Topic: Goose20 outstanding Loan (Read 1047 times)

Time for Goose20 to man up and repay Zazarb what he owes.

I have read the whole thread and this is my opinion on this:

goose20 defense is based on the fact that he is entitled to default the loan because BTC has increased in value from the time that he had taken the loan:



This position has no real world backup.

The fact is that goose20 took the loan in BTC and now is in default. A few years ago, the banks were giving loans in Swiss Francs for everything ranging from personal loans to mortgage loans (you can search on the web to see in which country). In the meantime, the Swiss Franc had increased in value so the rate payments had become extremely large in the national currency compared to when the loan was granted. People had complained to the government, and all the government could do in order to help was to talk with the banks to grant some extensions and this was it. Many people had lost their houses and are still in debt.

In conclusion, my point of view is that goose20 defense it's just an absurder excuse in order to default the loan: in his own words, it says that the increase of BTC value has a bearing on the loan repayment, when in fact it doesn't.

zazarb is entitled to the loan repayment as agreed in the original terms, if the loan was in BTC, then he is entitled to receive the payment in BTC also, if it doesn't specify otherwise in the original terms.

I really think that goose20 wasn't trying to scam, but his approach on this (with inventing excuses) doesn't show a trustworthy behaviour, so, for now, I will leave negative feedback to goose20 in order to warn others until this situation is resolved.

I agree with TMAN completely. Ask zazarb to freeze interest, and lock the loan in USD or AUD, if you're from Australia and is worried about any forex frisks.

Zazarb agreed to even reducing interest, at this point. I think that he would be more than happy for you to repay a lesser amount, even though the contract in the beginning may state otherwise. Obviously you'll have to work it out with him.

At least by doing this you have a target to work towards... Otherwise if BTC continues its way up you'll just have to keep paying more and more. But next time fix the loan in USD first, take this as a lesson. I know you're not the kind to want to go through all this, but this is your mistake. Do better next time and everything would be fine...

#then I was wrong, because I had better opinions about you.
#what terms do you expect,  if our agreements signed specifically for such!
# this thread about this one deal , and stop to finally related it to fiat or previous deals.
# "immediately"- I wait since Nov. until Feb., and maybe yourself have always acknowledged that  not paid me, but I do not see it in your answer(after 2.5 months of silence):


P.S.
We can talking about freezing  interest(or even reducing) but first you need repaid principle amount what you borrowed.

Thanks TMAN.

hands on knees - say you are sorry and ask the man what options are available.. he may be willing to peg against USD now he may not, but seeing as you are here and wanting to sort it out I think he may listen to some reasonable requests.

1st of all though you do need to apologize and get his buy in of how to resolve it fella.

Hi TMAN,

Thanks for contributing and for your advice as to what should have been done. Hindsight is a great thing afterall.

Any advice at all as to what you recommend to resolve this from this point going forward?

Cheers

Total outsider here, but goose20 you are in the wrong..

A few things that you should of done differently due to your situation, as BTC was rising and you knew you could not keep up with the payments you should of made full disclosure to the lender explaining that you had cashed out the BTC to USD and would therefore be purchasing BTC to honor the debt. Then you should of asked to re negotiate the terms, IE - if BTC is less than $X then you repay as normal if BTC goes above $Y then the loan will need to be switched to pair against USD, by not doing that and just rolling your debt over and only paying the VIG you were effectively gambling against a massive bull run. Not sating zazarb would have to do that, but I am sure he would prefer to have something back other than a load of empty air.. if you wanted a USD loan I do not understand why you didn't go to a bank?


Another option would of been to ask the lender to freeze interest as you were struggling to fulfill the loan, I cannot see this was requested either. zazarb is a lender but it is known he is a reasonable guy.. bottom line is you still owe him the full amount and he deserves full repayment, at this point you need to stop "hoping" btc goes down to $1K and start thinking that BTC will hit $100K and start acting accordingly. 

No it's not an offence, just not something to call someone you are wanting a positive resolution from. At least not in my opinion.



What the hell?? - that has been my point - that you know i have NOT scammed you. This 'Scam Accusations' sub-forum is NOT the place for this matter. People come to this section without reading and just jump to conclusions - there have only been 3 or so people in this thread who seem to have actually read the thread and said something helpful - the others not so much.




How about we look at the whole paragraph for the context:

I said $1,000 again, because that what is was roughly when this all started. Not because it has to fall to that amount for me to repay. I was saying the only reason for any of this has been the btc price going 10x - 20x, nothing else.



No i have not. It the PM you are referring to, i was placing this matter in context overall, just like i have stated in posts in this thread. I have always acknowledged i have not paid the debt in full in btc terms. But from a fiat perspective, and from an overall dealings perspective between us, up to 20 deals, you are in front and this is 1 deal in many that hasn't been resolved. You've had many months to offer a solution to the on-going and ever-increasing repayments i have had to make, that's May 2017 to Feb 2018, but nothing this whole time. Its as if you said to yourself 'well since he is making part payments, I'll just let him struggle and continue to pay'. But as soon as i say i cant afford it at the moment due to x and y - you immediately open a scam accusation.

