Gambling Idea? Go or No? | Bitcointalksearch.org

bit777

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Quote from: b!z on October 17, 2013, 11:30:51 PM

Quote from: bit777 on October 17, 2013, 03:33:55 PM

Quote from: cwil on October 17, 2013, 03:31:13 PM

Quote from: bit777 on October 17, 2013, 12:49:20 PM

No. The second hash is generated by blockchain.info API, over which we have 0 control. The way their api works is like this:

A player deposits money to a blockchain.info address - with a generated by the player transaction id
blockchain.info reroutes the transaction towards the final destination (our wallet address) - blockchain.info generates their own transaction id

We combine the player transaction hash and the blockchain.info generated hash to receive the final value.

We don't have control over either one, since we don't initiate either transaction of the 2. We cannot manipulate either one, and the player cannot manipulate the blockchain.info one. So it cannot be cheated by either party.

You're using the receive method in their api then? (https://blockchain.info/api/receive?method=create&address=$receiving_address&callback=$callback_url)

If so, then I no longer believe you have the ability to alter the results in your instant win game. Thanks for clearing that up.

Yes that's correct. And it very much reproduces marcotheminer's idea (or a very similar one) in a non-cheatable way.

The real concern is that there could be a chance that Blockchain.info is generating TXIDs, until it creates one that benefits the casino. We all know that the chance of this happening is probably zero, but it is not 100% provably fair. This could cause players to be concerned, even though it is very unlikely that there is a cooperation between blockchain.info and bit777.

The provably fair system implemented by casinos such as satoshidice cannot be rigged by the operator or any other parties, since it is backed by cryptography.

Is this not correct?

Yes, technically you are correct. If there is a hidden alliance between us and blockchain.info, then the fairness can be jeopardized.

b!z

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Quote from: bit777 on October 17, 2013, 03:33:55 PM

Quote from: cwil on October 17, 2013, 03:31:13 PM

Quote from: bit777 on October 17, 2013, 12:49:20 PM

No. The second hash is generated by blockchain.info API, over which we have 0 control. The way their api works is like this:

A player deposits money to a blockchain.info address - with a generated by the player transaction id
blockchain.info reroutes the transaction towards the final destination (our wallet address) - blockchain.info generates their own transaction id

We combine the player transaction hash and the blockchain.info generated hash to receive the final value.

We don't have control over either one, since we don't initiate either transaction of the 2. We cannot manipulate either one, and the player cannot manipulate the blockchain.info one. So it cannot be cheated by either party.

You're using the receive method in their api then? (https://blockchain.info/api/receive?method=create&address=$receiving_address&callback=$callback_url)

If so, then I no longer believe you have the ability to alter the results in your instant win game. Thanks for clearing that up.

Yes that's correct. And it very much reproduces marcotheminer's idea (or a very similar one) in a non-cheatable way.

The real concern is that there could be a chance that Blockchain.info is generating TXIDs, until it creates one that benefits the casino. We all know that the chance of this happening is probably zero, but it is not 100% provably fair. This could cause players to be concerned, even though it is very unlikely that there is a cooperation between blockchain.info and bit777.

The provably fair system implemented by casinos such as satoshidice cannot be rigged by the operator or any other parties, since it is backed by cryptography.

Is this not correct?

bit777

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Quote from: cwil on October 17, 2013, 03:31:13 PM

Quote from: bit777 on October 17, 2013, 12:49:20 PM

No. The second hash is generated by blockchain.info API, over which we have 0 control. The way their api works is like this:

A player deposits money to a blockchain.info address - with a generated by the player transaction id
blockchain.info reroutes the transaction towards the final destination (our wallet address) - blockchain.info generates their own transaction id

We combine the player transaction hash and the blockchain.info generated hash to receive the final value.

We don't have control over either one, since we don't initiate either transaction of the 2. We cannot manipulate either one, and the player cannot manipulate the blockchain.info one. So it cannot be cheated by either party.

You're using the receive method in their api then? (https://blockchain.info/api/receive?method=create&address=$receiving_address&callback=$callback_url)

If so, then I no longer believe you have the ability to alter the results in your instant win game. Thanks for clearing that up.

