Author

Topic: FORTUNEJACK dice game "provably fair" is now provably fraud! (Read 926 times)

newbie
Activity: 38
Merit: 0
Sorry to re-post in this thread, but would some more science being something like this to back up all this help? Well could someone help me understand if it's not the case -

This is from a interesting pdf https://anonymousfiles.io/UeRFSjpa/

Quote
3.4    Reversed Commitment Order
 
Suppose Alice manages to convince Bob to provide 𝑠𝐵 before she provides 𝐶(𝑠𝐴). We will show in this case how Alice can gain a slight advantage over Bob (in excess of the advertised house edge) using very little computational power. One example of a site employing this flawed scheme is FortuneJack [11].
 
One additional aspect of the scheme used by FortuneJack is that the client can define what constitutes the winning outcome. After providing 𝑠𝐵 and receiving 𝐶(𝑠𝐴), the client can freely choose the corresponding winning range and thereby the payout. The server fixes a house edge, so that defining one of the winning range or the payout automatically fixes the other value such that in expectation, the house edge is achieved.  
 
 
 
The client will generally pick between two game variants. The first is a high risk, high reward game. In this game type, the client wins in less than 50% of the output space. The other option is a low risk, low reward game where the client wins in more than 50% of the output space. An example of this can be seen in the image above. By observing the public log for some time, we noticed that a vast majority of players choose the high risk, high reward game, which is perhaps more in the spirit of gambling.
 
Undoubtedly, the server has more clear data regarding client preferences. If the server can target clients who play the high risk, high reward game, it is able to skew results in its favor by selecting an advantageous 𝑠𝐴 given its observation of 𝑠𝐵. The reason is that if the client wins in less than 50% of the output space, there is a range in the middle for which regardless of which side the client chooses, the server will always win. For the example in the image, the client wins if 𝐺(𝑠𝐴,𝑠𝐵) ∈ [0,20) or 𝐺(𝑠𝐴,𝑠𝐵) ∈ [80,100).
 
The client does not always switch its seed after every roll. Instead, the game function is computed with an incrementing nonce over many rolls. This complicates the attack slightly, but still allows for noticeable deviations assuming a reasonably bounded maximum nonce
value. The server can simply compute the average maximum nonce value for a given client and use that as is target nonce.
 
Given both the client’s preference for the high risk, high reward game and a bounded nonce 𝑛∗, the server simply tries a few different hash values and computes the function below. Note that 𝐺(𝑠𝐴,𝑠𝐵) will output a list of rolls of length 𝑛∗.
 
𝑣(𝑠𝐴,𝑠𝐵) = ∑(𝐺(𝑠𝐴,𝑠𝐵)[𝑖] − 50)2 𝑛∗−1 𝑖=0
 
 
arg max 𝑎
𝑓(𝑥) = {𝑣(𝑎,𝑠𝐵) ∣ ∣ 𝑎 ∈ 𝜎𝐴 }
 
In effect, the server is looking for a seed value 𝑎 = 𝑠𝐴 such that for a given 𝑛∗ and 𝑠𝐵, there are more numbers close to 50 than would be in expectation. The value function 𝑣(𝑠𝐴,𝑠𝐵) is just one example of what the server might be optimizing for. A more sophisticated attacker would use the behavior of the client to adjust the value function.
 
It is not feasible to get the most optimal value 𝑎 ∈ 𝜎𝐴, since the space of all seeds is too large. However, it is enough for the server to select a small subset of 𝜎𝐴 and look for the best 𝑎 within that subset. To reduce suspicion, the server could simply generate random 𝑎 values and compute the value functions for these seeds up to a certain time threshold, so that it is harder to detect foul play.
 
There is not much the client can do to defend against this attack aside from choosing to play the low risk, low reward variant of the game. Proving that the server is employing such a scheme would be equally difficult without access to the entire history of rolls, which is not available to the public. Testing the random number generator would require a large amount of cryptocurrency, which might be out of reach for most clients.
 
https://pasteboard.co/IB99iCp.jpg

 
newbie
Activity: 25
Merit: 2
Complaint unresolved. https://www.askgamblers.com/casino-complaints/fortunejack-casino-dice-scam-with-proof
Anyway,  think twice before you decide to paly FortuneJack Dice, guys!

Stop trying. FJ has been very responsive and explained several times why your accusation makes no sense.

Is refusing to provide more than 2000 rolls history being responsive? That's funny.
Btw, here a thread about Is there any way for casinos to cheat the provably fair? https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/is-there-any-way-for-casinos-to-cheat-the-provably-fair-1070228
Casinos can cheat on provably fair system too, if they want. So guys, you can't be too careful.
legendary
Activity: 2198
Merit: 1989
฿uy ฿itcoin
Complaint unresolved. https://www.askgamblers.com/casino-complaints/fortunejack-casino-dice-scam-with-proof
Anyway,  think twice before you decide to paly FortuneJack Dice, guys!

