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Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 681. (Read 2032265 times)

hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 19, 2014, 01:18:39 PM
More good stuff from Back :

Quote
"There’s a lot of education that needs to occur, there’s a lot of communication, and we look forward to the coming months where we’re going to be publishing more details, more technical details, sample code on GitHub, and allow people to start experimenting with various parts of the technology stack," Hill said.

The CEO said that Blockstream will strive to illustrate how sidechains can be used to empower entrepreneurial development, and that for now, this means educating developers through workshops and co-development.

Hill

Quote
"The entire project was born out of the open-source community, so the idea that we would do anything that isn’t open source or isn’t decentralized or open permission-less innovation is anti-bitcoin"

bu bbbu bbbuttttt Blockstream are the only one that profit from sidechains, right?

where were those 2 guys and you back in 2011 when the real war was being fought from 32 down to 1.98?  my whole argument and vision at the time was that Bitcoin was the ultimate SOV and sound money which had the potential to replace gold.  hence, the birth of this thread in 8/11 just before the peak in gold @1923 and my constant and incessant evangelizing of Bitcoin.  which yes, happens to rival and probably exceed in terms of hours many of the devs who have worked on Bitcoin.  Bitcoin is a community if you hadn't noticed that involves all types, not just devs.  we've all worked towards its success as much as you would like us to think otherwise.

now Blockstream wants to change Bitcoin into a WoW trading platform which will dilute the money function which in my opinion is its strongest potential to change the fiat world.  the genesis block even indirectly references this in Satoshi's statement as he did many times in his posts.

and all it takes is for us to "keep our eye on the ball" as to what brought us to where we are today.

With ZB we're now up to at least 5 people who have debunked that claim of yours. Maybe you'd like to work on your arguments.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 19, 2014, 01:16:51 PM
where were those 2 guys and you back in 2011 when the real war was being fought from 32 down to 1.98?  my whole argument and vision at the time was that Bitcoin was the ultimate SOV and sound money which had the potential to replace gold.  hence, the birth of this thread in 8/11 just before the peak in gold @1923 and my constant and incessant evangelizing of Bitcoin.  which yes, happens to rival and probably exceed in terms of hours many of the devs who have worked on Bitcoin.  Bitcoin is a community if you hadn't noticed that involves all types, not just devs.  we've all worked towards its success as much as you would like us to think otherwise.

now Blockstream wants to change Bitcoin into a WoW trading platform which will dilute the money function which in my opinion is its strongest potential to change the fiat world.  the genesis block even indirectly references this in Satoshi's statement as he did many times in his posts.

and all it takes is for us to "keep our eye on the ball" as to what brought us to where we are today.

Oh please.  Cheesy

You make it sound as if you are the reason for Bitcoin's success.

I don't see you name in the Bitcoin's whitepaper. I do see Adam Back's though.

At the end of the day, these guys will be responsible for having develop technology that fosters innovations and the creation of companies, industries around Bitcoin while you'll remain cypherdoc, a username with a popular thread on a forum.
legendary
Activity: 861
Merit: 1010
November 19, 2014, 01:10:05 PM
What are the other implementations of the protocol besides Bitcoin Core available right now?
btcd is the most complete in that it supports new block generation.

libbitcoin and bitcoinj are probably on the next tier.

Bits of Proof would have made it to this list had it not been successfully executed.
Thanks, and how can we monitor and foster the adoption of these alternatives?
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
November 19, 2014, 01:06:28 PM
What are the other implementations of the protocol besides Bitcoin Core available right now?
btcd is the most complete in that it supports new block generation.

libbitcoin and bitcoinj are probably on the next tier.

Bits of Proof would have made it to this list had it not been successfully executed.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
November 19, 2014, 01:02:37 PM
The sidechain would need Bitcoin in order to survive. It can't kill the hand that feeds it.

