Author

Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 676. (Read 2032265 times)

legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1004
November 19, 2014, 11:29:13 PM
if memory serves I read somewhere that the cap on the block size was introduced due to DDoS attacks against the network using very large blocks, is it correct?
Due to the potential for such attacks.

That's a hypothesis, and one which is especially promoted by the 'wide open blocksize' crowd.

Satoshi didn't say why he did it in the commit comments as I recall, and I've not heard any credible person say that he explained it to them as it being due to DDoS concerns or anything else.

A perfectly viable hypothesis is that he knew that some other mechanism besides gross opening the blocksize would eventually be required due to scaling issues, and he thought that this setting would give enough headroom for Bitcoin to grow to a decent size before running into problems.

I like to think that, like myself, sidechains at least occurred to Satoshi early on in his ruminations about scaling modes.  Likely we'll never know though.  For my part I imagined the name 'child chains', but whatever.  Same diff.  They are just a logical sub-set of the Bitcoin solution one way or another.



Surprised you're evidently not familiar with this quote:

It can be phased in, like:

if (blocknumber > 115000)
    maxblocksize = largerlimit

It can start being in versions way ahead, so by the time it reaches that block number and goes into effect, the older versions that don't have it are already obsolete.

When we're near the cutoff block number, I can put an alert to old versions to make sure they know they have to upgrade.


Looks to me like he was just smoothing over some ruffled feathers since someone happened to notice his 1MB protocol setting.  Clever guy was the ol' Satosh.




Looked like a straight-forward, casual discussion to me. And Satoshi was always pretty direct about technical matters.
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
November 19, 2014, 11:23:51 PM
if memory serves I read somewhere that the cap on the block size was introduced due to DDoS attacks against the network using very large blocks, is it correct?
Due to the potential for such attacks.

That's a hypothesis, and one which is especially promoted by the 'wide open blocksize' crowd.

Satoshi didn't say why he did it in the commit comments as I recall, and I've not heard any credible person say that he explained it to them as it being due to DDoS concerns or anything else.

A perfectly viable hypothesis is that he knew that some other mechanism besides gross opening the blocksize would eventually be required due to scaling issues, and he thought that this setting would give enough headroom for Bitcoin to grow to a decent size before running into problems.

I like to think that, like myself, sidechains at least occurred to Satoshi early on in his ruminations about scaling modes.  Likely we'll never know though.  For my part I imagined the name 'child chains', but whatever.  Same diff.  They are just a logical sub-set of the Bitcoin solution one way or another.



Surprised you're evidently not familiar with this quote:

It can be phased in, like:

if (blocknumber > 115000)
    maxblocksize = largerlimit

It can start being in versions way ahead, so by the time it reaches that block number and goes into effect, the older versions that don't have it are already obsolete.

When we're near the cutoff block number, I can put an alert to old versions to make sure they know they have to upgrade.


Looks to me like he was just smoothing over some ruffled feathers since someone happened to notice his 1MB protocol setting.  Clever guy was the ol' Satosh.

legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
November 19, 2014, 11:17:31 PM

Nice try there Slick.  The link says nothing about Gavin's proposal (exponential growth or otherwise.)

The Bitcoin Foundation is a now irrelevant scam initially designed to separate fools and second-level scammers from their money.  They got an amusing number of dopes to the tune of $100k per head.  Of course some of those folks (esp, Kraples) nailed the rest of the community for many times that, but what can you do?

Most people recognize the BF for the gaggle of scammers, govt infiltrators, has-been devs, and pervs that it is.

Actually Murk always seemed like possibly an OK guy to me.  Maybe he could turn the thing around to some degree, but I rather doubt it at this point.

legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1004
November 19, 2014, 11:16:17 PM
if memory serves I read somewhere that the cap on the block size was introduced due to DDoS attacks against the network using very large blocks, is it correct?
Due to the potential for such attacks.

That's a hypothesis, and one which is especially promoted by the 'wide open blocksize' crowd.

