Topic: Greece now targets tax evaders! next step cyprus style! (Read 4649 times)

I like varou tho, he seems to be his own man which is admirable. How is it going to pan out though. The Greeks want to remain in the Euro so it could be that animosity will soon replace the euphoria of recent weeks. It is unlikely that Merkel will move from her position and to grant the Greek people what they want is likely to create a domino effect on other countries in a similar position.

Greece is bankrupt, living beyond its means, whatever the outcome their people will suffer even greater auserity, as nobody will be of roared to borrow them any money.

))))))))))))))))))) it is matchless

It's collectivism. Nationalism its just a facade of collectivism. The leftist socialist crap is the exact same as the right-wing rabid nationalist sentiment.

So there is only 1 side in statism: the collective, which manifests itself in either leftist socialist or right winged nationalist, and alternating between these 2 whenever the other 1 fucks it up.

So in reality this left-right crap is an illusion, there is only 2 real sides: slavery or freedom, and to tell you the collective is not freedom

In fact, you said it all

But you are entirely right that there is something absurd in a state being a debtor.  After all, contracts are enforced by a state (or by cryptography.... ).  So how can a state be a debtor ?  How can a state make a contract with another state, or a foreign private entity ?  Who's going to enforce the contract ?  In the end, indeed, it is up to the other country to take up arms and to enforce its due... but then, why should they stop taking when they have collected their due ?

Moreover, the big problem with a state being a debtor is that a state can in principle (it being the local violence monopolist) extort its entire population - usually called taxes.  So yes, if you are having possessions in a certain state, if that state takes on a foreign loan, your possessions are at potential danger to be used as a collateral.

The problem with the Greek state is that most of its rich people possess ships.  They are not present on the territory of the state

This is uncharted waters for Greece. They knew joining the Euro Union would fill the pockets of corrupt 'established ' officials in Government.. the pockets have been filled ...now these corrupt people can walk away knowing full well that Nationalism can cover their corrupt past... Job well done...

I agree with you as long as a private debtor is involved. However when the debtor is public, in this case a country, the game changes. Because the creditor has no means at  all to get the money back. Should Germany now invade Greece and collect? What if the USA does not pay their debt back?

Of course the creditors to Greece were dumbasses, they were politicians!

The debtor Greece has plenty of equity: gas fields, gold reserves and LOTS OF ISLANDS they could sell to pay off the debt. Crete alone would fetch the 320 billions owed. However Greece is dishonest and dishonorable to the bone, that they expect a debt cut instead of paying back the money they were given! 

In fact it is both, of course.   Debt has nothing to do with morality.  Debt is worth what the creditor can enforce to obtain.  As such, as a creditor you take a certain risk by writing out a loan.  If you do not know how to enforce paying back, then the risk is all yours.  There are two parts to "enforcing to pay back":
1) there must be something that can be paid back.  If the other one is broke, there's nothing to be taken
2) there must be enough force to convince the other to pay it back (or you have to go and take it with force).

If those two conditions are not satisfied, as a creditor, you're a dumb ass, and your losses are your "rightly risk".

As a debtor, you should pay back your debt, if it is advantageous to you.  Otherwise, you don't.  This means that the creditor has means to make life actually worse when you don't pay back your debt, rather than when you do. If your creditor doesn't have those means of pressure, you better don't pay back your debt.
Of course, another part of "life is worse when you do not pay back" is your credit worthiness. If you don't pay back your debts, you will have more and more difficulties making new creditors believe you will.  So not paying back also costs you some reputation as a debtor.

As a debtor, you should make the balance between all that before deciding to pay back or not (at least, if you can).

A loan is a gamble: the gamble by the creditor that the debtor will pay back.

varoufakelakis is basically saying: you left your car unattended, so it is YOUR fault I stole it

it is not greeces fault to borrow lots of money they cannot pay back, and enjoy sweet life, it is the BANKS and EU's fault to lend out that money

just shows how morally broken this country is. 