True up to a point.
After which it doesn't.

it depends on what will substitute bitcoin, after such a "point".
if it's a better bitcoin I'm all for it. I guess we won't know
until it will happen.

if you have understood cypers arguments it doesn't have to be a better Bitcoin, and if your understood the adjustment in the incentive dynamic one can make it look better for the user and the miners, however there are tradeoffs, many here will dismiss them as inconsequential, but the biggest one for me is environmental impact on running this decentralize world, and this conversation hasn't even filtered through to that level yet or (mainly the expertise aren't here, and most Liberians like to marginalize it to the outskirts of the free market.  
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 19, 2014, 01:00:43 PM
More good stuff from Back :

Quote
"There’s a lot of education that needs to occur, there’s a lot of communication, and we look forward to the coming months where we’re going to be publishing more details, more technical details, sample code on GitHub, and allow people to start experimenting with various parts of the technology stack," Hill said.

The CEO said that Blockstream will strive to illustrate how sidechains can be used to empower entrepreneurial development, and that for now, this means educating developers through workshops and co-development.

Hill

Quote
"The entire project was born out of the open-source community, so the idea that we would do anything that isn’t open source or isn’t decentralized or open permission-less innovation is anti-bitcoin"

bu bbbu bbbuttttt Blockstream are the only one that profit from sidechains, right?

where were those 2 guys and you back in 2011 when the real war was being fought from 32 down to 1.98?  my whole argument and vision at the time was that Bitcoin was the ultimate SOV and sound money which had the potential to replace gold.  hence, the birth of this thread in 8/11 just before the peak in gold @1923 and my constant and incessant evangelizing of Bitcoin.  which yes, happens to rival and probably exceed in terms of hours many of the devs who have worked on Bitcoin.  Bitcoin is a community if you hadn't noticed that involves all types, not just devs.  we've all worked towards its success as much as you would like us to think otherwise.

now Blockstream wants to change Bitcoin into a WoW trading platform which will dilute the money function which in my opinion is its strongest potential to change the fiat world.  the genesis block even indirectly references this in Satoshi's statement as he did many times in his posts.

and all it takes is for us to "keep our eye on the ball" as to what brought us to where we are today.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 19, 2014, 12:51:54 PM
And what if they step down?

Should they also stop committing code to Bitcoin?

You want to save Bitcoin from a ghost by proposing that 40% of its core developers & 3 top commiters stop working on it.

Yeah, I'm sure that will play out well for the development of Bitcoin's own code.
You've actually hit on a separate, but related issue.

There is a subset of toxic people and petty tyrants among the core developers who believe that what they do defines Bitcoin and wish to be the eternal gatekeepers of what is and is not allowed. They can't actually earn that position by virtue of being superior software engineers, so they keep it by resorting to FUD and other underhanded tactics any time some other developers try to get involved.

There's an extremely long list of people who would have tried to step up and participate, but have been effectively shut out by that cartel.

Bitcoin will be in a much stronger and more secure position once Bitcoin Core is deprecated, or is at least relegated to a minority position on the network. Part of the reason will be that the consensus will be derived from software implementations with a better design and higher code quality, and part of the reason will be because of limiting the effect of toxic developers so that more people will be willing to contribute.

PS: I still haven't forgotten that you never bothered to justify your "less decentralized" claim about colored coins.

who you talking about?

Jeff Garzik, gmaxwell and Lukejr turned this into an issue by moving to strike Jon Matonis and Roger Ver, two established Bitcoin community members who present themselves competently and articulately, based solely on their political ideas. Now, instead of discussing the topic of strategy and purpose for the Press Center, jgarzik wants to silence any debate. I think that determining the press strategy is very important.
No, the problem (in this case) is not their political ideas.

The problem is that they project their political ideas on Bitcoin, with things such as representing Bitcoin as being a tool used to bring about anarchy. Matonis, at least, seems to be encouraging people to break the law almost every time he talks about Bitcoin.
While I did include Roger Ver in my original objection, it was pointed out that he has (at least lately) kept his politics separate in public - so I've limited my objection in this reason to just Matonis.