From my perspective that's really shitty man. I communicated with you the whole time how stressed i was about the repayments owed, yet i continued making them for months. Then you just do this to me.
You are in the business of lending. And because no borrower can be perfect all the time, you protect yourself by charging interest. And you've continued to charge me interest to this day.
I understand this is frustrating for you as it is for me. But the way you turned so suddenly, i'm like what the hell.

Cheers

Pathetic -this is not an offense,
"Scammer"- I never said so, except OP, when I used standard report format.
I do not care how much "flies I catch", even if it is a threat (not paid) , from your side.

- How do I know it? you come out of the discussion has not made any decision of solving problem.

here full sentence, and what other can means it ?

The only positive thing that happened here, You recognized that you owe money, via pm you tried to prove otherwise.

lol.

You'd have to be on whatever dank was on to seriously believe this 

[[Archived]]

That is very pathetic of you goose20 to say that - very pathetic indeed.

What a pathetic notion.

(Do I win a prize for calling you pathetic three times?)

That is 2 times now you've called me pathetic, along with calling me a scammer. You may want to keep in mind the saying 'you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar'. I don't respond to bullying and heavy-handed tactics. I've always communicated with you with courtesy. I remind you that i haven't scammed you and i have never lied to you.

And your second sentence above - you've misunderstood what i said because you've not taken it in the context i said it in.

Finally, i have not gone 'dark'. Dark would mean somebody who is regularly on here suddenly disappears. Either stops coming on regularly or starts a new account. I haven't started a new account. And in the 6-18 months prior to this, i came on here rarely anyways compared to my first 2-3years.

Cheers

This is very similar to what happened to dank several years ago. Borrow a couple hundred dollars worth of bitcoin for something, it doesn't work out, repaid many times (in terms of USD) the amount borrowed, only to not make a dent in the BTC amount of the loan. Dank eventually stopped trying to repay his debt.

Zazarb - I am not sure how much fiat currency you have, however what I have advised you do for longer term loans, and loans in which the borrower is running late, is when the BTC price is skyrocketing, offer to convert the loan into a USD (or other fiat currency) based loan for a fee, and if they agree, buy an equivalent amount of bitcoin on an exchange (when the borrower repays the loan, you can sell the bitcoin the repay you, so you end up with the same amount of USD and BTC). I am not saying you are wrong (I don't think you are wrong), however this would substantially increase your chances of getting repaid when BTC goes through the roof.

I would repeat what KWH said upthread, you both should try to reach a settlement agreement so that goose20 can make a payment that will satisfy the loan. Being that the payment is ~9 months late, repayment is doubtful otherwise

Pathetic, because you are doing it right now,
and the saying that you will be able to repay, when btc price fail to $1000, same as saying that you never paid back.

As Darkstar said, would the lender be entitled to ask you for a higher bitcoin repayment rate if you initially agreed on repaying x amount of bitcoin but then bitcoin dropped to the floor? Absolutely not. And any lender that does this will face scrutiny for sure from the community.

That would just be unfair to you, in that scenario. Same logic applies when bitcoin goes up, you don't demand the lender to reduce your repayment amount in bitcoin.

If you were taking out the loan for margin trading, then you are essentially shorting bitcoin, whether in relation to fiat, other cryptos, or whatever. Zazarb by providing the loan is long on bitcoin.

If you were to take out a margin trading loan on poloniex, and you lose money, are you eligible for a discount on your loan? No.

If you really believed that bitcoin loans are actually fiat loans in disguise somehow, then you should have asked for the fiat amount, sent in bitcoin, with interest calculated in bitcoin as well.

Right now you owe zazarb 0.46 BTC. That's a few thousand dollars, I'm sure you can work out a repayment plan with zazarb and work towards it.

If Bitcoin crashed to $100, would you have repaid zarzab 7.8BTC ($780)? No. You might have said that you will, but in reality, it almost certainly would not have happened. Lenders "gamble" on the BTC value not going down, while borrowers "gamble" on the BTC value not going up.


I would:

A) Not take a loan I would not be certain I can repay
B) Not continuously ask for extensions
C) Negotiate better terms as you see fit

ex: "I will borrow 0.65BTC and repay 0.68BTC, unless the price, determined by the current price on preev, is 20% higher or lower than the USD value of the BTC when this loan was taken, in which case the loan will become a fiat based loan with 5% interest applied"

ex: "I would like to borrow 650$ USD (currently 0.65BTC) for 1 month at a 10% interest rate. The loan will be fiat denominated, and I will repay 715$ worth of BTC determined by the Bitfinex rate on the date of repayment"

Hi timerland,

Thanks for adding to the discussion.

Can i ask whether you read the whole thread?

Yes, I've said many times that i can't afford it. But let's get real here, the price going 10x - 20x is the major contributing factor. What would you do if a loan you expected to be repay for $780, gets to $5K -10k?? I could have got stuck just paying monthly interest in perpetuity it cost so much in fiat each month, without ever making a dent in the principal. That's just insane and unreasonable - get real people.