Satoshi didn't say why he did it in the commit comments as I recall, and I've not heard any credible person say that he explained it to them as it being due to DDoS concerns or anything else.

A perfectly viable hypothesis is that he knew that some other mechanism besides gross opening the blocksize would eventually be required due to scaling issues, and he thought that this setting would give enough headroom for Bitcoin to grow to a decent size before running into problems.

I like to think that, like myself, sidechains at least occurred to Satoshi early on in his ruminations about scaling modes.  Likely we'll never know though.  For my part I imagined the name 'child chains', but whatever.  Same diff.  They are just a logical sub-set of the Bitcoin solution one way or another.



Surprised you're evidently not familiar with this quote:

It can be phased in, like:

if (blocknumber > 115000)
    maxblocksize = largerlimit

It can start being in versions way ahead, so by the time it reaches that block number and goes into effect, the older versions that don't have it are already obsolete.

When we're near the cutoff block number, I can put an alert to old versions to make sure they know they have to upgrade.


legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
November 19, 2014, 11:04:42 PM

Will there be a sidechain for micropayments? For example? Are there any proposals?

Damned if I know.

Seriously, yes I'm sure there will.  It is one of the areas of highest interest.  Part of this is because it was one of the early sales pitches of Bitcoin and more than a few 'tards bought it because few people seem to have a real grasp of numbers very much larger than the number of fingers on their hand.

The other thing which Bitcoin is really lacking is real-time behavior such that you could actually drink your coffee before it got cold waiting for your transaction to go through.  The problem is currently solved by giving someone else a bunch of Bitcoin that they will hold for you and they will pay off the vendor (in a manner not at all unlike the modern fiat banking system.)  That will also likely be addressed by some of the earlier sidechains, but in a more healthy way without counter-party risk.  This, of course, preserved Bitcoin as 'Sound Money' which is one of the many reasons I'm very excited about sidechains.

I'd suspect that both micropayments and real-time payments will be implemented in the outer layers by a token system backed by pegged Bitcoin.

legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1116
November 19, 2014, 10:12:56 PM

I'm sorry. Don't tase me bro. I was just asking a question. Do you mean my assumption that the core devs are working to somehow integrate sidechains is mistaken?
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 19, 2014, 10:09:59 PM
Is colored coins not introducing an additional layer of trust?
That depends on how you define "another layer of trust".

Colored coins are inherently used for tracking things outside the blockchain - that by definition means representing obligations a.k.a counterparty risk. Any technique that tracks obligations outside the blockchain will be tracking counterparty risk.

But none of that has nothing to do with the underlying technology used to create the token. Colored coins as tokens are no different from other bitcoins. A colored coin token doesn't all of a sudden become less trustworthy than a non-colored Bitcoin.

I define "another layer of trust" as trusting anything else but the Bitcoin network.

In that regard colored coins are less decentralized than sidechains.

I don't get sidechains. Will they just be alt-coins then?

Sidechains have two models. They are effectively an alt-chain that is supported by the BTC unit on a 1:1 peg.*

In the proposed concept, they use a SPV client to settle between chains. To secure the chain they would use merged-mining which potentially lets them access 100% of Bitcoin's mining power. They are not quite as secure though as they are not accepted by all nodes.

They can also use a less-decentralized model that rely on Oracles/Federations/Voting Pools.

*the unit is technically not the actual BTC but an image of it locked in a multi-sig type of way. the peg could also be a deterministic function but that defeats the purpose and effectively creates an altcoin.


Ah. Gracias Senior:) But what's the point?

Anonymous sidechain, instant transactions sidechains, decentralized asset registry sidechain, decentralized online copyright and licensing sidechain.

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1116
November 19, 2014, 10:05:14 PM
But sidechains
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 19, 2014, 10:04:51 PM
Is colored coins not introducing an additional layer of trust?
That depends on how you define "another layer of trust".

Colored coins are inherently used for tracking things outside the blockchain - that by definition means representing obligations a.k.a counterparty risk. Any technique that tracks obligations outside the blockchain will be tracking counterparty risk.