Stop trying. FJ has been very responsive and explained several times why your accusation makes no sense.
newbie
Activity: 25
Merit: 2
Complaint unresolved. https://www.askgamblers.com/casino-complaints/fortunejack-casino-dice-scam-with-proof
Anyway,  think twice before you decide to paly FortuneJack Dice, guys!
legendary
Activity: 2198
Merit: 1989
฿uy ฿itcoin
I reckon you are absolutely right.
It scammed me of 0.004 bitcoin too in dice game. I was simply told that I had multiple accounts. So I proved to them my phone number and IP number. And how I was a lone user.
I asked them to fulfill their obligation and approve my rightfully won bitcoin but they stopped responding. So here I am.
My username in fortunejack is koolson567


Do you have screenshots or any other form of evidence to back up your accusations?
newbie
Activity: 1
Merit: 0
I reckon you are absolutely right.
It scammed me of 0.004 bitcoin too in dice game. I was simply told that I had multiple accounts. So I proved to them my phone number and IP number. And how I was a lone user.
I asked them to fulfill their obligation and approve my rightfully won bitcoin but they stopped responding. So here I am.
My username in fortunejack is koolson567
newbie
Activity: 25
Merit: 2
Can we please stop replying to this thread. It's filled with baseless accusations and shows absolutely no proof whatsoever of FJ even remotely being a scam. Just a bunch of bashing alt accounts.
https://www.askgamblers.com/casino-complaints/fortunejack-casino-dice-scam-with-proof
Below is my lastest reply to the complaint on ASKGAMBLERS:
You provided 2000 rolls hisotry on 11th Feb, and provided the same 2000 rolls on 17th Feb. again when I asked for my complete gaming log in the email. You've been delaying and refused to provide my complete gaming log because you are afraid of your scam being exposed!
And now you said logs "might" have been deleted. Might? Are the logs deleted or not? If they are deleted, why you say "might"? 
Do you think people will believe that a reputed big company like FJ only keep players' latest 2000 rolls on the servers? Maybe you are just hiding the crime you've been commited!

If your team want convince to all your players that Fortunejack Dice is provably fair, just provide all my gaming log.
newbie
Activity: 25
Merit: 2
you still didn't get it , Don't you !!! All Gambling games are scam , What makes you gamble your hard earned money , ofcourse GREED to make easy money from few buttons clicks (when you Win means there is a person in other side lose , its like a circle of nonstop scam and ofc the House is always the final winner ), STOP giving your money to scammers.
you are right. Greed always exists with scams.
sr. member
Activity: 938
Merit: 276
@marlborza

Based on majority of average player (myself included) who are not adjusting their clientseed isn't it possible the site knows the clientseed in advance ?

Quote
Your browser will generate a random clientseed. However, you could and should adjust this clientseed before you start. This way you can make sure the site does not know your clientseed in advance.
https://dicesites.com/provably-fair


Is the clientseed even changing automaticly during a game when you don't adjust it yourself ?Or will the casino know the clientseed in advance from players who don't adjust them after the first game ?



Just googled about possible scams when clientseed is not adjusting automaticly after each game.
Found this:

Quote
I checked out that provably fair bit once before. It really is provably fair... BUT what they don’t make obvious is how easily they can take advantage of someone who just trusts its fair by running the code and getting the “Fair” message.
The whole thing is predicated on having a random seed that “cuts” the deck, so to speak. It’s generated client side and then mixed with a server side seed. But, with nitrogen, the client seed does not regenerate each hand. In fact, it only regenerates once you click their button to regenerate a new one. If you don’t click regenerate every time, they can start generating server side seeds that will be favorable to them once mixed with the seed that they can assume you will not change.
In other words, if you don’t generate a new seed each hand, they can start assuming you will cut the deck in the exact same spot each time and start pre-arranging the deck in their favor.
I haven’t looked at their blackjack in over two years now, so maybe that’s changed, but last I checked you had to open the “provably fair” menu and generate a new seed yourself.

 
sr. member
Activity: 299
Merit: 271
you still didn't get it , Don't you !!! All Gambling games are scam , What makes you gamble your hard earned money , ofcourse GREED to make easy money from few buttons clicks (when you Win means there is a person in other side lose , its like a circle of nonstop scam and ofc the House is always the final winner ), STOP giving your money to scammers.
newbie
Activity: 36
Merit: 0
Can we please stop replying to this thread. It's filled with baseless accusations and shows absolutely no proof whatsoever of FJ even remotely being a scam. Just a bunch of bashing alt accounts.
Could you tell us why your site don't provide access to players' bet history while other sites can? What are you hiding?

A strange question to the shill... He gets paid for having this signature (or probably he is a part of FJ project with his alts as their work is coordinated - check my trust section) and that's why he doesn't like that there are lots of negative vibes around FJ.
legendary
Activity: 1932
Merit: 2272
Any update? Did you receive any response from FortuneJack?
Not yet, you can check the lastest update here https://www.askgamblers.com/casino-complaints/fortunejack-casino-dice-scam-with-proof
They actually did:

Quote from: Fortunejack
Hi,
We kindly ask @askgamblers to show this case to someone who is well aware in the provably fair games and knows the theory of probability.
We have already explained why the player is wrong and ask @askgamblers for the fair judgment.

And OP replied this:

Quote from: vincentzjx
“Provably fair” is just a term casino invented. If you do wanna prove to the public it's fair technologically, the most convincing way is to disclosure the dice game code, and let people who is well aware in programming judge. After all, player seeds are what players can see, but what about the game codes in the server we can not see?

First of all, casino can't know where you are going to place your bet. As result is predetermined, you could have wagered on different side and hit all 9 rolls.

Have you checked bets or you are simple refusing to accept provably fair system as fair system where casino can't cheat unless they change seed "behind" and/or show you wrong result?