Please remember that zazarb and i have done many deals together over a long period of time, to the tune of many btc. He is well in front with our total business dealings. If zazarb was going to offer a discount or reduction, he would have by now is these circumstances. Its been many months of communication via PM  before this.

Cheers

@yahoo - well you obviously haven't read this whole thread, so thanks a bunch for your effort. No need to comment if you can't be bothered to read the thread.

I have communicated with zazarb the whole time. And the whole time until recently making repayments. I had negotiated with zazarb, that is, that I'd continue to make repayments. But i can't afford it at the moment,  my little boy just started school - so yeah I choose to buy his uniform and books etc as my priority at the moment.

"If you can't afford repayment then just say so" -> i have, many times. Oh yeah that's right, you haven't read the thread.

"failed to handle this properly."  Ummm, how would you have handled this?

"Users are jumping on the "Bandwagon" due to your attitude of the situation." What attitude? I have acknowledged i still owe a portion of the loan.  I'm just saying i haven't scammed zazarb.

"If he never receives his money,". Well never hasn't arrived yet has it.

"then they would not be doing their duty as DT." DT members have no duty to do anything.

"the price of bitcoin got too high and you just cannot afford to repay. That's noone's fault". Yep, TOTALLY agree.....hang on, oh its my fault -> Sorry in that case.

"Or you could speak with zazarb about making some sort of payment arrangement?" How do you know there's not anything going on in the background?

Yahoo, you are an honest guy and are trustworthy. I see you have taken out loans from zazarb too. Through 'noone's fault' as you put it, the price of btc skyrockets while you have a loan with zazarb  (hypothetically). You now owe him $10k for what was a $750 equivalent loan. You explain your situation to zazarb and ask him to take all things into perspective -> he proceeds to open a scam accusation against you, a honest and trustworthy guy.

Q. How would you feel? What would you do now?
Please please provide me an answer, I'm sincerely stuck on this. Please don't chicken out on the question as others have and simply state 'pay the loan'.

As someone with credibility around here, try not to jump on the bandwagon. I'm glad you've checked this thread as i know you are sensible. I don't categorise you as part of the mob group, so i want to hear you out.

Cheers

Edit: please see also my next post to timerland for bit of extra context.

Cheers again

Your best chance here is probably to negotiate with zazarb. Otherwise this scam accusation is probably going to go on forever.

If you can't afford repayment then just say so, instead of going on with excuses of bitcoin being too high or whatever.

Why didn't you just take out a loan fixed in USD if you didn't want to pay off the loan in BTC? Even get a cash advance from your bank/credit card if that's the case. Your deal with zazarb doesn't say anything about the loan being in USD whatsoever.

As yahoo said, speak with zazarb, see if he could offer to lock the repayment amount in fiat now, since bitcoin is quite low at the moment. Or discuss whether you could go on a payment plan without interest for a while.

When you noticed bitcoin was on the rise, why didn't you approach zazarb with a different solution? I have had many deals with the man and he has always been fair.

You acknowledge you borrowed xx amount of bitcoin, you also acknowledge you still owe a portion of that bitcoin. I think all of this doesn't come to light had you approached zazarb way earlier. He only opened this scam accusation because you have failed to keep communication, failed to repay the outstanding portion, failed to handle this properly. Users are jumping on the "Bandwagon" due to your attitude of the situation.

If he never receives his money, how is this NOT a scam accusation? Your excuse of you just cannot afford it, does not excuse this from being a "scam accusation". Until he has his money it is a scam. The fiat number does not matter in this case as you borrowed bitcoin and agreed to repay bitcoin.

I also do not feel like the Mob is after you either. The DT members are just protecting the rest of the community. You owe a guy money and there's no reason you should not feel some sort of pressure to pay. That being the negative trust you have been given. If they just left you alone to go on about your daily activities without warning the rest of the community you are a bad loan, then they would not be doing their duty as DT.

No matter what argument you present here you are a bad loan man. I'm not trying to be an asshole here but as I read it, the price of bitcoin got too high and you just cannot afford to repay. That's noone's fault here except yours and the terms you agreed to in your loans.

Maybe you have some skills and can offer services to the community to try and get the loan repaid? Or you could speak with zazarb about making some sort of payment arrangement?

"
If you had paid the due amount in December than zazarb could have profited a good amount of money (BTC0.195 * $19k = $3,700). But if you pay just right now than zazarb already lost $2100+.

I showed the USD profit & loss of zazarbs' because you are calculating in USD, whereas it should not be the case of USD term.

I'm wondering why you didn't take the opportunity in recent days to buy the BTC when it was fallen below $6k? In my opinion, that was your golden chance and you missed that."



Hi akamit,

Thank you for joining the discussion.

You are calculating things all wrong – even though I know you are just trying to provide an example. You are assuming he would have traded and picked the top of the market.

BTW, the loan was due in May 2017 – I kept making part payments until Nov/Dec when the price of btc got way too high and I could not afford to make a payment.

I will provide another way to hypothetically calculate what you’ve calculated, but that all doesn’t matter because no one knows what zazarb would have done with his btc, not even zazarb himself, unless of course he always keeps it in btc and never exchanges to and from fiat. In which case 1 btc is always 1 btc and he hasn’t lost anything at all should this all get sorted.