Merkel no longer controls the process. Greece never should have gone into the deal, but more importantly, they were given an exchange rate far better than reality at the time. If the rate were an accurate assessment of their economy, though, they would not do it and that is not what Germany and France wanted.

Yeah, the fact is that you can have it nice stashed away, probably with only a small chance of somebody finding out about it. And I just wonder why the tax evaders haven't really figure that out. Or maybe they did, it's just that the scare of price volatility actually turned them away. I imagine if this doesn't become problem, bitcoin would be an attractive way to hide the stash. 

I think any government should target tax evaders!
There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Of course on the other side of the spectrum, tax evaders will find a friend in Bitcoin.

Just my thought, although they have not done this yet but maybe they are waiting for the right time. Who knows

Guys you have no idea on corruption. Corruption is a good thing because it takes away the resources (money) from the government to do evil stuff.

Politicians are always thieves so dont blame them.

But an efficient government is your worse nightmare, because then the government has total control over the population and thus its total tyrrany.


I`d much rather have an utterly corrupt govenrment where politicians steal and loot all they get (they do that anyways) instead of having a stalinist-dictatorship with total surveillance and population control. 

Of course no government is the best.

How many tax evaders are there in Greece?
Considering no one with a fixed salary can do it, only business owners can. So how many successful business managers are there in the whole Greece?
Not many, I guess.

They're just an bunch a losers trying to hide their global failure behind the curtain of a few black sheep, but Greece's problems are much larger than a few people evading tax.

The greeks will be protected from hunger, because they have a large blue market.

Well they should have been targeting their tax evaders this whole time. One could even argue that if the people of Greece actually paid the taxes that they owed that it could have at least postponed their inevitable bankruptcy.....


Now a Bail-in aka "hair cut" would be a completely different situation, that could start turning first world countries to cryptocurrencies as a safe haven for wealth.

They have nothing to lose by asking for more credit.
It is a dangerous game of chicken (finding out who blinks first) being played by Greece, as they know that a Greek default would have wide spread consequences.

I think they are buying time and hoping for another bailout from another country. They should sell some of their assets and be done with it. They are so far in debt and beyond the point where anything can be done to save them.
The government sold them out and they are stuck with the bill. ^very sad^

I don't fear a contagion, yet, but it's terrible solving that Greek problem takes so much time. The longer it takes to cure, the longer the recovery.

Syriza, like some said they are buying time and waiting for other similar-minded parties to win in other countries to create more pressure against Troika. If even then Troika keeps pressing them i see a realistic scenareo where a lot of south euro countries leave.

Greece had to choose between go out of euro and create their own money (with huge inflaction) or stay in euro accepting the conditions. Syriza choosed euro, so they should work more and talk less.

Varoufakis knew that he wouldn't follow with Merkel's commandments after accepting the extra 4 months or so to keep applying the troika's measures, he's just getting more time. It will end up in Greece leaving the Euro anyway, they are waiting for other countries elections to create presure.

Varoufakis said that you can not run an economy with surplus over any lenghth of time, the economy would crash. I happen to agree (for welfare states), the subjects will not accept it. The consequence is that a welfare state is not sustainable, they will all have to go at some point.

I know such types. Some years ago one man bought a large part of land in the center of my home town and built a giant complex with a mall, a hotel and a number of restaurants and underground car parks and stuff. A normal people would be called rich if they owned an apartment in that complex, so building the whole thing required really big sum, comparable to a city's yearly income.
If you have this kind of money you can ignore the law, you snap your fingers and everything gets taken care of just like that.

I live in a so called 1st world country but no joke these guys out of 20 arcades own 15+, 10 night clubs they own 7+, the hotels loads of homes it is crazy they own a whole sea front main source of income for the town. I have to add they have worked to get there but they have also been very dodgy and evaded stupid amounts of tax, i am a plasterer and have worked for a few of the family's and they even try getting the cheap rate for quality work such greed. The saying the rich get richer and poor get poorer is very true and now that will be until the end of time

Where are you from? I heard the corruption is the highest in the poorer countries. In EU those are the ones that used to be sucked dry by the Soviet Union.
There's a saying that the rich are getting richer while the poor are getting poorer. Those rich guys will always be able to afford a lawyer if they get caught or bribe someone, while the poor will be made into scapegoats and lose everything.