Do that, check last 9 bets and post results here.

newbie
Activity: 25
Merit: 2
Can we please stop replying to this thread. It's filled with baseless accusations and shows absolutely no proof whatsoever of FJ even remotely being a scam. Just a bunch of bashing alt accounts.
Could you tell us why your site don't provide access to players' bet history while other sites can? What are you hiding?
newbie
Activity: 25
Merit: 2
Any update? Did you receive any response from FortuneJack?
Not yet, you can check the lastest update here https://www.askgamblers.com/casino-complaints/fortunejack-casino-dice-scam-with-proof
newbie
Activity: 36
Merit: 0
Any update? Did you receive any response from FortuneJack?
legendary
Activity: 2198
Merit: 1989
฿uy ฿itcoin
Can we please stop replying to this thread. It's filled with baseless accusations and shows absolutely no proof whatsoever of FJ even remotely being a scam. Just a bunch of bashing alt accounts.
HCP
legendary
Activity: 2086
Merit: 4361
You dropbox link is broken... so I can't see your graph... but I already made that graph (outlier dropped, only 0.001, 0.002, 0.004, 0.008, 0.016 and 0.032) and showed it above... it was this one:


As you can see... all of these results are more or less on your "average" result and certainly within what you're expect as a margin of error with the limited dataset.


0.016 is above the fair win chance, but the trick is a higher wager is always at a lower win chance than the lower wager.
Win chance of 0.04 & 0.08 is lower than of 0.001 & 0.002.
Win chance of 0.32 is lower than of 0.16.
And one could just as easily claim that there is a higher wager at a higher chance than a lower wager... for instance, win chance of 0.016 is higher than chance of 0.08... and who is to say that 0.128 isn't higher than 0.064?

By your logic, and based on the data you have, you should just only ever bet 0.002 and 0.016 and you'll always come out ahead. If you simply never bet anything else you'll never lose!...By jove, I think you've cracked it! You can now take FJ down! Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

That logic is so fundamentally flawed.


I'd also like to point out that you said you were gambling at chances from 61% to 66%?
I played with payout 1.5-1.6, win chance is from 66% to 61.87% for the 2000 rolls.
Every single one of the win rates for you "main wagers" falls into that range (or is higher):
0.001 - 65.52%
0.002 - 66.78%
0.004 - 65.02%
0.008 - 63.45%
0.016 - 67.81%
0.032 - 64.29%


Tell me, if you bet 1000 or whatever times on each wager with the chance shown in this graph, will you win or lose?
Most likely, you won't win. But that is more to do with the fact that this is a -EV game (like all dice games) and the House Edge will see that you end up losing... and has nothing to do with the game being "rigged" or not.


Besides, as already mentioned, the game is "provably fair". FJ can't manipulate the rolls any more than you can... the results of each roll are predetermined, they have no way to change this based on the size of your wagers.
newbie
Activity: 25
Merit: 2
Wait... so the OP is claiming that an effective sample size of 9 rolls is statistical "proof" that FJ is a scam? Huh Roll Eyes

If you had made all 2000 rolls wagering 0.064 ... and the result was still at 55.6%, then that might be worth further investigation... however, I would suspect that you would find that it would still be in the ~65% range

You shouldn't "cherrypick" results that match your hypothesis... that's called "confirmation bias"

You have conveniently ignored that 0.0015 bets (total of 10 bets, similar sample size) are at 50% winrate and that the 0.003 btc bets are at 55.6% winrate and are actually double the number of 0.064 wagers... why have you ignored them from your pretty graph? oh... because they're actually "lower" bets... and work against your hypothesis Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

In addition, your graphed doubled up on 0.008... which excludes the 0.016 result at 67.8% which makes your chart look a little different. And your chosen vertical range really exaggerates the drop off at the end...

Ignoring for the moment the inclusion of the "9 roll outlier", this is your data, but including the 0.016 results, with your chosen vertical scale of 53% to 70%:
https://i.imgur.com/nrSkRZk.png

That 0.016 result that you omitted changes this a little... that upspike in the higher wagers kind of goes against your hypothesis doesn't it? Still, the last datapoint looks a bit shocking... such a drop! ZOMGWTFHAX! Shocked


Until you then view it in the whole 0% to 100% range Tongue
https://i.imgur.com/VsSSD74.png

And we see results fairly evenly spread around the "average"... except for a 9 roll "outlier" datapoint Tongue


If we then exclude that outlier we see this:
https://i.imgur.com/vECJdBt.png


If we go the other way and include ALL the outliers (I included every data line where there were more than 2 wagers), we get this:
https://i.imgur.com/xjyIqV5.png


Note the light blue "trend" line, that actually indicates an upwards trend in results... interesting.
You took all wagers into account while you question the wager with 9 rolls is not enough as evidence. That's why I bold some wagers in the chart, which are the major wagers I bet when I played the game.
I guess you all agree that the accusation would not be well-grounded if the sample is too small, so if we delete the minor wagers that only bet several time, and only see the major wagers , you'll get a graph more close the fact :
https://previews.dropbox.com/p/thumb/AAXsTXMXYnGZ0FJK6xQmBYUgBt0MF_p6WuxSM4rAiun7nSy9gRTcKm0wMv65BMFAAF7TqfwGw5wlLzJobY0BY2OebLwlM9GCcWMjPrtE0mPSoTydBchKugasxAf5Wr_6olZ_veGekyJRRQQnCM5slVYLZ-NUG7SumoZTpX6lY_MW7whIrrmb9__I_HGhQNpv_1DJzmy-DuHNLyFnNEmf8DfNYaTfyVZ4dwexXlZYr3He1KMDMoZNzBOXCAsQtJo8N5oLhuCiWZs0h8PEP_CJTRw7I3l7EgybiFbqw75pEagDkw/p.png
That's the provability for major wagers: 0.001 0.002 0.004 0.008 0.16 0.32.
0.016 is above the fair win chance, but the trick is a higher wager is always at a lower win chance than the lower wager.
Win chance of 0.04 & 0.08 is lower than of 0.001 & 0.002.
Win chance of 0.32 is lower than of 0.16.