So people should STOP saying look at how much money zazarb has lost. Those people should make up their minds and stop swapping back and forth between btc is btc and then referring to profit/loss in fiat terms.

But please understand, I am not saying that I do not have a portion of the loan outstanding (not disagreeing with that), I am just saying I am NOT a scammer and have NEVER been dishonest with zazarb or anyone else.

This is not a scam accusation despite zazarb putting it into this section, but a gathering of the usual mob to bully. Scam accusations and negative trust shouldn’t be used to resolve business issues unless there is actual scamming or dishonesty going on – otherwise it is just an abuse of the system. And just because a handful of people on here jump on the bandwagon, a quick review of those people’s feedback ratings given and received versus mine will quickly put things into perspective to anyone with any grey matter between their ears. So this specific group are in no way this ‘community’.

So, back to the point of another way to hypothetically calculate what you’ve calculated.

Lets say zazarb hypothetically exchanges his btc back to fiat each time it is received. i.e he is not a trader and not looking to pick the top of the market to sell or the bottom of the market to buy.

He provides a 0.62btc loan or $750.
He expects a 0.65btc repayment or ~$780.

If the repayment is made on time he receives his 0.65btc and immediately exchanges it to fiat and gets ~$780.

All good right. But…, the customer is actually late on repayment in full. The customer makes part repayments instead over a period of many months to the total amount of 0.455btc.

If zazarb exchanges the btc each time it is received, he gets a total of ~$1,830 (250%+).

Looking at it this way, he is way in front.

NOW I am just stating the above as a HYPOTHETICAL, so people stop referring things back to fiat if their stance is the loan was in btc and btc must be paid back. Zazarb himself, you, and others in this thread have all referred to how much money he has potentially lost, at the same time as saying the loan was in btc.

Lastly, zazarb is accusing me of scamming 0.46btc – it all includes continued interest. I have never asked for, and he has never offered, a discount or reduction.

People can comment all they like, but zazarb knows that I am not a scammer, and I know I am not a scammer. And this is a business issue between zazarb and I. I choose to get a loan, so I need to deal with this from my end. He choose to get into the lending business, so he needs to deal with that from his end, not go crying to the bullies in the school yard every time there is a hiccup.

When people comment on here, I give them the courtesy and respond. I treat their opinions with respect, and I have treated everyone fairly. I have not received the same treatment in return: having been called a scammer, been called pathetic, been splashed in red, had the finger pointed at, and people rudely not responding to questions asked of them.

akamit, sorry if some on this post sounds like I am frustrated with you, I am not. Your post is one of the more fair and reasonable ones.

Cheers

Not sure if Victoria/NSW are still on daylight savings, but this is interesting:  Archive: http://archive.is/VOFfj


goose20 went offline at one minute to midnight AEST.

Respect to KWH for his efforts and mature replies.

@goose20
There is no doubt that you were one of the trusted members here until zazarb case. If you don't solve this case then you will remain as scammer forever.

In order to solve the case, at first, you have to consider the fact that the loan term was in BTC but not in USD. KWH already tried to make you understand about this fact.
You are just considering your own perspective and trying to force that to all other members. But try to see from zazarb's perspective and calculate zazarb's loss.

As far I have understood that the loan repayment amount was BTC0.65 and you paid back BTC0.455 until December 2017. So the due amount is BTC0.195, right? (Ref post #2)

If you had paid the due amount in December than zazarb could have profited a good amount of money (BTC0.195 * $19k = $3,700). But if you pay just right now than zazarb already lost $2100+.

I showed the USD profit & loss of zazarbs' because you are calculating in USD, whereas it should not be the case of USD term. You are just disagreeing with the "agreement" made during loan procedure.

I can feel your pain, I may felt the same, but the agreement is agreement and it cannot be changed at any cost. If it can be changed from one party, then what is the reason of "agreement"?

The only way you can solve this case is negotiating with zazarb, ask him for time, ask him to lower the due. If you ask for the time then don't forget about BTC price rise again, you already got caught once.

I'm wondering why you didn't take the opportunity in recent days to buy the BTC when it was fallen below $6k? In my opinion, that was your golden chance and you missed that.
What will you do if BTC price goes back to Everest again?

As far I read out the first page and if I didn't miss anything (so many big posts), zazarb haven't charged you anything yet on top of the agreement. Don't you think it is enough what zazarb did.

I hope you guys will come to a negotiation to end this case soon.

@goose20 are you still think that I left you unfair and unwarranted feedback?
Even when the community has the opposite opinion?
And what are your further plans? You will  gone dark?

it already goes to offtopic.
You are probably far away from the life of this forum, I am talking about what is currently rather than what should be your opinion,
It has long been told by Theymos that being in DT , not mean that user trusted, that means that his feedback are accurate. There is not one example, when user scamed and already tagged in red but still belong to DT.


edit:


Of course its you choice! You just do not want it , you want to be smarter than others.
And it is not empty words, because :

You claimed that waiting 6000 usd tax return.(with proof)


And You claimed that can spare 500-1000usd per month:

Sorry no, there is no function for DT members. They should go about their business as everyone else. There is no duty on them to do anything. Some just think it's their duty. They should definitely not allow themselves to be used as proxies for non-DT members. It has always been recommended that forum members maintain their own trust lists.

