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Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 679. (Read 2032265 times)

hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 19, 2014, 06:04:45 PM

If I have to be honest I still can't quite grasp cypher arguments, I feel there's
something but at the same time I didn't find his narrative rigorously enough.
It seems more gut feeling rather than rational arguments.

E.g. the link between the ledger and the token that spvp should break if implemented:
If we consider 1:1 time invariant 2wp, for a transitive property I'd say that scBTC is
linked to the ledger in the same way btc is. At the same time I somewhat know that sc has
to be secured by merge mining and here come into play miner incentive you're referring to.

Having said what's your position on bitcoin current issues? Just to name a few:
scalability, tx confermation time, lack of incentive to run a node. Do you think
We can live with them? If not what are the needed solutions and how do you
think to deploy those?

For every cent miners earn mining Bitcoin on a SideChain they insulate themselves from the disruption in the inevitable 50% revenue drop, and for every bit of insulation we move closer to Kevin Dowd's inevitable Bitcoin prediction.

Sidechains do not generate more demand for transactions, they simply accomodate those transactions so that they can be held on-chain. It appears you suggest it is better for transactions to occur off-chain? That miners incentive should be limited to only what can be accomodated on the mainchain?

What ratio do you propose should be held on/off so as to not allow miners to "insulate themselves from the disruption in the inevitable 50% revenue drop".

I think 100% of Bitcoin exchanges should happened on a single Bitcoin ledger. But in reality I don't know.

If you prefer you can think of federated SC's as as on the Bitcoin blockchain, and there is no limit for those.

As ZB has pointed out, the exchanges do happen on the same, single Bitcoin ledger. That ledger is merely fragmented into different chains. The value is distributed on different chains but is all, in theory, compounded into the same network/ledger.

The problem I'd like for you to address re: federated SC's is they have the same consequences of changing the economic incentives for miners. Yes that change does not happen on the protocol level but it is IMO at least equally concerning. In that scenario, the incentives are not adopting a different model but are effectively "hijacked" by the federation/oracles/OT. This has the potential to considerably decrease the miners incentive to protect the network, especially compounded with the block subsidy drop.

If we expect miners to depend on transactions fees in the future then should we not make sure these transactions are not driven away to schemes that are out of their reach?
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
November 19, 2014, 06:02:37 PM
If a SideChain can do more tps, that would be an incentive.
The only reason the main chain can't do as many tps as a side chain is because there's an artificial production quota written into the protocol.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
November 19, 2014, 05:59:41 PM
For every cent miners earn mining Bitcoin on a SideChain they insulate themselves from the disruption in the inevitable 50% revenue drop, and for cent of insulation we move closer to Kevin Dowd's inevitable prediction.
Miners don't need to mine sidechains in order to gain more revenue - it's just as viable to mine more transactions on the main chain.

If there's a demand for 1000 tps, the main chain should be allowed to satisfy that demand.

This gives the miners the revenue they need to wean themselves away from dependence on the block subsidy.
Miners must mine where ever the value is,  it's not about where they get there revenue it's about how they get there Bitcoin, that is what protects the Bitcoin network.

SC's alow new mining incentives off the Bitcoin blockchain, transaction fees are inconsequential at the moment,  but are intended to reduce to the marginal cost to secure the network in time.  

Is this scenario possible, where miners by charging higher fees on the Bitcoin Blockchain, encourage users to use a better SideChaine for faster more cost effective transactions?

When that is 100% impossible my concerns will be put to rest. And Kevin Dowd can eat humble pie.

What incentive is there for the miners to encourage users to use a different chain for transactions? Serious question.


If a SideChain can do more tps, that would be an incentive.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 19, 2014, 05:54:55 PM
Is there any ETA for the first attempt to plug a sidechain?

Here is some non-official roadmap pulled from an interview with Coindesk
Quote
"There’s a lot of education that needs to occur, there’s a lot of communication, and we look forward to the coming months where we’re going to be publishing more details, more technical details, sample code on GitHub, and allow people to start experimenting with various parts of the technology stack," Hill said.

...

As for what that means in the short term, Back and Hill were less clear. Back indicated that sidechains are up and running on an internal test network and that Blockstream is currently in talks with an undisclosed number of potential pilot customers.

Currently, Blockstream is selecting co-development partners who are provided with early access to some of the development. This allows them to collaborate on making sure that the use cases – and the technology that supports them – accomplish their goals, Hill said.

...

"Right now that progress is deploying and interacting with the community, showcasing how sidechains and bitcoin and this ecosystem can evolve," he said. "We have some strategic objectives that we think are important that are not being done about the ecosystem."