Tell me, if you bet 1000 or whatever times on each wager with the chance shown in this graph, will you win or lose?

It's may not be a straight line downward if hte sampe is enough, but the final statistical outcome is always minus according to the graph.

To be more accurate, I need the complete bet log from FJ team. Of course the sample is not 100% accurate, but at least the general trend can be seen.
HCP
legendary
Activity: 2086
Merit: 4361
Wait... so the OP is claiming that an effective sample size of 9 rolls is statistical "proof" that FJ is a scam? Huh Roll Eyes

If you had made all 2000 rolls wagering 0.064 ... and the result was still at 55.6%, then that might be worth further investigation... however, I would suspect that you would find that it would still be in the ~65% range

You shouldn't "cherrypick" results that match your hypothesis... that's called "confirmation bias"

You have conveniently ignored that 0.0015 bets (total of 10 bets, similar sample size) are at 50% winrate and that the 0.003 btc bets are at 55.6% winrate and are actually double the number of 0.064 wagers... why have you ignored them from your pretty graph? oh... because they're actually "lower" bets... and work against your hypothesis Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

In addition, your graphed doubled up on 0.008... which excludes the 0.016 result at 67.8% which makes your chart look a little different. And your chosen vertical range really exaggerates the drop off at the end...

Ignoring for the moment the inclusion of the "9 roll outlier", this is your data, but including the 0.016 results, with your chosen vertical scale of 53% to 70%:


That 0.016 result that you omitted changes this a little... that upspike in the higher wagers kind of goes against your hypothesis doesn't it? Still, the last datapoint looks a bit shocking... such a drop! ZOMGWTFHAX! Shocked


Until you then view it in the whole 0% to 100% range Tongue


And we see results fairly evenly spread around the "average"... except for a 9 roll "outlier" datapoint Tongue


If we then exclude that outlier we see this:



If we go the other way and include ALL the outliers (I included every data line where there were more than 2 wagers), we get this:



Note the light blue "trend" line, that actually indicates an upwards trend in results... interesting.
hero member
Activity: 1498
Merit: 596
It is not a scam and this thread does not belong in "scam accusation" board, it is more likely an investigation case and it should belong to "investigation" board. I thought this way because its a doubt you have against FJ's dice system and presented your own logical evidence, so it is something to investigate. If FJ had scammed your money, I mean they haven't processed your withdrawal request then it would have perfectly fitted herein scam accusation board. This is completely two different things.

In regards to your accusation, I only want to say that verify your rolls. If your rolls are verified then FJ is solid, if not then you are solid. Just verify those 2000 rolls samples and post the result here. Hopefully, the case will be solved otherwise argument, counter-argument will be infinite. If you can't post the verified results then lock this thread and move on.

Dice = Provably fair  = only way to check the casino's fair system = all the sites are same afaik.

legendary
Activity: 1932
Merit: 2272
Maybe you should go to your doctor to check your eyes.
I just went to see my doctor and doctor said everything is perfectly fine with my eyes, he added, whoever sent me there should visit "head doctor".

Everyone can see the evidence which is the data from no one else but FJ themselves.
You should include #27 to your graph too:



We don't want only 55.6% based on 9 bets. We also want to see 0% based on 1 bet.
newbie
Activity: 25
Merit: 2
Which posts did I miss?
Posts where someone mentioned Provably Fair System.
Which posts did I miss? Was there any response from FJ official account? I can't see any.
Why should they response to scam accusation which has presented zero evidence?

The same as your post:
Quote
FJ is just sending its paid shills here to troll.
Only thing I can see here is that someone has created "bad luck" graph. I don't think anyone here has crystal ball.
Maybe you should go to your doctor to check your eyes. Everyone can see the evidence which is the data from no one else but FJ themselves.
So, the graph is not something I "created", it's just a fact alway there in the game, but hard to notice without enough data.
newbie
Activity: 10
Merit: 0
Which posts did I miss?
Posts where someone mentioned Provably Fair System.
Which posts did I miss? Was there any response from FJ official account? I can't see any.
Why should they response to scam accusation which has presented zero evidence?

The same as your post:
Quote
FJ is just sending its paid shills here to troll.
Only thing I can see here is that someone has created "bad luck" graph. I don't think anyone here has crystal ball.

I can agree with this. I have not seen enough evidence to 100% call this a scam.

Seems like this could have just been a streak of bad luck
legendary
Activity: 1932
Merit: 2272
Which posts did I miss?
Posts where someone mentioned Provably Fair System.
Which posts did I miss? Was there any response from FJ official account? I can't see any.
Why should they respond to scam accusation which has presented zero evidence?

The same as your post:
Quote
FJ is just sending its paid shills here to troll.
Only thing I can see here is that someone has created "bad luck" graph. I don't think anyone here has crystal ball.
full member
Activity: 434
Merit: 101
YouTuber, gambler, and scam-buster.
As many other people have mentioned, your sample size is quite small, so the conclusions you drew cannot be universally applied.

But, to be very frank, the sample size doesn't matter. Even if you take a sample of 200,000 rolls, or even 2,000,000 rolls, and you get a similar result, it doesn't mean the game is deliberately giving you bad rolls on higher bets. The very purpose of the provably fair system is to prove to you that rolls are entirely predetermined and can't be affected by the bet amount.