I actually can't believe i just read that from you. You've been here a long time.

Cheers

You never asked for discount, because yourself always set interest! And I always agreed, until end of July , when hard fork had to happen, and I request to repay in full,(Loans term was until 27th July)  I missed hard fork, you refuse pay compensation and penalty for later repayment and again set percent your own choice, and I was forced to agreed again.


Do you hear yourself what you talking?


And what other function does the being in DT? Tagging, user whose behavior is inappropriate. And this is not an achievement, it is a duty to help clear forum.

Zazarb, where have i asked you to be exempt? I've never even asked you ever for a discount.

Other than the initial loan requests on your thread, for all our loans, all of our dealings have been via PM. For months you accepted interest only or part principal repayments as i continued to make payments to you. Then come November with the price of btc very high, and Christmas being the following month, i informed you i couldn't afford repayments, and I'd see how things were looking after the holiday period in January.

You recently contact me and i state the btc price is higher than before and i cannot afford to make repayments. You state in that case you'll open a scam accusation -> and here we are. BUT, you know i have not done anything to scam you.

So you using this scam accusation section and asking DT members to come to this thread to tag me red is a low act. Yes, there are cowboys on this forum that like to throw red around, but this is a business deal between you and i with no scamming or dishonesty being involved. Hiccups happen in business through no fault sometimes.

People here pointing fingers and saying 'repay the loan', as if being able to afford to pay something is a choice - what the hell. I cannot afford it.

Cheers

19th  October(last payment), somewhere celebrate Christmas? You said that need money to gift , you priority family needs, this  honest behavior against Lender , when you later 3-4 month with repayment?

Next you already defame me! where you logic? why I not accuse you public when btc price was 19k in Dec. or  15-12k in Jan.? I do not disturbed you at all times that you set me, I awaited  whole January, and only than I pm'ed you. Public accusation was only posted when you refuse to pay me at all.



#Where you found feedback in red? I want see also.

#What kind of nonsense? How btc fail related to public scam accusation?

#Are you my accountant?

#365% interest ? where did you get that number? usual I charge 7-10% per month, you have exclusive condition and paid only 4-6%

#Within almost three years of activity, my service currently have around 7BTC(without interest) outstanding/default loan.

I do not carry bookkeeping, but I doubt very much that this service is profitable at all.

Even I am in profit in my service , that it do not exempt you from obligation, among other things it would be unfair to all the others  borrowers, who paying honestly.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that goose20 is in Melbourne Australia.

I don't have anything in my notes to suggest goose20 uses any other UID's, but if I hear anything, I'll pass it along.

If the definition of "scamming" was someone not fulfilling contract terms, then that is exactly what you're doing here. But tbh I wouldn't call you a scammer yet. You're still in contact with the lender, which is the least you can do.

I said you missed the original repayment date, and extended the loan. If you paid the BTC as agreed, last year in March, then none of this would have happened. By requesting extensions you're acknowledging that the volatility of bitcoin is taken into account for.

This is a bitcoin forum for a reason. I don't think that it's fair to say that everyone keeps referring back to fiat in terms of bitcoin. You shouldn't have taken out the loan if you couldn't deal with the volatility of it. Plus, isn't margin trading all about volatility of bitcoin/altcoins anyways?

Repay the loan. I think that your reputation is on the line here, and with BTC price being at basically its lowest since like 4 months, you should be getting a good discount already if you do keep everything in fiat instead of BTC. Unless of course you negotiate with zazarb something.

Vod, where exactly have i said that?

All I've said is that i cannot afford the repayment currently due to the high price of btc.

And that turns into a scam accusation.

And i say wtf, i have never ever scammed.

And your feedback would be more appropriate and accurate if it was neutral and said "has not fully repaid a loan yet...", as I have not gone dark.

Cheers

Well, YOU unilaterally decided the loan did not need to be repaid because it was too expensive.

You can either pay the loan back, or abandon the account because you didn't know what you were doing.  :/

You act like Zazarb took a loan from you or you now get to change the terms because you got burned by rising prices. Incredible.
There is only the 1 issue: Your loan. Nothing else.
It's your rep to burn.

Wow. I AM NOT playing a blame excuse game. YOU ARE.

All i am saying is that there has been NO dishonesty here. There has been NO scamming here.

Why even say 'he could have sold the btc for a nice profit'? That just proves what i am saying - the reality is EVERYTHING btc related is referenced back to $$'s. And currently i cannot afford the $$ to buy the btc because it is much higher than when the loan was taken out. Next week it could fall to $1000 again and all of this drama was for nothing as i could then afford to repay.

Does zazarb pay you at all? I write a very long and detailed post to you explaining things, and you just respond with a simple paragraph referring to blame/excuse. Can you not see deeper here?

