Topic: Getting some serious harware (Read 2957 times)

Yes, but the price is too high compare to other company that is offering.

You have gold fever. You know that you just want to mine. You think everyone is probably  lying about it being impractical  because they want it all for themselves. Fortunately your gut is telling you that mining just doesn't add up. It's a big mistake. 

I was just like you. I bought an Asic for $9000. At the time it would have mined 7 coins per day! In a couple of weeks it would have paid for itself right!?  Luckily they never delivered it because the difficulty is now so high it would have never paid for itself. So far the only ones that have received refunds from that company are those with Pay Pal and Credit Card.  That was the smartest thing I did with Asics was  forcing a charge back with my Credit Card. They are dissolving the company. Some out up to $18,000 are organizing to sue them.

If you have to take a loss and get an Asic I would buy from KNC as I think they are one of the few that have delivered, more than what was promised and on time. Not sure though? 

With all these Asics soon coming on line it is very unlikely that you will ever mine your money back. Put on your little thinking cap. Don't do anything stupid. Don't go and do something when you know it doesn't add up. Don't buy with cash or Bitcoin.
   

The thing is that all the companies need to prove that they are competent and trustworthy. All of them are pretty much new to the market or proved to be a disappointment (BFL), hence it's hard to recommend any of them.

Considering that all the available options are pre-orders involve lengthy queues or obsolete over-priced hardware, I think it's not the best time to purchase any mining hardware now.

I would look out for the next die shrink (supposedly 22nm or 14nm) and time the purchase when the preorders open.

Considering the past, from an investing perspective it was always better to invest in bitcoin rather than mining.

Having said that, I have an early preorder with cointerra, but I don't look it as an investment rather than a passion and a gamble.


(Edit: I don't have significant reputation, but I've been mining since 2011)

Yes, it does.


If it only was that easy.

You'd have to be absolutely brain-dead to mine BTC with a GPU right now. That leaves a couple of brain-dead individuals and a lot of people with ASICs.

Since ASICs can't be used for anything else, you can do exactly three things with them:

1) Sell them.

2) Unplug them and let them rot.

3) Just leave them plugged in.

Option 2) is the only sure way to lose money, so most people will go for either 1) or 3). In either case, the difficulty doesn't drop.

Add to that the vast variety of ASICs that are being sold right now and the fact that every couple of month there's a new device that is thrice as fast and only uses half of the power. Eventually, even a 2 TH/s might be nothing more than a very expensive paper weight. Judging by the pace the difficulty has been rising lately, that moment might come too soon for you.

If you want to know about where the difficulty is headed given the current and soon to be delivered technologies read the OP in this thread:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3008390

The maximum economical difficulty given the next generation technolgy is a lot more than "6 or 8 billion" - think 25 billion.

UNLESS the price of BTC goes up a lot and/or faster (smaller feature size) ASICS are produced then it will be even more.

This corresponds to a long term future network hash rate of about 180 PH/sec

Personally I don't think it will get that high, but we shall see.

Papajo:

Listen to me very carefully....

DO NOT BUY AN ASIC.  DO NOT BUY ANYTHING TO MINE BTC WITH.  Use GPUs to mine LiteCoin instead.  The BTC surge is over and you are coming in at least 6 months too late or more.

You now know all you need to know.

I'll PM you my wallet address so you can buy some LTC and send it to me for my consultation fee.  I'm doing you a favor here and you will see it if you follow my simple directions.

Well, technology is getting better and better. KnCminer and other company are coming out with fast hash ASIC and cheaper. So in other word the difficulty will still increase until a point where mining is so unprofitable to even recover electric bills.

And yes, some miner will call it a quit but with new and faster ASIC, you will likely not see the difficulty drop.

You don't get it, the difficulty will not stop increasing whatever people with average or mid grade salary do.
First, most of small miners don't stop mining even if their income is negative (higher electricity bill than income from bitcoins). They mine until death.
Then, even if the small miners stop because of high difficulty, it is too late to make any difference on difficulty because the total of their cumulated hashrate is totally insignificant.