The general objection against Roger Ver is that he has a criminal history. And not just some debatable crime (eg, drug-related or statutory), but selling explosives. For all I know, maybe he was just selling fireworks - or even wrongly accused and railroaded. However, the media doesn't care about the truth: this is a tool they can simply say "Bitcoin spokesman Roger Ver, who holds a conviction for selling explosives to terrorists, blah blah blah". Maybe they can say it regardless of who we put up as a press contact, but having him listed will serve to re-affirm such detraction when it happens.

He didn't have the brass to post it publicly of course, he's a cowardly weasel through and through

In the interest of being a tough guy like you, here is the rest of our PM discussion which you must have missed in your posting:

Quote
Wait, so you lost the vote, cancelled the vote and are now telling me that you lost it but BY LESS THAN I CLAIMED?
Do you believe that everyone in the world who doesn't agree with you is just one person? I'm getting that impression.

No. I'm saying that you either can't count or you were outright lying.  And I'm letting you know in private because I'm kind enough to not point our your innumeracy-or-dishonesty in public even though you've been rather uncivil towards me.

Quote
The you accuse me from gathering community input (Wow!), which is what y'all said was needed.
Have you no shame?
Gathering input is good— but what you posted wasn't a genuine effort to get opinions it was a heavily biased rabel-rousing rant which has had the effect of causing people to make threats of violence against me. And if I'm uncharitable I might conclude from the fact that you never mentioned it in the main discussion that you intended to keep it hidden so that your incorrect claims would go unchallenged... or perhaps you just didn't think to mention it, it happens... but still stinks.

to which you replied:

GO fuck yourself you little weasel. You have no shame, no integrity and no balls. You can't even handle a public discussion without getting some sycophant to shut it down when you're losing.

FUCK YOU and suck on a cactus.


I honestly believed that if it were actually a vote the position I was recommending would have eventually won out, the vote-stacking you were conducting only goes so far— as I said in the discussion, the only criteria I've seen I've seen suggested that would have kept Bruce Wagner, Nefario, or even Pirate40 off is the one of not including people where there was genuine concern— all hard large basis of public support. That this has been an enormous time and emotion suck, and it had reached the point where aantonop was name calling people who didn't agree with him, along with threats and other embarrassing responses... it probably was best to kill it mercifully.

hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 19, 2014, 12:45:14 PM

What you should not forget is SPVP is open source and so are the platforms Blockstream will develop.


its a open source path, once taken could lead to the dark side, and with out the right incentive structure in place may be impossible to turn back.

I'm of the opinion that different incentive model is better than lost incentives
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
November 19, 2014, 12:39:33 PM

What you should not forget is SPVP is open source and so are the platforms Blockstream will develop.


its a open source path, once taken could lead to the dark side, and with out the right incentive structure in place may be impossible to turn back.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 19, 2014, 12:34:11 PM
More good stuff from Back :

Quote
"There’s a lot of education that needs to occur, there’s a lot of communication, and we look forward to the coming months where we’re going to be publishing more details, more technical details, sample code on GitHub, and allow people to start experimenting with various parts of the technology stack," Hill said.

The CEO said that Blockstream will strive to illustrate how sidechains can be used to empower entrepreneurial development, and that for now, this means educating developers through workshops and co-development.

Hill

Quote
"The entire project was born out of the open-source community, so the idea that we would do anything that isn’t open source or isn’t decentralized or open permission-less innovation is anti-bitcoin"

bu bbbu bbbuttttt Blockstream are the only one that profit from sidechains, right?
legendary
Activity: 861
Merit: 1010
November 19, 2014, 12:32:54 PM
And what if they step down?

Should they also stop committing code to Bitcoin?

You want to save Bitcoin from a ghost by proposing that 40% of its core developers & 3 top commiters stop working on it.

Yeah, I'm sure that will play out well for the development of Bitcoin's own code.
You've actually hit on a separate, but related issue.

There is a subset of toxic people and petty tyrants among the core developers who believe that what they do defines Bitcoin and wish to be the eternal gatekeepers of what is and is not allowed. They can't actually earn that position by virtue of being superior software engineers, so they keep it by resorting to FUD and other underhanded tactics any time some other developers try to get involved.