Cheers

The "case" is you not fulfilling your loan agreement. Nothing else. No hurt feelings, retaliatory feedback, BTC rising.....all excuses. Deal with your loan.

Hi pinkman,

Thank you for adding to this discussion.

Thank you further for your offer to help. But i would like zazarb and i to sort this. It has been dealt with in private for months.

Thank you the most for having the insight and common sense to see that this matter is not a scam and should not be a scam accusation. That i appreciate sincerely. Its so easy for people to jump on the red bandwagon, but its that little be harder to look deeper and see what teally is the case.

Cheers

No it is not. You complain of rising BTC costs and the interest you AGREED to pay as a reason not to pay up, but that is not the lenders fault. He could have sold that BTC he loaned you for a nice profit now, you want him to lose the BTC?  How is the lender wrong here? You are in the wrong having not followed the loan agreement. You are not new to BTC by a long shot but failed to protect yourself against volatility.
So you basically want him to forgive the loan and you skate off free and clear?  Where is the reasoning behind this stance?
Instead of playing a blame/excuse game, why not get with the lender and work out an agreement to solve the only issue: the loan agreement.

KWH,

Firstly, I see that you are genuinely now trying to help out – so thank you for that.

But come on, what’s with the initial heavy-handedness and such one sided position you are taking?

I see you leave people a lot of red trust with the comment  ‘outstanding loan to zazarb’.  Although outstanding loan does not equate to dishonesty/scamming, so it would be better if the comments left by you were more something like ‘user has gone dark while still having an outstanding loan’. Are you officially zazarbs proxy DT or are you just constantly called on by him in the background.

I know you do good in this community and I hope you are acting from the perspective of making this place better, but you are wrong in this matter between zazarb and I. He is abusing the scam accusation section for this thread and leaving (and getting people to leave me) red feedback as there is NO scamming going on here. There is NO dishonesty here.

There are dozens of PM’s between zazarb and I from April 2017 to now – everything has ALWAYS been communicated. And I’ve continued to make payments up until Christmas because of Christmas time and the very high price of btc. Only now that the btc price is dropping fast that he decides to make this public nd accuse me of being a scammer - WTF. He has only posted a small portion of all our PM’s.

You state “You are talking about things (BTC skyrocketing) that were not in the original agreement. This has no bearing on the loan repayment.” Well of course it does. BTC went up 10x – 20x so I could no longer afford the payments – that definitely has a bearing.

You state “The lender did not make BTC prices soar”. Well neither did I as the borrower.

You state “You should have nailed the terms to USD or a certain payback amount down but you did not.” Well neither did zazarb.

You write “goose20, you know very well how volatile BTC can be, you should have set better terms for the loan. You agreed to the terms and got caught in the inflated BTC price. This is your responsibility, you need to fulfill the terms you agreed to. It does not matter how much you have already paid or will pay, nor how much you gained or lost, what matters are the terms you agreed to. I would strongly suggest you make this right as soon as possible.”

What a one-sided view. You could just have easily said something like:
Zazarb, you know very well how volatile BTC can be, you should have set better terms for the loan. You agreed to not take collateral from goose20 because of his high reputation and because you had so many profitable and positive dealings with him. He cannot currently fulfil the terms agreed to because of the massive increase in btc price, not because he is scamming you or because he is dishonest. You should remove this thread from scam accusations section as it is not a scam. You should change your feedback from negative to neutral if you want the public to know there is an outstanding loan. Goose20 is not untrustworthy and you know that – he has communicated with you and kept making payments for months to come good on your agreement.

 

KWH, so let us break this down:

Zazarb’s behaviour =

Long-term member of the forum.

Many positive trades, but also quite a few feedbacks in red.

Provided a no-collateral loan to a long-established client/customer.

The most recent loan was provided in April 2017 with a due date of May 2017. Then the btc price started to spike and kept up its meteoric rise to the point the customer could not afford to make payment. Everything was always communicated from the customer via PM.

Price of BTC starts to fall, the customer still cannot payment – so he goes public.

Starts a Scam Accusation and begins the bullying process despite no dishonesty or scamming being part of the matter.

On this loan he is down currently.

On all business with goose20 he is up.

On all business in his lending thread he is up.

Charges up to 365% interest (sickly high) on loans despite holding at times over 120% collateral (very minimal risk).

States he provides loans not as a business but as a service to this community.

 

Goose20’s behaviour =

Long-term member of the forum.

Over 100 positive trades all with exceptional feedback.

Despite being on DT for a long time (was on ms.escrow list), I only left red tag once - to someone who truly scammed this community. I did not use the DT position to be part of the forum police.

Went about my business with no drama and complete honesty.

Requested numerous no collateral loans – and received many no collateral loans from several members, not just zazarb.  All paid back with interest and with no issues.

The most recent loan was taken out in April 2017 with a due date of May 2017. Then the btc price started to spike and kept up its meteoric rise to the point I could not afford to make payment. Everything was always communicated to zazarb.

 

KWH, I respect you as I’ve seen you on this forum a million times over the last 5 years. But I must state again, the stance you have taken is wrong in this matter between zazarb and I. I do not understand how you could be taking such a one-sided view, at all.