Everyone tell you the truth : Mining is a very high risk investment. Most people loose money. Only a great knowledge of the bitcoin world can give you a chance to make a profit.

By all means, dont spend a satoshi on mining hardware, because you do not understand the basics yet. The salary of miners is irrelevant (and many of them have been mining for years since bitcoins traded for $1 and so are independently wealthy now because of it). What hashing speed their machines have, is irrelevant. No one is going to turn off their asics unless operating cost (electricity) exceeds income, and that efficiency doesnt scale. We are very, very far from that with current Asics  Difficulty decreasing, thats a joke. For the foreseeable future it will keep rising exponentially. If you think the current increase is steep, you havent seen anything yet, new generation asics are only just trickling in.

Mining hardware is priced per TH for the most part, buying more doesnt give you an advantage (in fact, it gives you a disadvantage. The more TH you buy, the more you compete with yourself). There is no advantage of scale in this game, except if you scale it to the level of building your own chips and miners, then suddenly everything changes. Well, even for that you are too late now and anything else is just a guaranteed waste of money.

Does anyone have a clue of what he is talking about?

I dont mean dissrespect... but one say one thing and the other says the absolute contrary!

one says the black arrow site is a scam an other says it has been discussed here that its trustworthy..

a guy says X company is prooven to be good the other one says they dont have even the technology to do it...

I am so confused...

Your English is just fine and certainly better than some so called native speakers can manage, when I talk about misapprehension I mean that you seem to think any future hardware will somehow be different, or have a different effect, to the new hardware being produced now. New hardware comes out, everyone has the same idea, the difficulty rises, everything settles back into the status quo at a much higher difficulty and chasing fewer and fewer coins as the reward is halved each four years or so. The more you "invest" the more you need to recover.

What may happen is that smaller players are squeezed out of mining process at some point by the running costs and then the hashing power becomes concentrated in fewer hands but that itself is self defeating for the bitcoin concept, if people don't have btc they can't use them and if they aren't using btc then it really isn't worth anything much. It has no intrinsic value, the only value is that imputed by the people who use it to trade with.

In the very, very unlikely scenario that difficulty drops, those who had been forced to switch off will simply switch back on again because the difficulty has dropped and mining became viable again for them. It's also the reason many won't switch off in the first place and continue to pour real wealth into mining, basically speculating that one day they can recoup that investment with the btc generated. It's a huge gamble and one that people really ought to be making with their eyes wide open.

I'm not negative towards bitcoin at all but a lot of the talk around mining btc and making a "profit" is borderline psychotic imho.

You might want to consider cex.io or securities instead. Remember to use a decent calculator which include the projected difficulty increase for calculating your ROI.

Wow, I mean, come on...

There's a reason they only accept bank transfers or WU.
Why do you think that is?

Also note that this price/performance ratio is not currently achieveable

I am not a native english speaker so maybe I didnt express myself well


I believe that most of the people that are mining (like 70 to 90% of them) are people with average or mid grade salary (in real life jobs) and they have average to low grade hardware (most of them usb sticks,5 GH/s machines and some of them 500GH/s machines tops...)


So for those people if the difficulty exceeds lets say 6 or 8 billion they sure will quit since their hardware wouldnt even get them a thusandth fraction of a bitcoin per day in that difficulty so if and when they quit the difficulty should drop down (since 70% or 90% of the miners dont mine anymore having as a result the average time for a block to be found to increase noticably)


So at that time it should be a good idea do get into mining with a strong piece of hardware thats what I was talking about mine for a few weeks and then when people keep on coming back you just wait for the difficulty to raise up again.

The numbers aren't extreme, they are quite simply what they are.