There's an extremely long list of people who would have tried to step up and participate, but have been effectively shut out by that cartel.

Bitcoin will be in a much stronger and more secure position once Bitcoin Core is deprecated, or is at least relegated to a minority position on the network. Part of the reason will be that the consensus will be derived from software implementations with a better design and higher code quality, and part of the reason will be because of limiting the effect of toxic developers so that more people will be willing to contribute.

PS: I still haven't forgotten that you never bothered to justify your "less decentralized" claim about colored coins.
What are the other implementations of the protocol besides Bitcoin Core available right now?
legendary
Activity: 1036
Merit: 1000
November 19, 2014, 11:43:11 AM
Great post as usual, ZB.  I mostly1 agree: the amount of bitcoins that move to a sidechain will depend, in part, on the credibility of the 2-way peg.  And, realistically, it will probably take years for any sidechain to establish enough credibility to attract a significant amount of bitcoins (assuming OP_SIDECHAINPROOFVERIFY is implemented, and even this could take a few years if it happens at all).  So I suspect any migration of economic activity away from the Blockchain to be slow and anti-climactic.    

Hypothetical Question: If we assume (perhaps unrealistically) that the 2-way peg is unbreakable and if we also assume (again, perhaps unrealistically) that the security of Bitcoin's blockchain remains unchanged with sidechains, what additional risks do sidechains impose?  The risks I can see are (a) that sidechains could be used as an "excuse" to avoid addressing Bitcoin's scalability, thereby making the likelihood of an uber sidechain absorbing all the bitcoin more likely (along with the possible shenanigans that such an event might entail), and (b) that it sets a precedent that soft-forking changes to add new "features" are OK.

1I think even if one assumes the 2-way peg is unbreakable, that value is still stored on the sidechain ledger (at least) in the extreme case where the majority of coins and economic activity take place on that sidechain.  If everyone moves out of bitcoin and onto the sidechain, then the Blockchain no longer serves its memory function--it becomes superseded by the sidechain's ledger.

Thanks for this, Peter. It brings me to something I've been thinking about recently: is the ledger we talk about really "with Bitcoin" (the main chain) in the first place? Or, in what sense is the ledger with Bitcoin or with a sidechain (or with a spin-off)?

Quote
If everyone moves out of bitcoin and onto the sidechain, then the Blockchain no longer serves its memory function--it becomes superseded by the sidechain's ledger.

It seems to me that, assuming the 2wp is perfect and permanent, if everyone moves to the sidechain, the ledger remains perfectly preserved as long as the sidechain continues working. Bitcoin is no longer serving the memory function (Bitcoin the protocol/chain is dead), but the memory function is being served by another chain (and Bitcoin the ledger lives on). The store of value function has been maintained, but not by what we'd usually want to call "Bitcoin."

There are some definitional ambiguities making this difficult to pin down. The word Bitcoin is used to mean:

  • Bitcoin the protocol
    • Bitcoin the protocol maintained by the people now known as the core devs
    • Bitcoin the protocol adopted by the economic majority, or the majority of mining power
  • Bitcoin the blockchain
  • Bitcoin the ecosystem
  • Bitcoin the ledger (who owns what percentage of the ledger)

The most notable thing about this list, I think, is that the first meanings are the most commonly used, but the last meanings are what really matter from an investor's perspective. Especially Bitcoin the ledger. A sidechain takeover threatens the protocol and the blockchain, but not necessarily the ecosystem, and not the ledger insofar as the peg is ensured and the sidechain is as sound as Bitcoin.

Now whether the sidechain will be as sound as Bitcoin is up in the air. I am skeptical for now, but again in a scenario where everyone is moving to the sidechain that condition has presumably been met in a most credible fashion.

To me, spin-offs are a safer and more elegant way to add functionality to Bitcoin the ledger. Perhaps if Bitcoin the ledger was recognized as the real essence of Bitcoin, rather than the protocol used for updating that ledger, spin-offs would be recognized by everyone as the obvious choice. What do you think?
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
November 19, 2014, 07:02:10 AM
these ppl have a strong incentive to make money, not only for themselves but for their investors.  to do this, they need to construct and sell as many of these speculative SC's that offer all manner of speculative assets, none of which are likely to be related to sound money.  in fact, they discourage sound money by encouraging speculation.