But none of that has nothing to do with the underlying technology used to create the token. Colored coins as tokens are no different from other bitcoins. A colored coin token doesn't all of a sudden become less trustworthy than a non-colored Bitcoin.

I define "another layer of trust" as trusting anything else but the Bitcoin network.

In that regard colored coins are less decentralized than sidechains.

I don't get sidechains. Will they just be alt-coins then?

Sidechains have two models. They are effectively an alt-chain that is supported by the BTC unit on a 1:1 peg.*

In the proposed concept, they use a SPV client to settle between chains. To secure the chain they would use merged-mining which potentially lets them access 100% of Bitcoin's mining power. They are not quite as secure though as they are not accepted by all nodes.

They can also use a less-decentralized model that rely on Oracles/Federations/Voting Pools.

*the unit is technically not the actual BTC but an image of it locked in a multi-sig type of way. the peg could also be a deterministic function but that defeats the purpose and effectively creates an altcoin.


Ah. Gracias Senior:) But what's the point?

there is no point if you believe, as i do, that Bitcoin is destined to become a global reserve currency.

Probably. But Gavin is accepting of the idea, if not somehow working on it. Do we want slick new features? Or something Huh

of what idea and working on what?
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1116
November 19, 2014, 10:03:56 PM
Is colored coins not introducing an additional layer of trust?
That depends on how you define "another layer of trust".

Colored coins are inherently used for tracking things outside the blockchain - that by definition means representing obligations a.k.a counterparty risk. Any technique that tracks obligations outside the blockchain will be tracking counterparty risk.

But none of that has nothing to do with the underlying technology used to create the token. Colored coins as tokens are no different from other bitcoins. A colored coin token doesn't all of a sudden become less trustworthy than a non-colored Bitcoin.

I define "another layer of trust" as trusting anything else but the Bitcoin network.

In that regard colored coins are less decentralized than sidechains.

I don't get sidechains. Will they just be alt-coins then?

Sidechains have two models. They are effectively an alt-chain that is supported by the BTC unit on a 1:1 peg.*

In the proposed concept, they use a SPV client to settle between chains. To secure the chain they would use merged-mining which potentially lets them access 100% of Bitcoin's mining power. They are not quite as secure though as they are not accepted by all nodes.

They can also use a less-decentralized model that rely on Oracles/Federations/Voting Pools.

*the unit is technically not the actual BTC but an image of it locked in a multi-sig type of way. the peg could also be a deterministic function but that defeats the purpose and effectively creates an altcoin.


Ah. Gracias Senior:) But what's the point?

there is no point if you believe, as i do, that Bitcoin is destined to become a global reserve currency.

Probably. But Gavin is accepting of the idea, if not somehow working on it. Do we want slick new features? Or something Huh
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 19, 2014, 10:01:25 PM
Is colored coins not introducing an additional layer of trust?
That depends on how you define "another layer of trust".

Colored coins are inherently used for tracking things outside the blockchain - that by definition means representing obligations a.k.a counterparty risk. Any technique that tracks obligations outside the blockchain will be tracking counterparty risk.

But none of that has nothing to do with the underlying technology used to create the token. Colored coins as tokens are no different from other bitcoins. A colored coin token doesn't all of a sudden become less trustworthy than a non-colored Bitcoin.

I define "another layer of trust" as trusting anything else but the Bitcoin network.

In that regard colored coins are less decentralized than sidechains.

I don't get sidechains. Will they just be alt-coins then?

Sidechains have two models. They are effectively an alt-chain that is supported by the BTC unit on a 1:1 peg.*

In the proposed concept, they use a SPV client to settle between chains. To secure the chain they would use merged-mining which potentially lets them access 100% of Bitcoin's mining power. They are not quite as secure though as they are not accepted by all nodes.

They can also use a less-decentralized model that rely on Oracles/Federations/Voting Pools.