Blockstream, Hill added, hopes to publicize potential use cases of its technology, but this is likely to take some time. He went on to estimate that the sidechains project would likely be open to the general public during the first half of 2015.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
November 19, 2014, 05:54:42 PM

If I have to be honest I still can't quite grasp cypher arguments, I feel there's
something but at the same time I didn't find his narrative rigorously enough.
It seems more gut feeling rather than rational arguments.

E.g. the link between the ledger and the token that spvp should break if implemented:
If we consider 1:1 time invariant 2wp, for a transitive property I'd say that scBTC is
linked to the ledger in the same way btc is. At the same time I somewhat know that sc has
to be secured by merge mining and here come into play miner incentive you're referring to.

Having said what's your position on bitcoin current issues? Just to name a few:
scalability, tx confermation time, lack of incentive to run a node. Do you think
We can live with them? If not what are the needed solutions and how do you
think to deploy those?

For every cent miners earn mining Bitcoin on a SideChain they insulate themselves from the disruption in the inevitable 50% revenue drop, and for every bit of insulation we move closer to Kevin Dowd's inevitable Bitcoin prediction.

Sidechains do not generate more demand for transactions, they simply accomodate those transactions so that they can be held on-chain. It appears you suggest it is better for transactions to occur off-chain? That miners incentive should be limited to only what can be accomodated on the mainchain?

What ratio do you propose should be held on/off so as to not allow miners to "insulate themselves from the disruption in the inevitable 50% revenue drop".

I think 100% of Bitcoin exchanges should happened on a single Bitcoin ledger. But in reality I don't know.

If you prefer you can think of federated SC's as as on the Bitcoin blockchain, and there is no limit for those.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 19, 2014, 05:51:44 PM
For every cent miners earn mining Bitcoin on a SideChain they insulate themselves from the disruption in the inevitable 50% revenue drop, and for cent of insulation we move closer to Kevin Dowd's inevitable prediction.
Miners don't need to mine sidechains in order to gain more revenue - it's just as viable to mine more transactions on the main chain.

If there's a demand for 1000 tps, the main chain should be allowed to satisfy that demand.

This gives the miners the revenue they need to wean themselves away from dependence on the block subsidy.
Miners must mine where ever the value is,  it's not about where they get there revenue it's about how they get there Bitcoin, that is what protects the Bitcoin network.

SC's alow new mining incentives off the Bitcoin blockchain, transaction fees are inconsequential at the moment,  but are intended to reduce to the marginal cost to secure the network in time.  

Is this scenario possible, where miners by charging higher fees on the Bitcoin Blockchain, encourage users to use a better SideChaine for faster more cost effective transactions?

When that is 100% impossible my concerns will be put to rest. And Kevin Dowd can eat humble pie.

What incentive is there for the miners to encourage users to use a different chain for transactions? Serious question.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 19, 2014, 05:42:30 PM

If I have to be honest I still can't quite grasp cypher arguments, I feel there's
something but at the same time I didn't find his narrative rigorously enough.
It seems more gut feeling rather than rational arguments.

E.g. the link between the ledger and the token that spvp should break if implemented:
If we consider 1:1 time invariant 2wp, for a transitive property I'd say that scBTC is
linked to the ledger in the same way btc is. At the same time I somewhat know that sc has
to be secured by merge mining and here come into play miner incentive you're referring to.

Having said what's your position on bitcoin current issues? Just to name a few:
scalability, tx confermation time, lack of incentive to run a node. Do you think
We can live with them? If not what are the needed solutions and how do you
think to deploy those?

For every cent miners earn mining Bitcoin on a SideChain they insulate themselves from the disruption in the inevitable 50% revenue drop, and for every bit of insulation we move closer to Kevin Dowd's inevitable Bitcoin prediction.

Sidechains do not generate more demand for transactions, they simply accomodate those transactions so that they can be held on-chain. It appears you suggest it is better for transactions to occur off-chain? That miners incentive should be limited to only what can be accomodated on the mainchain?

What ratio do you propose should be held on/off so as to not allow miners to "insulate themselves from the disruption in the inevitable 50% revenue drop".
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
November 19, 2014, 05:40:41 PM
For every cent miners earn mining Bitcoin on a SideChain they insulate themselves from the disruption in the inevitable 50% revenue drop, and for cent of insulation we move closer to Kevin Dowd's inevitable prediction.
Miners don't need to mine sidechains in order to gain more revenue - it's just as viable to mine more transactions on the main chain.

