Topic: Gods/Divinity is no way anyhow humanist (Read 967 times)

Not exactly. Entropy is slowed down here and there, not in general. God does this for His own purposes. He does it through the things that we call miracles... the real ones.

entropy slowed down?

so entropy was stronger beforehand and now since anomalies can be observed you think entropy slowed down or decreased in magnitude? any idea why?

Actually, they (anomalies) only show that entropy has been slowed down. Some of the slowing is in the form of temporary reversals.

you personally prove for yourselves the existence of divinity by observing anomalies in reality that disprove entropy

This is highly credible in my opinion, the intimate knowledge of God must be through personal/private revelation. That is why some people are so convinced about God, while others are not.

Thanks for this answer. Going to have a think about all of this. Very interesting.

One would have to determine that 13 billion years is a fact.

Consider erosion. If one says that erosion is offset by volcanoes and earthquakes creating new mountains, one might as well throw out all standard ideas of universe age. Why? Because upheavals in astronomy physics would exist in the same way, making all our understanding of what we see regarding the light coming, in to be incorrect illusions. Who knows the "universal volcanoes and earthquakes" that happened out there, with light patterns simply forming themselves into smooth patterns through something like Bernoulli's Principle.

Head out to the mountains sometime, and see the erosion... watch it at work in the rains and winds. The whole standard system of dating the earth to billions of years old is flawed. If present conditions were extended into the past, erosion would have almost made the whole earth into a globe with a thin layer of water surrounding all of it, volcanoes or no volcanoes.

BADecker

I have been reading some of your posts and have really enjoyed them. I want to understand this part...

This part I'm not sure what it says... I will try to rewrite in my simple english to match ... just so that I know that is what you were saying...

"Entropy shows us that the universe was created recently. How? By the complexity that it has. If the universe had been born by BB 13 billion years ago, entropy would have collapsed the complexity of it into a massless, shapeless "goo" by now. People would not exist because we are way too complex for any complexity that would exist in the universe by now."


The breakdown to randomness and disorder shows the universe was created recently.

Because it is to complex right now to have been created by big bang 13 billion years ago...

People are too complex to exist right now because the rate of break down to disorder would by now have reduced everything to shapeless goo?


Can you tell me how this rate of entrophy (is it a constant rate based on observable models or where does this rate of entropy come from?)....

Can you tell me how in 13 billion years it can be calculated and demonstrated it would have gone through a level of complexity that allowed for humans etc back to shapeless goo based on that entrophy rate.

I am not at all doubting what you say because I am sure you know a lot more about these things than myself but this part seems very interesting to me and seems a very important point I would like understand.

Maybe if you started to consider God enough in the right way, things will be maintained.

Abraham Pleads for Sodom:
The point is, if you want to see your area remain safe, be concerned about God, and get a bunch of your friends to be concerned about God.

There were probably at least thousands to hundreds of thousands of people in Sodom and Gomorrah. God would have spared them all for the sake of 10 righteous people.

Work on it, because being concerned for yourself without keeping God in the picture, won't save you.

nice to hear that from you, that means i can give a damn if somewhere outside of the place where i am, several million people die to a tsunami, or a nuclear bomb, or suffer from poverty like in all those muslim countries. thats just great
all i have to care about is my personal health, my personal wealth and god

how great.

 seals the argument!!

have not seen any explanation of non-believers that can actually stand!! there is always something to fix in the statement or arguments.. if a man can fully define the creator then the man has come under a revelation

it does not matter how tough you want to argue against the existence of God!! it won't change the fact God is God. I always say even among us gods are been found in the different field daily, we call them geniuses you can't even really explain how they became so!! 

All I know is nothing to lose if one believes in the existence of GOD

The point of God is that God is what is important, way beyond mankind. This fact is extremely important for mankind. Mankind would not exist except for God making man. Mankind is such a tiny speck of a chip off God, that without God activating the choices that man makes, man would be unable to cause activity with his choices.