Yes that's correct. And it very much reproduces marcotheminer's idea (or a very similar one) in a non-cheatable way.

cwil

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Activity: 285

Merit: 262

Quote from: bit777 on October 17, 2013, 12:49:20 PM

No. The second hash is generated by blockchain.info API, over which we have 0 control. The way their api works is like this:

A player deposits money to a blockchain.info address - with a generated by the player transaction id
blockchain.info reroutes the transaction towards the final destination (our wallet address) - blockchain.info generates their own transaction id

We combine the player transaction hash and the blockchain.info generated hash to receive the final value.

We don't have control over either one, since we don't initiate either transaction of the 2. We cannot manipulate either one, and the player cannot manipulate the blockchain.info one. So it cannot be cheated by either party.

You're using the receive method in their api then? (https://blockchain.info/api/receive?method=create&address=$receiving_address&callback=$callback_url)

If so, then I no longer believe you have the ability to alter the results in your instant win game. Thanks for clearing that up.

imrer

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I don't believe it's a good idea.

imagereply

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http://www.crappie.com/crappie/attachments/florida/107554d1353838545-creeks-back-hijack.gif

bit777

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Quote from: DiamondCardz on October 17, 2013, 12:54:31 PM

Quote from: bit777 on October 17, 2013, 12:49:20 PM

No. The second hash is generated by blockchain.info API

Oh, that's completely fine then. Assuming you don't have a secret kind of alliance with blockchain.info. Wink

Unfortunately we don't! I would love to have our game right inside the wallet similar to the way SD has theirs

DiamondCardz

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Quote from: bit777 on October 17, 2013, 12:49:20 PM

No. The second hash is generated by blockchain.info API

Oh, that's completely fine then. Assuming you don't have a secret kind of alliance with blockchain.info. Wink

tonino

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following this discussion now with big interest. I hope at the end we all will know what really is and who is provably fair.

bit777

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No. The second hash is generated by blockchain.info API, over which we have 0 control. The way their api works is like this:

A player deposits money to a blockchain.info address - with a generated by the player transaction id
blockchain.info reroutes the transaction towards the final destination (our wallet address) - blockchain.info generates their own transaction id

We combine the player transaction hash and the blockchain.info generated hash to receive the final value.

We don't have control over either one, since we don't initiate either transaction of the 2. We cannot manipulate either one, and the player cannot manipulate the blockchain.info one. So it cannot be cheated by either party.

DiamondCardz

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Quote from: cwil on October 17, 2013, 12:02:01 PM

Just to be clear, the bit777 instant gamble uses the hash of the txid of the incoming transaction plus the txid of a second transaction, and this second transaction originates from the bit777 wallet, correct? If this is so, then it would be trivial for bit777 to determine the result of any instant gamble through methods described in this thread.

Yep, you're right about that. bit777 could create any bet result quickly.

cwil

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Just to be clear, the bit777 instant gamble uses the hash of the txid of the incoming transaction plus the txid of a second transaction, and this second transaction originates from the bit777 wallet, correct? If this is so, then it would be trivial for bit777 to determine the result of any instant gamble through methods described in this thread.

I have no reason to believe this is actually happening, but I think that is the point b!z is trying to make. Regardless, the majority of the games on bit777 aren't provably fair as defined by the bitcoin community anyway, so I doubt it matters to anyone gambling there. You could easily just use the sdice method of generating a secret per day, hashing it, and releasing the hash. Generate your result as secret+hash and then no one can complain.

DiamondCardz

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I can use rawtransactions and bankrupt your casino within a few minutes-an hour depending on my bankroll. Terrible idea.

bit777

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Quote from: monsterer on October 17, 2013, 08:54:00 AM

Quote from: bit777 on October 17, 2013, 02:56:59 AM

We don't have control over either of the 2 hashes. They both come from the blockchain. Hence, we cannot manipulate the outcome in any way. Hence it is provably fair.

That's not how it supposed to work. Provably fair means you give the players a key before they place the bet, which they can then use after they've lost or won to confirm that there was no cheating.

If you check our explanation on site, you will see that we give the players an option to check each transaction themselves.

b!z

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Quote from: imagereply on October 17, 2013, 02:55:40 AM

Quote from: b!z on October 17, 2013, 02:20:11 AM

It is not provably fair, and the link he provided does not claim that it is provably fair.