I made a video on the topic a while ago (specific to bustabit): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7IaewYmqM4

Even if you take an extremely large sample size and you get similar results, it just means you got very very unlucky. It is a mathematical certainty that over infinite rolls, there will be 2,000,000 rolls consecutively that demonstrate the statistics you showed in your 2,000 rolls. All of that is completely irrelevant - anecdotal gambling results mean literally nothing. You just have to verify that the games are provably fair, and you have to verify that the odds are demonstrably what they are advertised to be. You can only do that by learning about the system, and by using the aspects available such as the client seed and the client seed hash. Doing sample rolls and recording statistics from that proves nothing, and never will.
newbie
Activity: 36
Merit: 0
you are right, but I dont' dare play more, coz I know I will lose more on FJ dice.
The same rule applies to all gambling sites.
To prove this scam you'll have to lose many money, which I have done, it's just that FJ team dont provide the evidence, becuase they are afraid.
You have 2000 rolls and known seeds so go, verify results and post proofs here.

Fair point. That's the shadiest thing - no official response here. FJ is just sending its paid shills here to troll. That happens when there are no valid arguments.
You probably missed few posts. But go with good old "payed shills", that usually works  Roll Eyes

Which posts did I miss? Was there any response from FJ official account? I can't see any.
legendary
Activity: 1932
Merit: 2272
you are right, but I dont' dare play more, coz I know I will lose more on FJ dice.
The same rule applies to all gambling sites.
To prove this scam you'll have to lose many money, which I have done, it's just that FJ team dont provide the evidence, becuase they are afraid.
You have 2000 rolls and known seeds so go, verify results and post proofs here.

Fair point. That's the shadiest thing - no official response here. FJ is just sending its paid shills here to troll. That happens when there are no valid arguments.
You probably missed few posts. But go with good old "payed shills", that usually works  Roll Eyes
sr. member
Activity: 490
Merit: 250
Better then stop playing on gambling sites so you wont loss. The fact that you cant prove anything the accusation still be an accusation. Smiley
hero member
Activity: 2926
Merit: 722
DGbet.fun - Crypto Sportsbook
With a nonce based dice system, all rolls are predetemined.
It is a unintentionally typo inside your thread, Sir.
You should correct it, predetermined, instead of predetemined.

No need to point out since its understandable that it is "predetermined" but well Darkstar already edit it.

Open accusation on fortunejack on the scam section https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/fortunejack-scam-5116404, this is not good and will harm the repuation of Fortunejack you all know people who are not into gambling are reading the scam section and if they will not recommend Fortunejack to their friends, they've been here for long time hope they can resolve this.

If you do try to read up above few comments you would realize that OP is just possibly trolling.
newbie
Activity: 36
Merit: 0
since he couldnt get more than 2k rolls

Am I missing something?

I do not play on fortunejack but on other websites you can ask for the history end they will send you an illimited or limited history.

Now if the history is limited to the latest games played, you can play more and ask for a new history, and you can add results from 2 histories.

Since OP seems to be a player with thousands and thousands of played game, he can play more download new history and add data on a spreadsheet to get a more realistic statistic.
Yeah, I also thought about it. But you see I kind of understand that the op does not want to make another 2k rolls just for the sake of increasing the sample, especially since he/she is convinced that FortuneJack is a scam. And besides, nobody said how many rolls is enough, so even if he goes through another 2k I bet there'll be people saying 'nah, still not enough to prove anything'. And I don't understand why FortuneJack won't provide more bet history.. I read the reply, I just did not understand whether it sounds like a real reason.

Fair point. That's the shadiest thing - no official response here. FJ is just sending its paid shills here to troll. That happens when there are no valid arguments.
legendary
Activity: 3248
Merit: 1402
Join the world-leading crypto sportsbook NOW!
since he couldnt get more than 2k rolls

Am I missing something?

I do not play on fortunejack but on other websites you can ask for the history end they will send you an illimited or limited history.

Now if the history is limited to the latest games played, you can play more and ask for a new history, and you can add results from 2 histories.

Since OP seems to be a player with thousands and thousands of played game, he can play more download new history and add data on a spreadsheet to get a more realistic statistic.
Yeah, I also thought about it. But you see I kind of understand that the op does not want to make another 2k rolls just for the sake of increasing the sample, especially since he/she is convinced that FortuneJack is a scam. And besides, nobody said how many rolls is enough, so even if he goes through another 2k I bet there'll be people saying 'nah, still not enough to prove anything'. And I don't understand why FortuneJack won't provide more bet history.. I read the reply, I just did not understand whether it sounds like a real reason.
hero member
Activity: 3178
Merit: 977
www.Crypto.Games: Multiple coins, multiple games
You should at least provide some more evidence to become more clear.

2000 Rolls are not ENOUGH to reach some specific "100%" conclusion.
That might also be some random probabilistic downgrade between your bets.
Try to get more then 10k at least even if you had to somehow create some software to store them.

That way i believe you would be able to get enough proof.