I'm so sorry to have to say this again but you are out of you mind.

The core devs you talk down on have been hacking for hours on Bitcoin's code for the previous few years.

You think that you have got all the answers because you have a popular thread on bitcointalk forum and your join date says 2011 ?

Did you even bother reading their blogs and understand where they are coming from? Who they are? What this project means to them?

For some, it is the culmination of nearly 20 years of cryptography related work. These guys are all champions of the open-source movement. Cypherpunks that have collectively recognized that Bitcoin is their opportunity to show their work to the world.

Your insistence on using the stupid "devs gonna dev" meme is a blatant offense at the core of Bitcoins' ethos. I sometimes wonder if you forget about the audience you are talking to. This very forum is full of devs creating the services YOU are using, without charging you a satoshi. All because of open source.

Considering you are an ardent defender of Satoshi's blockchain, I propose you consider having some respects for devs, that have devved & came up with the technology that you use everyday and will make you filthy rich.

As for these people, no they are not in the business of creating "speculative SCs".

They are in fact hoping to build a decentralized environment of trust-less infrastructure that will support the Bitcoin economy and actually help strengthen its core.

Sidechains are IMO *the* natural evolution of BTC. It is Bitcoin 2.0 done right. Now that does not mean that all other crypto 2.0 projects are irrelevant : I think federated models/oracles/voting pools and maybe colored coins will find their niche and be used most probably in majority by the corporate world to create whatever model of infrastructure that provides necessary control, oversight & transparency.

Sidechains will likely support large scale open source infrastructure where the value exchanged might command a security model that should be considerably more decentralized. My bet is these open source platforms will be developed by Blockstream.

These 20 millions are going to be used to develop Sidechains' dev kit. This kit might include platforms ("official" sidechains) that enable bootstrapping other secondary sidechains. Reid Hoffman has insisted that Blockstream at this stage is akin to the Mozilla Corporation. He has stressed prioritization of "public good over returns to investors."

In that sense, you are right that SPVP is crucial to their success because it is the only way they can create these ambitious extensions of Bitcoin I'm sure they have in mind.

I suspect they will leverage these open source platforms to then concentrate on consulting and developing secondary sidechains that serve corporations/governments interest. These will likely not be MM for reasons stated below, they are likely to use a different model.

What you should not forget is SPVP is open source and so are the platforms Blockstream will develop.

If you think they are going to be alone playing with these toys you are fooling yourself. None of this is proprietary.

By its open source nature it will become part of the internet and will lay the foundation for hundreds, thousands of unimaginable innovations.

SPVP, sidechains are a public good for everyone to use, Blockstream are the innovators leading the way.

Yes there will be idiots who will try to abuse the system but they will be flushed out by honest, hardworking technologists that will build recognizagle, safe and useful applications for the world to use, preserve its value & grow the economy.

Yes speculative instruments will be built but they will run on mathematically proven and secure reserve that does not inflate the value of its holder's wealth. Withstanding the obvious fluctuations of whatever market or asset he decides to invest in. Your suggestion that people are going to be throwing their money into half-assed scams that will sink the Bitcoin economy is asinine at best.

If these sidechains are successful than logically so is Bitcoin because unlike what you twisted up logic leads you to think no one can sit at the table without having purchased its tickets. It matters little whether people decide to hold stocks, bond, insurance & contract because they are all trading in BTC. Someone has to pay for them, whether they decide to use them as bearer instrument for anything or as currency.