From what I can see, you can prove how the results are calculated, but you cannot prove that it is fair.

No, I am not. Maybe you should sit down and think about how wrong you are.

imagereply

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Quote from: marcotheminer on October 16, 2013, 12:24:29 AM

Alright so I came across this idea for gambling using the TX ID of bets which would be sent through.

Simply send a bet to (address here) and if the last digit of the TX ID is an even number you win 1.98X your bet in return,

What I want to know is: Is this a good idea and Can someone exploit this in any way?

https://lh3.ggpht.com/--nlocNUuLjk/TdE91pktk_I/AAAAAAAAAGQ/J6D2FEXdj3s/s400/LabelForItSucks.jpg

monsterer

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Quote from: bit777 on October 17, 2013, 02:56:59 AM

We don't have control over either of the 2 hashes. They both come from the blockchain. Hence, we cannot manipulate the outcome in any way. Hence it is provably fair.

That's not how it supposed to work. Provably fair means you give the players a key before they place the bet, which they can then use after they've lost or won to confirm that there was no cheating.

bit777

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We don't have control over either of the 2 hashes. They both come from the blockchain. Hence, we cannot manipulate the outcome in any way. Hence it is provably fair.

imagereply

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Quote from: b!z on October 17, 2013, 02:20:11 AM

It is not provably fair, and the link he provided does not claim that it is provably fair.

From what I can see, you can prove how the results are calculated, but you cannot prove that it is fair.

http://static2.fjcdn.com/comments/Are+you+for+real+man+Jesus+Christ+do+you+not+_84dee4bd81a89f503bbb65ca10940327.jpg

b!z

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Quote from: monsterer on October 17, 2013, 02:08:55 AM

Quote from: bit777 on October 16, 2013, 04:08:33 PM

You should take a look at our instant gamble. We have already built this game and it works rather well: https://www.bit777.com/support/instant_gamble.aspx . We have had this game for the past 2 months. It can't be cheated by the method above, because it also uses the 2nd hash generated by blockchain.info api when rerouting the transaction towards the final address.

How can that possibly be provably fair? The outgoing transaction contains the winnings which means the odds have already been computed, so you can't possibly use that hash to compute the random number.

It is not provably fair, and the link he provided does not claim that it is provably fair.

From what I can see, you can prove how the results are calculated, but you cannot prove that it is fair.

monsterer

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Quote from: bit777 on October 16, 2013, 04:08:33 PM

You should take a look at our instant gamble. We have already built this game and it works rather well: https://www.bit777.com/support/instant_gamble.aspx . We have had this game for the past 2 months. It can't be cheated by the method above, because it also uses the 2nd hash generated by blockchain.info api when rerouting the transaction towards the final address.

How can that possibly be provably fair? The outgoing transaction contains the winnings which means the odds have already been computed, so you can't possibly use that hash to compute the random number.

marcotheminer

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┴puoʎǝq ʞool┴

Quote from: tonino on October 16, 2013, 11:47:18 PM

Quote from: marcotheminer on October 16, 2013, 07:05:56 PM

Quote from: bit777 on October 16, 2013, 04:08:33 PM

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah SELF PROMOTING LINK HERE Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah.

No need to advertise your site here.

but why not see it different. actually maybe he wanted to help You by showing how it works and that Your idea might be good but already offered on the bitcoin market.

His idea is different to mine.

tonino

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Quote from: marcotheminer on October 16, 2013, 07:05:56 PM

Quote from: bit777 on October 16, 2013, 04:08:33 PM

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah SELF PROMOTING LINK HERE Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah.

No need to advertise your site here.

but why not see it different. actually maybe he wanted to help You by showing how it works and that Your idea might be good but already offered on the bitcoin market.

marcotheminer

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┴puoʎǝq ʞool┴

Quote from: bit777 on October 16, 2013, 04:08:33 PM

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah SELF PROMOTING LINK HERE Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah.

No need to advertise your site here.

bit777

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Merit: 250

You should take a look at our instant gamble. We have already built this game and it works rather well: https://www.bit777.com/support/instant_gamble.aspx . We have had this game for the past 2 months. It can't be cheated by the method above, because it also uses the 2nd hash generated by blockchain.info api when rerouting the transaction towards the final address.

monsterer

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Quote from: marcotheminer on October 16, 2013, 02:59:53 AM

How is this possible?