Without pointing to the minority, where i live they have ways around paying there taxes. They are the wealthiest in my area they own pretty much the main source of income of the town it is quite scarey to be honest. Not surprised they are now targeting these tax evaders maybe my country should do the same its ridiculous. 

"Account data at inspectors’ full disposal"

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_15/03/2015_548234

Big brother is here.  When will government's open their books for us to see?

Greek like to have a lot of stuff from the governement but not pay much taxes.

If they default, it is going to be economic chaos for Europe and possibly the world, not just Greece.
If they stay with the Euro and take hard decisions to ensure payment, it is going to be economic chaos and hardships just in Greece.

They know that and are playing hardball. 

I think if you just look at the numbers, it is only a matter of time before they outright default. It's a dog and pony show to keep liquidity in their banks and roll over their current debt right now.

Next stop capital controls. Then the fat lady comes out.

It would help if they create a culture of tax compliance, at least now. While tax evasion may have been rampant in the past, it is really hurting the country now. Nothing wrong in going after the tax cheats. 

The main problem is Greeks are not the only ones with a dying economy. Look what's going on in Spain for instance and it's even worse in the countries with high migration rates like Romania or Poland.
These countries are basically fighting the decreasing income (due to decreasing population and high unemployment) by increasing taxes. It won't work for long

Not just richer people, a considerable percentage of Greeks abuse the system, like, a lot, they were living the dream, getting subsidies. working 5h days and evading taxes, how were they paying for this? Debt!

Europeans in the Union were the ones paying for their life style...

they should have targeting evaders much better before their crisis not only now, prevention is always better, but no one "use" it apparently

Anyway, rising taxes or fighting tax evasion will have the same outcome: less money for consumption. Fewer goods will be sold, and income from VAT will fall. Greece is possibly doomed. The risk is that they might look at Russia or China for help. The Greeks would then learn the hard way that nothing is free.

What will it solve? .....should be the question.

You can gather more tax, if you find the tax evaders, BUT ....... if the government corruption and bad spending continue... you would end up with the same result.

More tax income only delay the problem...... the solution would be to address the bad spending habits and the insatiable need for debt.

This is the heart of the problem of public finance: you get personal advantage (re-election) if you spend other people's money (taxpayer money).  This is why politicians like so much the Keynesian deficit-spending idea (without taking the reverse of the Keynesian doctrine which is contraction when things go well)  Each time the one deciding is not the one paying, you will have abuse, corruption, and financial disaster in the long run.

The only way I can see public finance controlled, is with a strictly no-debt system: all expenses of the past year make up the bill, and are then, with a distribution key which is part of the political choice, billed to the taxpayers.  If you are then a politician distributing a lot of "gifts" to your electors, then they will find it on their taxpayer bill at the end of the year.

If you "invest" in billions of "social welfare", then at the end of the year there will be a line on the bill where you pay your tax contribution due to that welfare program.

Austerity is a great thing, people/households do it all the time by going on a budget.

The problem is getting an entire Nation (or a significant majority) to agree to and adhere to it. Politicians only get praise if the implement laws and new programs, these often cost money...Government spending is bred with new politicians. Who wants to get elected to office and then just monitor what everyone did before he/she took the office? No one, it's a human weakness.

Exactly, they are into wealth destruction. It isn't looking good.

The discussion is always about austerity, the problem is that austerity is a politician word, which has two meanings: Smaller state, or the people consuming less. Obviously, when you create wealth and prosperity, the people can consume more (and save more if they want). When the state consumes more through absurd giant projects ellegedly for the public good, and give out free stuff to secure their power, the opposite happens: poverty.