No matter how many rolls he can provide, even if he has 1 million rolls data but it wont prove anything. Something related to provably fairness is not about the winning chance by bet amount. Provably fairness is about algorithm where players are able to verify the outcome. 1 bet is enough to prove if there is really something fishy on the provably fair system of any sites. Just like what Loycemobile said, what is posted by OP has nothing to do with provably fair mechanism.
You think provably fair system is the ONLY way to verify if it's fair, and ignored the game data, that's funny. Did you see FJ dice game code and verified it? But yes what I posted has nothing to do with provably fair mechanism, what I posted is the data that clearly shows FJ dice is not fair except house edge. The higher the bet amount, the higher the chance to lose.
Are you serious buddy? The provably fair system is something that makes gambling on online crypto casinos more worthwhile when compared to regular FIAT based online casinos since it basically offers an extra layer of legitimacy thanks to the blockchain.

Fortunejack has proven itself as a reputable casino over time which is why I don't agree with you and the provably fair system helps in this aspect, but I don't like their sneaky changes to their affiliate commissions though.
legendary
Activity: 2772
Merit: 3284
You think provably fair system is the ONLY way to verify if it's fair, and ignored the game data, that's funny. Did you see FJ dice game code and verified it? But yes what I posted has nothing to do with provably fair mechanism, what I posted is the data that clearly shows FJ dice is not fair except house edge. The higher the bet amount, the higher the chance to lose.

It's the exact same system as Primedice/Nitrogen/other dice sites except with rolls offset by 0.01 for whatever reason. Dice is actually provably fair unlike some other games they have. You can verify this by using Primedice/Nitrogen's provably fair verifier.

With a nonce based dice system, all rolls are predetermined. Learn about how provably fair works before complaining: https://dicesites.com/provably-fair

(or, stop trolling)
newbie
Activity: 25
Merit: 2
This is BS. All your results are close to the expected result except for 0.064 where you only have 9 total rolls. 9 rolls is an insignificant sample size.
I dont think you get the point for 2 reasons:
1. You said this because you didn't see all my 181 thousand rolls. I had a lot more than 9 rolls on 0.064 and the win chance is also less than the expected chance.
2. When we talk about the win chance for different bet amounts, it's not a "close" thing, it's the trend that matters! Now, think about trend A: if the win chance increase with increased bet amount but still in a close range, then the player always win. And the fact is trend B: the win chance decreased with increased bet amount, that trend shows the game is against the player. So win chances in both 2 trends can be close to expected chance, but isn't there a huge difference? Which trend will you choose as a player?
Like I said, a slightly decreasing in win chance with increased bet amount can cost all you win on the long run!
newbie
Activity: 25
Merit: 2
You should at least provide some more evidence to become more clear.

2000 Rolls are not ENOUGH to reach some specific "100%" conclusion.
That might also be some random probabilistic downgrade between your bets.
Try to get more then 10k at least even if you had to somehow create some software to store them.

That way i believe you would be able to get enough proof.

No matter how many rolls he can provide, even if he has 1 million rolls data but it wont prove anything. Something related to provably fairness is not about the winning chance by bet amount. Provably fairness is about algorithm where players are able to verify the outcome. 1 bet is enough to prove if there is really something fishy on the provably fair system of any sites. Just like what Loycemobile said, what is posted by OP has nothing to do with provably fair mechanism.
You think provably fair system is the ONLY way to verify if it's fair, and ignored the game data, that's funny. Did you see FJ dice game code and verified it? But yes what I posted has nothing to do with provably fair mechanism, what I posted is the data that clearly shows FJ dice is not fair except house edge. The higher the bet amount, the higher the chance to lose.
sr. member
Activity: 1680
Merit: 379
Top Crypto Casino
This is BS. All your results are close to the expected result except for 0.064 where you only have 9 total rolls. 9 rolls is an insignificant sample size.
newbie
Activity: 25
Merit: 2
You should at least provide some more evidence to become more clear.

2000 Rolls are not ENOUGH to reach some specific "100%" conclusion.
That might also be some random probabilistic downgrade between your bets.
Try to get more then 10k at least even if you had to somehow create some software to store them.

That way i believe you would be able to get enough proof.
Actually I had 181 thousand rolls so far, but why can't FJ provide it ? That's the problem. I also played on some other sites, where I can get all my bet history.
The statistic is only a sample of my 181 thousand rolls, I played it myself, all the other rolls had the similar thing with the 2000 rolls, which is higher the bet, higher the lose chance. So I know my proof is enough, though FJ can't provide it all.
newbie
Activity: 25
Merit: 2
since he couldnt get more than 2k rolls

Am I missing something?

I do not play on fortunejack but on other websites you can ask for the history end they will send you an illimited or limited history.

Now if the history is limited to the latest games played, you can play more and ask for a new history, and you can add results from 2 histories.

Since OP seems to be a player with thousands and thousands of played game, he can play more download new history and add data on a spreadsheet to get a more realistic statistic.
you are right, but I dont' dare play more, coz I know I will lose more on FJ dice. To prove this scam you'll have to lose many money, which I have done, it's just that FJ team dont provide the evidence, becuase they are afraid.
newbie
Activity: 25
Merit: 2
It is too technical complicated for me, with my limited technical knowledge and skills.
In short, your evidence shows that Fortune Jack has not scammed, or broken their rules of rewards to their supporters and users, DarkStar_?
Sorry for the confusing, English is not my first language so.
To put it simple, the actual win chance is higher when your bet amount is low.
The actual win chance is lower when your bet amount is high. Especially when you keep doubling or increse the bet amount largely, it more likely to trigger the long lose streak. Am I clear?
newbie
Activity: 25
Merit: 2
Well, you know the rule "The house always win".