You seem to be labouring under a few misapprehensions here, the only time anyone is going to stop mining is when it starts to cost more to run the mining equipment than it ever has a chance to recover, in other words when the rate of difficulty increase exceeds the ability to generate a btc payout and that point is still some considerable way off. Even at that point some will still continue to mine as there is a somewhat pervasive, almost religious belief that btc is somehow going to be worth thousands or even millions of fiat one day, and it seems to be rife. And as you alluded to, people think if they just keep going everyone else will stop which is just madness.

The difficulty won't reduce in any meaningful way at this stage, it is only the rate of difficulty increase that will fluctuate.

Also what about this site here anyone heared of them?  https://cloudhashing.com/

Yes but does diffulty also lower down if noone mines or if it takes more than 10 minutes for a block to be found?


if so then when difficulty reaches such extreme numbers I suppose that most of the community will drop out from mining... thus forcing difficulty to low down again then attracting old miners to return difficulty raises again eventually people will drop out.. etc etc wouldnt it be a good idea to have a 2TH/s machine and "come in game" when difficulty raises so high making people to quit and gaining profit by mining while the difficulty level drops (because of less miners in the game) ?? and then take a brake again when people come back and raise the difficulty level?

this here is handy....

https://blockchain.info/stats

If you're looking for "profit" it's a very bad idea. The only people profiting are those selling the hardware. If you just want a new expensive hobby that gets you some tiny fractions of a btc along the way then go for it.

KnCMiner and Cointerra is good company which have already shipped many products, just avoid BFL at all cost.

Difficulty is adjusted every 2016 blocks. The intention is that it will take the entire network 10 minutes (on average) to find a block, so finding 2016 should take 14 days. If solving the next 2016 blocks takes only 7 days, difficulty will (roughly) double.


The earnings per GH/s are inversely proportional to the difficulty. Right now, it's at 189 millions. A 2 TH/s miner at a difficulty of 4.4 billions should generate the same income as a 86 GH/s miner at the current difficulty.

yes but 2 TH/s is 2 TH/s it would manage those changes until february or you think it couldnt?

also could anybody give me a link or tell me how difficulty is determined?

If I were you; I'd buy directly Bitcoins off an exchange of your choice with my money. It's more than certain that WHATEVER you're willing to buy will definitely won't be having ROI out of it, since in less than 6-8 months will be obsolete for mining. Speaking of, I really wonder who will be mining by then and at what hashspeeds. :S

:/ now I am confused... I just want to make an investmend but dont know whom to trust... I would appreciate greatly if a member of great reputation in this forum could give me some advice about this...

Whether this is a scam or not, I wouldn't buy any mining device that won't be available for four and a half months. There's no way of telling how high the difficulty will climb by then.

At the current rate, it's raising 30% every 11 days. That's 12 difficulty adjustments until February 24 (if they deliver on time), giving a difficulty of 4.4 billions.

Erm not sure if being sarcastic. It's being discussed on the forum and blackarrow was one of the few reputable fpga dealers in this forum.

yea but are they ALL scams I mean I dont want to advertise but there are many websites these ones claim to have worked for nvidia intel samsung etc (on their home page video) http://cointerra.com/product/terraminer-iv-2ths-networked-miner-january-batch/


isnt there any machine that can do 1th/s 2th/s etc?

yep, it´s not discussed in the forums which is a bad sign for itself.

watch out.

I think this is a scam. beware.

I am interested to a machine of that caliber http://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/store/prospero-x-3.html  its just that I dont know if I can trust the site... I found a few more that do TH/s at the same price more or less but again they are all using bank transfers only or wu... which would be ok by me if I only knew they are the real deal and trustworthy and wont run with my money away

knc miner.

Hello I am interested in investing 4 sto 6k usd for a machine capable of doing 1,2 TH/s of more I found some solutions but many of them were from china an all didnt have any creditcard or paypal as a payment method..


So I am afraid to purchase them


Do you know any trustworthy company that you have been also a client or a friend of yours?


Also do you consider it a good idea to purchase just one of this machines? (I dont have more budget) since they will be shipped in a few months by know and the difficulty is already doubled in self the past few months...


Thnx a lot for your help