Cheers

You are talking about things (BTC skyrocketing) that were not in the original agreement. This has no bearing on the loan repayment.
The lender did not make BTC prices soar and is it fair to let someone break the loan agreement? You should have nailed the terms to USD or a certain payback amount down but you did not.
I am asking Zazarb to try to make a settlement on this overdue loan and get it repaid to his satisfaction and hopefully something you can repay in a lump sum and put this behind you both.

To everyone, who lazy to click reference link in OP,
here is original agreement:

And here message from goose20, after he made last payment on 19 Oct.2017 and self estimated how much he owe.

Was the loan taken in terms of USD? If the loan mentioned USD then repayment should be considered in USD but if not then no matter what the Price of BTC goes, it touches ATH or ATL you need to pay in exact BTC amount.

BTW how much is left over, if the amount is reasonable then i will contribute as i believe you are not on stretch of being called a scammer.

Moreover this thread should be in reputation section.

I disagree. You choose to come to this thread and contribute. But simply stating 'fix it' without any suggestion as to realistically how is unhelpful.

I have communicated at every turn with zazarb.
I took out a equiv $750 loan with an expectation repayment be ~$780. Now it ends up over $5k. Last month was over $10k. I cannot make btc, i can only buy it with $$.

Its easy to say fix it, but is that really fair and reasonable in such extraordinary circumstances...

Cheers

You are asking questions that do not relate to this thread. You are in default, you are at fault and need to complete the loan terms you agreed to.
As for an outright scam, I don't believe it is at this time but with the loan long overdue what else is the OP supposed to do?
Your left feedback is in error and I strongly suggest you remove it as it looks completely retaliatory.
This is a pretty easy fix for both, get together and work on that.

Hi KWH,

Thank you for contributing.
I get what you are saying, but how is this a scam or scam attempt? I am not saying i have repaid in full, i am simply saying this has nothing to do with scamming or being dishonest.

I am unable to continue to make the high repayments. What would you suggest? What would you do if you were in my situation?

I stand by my feedback as I believe neutral feedback is more appropriate from zazarb to me with a proper and full explanation of the facts and context. I have not, and never have, set out to scam anybody ever.

Cheers

goose20, you know very well how volatile BTC can be, you should have set better terms for the loan. You agreed to the terms and got caught in the inflated BTC price. This is your responsibility, you need to fulfill the terms you agreed to.
It does not matter how much you have already paid or will pay, nor how much you gained or lost, what matters are the terms you agreed to.
I would strongly suggest you make this right as soon as possible.
Good luck to both on a quick resolution.

As for the retaliation feedback I would suggest removing it.

Sad that you do not realize, that you are ruining your reputation. Nonsense repeated many times, not becomes true...
Pathetic thing, that you took BTC loan to marginal trade in poloniex , and traded between btc and altcoins , nothing do with btc price in fiat...

Edit:
By the way ,
 leaving such feedback to me  you abusing trust system, my feedback with reference to this topic, where everything is explained.

I believe that Red taging necessary, because people get false imagination that  can trust  to you your money, but that's not true.

Hi magneto,

Thanks for your 2 cents.

Just to clarify, there were no missed repayments. Things were always communicated with zazarb and initially things were agreed, as in agreed that I'd make the interest payment and roll over the principal. It was only months later and after btc price spiked substantially that it became impossible for me to keep making payments. Remember btc was up 10x - 20x last year. But at every time, i communicated things with zazarb.

My stance is i accept i haven't repaid in full. But not because of scammy or dishonesty, but by the 10x increase.

If you were in my position, after repaying 0.455btc and $1830 and after repaying 5.93btc of only 5.745btc received, would you pay another $3k - $10k towards an original  $750 loan?  If you would, i respect your virtue and romanticism that 1btc is 1btc. But for mine, the reality is everything to do with btc is referred back to fiat. We are no where near a point where things are referenced in btc alone.

I think it fair that if someone takes the time to post in this thread, no matter which way the thinking, that they state what they would do in my situation - considering the full context of things. I truly believe any fair and reasonable person would see that this is not a scam attempt. Zazarb is ahead overall in all our deals over the past 2-3 years. He knows me as an honest person which is why he lent me that much btc with no collateral. So did several other lenders - my feedback and reputation is solid.

Cheers

Just my 2 cents:

The original agreement was that you owed zazarb in bitcoin value and nowhere does it say that fiat was going to be involved, or the fact that repayment amount can be reduced due to the fact that fiat repayment amounts will be used if bitcoin goes up too much.

Goose20 fails repayments on time many many times, whilst I think that it's trustworthy behaviour that he had the audacity to respond to this scam accusation and not run away, you're still at fault here at least in my opinion. Especially if all this was as a result of a late repayment to begin with on your part.

If zazarb just held his bitcoin, he would have made a lot more than what he's gotten for you atm. So right now, he is definitely taking a loss.

Consider this - if you take out a loan from a lender, and you're required by the lender to repay more than you originally agreed with because bitcoin went down, even though it says clearly in the contract that you would pay x amount of bitcoins, would you be happy?