God is all important to man.

i researched this world personally very carefully i am 100% sure its not just matter, energy, rays and organisms fighting for survival, but whats the point of god or how i say it divinity. what are we or i supposed to do, they are almighty they dont need anything if they are almighty. and if they are not almighty they are dangerous. only almighty gods/divinities are save to trust upon?

Damn that's freaky...
Don't want nothing inside me thanks

God's purpose isn't to appear in front of you. After all, His Spirit silently rides right along with yours in you. His purpose is to watch you in detail.

So how do we know what are His Words? God hasn't appeared in front of me to explain me this otherwise I would believe in him 100%

So heaven is somewhere in the universe for you?

The logic of God is greater than the logic of mankind. Isaiah 55:8,9:
You can't use the logic of man to understand the greatness of God. You must take God at His Word.

After all, the heavens - space and the stars - are up there. But we as people barely have been able to make it to the orbit of the moon. And even our satellites have barely made it to the edge of the Solar System.

You have identified the problem. To say it a different way...

Science has only the vague clues and hints left by nature.

The Bible is living, in the fact that there are the writings of the rabbi's that show the way the Hebrew people have interpreted Scripture all along.

The idea of interpreting the Exodus passage as meaning anything other than a standard day, is outside of what the people of Israel understood... which they understood as they did, because God wanted them to understand it that way.

Did God lie to the People of Israel? Did God want Israel to understand "day," when all along it was really "a great expanse of time?" We can tell by the recorded prophesies He made, and then how He responded when they tried to oppose God and His prophesies. Such is all over the Old Testament.

Now, here we are, trying to do the same thing. We are trying to suggest that God lied to the people, and is lying to us. The difference between now and then is, since Jesus did His work, the Law has been kept for Israel so that they don't have to do it perfectly any longer. And, non-Israel people are included in the blessings of Israel believers.

The Point? God is patient with all people. Bit His patience only lasts for a time with those who adamantly are against Him. The O.T. record shows this over and over, not only about Israel, but about other peoples, as well.

If that wasn't enough, then there are the writings of all the scientists when they do their direct and foundational work on the age of the universe. Their writings continually show that they don't know for sure. You of all people have seen this.

So, we have the Israel record vs. the science claims that they don't know for sure.

Yup but not as much as believers because once you talked to people like BADecker once or twice you stop trying to use logic to explain things about God ^^

There are plenty who question the existence of God

are there actually atheists in this group?

Yet could this not also be translated as follows?

For in six ages the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh age. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath age and made it holy.

Is such a translation impossible given what we know of the Hebrew word Yom? Clearly evening and morning must mean something other the earthly mornings and evenings if our sun was not made until the forth day/age.

Perhaps the third night for example is referring to something like this?

Life under the Ice – Life on Rogue Planets
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M7CkdB5z9PY

If life did thrive in the early universe and period of universal warmth and habitability then what seems likely to have followed would be a period of ice and darkness.

Are the erroneous hypotheses and interpretations of modern scientists who might be misinterpreting nature the only error we must consider? What about the hypotheses and interpretations of modern theologians who might be misunderstanding scripture?  

That's the big question, isn't it. What are we going to believe? The record of the Bible that we are finding out more and more to be actually historical in nature? The record of the "the evening and the morning" of each creation day? Or the hypotheses and interpretations of modern scientists who might be misinterpreting what the find in nature?

When we go on a date with a guy or a gal, how do we know what the person feels about us? Do we understand it easiest by their hints? Or is it much clearer when they say it right out?

Science tries to figure out all kinds of things by the clues and hints that nature leaves us. The Bible tells us straight out. Then, because we are so used to trying to ferret answers out of a stubbornly unyielding nature, we think that we need to apply such ferreting processes to the simple, straight-forward speaking of the Bible. And we mix ourselves all up when we try to do this.