Thank you for the information!

By creating a raw transaction using the json API, hashing it -> TXID. Find all even TXIDs, discard odds ones, submit -> win.

stromma44

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Quote from: marcotheminer on October 16, 2013, 02:59:53 AM

Quote from: monsterer on October 16, 2013, 02:56:03 AM

Quote from: marcotheminer on October 16, 2013, 12:24:29 AM

What I want to know is: Is this a good idea and Can someone exploit this in any way?[/b]

Terrible idea. I can find out my TXID before I send it to you, generate lots of transactions, only keep the ones with TXID last digit even and win every time.

How is this possible?

Thank you for the information!

When you signing TX you use private key + random number. Changing the random number generate different TXID

bentl

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> Gambling for jun why not ?

pand70

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Quote from: monsterer on October 16, 2013, 02:56:03 AM

Quote from: marcotheminer on October 16, 2013, 12:24:29 AM

What I want to know is: Is this a good idea and Can someone exploit this in any way?[/b]

Terrible idea. I can find out my TXID before I send it to you, generate lots of transactions, only keep the ones with TXID last digit even and win every time.

This. Players will broadcast only winning txids and discard everything else...

gamybtc

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Quote from: monsterer on October 16, 2013, 02:56:03 AM

Quote from: marcotheminer on October 16, 2013, 12:24:29 AM

What I want to know is: Is this a good idea and Can someone exploit this in any way?[/b]

Terrible idea. I can find out my TXID before I send it to you, generate lots of transactions, only keep the ones with TXID last digit even and win every time.

If you can really find out, you can become rich overnight without doing anything

marcotheminer

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┴puoʎǝq ʞool┴

Quote from: monsterer on October 16, 2013, 02:56:03 AM

Quote from: marcotheminer on October 16, 2013, 12:24:29 AM

What I want to know is: Is this a good idea and Can someone exploit this in any way?[/b]

Terrible idea. I can find out my TXID before I send it to you, generate lots of transactions, only keep the ones with TXID last digit even and win every time.

How is this possible?

Thank you for the information!

monsterer

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Quote from: marcotheminer on October 16, 2013, 12:24:29 AM

What I want to know is: Is this a good idea and Can someone exploit this in any way?[/b]

Terrible idea. I can find out my TXID before I send it to you, generate lots of transactions, only keep the ones with TXID last digit even and win every time.

marcotheminer

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┴puoʎǝq ʞool┴

Quote from: tonino on October 16, 2013, 12:41:43 AM

Quote from: marcotheminer on October 16, 2013, 12:24:29 AM

Alright so I came across this idea for gambling using the TX ID of bets which would be sent through.

Simply send a bet to (address here) and if the last digit of the TX ID is an even number you win 1.98X your bet in return,

What I want to know is: Is this a good idea and Can someone exploit this in any way?

I dont know if it is a good idea but could you please tell me % how much the house edge is if You pay 1.98X the bet? for example I bet 1 BTC so what would I get paid and what is the house edge?

thanks

The house edge is 1%, hence why you would get paid 1.98x your bet (50% chance of winning).

If you bet 1 btc you would receive 1.98 btc in return.

tonino

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Quote from: marcotheminer on October 16, 2013, 12:24:29 AM

Alright so I came across this idea for gambling using the TX ID of bets which would be sent through.

Simply send a bet to (address here) and if the last digit of the TX ID is an even number you win 1.98X your bet in return,

What I want to know is: Is this a good idea and Can someone exploit this in any way?

I dont know if it is a good idea but could you please tell me % how much the house edge is if You pay 1.98X the bet? for example I bet 1 BTC so what would I get paid and what is the house edge?

thanks

marcotheminer

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┴puoʎǝq ʞool┴

Alright so I came across this idea for gambling using the TX ID of bets which would be sent through.

Simply send a bet to (address here) and if the last digit of the TX ID is an even number you win 1.98X your bet in return,

What I want to know is: Is this a good idea and Can someone exploit this in any way?

Topic: Gambling Idea? Go or No? (Read 1672 times)