It is all about random. Even if you have 99.9% win chance, it doesn't means that out of 1000 rolls you will lose only once.
If you'are talking about house edge, that's another thing. House edge is disclosed and accpeted by players before players play in casino. But fraud is different. It's totally fine if lose or win is purely a random thing. But the issue now is that this "provably fair" game is manipulated against players, which is unfair for players. It's not about luck or something, it's SCAM!
legendary
Activity: 2772
Merit: 3284
Grab your client seed, server seed hash and server seed and you can figure out an infinite number of rolls because of the nonce based provably fair system. Here is a pair that I just generated:
Code:
Server Seed Hash: ac954d970822d91cf35b6c06ebac043cd778b60b0395a0cc10d46a4dae7525ee
Server Seed: efd7484340d7b05c9cb9852c88141ec6008c05a2153b15a301ba157ad63e0f45
Client Seed: 7a5c9caf8b4ef85a028f8b39b67f91e322c3d4b57505477d59fa4a04561da3d3

You can put the info into DiceSites' PrimeDice verifier and generate an infinite number of rolls. What you claim is literally impossible because every result depends on the same server seed + client seed combo, which doesn't care whether you bet 1 million Bitcoin or 1 satoshi. You're very likely just having confirmation bias or believe in gambler's fallacy.
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1312
You should at least provide some more evidence to become more clear.

2000 Rolls are not ENOUGH to reach some specific "100%" conclusion.
That might also be some random probabilistic downgrade between your bets.
Try to get more then 10k at least even if you had to somehow create some software to store them.

That way i believe you would be able to get enough proof.

No matter how many rolls he can provide, even if he has 1 million rolls data but it wont prove anything. Something related to provably fairness is not about the winning chance by bet amount. Provably fairness is about algorithm where players are able to verify the outcome. 1 bet is enough to prove if there is really something fishy on the provably fair system of any sites. Just like what Loycemobile said, what is posted by OP has nothing to do with provably fair mechanism.
sr. member
Activity: 1988
Merit: 275
2000 rolls is not enough of a sample size.
Well, it then be good for op to increase the sample size and probably reach a definite conclusion on whether your aligation is true or not. O P can equally send the me the data so that I can help him run a regression analysis and see what will be the out come of the result.

We need more people to willingly lend their data for further evaluation of what has been presented by the OP. But for now, the reputation of FortuneJack is still the same for me. They wouldn't risk their name with such "manipulation" in their system.
sr. member
Activity: 684
Merit: 403
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
You should at least provide some more evidence to become more clear.

2000 Rolls are not ENOUGH to reach some specific "100%" conclusion.
That might also be some random probabilistic downgrade between your bets.
Try to get more then 10k at least even if you had to somehow create some software to store them.

That way i believe you would be able to get enough proof.
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1517
#1 VIP Crypto Casino
since he couldnt get more than 2k rolls

Am I missing something?

I do not play on fortunejack but on other websites you can ask for the history end they will send you an illimited or limited history.

Now if the history is limited to the latest games played, you can play more and ask for a new history, and you can add results from 2 histories.

Since OP seems to be a player with thousands and thousands of played game, he can play more download new history and add data on a spreadsheet to get a more realistic statistic.
legendary
Activity: 3122
Merit: 1102
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
Yeah, that just isn't sufficient. You'll need to have a sample size with at least 4 standard deviations of significance probably to even start to "prove" that shenanigans are going on. My guess is that you aren't anywhere close to that.

since he couldnt get more than 2k rolls, then i would say he should have not deduced that FortuneJack is a scam
a premature conclusion on his own without getting more info
if he has friends playing on this site, ask them to pull out their data as well
and assess if theres really unusual things going on this site. this allegation will just be ignored by most because nothing substantial is shown.
hero member
Activity: 1659
Merit: 687
LoyceV on the road. Or couch.
This has nothing to do with probably fairness.
sr. member
Activity: 1330
Merit: 291
2000 rolls is not enough of a sample size.
Well, it then be good for op to increase the sample size and probably reach a definite conclusion on whether your aligation is true or not. O P can equally send the me the data so that I can help him run a regression analysis and see what will be the out come of the result.
legendary
Activity: 3374
Merit: 1922
Shuffle.com
Since respected people say that 2k rolls is not enough, maybe you could get more betting history now?
The problem is you can't get more, even if you ask their support they won't allow you to see more than 2000 bets.

I asked the support why and they said "All the limitation are for proper usage of the page."

I was going to suggest the dicebot but it's not working for fortunejack.
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1517
#1 VIP Crypto Casino
As said by Hampuz this is not enough big sample size.

Bigger the sample it will be, smaller the variance it will be and it should be equal to the house's edge, so in the end the variance decrease more you play.

If they don't give access to older games you can play new games and download the new history but since games are -Ev for players will lose more money doing so.
legendary
Activity: 3248
Merit: 1402
Join the world-leading crypto sportsbook NOW!
It's important to talk these issues through and doubt the trust we usually take for granted when it comes to established companies like FortuneJack. You are saying that you could not get more bet history, did you receive any official explanation why so?
Also, I probably don't understand something but isn't a provably fair casino unable to cheat, because one can check any transaction and make sure it's fair?
Since respected people say that 2k rolls is not enough, maybe you could get more betting history now?
It is the same report as what Lucky7btc did on the ANN thread of Fortunejack here https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.49896015
So basically who did the evaluate the 2000 rolls? You or Lucky7btc?
I'm not trying to defend fortunejack, but is it a valid proof that their provably fair system is a fraud?
It seems to me that Lucky7btc does not say that its his 2k rolls history.. The post is confusing but there's a mention at the beginning and in the end, hinting that it was a story of another user.
hero member
Activity: 1328
Merit: 563
MintDice.com | TG: t.me/MintDice
Yeah, that just isn't sufficient. You'll need to have a sample size with at least 4 standard deviations of significance probably to even start to "prove" that shenanigans are going on. My guess is that you aren't anywhere close to that.
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1312
It is the same report as what Lucky7btc did on the ANN thread of Fortunejack here https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.49896015
So basically who did the evaluate the 2000 rolls? You or Lucky7btc?
I'm not trying to defend fortunejack, but is it a valid proof that their provably fair system is a fraud?