*the unit is technically not the actual BTC but an image of it locked in a multi-sig type of way. the peg could also be a deterministic function but that defeats the purpose and effectively creates an altcoin.


Ah. Gracias Senior:) But what's the point?

there is no point if you believe, as i do, that Bitcoin is destined to become a global reserve currency.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1116
November 19, 2014, 09:59:07 PM
Is colored coins not introducing an additional layer of trust?
That depends on how you define "another layer of trust".

Colored coins are inherently used for tracking things outside the blockchain - that by definition means representing obligations a.k.a counterparty risk. Any technique that tracks obligations outside the blockchain will be tracking counterparty risk.

But none of that has nothing to do with the underlying technology used to create the token. Colored coins as tokens are no different from other bitcoins. A colored coin token doesn't all of a sudden become less trustworthy than a non-colored Bitcoin.

I define "another layer of trust" as trusting anything else but the Bitcoin network.

In that regard colored coins are less decentralized than sidechains.

I don't get sidechains. Will they just be alt-coins then?

Sidechains have two models. They are effectively an alt-chain that is supported by the BTC unit on a 1:1 peg.*

In the proposed concept, they use a SPV client to settle between chains. To secure the chain they would use merged-mining which potentially lets them access 100% of Bitcoin's mining power. They are not quite as secure though as they are not accepted by all nodes.

They can also use a less-decentralized model that rely on Oracles/Federations/Voting Pools.

*the unit is technically not the actual BTC but an image of it locked in a multi-sig type of way. the peg could also be a deterministic function but that defeats the purpose and effectively creates an altcoin.


Ah. Gracias Senior:) But what's the point?
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 19, 2014, 09:55:59 PM
Is colored coins not introducing an additional layer of trust?
That depends on how you define "another layer of trust".

Colored coins are inherently used for tracking things outside the blockchain - that by definition means representing obligations a.k.a counterparty risk. Any technique that tracks obligations outside the blockchain will be tracking counterparty risk.

But none of that has nothing to do with the underlying technology used to create the token. Colored coins as tokens are no different from other bitcoins. A colored coin token doesn't all of a sudden become less trustworthy than a non-colored Bitcoin.

I define "another layer of trust" as trusting anything else but the Bitcoin network.

In that regard colored coins are less decentralized than sidechains.

I don't get sidechains. Will they just be alt-coins then?

Sidechains have two models. They are effectively an alt-chain that is supported by the BTC unit on a 1:1 peg.*

In the proposed concept, they use a SPV client to settle between chains. To secure the chain they would use merged-mining which potentially lets them access 100% of Bitcoin's mining power. They are not quite as secure though as they are not accepted by all nodes.

They can also use a less-decentralized model that rely on Oracles/Federations/Voting Pools.

*the unit is technically not the actual BTC but an image of it locked in a multi-sig type of way. the peg could also be a deterministic function but that defeats the purpose and effectively creates an altcoin.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1116
November 19, 2014, 09:52:04 PM
...
I like to think that, like myself, sidechains at least occurred to Satoshi early on in his ruminations about scaling modes.  Likely we'll never know though.  For my part I imagined the name 'child chains', but whatever.  Same diff.  They are just a logical sub-set of the Bitcoin solution one way or another.

I actually had a similar thought experiment the other day.

Imagine that Satoshi had built sidechains out the box with Bitcoin.

Would we be worse off

or significantly ahead?

I think sidechains are the most natural extension possible to Bitcoin if they can execute what is in the white paper. Of course that remains to be seen but considering just about all of silicon valley invested in their 20 million seed round. My bet is they will.


Satoshi had some ideas about pruning.  Apparent that went nowhere, but it seems possible via some hieroglyphics by some of the more clever of the core devs that sidechains might have been evident as to be a better solution some time ago.