To understand the clues and hints of nature in ways that contradict the Bible is foolish... especially when the Bible says things like:

Plants that lived for millenniums before there were sun, moon, and stars is actually more possible then is commonly believed. However, our understanding of the early period remains quite limited.

Did the genesis of life occur just after the Big Bang, almost 14 billion years ago?
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/176106-did-the-genesis-of-life-occur-just-after-the-big-bang-almost-14-billion-years-ago

The Bible is record but its purpose is to save our souls not provide us with unnecessary details of creation that we can eventually figure out on our own. The reason to question the 24 hour narrative is that our science increasingly calls that interpretation into question and other interpretations are possible.  

God can of course do anything but the question is what exactly did he do not what can he do. It is my opinion that the wisest course is to maintain an open mind on the exact timeframe of creation and the exact origins of life.

 

If you turn your back on the proof, there is no evidence only for you. Everybody who looks has evident proof.

Just read my previous post.  It is not possible to prove that he was a historical person.  There is no historical evidence.

You would only be proving that it isn't mythology.   

Moses and Israel in Egypt are written in Egyptian hieroglyphs. See Proof of Ancient Israel In Egyptian Hieroglyphics - Merneptah Stele - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJZ9QQv6gCk. Then look in the Youtube sidebar for more. And watch the fight as other people try to debunk the Egyptian proof.

The Genesis record says, "And there was evening, and there was morning..." for each day. Plants and animals don't live and grow in millenniums of straight day, or millenniums of straight night.

Would there be plants that lived for millenniums before there were sun, moon, and stars in the sky?

There are microbes that wander around in some fluid, touching each other now and again. Perhaps they contact each other in some ways. But do they even have a clue about us? Why would we think that God couldn't exist? So what if he is beyond us farther than we are beyond the microbes? Creating the universe in 6 days is something that He could do easily because, Wisdom is speaking:
"When the word 'day' is used with a specific number, it always has reference to a normal day:"

I suspect that one could stretch meanings and traditions and scientific happenings to imagine that the creation day isn't a standard near-24-hour-day. But why? The Bible is record. Science when used regarding the age of the universe is simply attempts backward extrapolation.

Prove it.

If the best you can come up with is the opinion of a bunch of atheist scholars who presuppose that Moses must have been mythical because of their atheist assumptions and the general paucity of ancient records 3000+ years ago  then of course I am going to reject your statement out of hand.

I would instead happily refer you to any group of observant Jews who would patiently explain the historical fact that they have accurately transmitted their holy texts without error across millennium.

Nothing at all but did God really say day? The Hebrew word for day is Yom and it has other meanings then a 24 hour period.

See:
http://www.oldearth.org/word_study_yom.htm

I take the position that when multiple meanings can be assigned to a single word the onus is on us using our reason to determine which interpretation is the correct one to the best of our ability.

Or, God said "day." And it was a "day" that was reasonably similar to our day - 24 hours.

Why believe that God said day? Because of the strength of Moses, the author/"editor" of the wording that used "day."

Who was Moses? He was at least a prince of Ancient Egypt, with access to historical records that we can only dream about. He did miracles that caused him to be revered by the people who followed him out of Egypt, so that they took it to heart to copy his words accurately. He talked to God face to face so that his face glowed with the glory of God.

Why is Moses important? Because the Dead Sea Scrolls and other writings show that the things of Moses were important enough to hand down accurately for thousands of years. The handing down wasn't done in simple ways like the writings of Plato and many other of the ancients. Rather, they were handed down with power... forcefully and accurately. This would only be done if they were important, because Moses had strength.

Further, there is the infilling of the Holy Spirit in those people who look for real truth. This is done today, in power.

None of us were there at the time of the beginning. Why make up our own guesswork story, when we have the writings of Power from Moses and others... a whole nation of others, who were reprimanded by God at times, just as it says in their writings?