Hi MadZ,

Thanks for your input. What you say is fair. But please do not misunderstand what my position is.

Keep in mind that i have had over a dozen successful deals with zazarb, during which time the price moved up and down - there was never an issue of repayment.

However the reality that has led us here is the 10x increase in price. And whether it is reasonable and practical for someone to pay $5,000 - $10,000 for a $750 loan that was expected to be a ~$780 repayment. And whether non-repayment in full under such circumstances is a scam attempt.

It is unfortunate circumstances yes, but not a scam. I can understand zazarb's frustration here, but he also has to understand mine. How many people in the world would have continued to repay, even pay $1800, let alone hand over $5k and more. Any reasonable person can see what is fair here.

I respect your opinion. Hopefully you've understood the situation correctly. And if you truly think if you were in my position you'd hand over $5k+, then so be it. But i disagree with you and your negative feedback. I think you are taking a simplistic view and not paying any regard to the bigger picture.

This issue has come up before on the forum for others when the price first jumped over the $1000 mark. There were people of course on both sides. It's a similar issue before the Mt Gox bankruptcy trustee - he froze the debt to the $$ value at time of default, not btc amount. Using that same application here and I've overpaid zazarb. Things are as they are and its frustrating for us both.

It is complicated. Not simple. Definitely not a scam from my end. That is my position here.

Cheers

Based on your logic, zazarb should be entitled to ask you for more in re-payment whenever the price of BTC drops following the initial loan. After all, he lent you a certain value in USD and is getting a lower value in USD returned to him. It doesn't look like you were complaining when that was the case though. If you wanted a loan denominated in USD or another fiat currency, you should have added that to the terms. You knew Bitcoin was volatile, yet deliberately avoided repayment in the hope that the price would drop. It is now almost an entire year after you first entered into this agreement and you still haven't even repaid the principle. Zazarb has been more than lenient by waiting until now to publicly call you out on this. I will remove my feedback once this issue has been resolved to the lender's satisfaction.

Why are you trying to mislead others, with such absurd excuses and explanations. Because the creation of such nonsense can be accessed to absurdity, let say you took loan of 50btc  from me  2011(just $50usd )
and repaid with interest 55btc($55usd) so nowadays you can take loan 5btc  and not repay, because according you I am in profit!!!(try ask Theymos maybe he agree to sell VIP rank for $50usd, because most user bought it for such usd equivalent)
I suggest again look at our agreement, there is not mentioned anywhere fiat equivalent. Even in you last message with partial repayment (19th Oct) you clear stated that owe me 0.4BTC and after that I did not get any more btc from you:

That's the feeling that I'm not talking to the real goose20 Because real one understand risk and responsibility:

-- RESERVED  (i will respond when i review this) --

In the meantime, my response is:

I am not a scammer. I have not scammed zazarb. Zazarb  opening this as a scam accusation is ridiculous.

Quick facts are:
- in April 2017, i borrowed 0.62btc with a repayment of 0.65btc approx 1 month later. In $$ terms, that equated to loan of $750 with expected repayment of $780.
- This loan was after many dealings and previous loans with zazarb, all which went smoothly and were repaid with interest. Between 10 to 20 deals in all.
- But then the price of BTC started to rise quickly and a lot.
As the price continued to rise, i made 7 monthly part repayments total of 0.455Btc / $1830.
- By November and December the price was up 10x to 20x and it was impossible to keep paying.

This issue is due to the massive increase in BTC price and not my honesty. I have well over 100 successful trades on this forum with a very good record.

Summary
Zazarb = despite the big picture and overall context of the circumstances, i need to keep paying, even though it is many thousands of $$$"s now.
Goose20 = i continued to keep paying month after month, even as  BTC kept rising but it became unfair, unreasonable and unrealistic to continue due to massive volatility and price surge of Btc. The last loan i repaid 0.455btc/ $1830 of the 0.62btc/$750 loan. And of the previous 10 loans including this one, i received a total of 5.745btc from zazarb and paid him 5.930btc. He is at least +.185btc.

Zazarb has said his loaning is not done as a  business but rather as a service to this community. He is well in front in his dealings with me. I can not of anticipated such a huge spike in price.

There are a lot more PMs between myself and zazarb about this issue which zazarb has not posted here. I have asked his permission, and he has approved, that i may post these here to provide a fuller and more proper context. State a fact without proper context is misleading imo.

Cheers
goose20





Asked second extension (interest paid https://blockchain.info/tx/2fbb17a701a6ae05745bc4ba57b4d6b4bcee98c0f8317b7f70ae52c5eabaa0a2)


Asked third extension (paid interest https://blockchain.info/tx/463c49bf4913c18a39d2fd4cf45a1f3c61fcfb96b44d4f395ded990b5ca8b7ad)


Missed repayment on 27th July. I asked repay until hard fork.


here he paid interest for two month and small amount of principle


next repayment


Last one payment:

So last payment was on 19th Oct. remaining amount to repay 0.4BTC+ at least 0.06BTC interest for 3 month.

Additional Notes: I advise you to not deal with this user until this dispute is resolved.