Satoshi also had a seemingly weird artifact where even with a small payment, the whole wad went went into the system and change came back out.  I remember back when I started paying attention some of the main active people at the time were kind of scratching their heads about what he might have been thinking then basically shrugged and said 'who knows?'  The thought occurred to me that between this mechanism and pruning there was potentially quite a bit of room for optimization to deal with some of the scaling issues (but not all.)  I actually like the whole idea of sidechains better anyway due to the advantages of flexibility and diversity in addition to their providing a much better scaling potential.



Will there be a sidechain for micropayments? For example? Are there any proposals?
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
November 19, 2014, 09:47:20 PM
I define "another layer of trust" as trusting anything else but the Bitcoin network.

In that regard colored coins are less decentralized than sidechains.
Now you're just making up inconsistent, dishonest bullshit.
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
November 19, 2014, 09:44:54 PM
...
I like to think that, like myself, sidechains at least occurred to Satoshi early on in his ruminations about scaling modes.  Likely we'll never know though.  For my part I imagined the name 'child chains', but whatever.  Same diff.  They are just a logical sub-set of the Bitcoin solution one way or another.

I actually had a similar thought experiment the other day.

Imagine that Satoshi had built sidechains out the box with Bitcoin.

Would we be worse off

or significantly ahead?

I think sidechains are the most natural extension possible to Bitcoin if they can execute what is in the white paper. Of course that remains to be seen but considering just about all of silicon valley invested in their 20 million seed round. My bet is they will.


Satoshi had some ideas about pruning.  Apparent that went nowhere, but it seems possible via some hieroglyphics by some of the more clever of the core devs that sidechains might have been evident as to be a better solution some time ago.

Satoshi also had a seemingly weird artifact where even with a small payment, the whole wad went went into the system and change came back out.  I remember back when I started paying attention some of the main active people at the time were kind of scratching their heads about what he might have been thinking then basically shrugged and said 'who knows?'  The thought occurred to me that between this mechanism and pruning there was potentially quite a bit of room for optimization to deal with some of the scaling issues (but not all.)  I actually like the whole idea of sidechains better anyway due to the advantages of flexibility and diversity in addition to their providing a much better scaling potential.

legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1116
November 19, 2014, 09:43:11 PM
Is colored coins not introducing an additional layer of trust?
That depends on how you define "another layer of trust".

Colored coins are inherently used for tracking things outside the blockchain - that by definition means representing obligations a.k.a counterparty risk. Any technique that tracks obligations outside the blockchain will be tracking counterparty risk.

But none of that has nothing to do with the underlying technology used to create the token. Colored coins as tokens are no different from other bitcoins. A colored coin token doesn't all of a sudden become less trustworthy than a non-colored Bitcoin.

I define "another layer of trust" as trusting anything else but the Bitcoin network.

In that regard colored coins are less decentralized than sidechains.

I don't get sidechains. Will they just be alt-coins then?
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 19, 2014, 09:40:28 PM
Is colored coins not introducing an additional layer of trust?
That depends on how you define "another layer of trust".

Colored coins are inherently used for tracking things outside the blockchain - that by definition means representing obligations a.k.a counterparty risk. Any technique that tracks obligations outside the blockchain will be tracking counterparty risk.

But none of that has nothing to do with the underlying technology used to create the token. Colored coins as tokens are no different from other bitcoins. A colored coin token doesn't all of a sudden become less trustworthy than a non-colored Bitcoin.

I define "another layer of trust" as trusting anything else but the Bitcoin network.

In that regard colored coins are less decentralized than sidechains.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1116
November 19, 2014, 09:39:30 PM
Is colored coins not introducing an additional layer of trust?
That depends on how you define "another layer of trust".

Colored coins are inherently used for tracking things outside the blockchain - that by definition means representing obligations a.k.a counterparty risk. Any technique that tracks obligations outside the blockchain will be tracking counterparty risk.

But none of that has nothing to do with the underlying technology used to create the token. Colored coins as tokens are no different from other bitcoins. A colored coin token doesn't all of a sudden become less trustworthy than a non-colored Bitcoin.

How much bitoshis will it take to create a coloured token. Is there a minimum? Will it burn them as bits forever?
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