If there's a demand for 1000 tps, the main chain should be allowed to satisfy that demand.

This gives the miners the revenue they need to wean themselves away from dependence on the block subsidy.
Miners must mine where ever the value is,  it's not about where they get there revenue it's about how they get there Bitcoin, that is what protects the Bitcoin network.

SC's alow new mining incentives off the Bitcoin blockchain, transaction fees are inconsequential at the moment,  but are intended to reduce to the marginal cost to secure the network in time.  

Is this scenario possible, where miners by charging higher fees on the Bitcoin Blockchain, encourage users to use a better SideChaine for faster more cost effective transactions?

When that is 100% impossible my concerns will be put to rest. And Kevin Dowd can eat humble pie.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 19, 2014, 05:16:36 PM
we are on our way boys to consuming the Forex fiat currency market:

“By making bitcoins a recognized payment instrument, Finland has pushed it towards being regarded as a formal currency," said Asquith.

http://www.coindesk.com/finland-classifies-bitcoin-vat-exempt-financial-service/

let's not fuck it up, please.

Step 1: solidarity with Gavin once he formally presents a solution to the block size limit.


keep you eyes on the far right column:



from Reddit comments.  think nom, nom, nom:

[–]Gayspy 1 point 14 minutes ago

Yeah! You can exchange Bitcoin to euros and vice versa in Finland without paying 24% extra for the government in taxes each time you do! Who would have thought.



legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 19, 2014, 05:13:49 PM
we are on our way boys to consuming the Forex fiat currency market:

“By making bitcoins a recognized payment instrument, Finland has pushed it towards being regarded as a formal currency," said Asquith.

http://www.coindesk.com/finland-classifies-bitcoin-vat-exempt-financial-service/

let's not fuck it up, please.

Step 1: solidarity with Gavin once he formally presents a solution to the block size limit.


keep you eyes on the far right column:

legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
November 19, 2014, 05:08:20 PM
Is there any ETA for the first attempt to plug a sidechain?
The first plug for a SideChain happened on day 2 after Blocksteeam published the paper.

What's the ETA to inject the protocol change is the question?
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1006
100 satoshis -> ISO code
November 19, 2014, 05:07:49 PM
we are on our way boys to consuming the Forex fiat currency market:

“By making bitcoins a recognized payment instrument, Finland has pushed it towards being regarded as a formal currency," said Asquith.

http://www.coindesk.com/finland-classifies-bitcoin-vat-exempt-financial-service/

let's not fuck it up, please.

Step 1: solidarity with Gavin once he formally presents a solution to the block size limit.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
November 19, 2014, 05:06:55 PM
For every cent miners earn mining Bitcoin on a SideChain they insulate themselves from the disruption in the inevitable 50% revenue drop, and for cent of insulation we move closer to Kevin Dowd's inevitable prediction.
Miners don't need to mine sidechains in order to gain more revenue - it's just as viable to mine more transactions on the main chain.

If there's a demand for 1000 tps, the main chain should be allowed to satisfy that demand.

This gives the miners the revenue they need to wean themselves away from dependence on the block subsidy.
legendary
Activity: 861
Merit: 1010
November 19, 2014, 05:04:43 PM
Is there any ETA for the first attempt to plug a sidechain?
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
November 19, 2014, 05:02:19 PM

If I have to be honest I still can't quite grasp cypher arguments, I feel there's
something but at the same time I didn't find his narrative rigorously enough.
It seems more gut feeling rather than rational arguments.

E.g. the link between the ledger and the token that spvp should break if implemented:
If we consider 1:1 time invariant 2wp, for a transitive property I'd say that scBTC is
linked to the ledger in the same way btc is. At the same time I somewhat know that sc has
to be secured by merge mining and here come into play miner incentive you're referring to.

Having said what's your position on bitcoin current issues? Just to name a few:
scalability, tx confermation time, lack of incentive to run a node. Do you think
We can live with them? If not what are the needed solutions and how do you
think to deploy those?

Scalability as in block size limit.  
Transaction fees.
The other issues are non issues in relation to the above. (I'd feel progress is happening if we just altered 2 lines of code over the next 3 years while we debated the issue)

http://www.freebanking.org/2014/11/18/bitcoin-will-bite-the-dust/ read this.

Where Kevin Dowd's analysis falls short is he doesn't account for the economics in the block halving. The block halving wrestles power away from miners.

I've outlined how miners in cooperation with the proposed change to the protocol can avoid the declining revenue in the halving.