It seems to me that Lucky7btc does not say that its his 2k rolls history.. The post is confusing but there's a mention at the beginning and in the end, hinting that it was a story of another user.

Oh my bad, I did not notice it.
legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1215
Well, you know the rule "The house always win".

It is all about random. Even if you have 99.9% win chance, it doesn't means that out of 1000 rolls you will lose only once.
sr. member
Activity: 490
Merit: 250
FortuneJack is one of my favorite gambling site when I started playing and learning about crypto currency and I can say that I have lost many times in their. But to this date I dont play in their anymore maybe because of that Provably fair. I will try my luck at stake.com and see if I can win some. 
newbie
Activity: 25
Merit: 2
2000 rolls is not enough of a sample size.
The problem is, Fortunejack refused to send me more history, even ASKGAMBLERS asked them to do so. I guess they worried that this trick is more clear once they provided my complete history. But the trend is already there even for 2000 rolls.
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 6194
Meh.
2000 rolls is not enough of a sample size.
hero member
Activity: 1316
Merit: 514
~snip~
I played with payout 1.5-1.6, win chance is from 66% to 61.87% for the 2000 rolls. The actual average win chance for all 2000 rolls is 65.3%, which is fine and fair. But the win chance for each bet amount decreased while the bet amount was doubled:
Bet amount 0.001, win chance 65.5% (>65.3%)
Bet amount 0.002, win chance 66.8% (>65.3%),
—here is where the trick comes in—
Bet amount 0.004, win chance 65.0% (<65.3%),
Bet amount 0.008, win chance 63.4% (<65.3%),
Bet amount 0.032, win chance 64.3% (<65.3%),
Bet amount 0.064, win chance 55.6% (<65.3%).

See? The higher the bet, the lower the win chance!

Even one lose on a high bet may cost all you won on low bets. So a slightly decrease in win chance with increased bet amount can be a disaster for each player on the long run.
~snip~

Then you found something that can be use against the house, Don't bet more than 0.002 and have the higher chance of winning.

Using martingale is proven ineffective in any dice games. in the end you will just lose everything its not worth it to bet 0.064 just to recoup your 0.001 initial bet. Set your stop loss after 3 losing streak and accept defeat against the house
legendary
Activity: 1582
Merit: 1031
its very hard to proofe this ....but on luckgame i had same experience when i bet there at low amounts < 0.0001 its mostly fair.
But when i bet with higher amounts i got ripped fast XD


regards
newbie
Activity: 25
Merit: 2
Now I'm gonna disclose a unbelievable fact with proof.  Fortunejack dice game is not provably fair at all. It’s just the trick is hard to notice.

I played there for months, and had 181 thousand rolls. At first, I found the game fishy, because when I bet very low, I win like 9 out of 10. But once I tried to increase or double my bet amount, the win chance seemed getting lower and lower notably. At last, I realized that keeping increasing the bet amount tends to trigger the lose streak more likely. The lose streak didn't happen 100% randomly.

Then I posted some articles online about this issue, the FJ support team reached to me and send me my lastest 2000 rolls, I ananysised the data, and get this chart:
http://zhengyijun.cn/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/1.-Fortunejack-Dice-SCAM-Bet-Amount-Influces-the-Chance.png

The chart shows clearly that the higher you bet, the higher the chance you lose, instead a consistent chance for different bet amounts.
To put it another way, your bet amount will influence the roll outcome.

This is my bet history if you wanna check it yourself: https://1drv.ms/f/s!AnO-if4gpLl5jAaOZTQGWvXz2nr1
I’ll list some data here:
I played with payout 1.5-1.6, win chance is from 66% to 61.87% for the 2000 rolls. The actual average win chance for all 2000 rolls is 65.3%, which is fine and fair. But the win chance for each bet amount decreased while the bet amount was doubled:
Bet amount 0.001, win chance 65.5% (>65.3%)
Bet amount 0.002, win chance 66.8% (>65.3%),
—here is where the trick comes in—
Bet amount 0.004, win chance 65.0% (<65.3%),
Bet amount 0.008, win chance 63.4% (<65.3%),
Bet amount 0.032, win chance 64.3% (<65.3%),
Bet amount 0.064, win chance 55.6% (<65.3%).

See? The higher the bet, the lower the win chance!

Even one lose on a high bet may cost all you won on low bets. So a slightly decrease in win chance with increased bet amount can be a disaster for each player on the long run.

We can see clearly the trend from 2000 rolls. And the trend will be more clearer if Fortunejack team could provide all my history. Every player can ananysis your history like this, or send your data to me. I can defenitly prove Fortunejack dice game is fraud!

Being popular doesn’t mean being safe. The provably fair system can't explain this unfair fact. The outcome shows the truth!

Please, everyone, forward this to your friend and don’t waste your time and money on FortuneJack anymore. You’ll lose everything on FortuneJack dice SCAM.
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