God said "day." What's wrong with believing God?

It is in my opinion error to overly focus on one specific interpretation of fact when other possible interpretations of that fact could be true.

When we insist that our faith demands a specific fact when such an assertion is not actually necessary it we ground ourselves on an unstable foundation. If we error in such a false assertion we are forced to ignore ever mounting evidence that our interpretation does not in fact conform to reality. We turn into our famous resident flat earth advocate who must entertain ever more elaborate conspiracy theories to maintain his disbelief in reality.

For example take Genesis 1. It is often asserted as a foundation for young earth creationism. I personally think that this view may be an error.

Below is my personal take on Genesis one. I make no claims it is absolutely truth. However, in does my opinion restore harmony between the Biblical account and current scientific understanding.

Ages of Creation in Genesis

Day 1:  “Let there be light,”  = Big Bang
 "He separated the light from the darkness".  = Photon decoupling thought to occur at about 378,000 years after the Big Bang

Day 2:
“Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” = Between about 10 and 17 million years the universe's average temperature was suitable for liquid water (273 – 373K). It is possible that rocky planets or indeed life could have arisen briefly, since statistically a tiny part of the universe could have had different conditions from the rest, and gained warmth from the universe as a whole.

The habitable epoch of the early Universe
https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/~loeb/habitable.pdf

Day 3
"Let the land produce vegetation.” = Life did indeed form and thrive during this early habitable epoch.

Day 4

"And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years"" = First stars formed around 400 to 700 million years after the Big Bang.

"God made two great lights—the greater light to governthe day and the lesser light to governthe night." = Earth and moon formed approximately  4.54 billion years ago.

Day 5

"God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it." = Life created on earth perhaps first in deep sea vents on the floor of the ocean and then rapidly spreading throughout the ocean in various forms.

Day 6

And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds... Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” = God created land animals probably via spread out of the oceans and God created humans the creation which via our knowledge holds dominion over all other creatures in our corner of the universe.

Now I don't claim with certainty that this harmonization is in fact entirely correct, However, it is seems logically sound enough to me so I hold to it at the moment. The exact ordering of creation has no relevance to the foundation of my faith so I am perfectly willing to improve my understanding if in the future I become convinced that my understanding is in error.

The question isn't the gender of the Creator.

Entropy shows us that the universe was created recently. How? By the complexity that it has. If the universe had been born by BB 13 billion years ago, entropy would have collapsed the complexity of it into a massless, shapeless "goo" by now. People would not exist because we are way too complex for any complexity that would exist in the universe by now.

Your other points are simply questions that you don't really have a base for asking. Why? Because they don't fit what you believe to be true. Anybody can ask goofy, off-base questions.

Entropy shows that our space-time reality had a beginning not too far in the past.

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat your crap. You don't have a scientific leg to stand on.

A child born and raised in prison may never have seen the world outside the four walls of his cage.  Nevertheless he can still correctly imagine some aspects of that world based on what it is not. It's not a prison.

J.R.R. Tolkien discussed this with C.S. Lewis back when Lewis was an atheist. I found the account of that exchange fascinating.

C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien on the power of Fiction
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WoAE15gtEzg

You are putting the cart before the horse.  How do you know the universe was created by a guy?

Maybe the universe was always here in one form or another.  Have you considered that possibility?

Maybe we are part of a simulation done by some high school students from an alien civilization.

Maybe we are on the other side of a singularity of some black hole in another universe.

Have you considered all the possibilities?  Or Maybe you just picked the one that feels most comfortable to you?

As for the cause without time, sorry buddy, no time, no cause.  It is pretty self-explanatory.

Our reality is based in spacetime.  Just because your imagination takes you outside of it, it does not mean that your delusion is true.
It does not matter how many times you repeat it, or how many copies of a book you give away for free.

You know that this isn't what I am saying. Why do you know this? Because you know that there isn't any BB.