For every cent miners earn mining Bitcoin on a SideChain they insulate themselves from the disruption in the inevitable 50% revenue drop, and for every bit of insulation we move closer to Kevin Dowd's inevitable Bitcoin prediction.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 19, 2014, 04:58:25 PM
we are on our way boys to consuming the Forex fiat currency market:

“By making bitcoins a recognized payment instrument, Finland has pushed it towards being regarded as a formal currency," said Asquith.

http://www.coindesk.com/finland-classifies-bitcoin-vat-exempt-financial-service/

let's not fuck it up, please.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1008
November 19, 2014, 04:27:11 PM
The sidechain would need Bitcoin in order to survive. It can't kill the hand that feeds it.

True up to a point.
After which it doesn't.

it depends on what will substitute bitcoin, after such a "point".
if it's a better bitcoin I'm all for it. I guess we won't know
until it will happen.

if you have understood cypers arguments it doesn't have to be a better Bitcoin, and if your understood the adjustment in the incentive dynamic one can make it look better for the user and the miners, however there are tradeoffs, many here will dismiss them as inconsequential, but the biggest one for me is environmental impact on running this decentralize world, and this conversation hasn't even filtered through to that level yet or (mainly the expertise aren't here, and most Liberians like to marginalize it to the outskirts of the free market.  

If I have to be honest I still can't quite grasp cypher arguments, I feel there's
something but at the same time I didn't find his narrative rigorously enough.
It seems more gut feeling rather than rational arguments.

E.g. the link between the ledger and the token that spvp should break if implemented:
If we consider 1:1 time invariant 2wp, for a transitive property I'd say that scBTC is
linked to the ledger in the same way btc is. At the same time I somewhat know that sc has
to be secured by merge mining and here come into play miner incentive you're referring to.

Having said what's your position on bitcoin current issues? Just to name a few:
scalability, tx confermation time, lack of incentive to run a node. Do you think
We can live with them? If not what are the needed solutions and how do you
think to deploy those?
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
November 19, 2014, 04:08:22 PM
I was looking into it to see if I could use it for solo mining, I believe it is on par as a node, and as you point out probably better and continued support seems inevitable, but if I recall correctly I was looking at just a development road map and it didn't seem like there was demand to support the mining functionality, going forward I felt it wasn't worth risking if a block didn't propagate so I am not sure it will be used for mining.  

Ah.  Thanks for your clarifications.  Mining support has been implemented for quite some time now.  I'd have to check the commit logs to be certain, but I want to say that mining support went in around the end of June, 4 to 5 months ago.  There is nothing on the development road map for it because there isn't anything else to do for it currently since it's complete.

It's a fairly simple matter to find out if a block will propagate by using BIP0023 block proposals since it checks if a block is valid (excepting the proof of work), before you ever start working on finding the nonce.  In fact, if mining infrastructures started to migrate to checking consensus against multiple implementations in general (or even multiple versions of Bitcoin Core itself), it would be beneficial to the miners and the entire ecosystem in the long run since even accidental forks between Bitcoin Core versions (as has already happened in the past) could be detected and handled gracefully.

Thanks for this, I recall there was support for mining, my question was about implementation.  Our friend was looking for something to do to contribute.  How much hashrate is implemented, what miners use it?
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
November 19, 2014, 03:46:09 PM
this is really encouraging.  we owe it to ourselves to further investigate the capabilities of btcd as an alternative to Core.
It's certainly a better platform to develop against.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 19, 2014, 03:26:29 PM
I was looking into it to see if I could use it for solo mining, I believe it is on par as a node, and as you point out probably better and continued support seems inevitable, but if I recall correctly I was looking at just a development road map and it didn't seem like there was demand to support the mining functionality, going forward I felt it wasn't worth risking if a block didn't propagate so I am not sure it will be used for mining.  

Ah.  Thanks for your clarifications.  Mining support has been implemented for quite some time now.  I'd have to check the commit logs to be certain, but I want to say that mining support went in around the end of June, 4 to 5 months ago.  There is nothing on the development road map for it because there isn't anything else to do for it currently since it's complete.

It's a fairly simple matter to find out if a block will propagate by using BIP0032 block proposals since it checks if a block is valid (excepting the proof of work), before you ever start working on finding the nonce.  In fact, if mining infrastructures started to migrate to checking consensus against multiple implementations in general (or even multiple versions of Bitcoin Core itself), it would be beneficial to the miners and the entire ecosystem in the long run since even accidental forks between Bitcoin Core versions (as has already happened in the past) could be detected and handled gracefully.



this is really encouraging.  we owe it to ourselves to further investigate the capabilities of btcd as an alternative to Core.
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