemic death can begin at any price.  Volatility and a lack of homeostasis lead to systemic death, not a low price.

3)  However, as Bitcoin grows, its resistance to systemic death increases.  Furthermore, as systemic output grows to match systemic input, the chances of re-establishing a homeostatic state increase.  Consequently, even this precipitous price drop from the ATH over the course of nearly a year is not conclusive evidence of a dying Bitcoin market, but possibly of one that is mending and healing itself.  This is directed towards the doomsday prophets on this forum.

4)  Avoid extreme positions.  Don't commit yourself to sinking with the ship, but also don't pretend icebergs can't or don't exist.

**Note: For the record, I released the majority of my holdings between $600-$850 but still have some stake in this market.
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