The Cause of the universe caused the component parts of time, which He later turned into time.

The Cause was not before. It simply was the Cause. Why wasn't the Cause before? Because time didn't exist, yet. Therefore the Cause was simply the Cause. Once the components of time existed... once they were brought into being... time existed after a fashion.

Wake up and stop letting your retarded engineer training keep you from recognizing the truth.

Your mistake is you are extending (space)time to an instance before the (space)time was created.

You are basically saying that time was not created at the Big Bang moment.

It's easy to understand that there is at least one cause without time. What is that cause? It is the cause that time was the effect of.

The one you exist in. Spacetime.


Effects and causes happen in spacetime.  Without spacetime, there are no causes or effects.

It is non-sensical to talk about effects or causes in the absence of time.

Causes happen before effects, in TIME.

For humans to understand what is cause and what is effect, does it matter? If a non-time-held cause causes a time-held existence, so what? A timeless cause can do this.

What is the temporal system you are talking about?

Why do you think that having no "before" indicates no cause? After all, time is part of what makes a time-free cause to be evident.

Perhaps you will understand that if the laws of the universe and physics are not settled, but are being set in place while an all-powerful Cause holds them in ways not present within them, that time can easily exist as caused by a Great First Cause.

Without time you will not be able to tell what is the cause and what is the effect.

Cause and effect can only exist in a temporal system. 

Without time there is no "before", so there is no cause.

Sleep on it.  Maybe one day you will understand it.

A cause can exist without time. Your argument is wrong at its start.

A cause cannot exist without time. The argument in the video is wrong at the 8 seconds mark.

Here's how simple it is to prove that God exists... and some things about Him.

God Proven in 1 Minute

https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_675386&feature=iv&src_vid=AG-IwEWo-zI&v=Y9pl-L0ckAE

There were never any human beings that were created. All were made.

God formed the first of us from the dust of the ground. Then He breathed a touch of Himself into the formation. The rest of us flow from the first, but are physically maintained from the ground, through what we eat, drink and breathe. The spark of our soul is sent from God into the us during conception, or shortly thereafter.

absolute divinity also contains in my oppinion the irrelavance of the time dimension since humans are no four dimensional beings, we can clearly say that humans are limited.

but some think that these limitations are natural and humans have to fight for survival.

Although the bible says we are made in God's image which literally means we share some of God's unique qualities like love, justice, wisdom and power but we are in no way created to a God because we are created with limitations and will always be dependent on God for guidance and direction.
Even when Emperor Mieji, Hirohito's grandfather in 1867 granted a constitution to his subject that stipulated that the emperor was " sacred and inviolable" yet, surprisingly to many Hirohito did not believe in his own divinity and never see himself as a god. The people generally believed that he was a god who possessed miraculous power that is why the wars Japan fought in the 20th century were waged in the emperor's name. but he had limitations and even said most of the wars fought were against his will but has to consent to his ministers showing that even if he is the king he does not have absolute power.
all of this points to the fact that human divinity is almost impossible.   

jes

we are created with limited reason, limited abilities. no human being is almighty with unlimited reason, so its pointless to strive for it.

Are we humans created with a tendency for corruption?

When God made people, He made them so well, that He thought it right to place a portion of Himself in them - their soul/spirit.

When people were deceived by their guardian angel who turned to evil, Satan, they allowed themselves to be corrupted.

You can't corrupt God. That is why God is here... to pull as many of His children out of corruption as possible. That's why God has allowed the universe to exist all these years since sin came into the world... to keep His Great Name from being tarnished by the evil that Satan spawned.

for those who didnt understood it so far, but i say it clearly after researching te subject carefully,

you can't expect humanist priority from God/Gods or Divinity itself,

for those humans are just NPC in a MMORPG they have created.

they have very good reasons for that, and if you look at africa/india you see that,
but on the other hand they give other good things, like power and human labour cheap as pennies.

ever thought about that?

regards