No, people are *not* having a free pass by "siphoning" BTC through a sidechain. Unless they effectively steal them they will have to pay "cold hard cash" to claim them (BTC).
Careful!
Canada has NI 51-102.  In the US its section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933.
But when making such strong claims about the future you may want something like this somewhere in your public facing documentation:

Quote
The above contains statements related to future business and financial performance and future events or developments involving Blockstream that may constitute forward-looking statements.
These statements may be identified by words such as "expect," "look forward to," "anticipate" "intend," "plan," "believe," "seek," "estimate," "will," "project" or words of similar meaning.
Blockstream may also make forward-looking statements in other reports, in presentations, in material delivered to shareholders and in press releases. In addition, Blockstream representatives may from time to time make oral forward-looking statements. Such statements are based on the current expectations and certain assumptions of Blockstream management, of which many are beyond Blockstream's control. These are subject to a number of risks, uncertainties and factors. Should one or more of these risks or uncertainties materialize, or should underlying expectations not occur or assumptions prove incorrect, actual results, performance or achievements of Blockstream may (negatively or positively) vary materially from those described explicitly or implicitly in the relevant forward-looking statement. Blockstream neither intends, nor assumes any obligation, to update or revise these forward-looking statements in light of developments which differ from those anticipated.

I didn't see anyone is alleging actual impropriety, merely pointing out a conflict of interest due to the duties of care and trust which exists between the Blockstream employees to their investors, and to the constituent community of Bitcoin Core.

It isn't the first time for such conflicts, it likely won't be the last.  People will be watching how the conflict is managed and making decisions based on that.  There are already some mechanisms in place for work review and commit review, and they might consider adding or some reviewers or looking at the process to avoid the appearance of any impropriety.

It is probably a good thing you have nothing whatsoever to do with Blockstream because if you did, you would be a problem for them.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1008
November 19, 2014, 06:14:35 AM
The sidechain would need Bitcoin in order to survive. It can't kill the hand that feeds it.

True up to a point.
After which it doesn't.

it depends on what will substitute bitcoin, after such a "point".
if it's a better bitcoin I'm all for it. I guess we won't know
until it will happen.

legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
November 19, 2014, 06:07:07 AM
The sidechain would need Bitcoin in order to survive. It can't kill the hand that feeds it.

True up to a point.
After which it doesn't.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
November 19, 2014, 05:01:24 AM
And what if they step down?

Should they also stop committing code to Bitcoin?

You want to save Bitcoin from a ghost by proposing that 40% of its core developers & 3 top commiters stop working on it.

Yeah, I'm sure that will play out well for the development of Bitcoin's own code.
You've actually hit on a separate, but related issue.

There is a subset of toxic people and petty tyrants among the core developers who believe that what they do defines Bitcoin and wish to be the eternal gatekeepers of what is and is not allowed. They can't actually earn that position by virtue of being superior software engineers, so they keep it by resorting to FUD and other underhanded tactics any time some other developers try to get involved.

There's an extremely long list of people who would have tried to step up and participate, but have been effectively shut out by that cartel.

Bitcoin will be in a much stronger and more secure position once Bitcoin Core is deprecated, or is at least relegated to a minority position on the network. Part of the reason will be that the consensus will be derived from software implementations with a better design and higher code quality, and part of the reason will be because of limiting the effect of toxic developers so that more people will be willing to contribute.

PS: I still haven't forgotten that you never bothered to justify your "less decentralized" claim about colored coins.
legendary
Activity: 3416
Merit: 1912
The Concierge of Crypto
November 19, 2014, 02:56:58 AM
The sidechain would need Bitcoin in order to survive. It can't kill the hand that feeds it.

why not? Doesn't it have its own mining and could just cut loose from the main chain once the internal limit is reached?

I'm not sure really. I thought sidechains would be merged mined. Otherwise, the security of the sidechain would not be much better than bitcoin's own blockchain.
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
November 19, 2014, 01:50:58 AM
The sidechain would need Bitcoin in order to survive. It can't kill the hand that feeds it.

why not? Doesn't it have its own mining and could just cut loose from the main chain once the internal limit is reached?
legendary
Activity: 3416
Merit: 1912
The Concierge of Crypto
November 19, 2014, 01:49:58 AM
The sidechain would need Bitcoin in order to survive. It can't kill the hand that feeds it.
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