UK stayed out thanks to old Maggie T. You're not going to see her praised any time soon for it mind you.

I hope this greek shit show comes to an end this year, it's tiresome to watch. Not to mention it chipping against what I'm paid in EUR!

All the smart money has left Greece- they're done and the sooner that the rest of Europe comes to grip with this the sooner the healing can begin.

Another thing Maggie had to say about socialism... Something about other people's money running out eventually

It's not nice what the Euro has done to the southern European economies. If you're interested then there are interesting articles about optimal currency zones that should clearly have been held as warnings about exactly this sort of thing. I think it's why the UK stayed out, though apart from an apparent liability for Greek debts, we would actually be in one of the stronger positions, just like Germany is.

This. Richer people (the ones that should be paying taxes) have the resources to find out loopholes, meanwhile people that are born poor scammed by life since day one, are the ones that pay heavier if they try to evade taxes.

Richer people have the resources and advisers to play the system.

Not just evading taxes, also playing the system to get subsidies/benefits.

I don't understand how Greek doctors can evade taxes. Do they not have a government organized health care like the other developed European countries, where all money passes either through the government or through regulated insurance companies.

Tax evasion sounds like the national sport there. If a culture of non paying develops then a price eventually has to be paid further down the line. That's happening now. It's shit, but taxes ain't for fun. Some of them do go towards creating a functioning country.

This. Lol at avoiding taxes but then making use of social health care, roads constructed with other tax payeer moneys and so on. It sucks paying taxes but thats how it goes. Not gonna lie when all these filthy rich motherfuckers avoid paying I also feel tempted.

Indeed.  It should be realized that if the state becomes more effective at fighting tax evasion, that corresponds economically to an increase in the effective fiscal pressure, even though the official rates didn't change.

You can see it like this: if in a toy economy, the official tax rate is 20%, but everybody is cheating by a factor of 2, then the effective fiscal pressure is only 10% (it is what is effectively lost by economic agents for consumption and investment to the state).  If the state now does a crack down on all cheaters, and after that, people are not cheating any more, then the fiscal pressure now equals the official fiscal pressure, that is, 20%.  The effective fiscal pressure went up a factor of 2, and people really have less to consume and to invest, even though on paper, our country didn't change a iota to its tax rates.

they should always target tax evaders , no matter the situation, they are just more desperate now, and they need money...

There will always be individuals or companies who attempt to evade taxes, only choice is to reduce this to a reasonable amount.  You also need to ask yourself why are these individuals or companies evading taxes in the first place?  Simply corrupt individuals?  People not happy with government waste?  Or small businesses who CAN NOT survive at the current tax rates and would have to close up shop?

It's a double edge sword and a reasonable balance will need to be found.  On the flip side its sad to see no talk about job creation and what to do with the 50% unemployed under the age of 30.

They brought this upon themselves really. That is what you get by taking to eurozone country with already bad economy, lot of debt and weak own currency. Euro as currency caused huge increase of prices what in following years made people evade Greece as potential place of interest during trips around the Europe. And now Greek government will probably steal money from everyone's accounts to patch itself and raise the economic rating.

Why is it so wrong to try to target tax evaders ? Its the right thing to do if your society has rules to which all business owners must provide more or less fair share of their profit for the benefit of society itself?
Leaving tax evaers alone only brings injustice to people that are paying their share fair, so i wouldnt call this robbing the people just yet.
Its positive that they are trying to bring order to their state, its about time, because if they fail to do that, then you will have another Cyprus theft.

cheers

I would have hoped the Greek government would focus on wealth creation, but that's clearly not the case. I wouldn't like to be in Greece to start a business.

they are halfway into anarchy, which is fine

Greece fakelaki system worked OK before they joined the EUR

there are alot of smaller 3rd world countries comparable to Greece and we don't worry about them, because they are not in the EUR and do not owe other European countries 320 000 000 000 EUR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Grexit should have been done in 2011  

Their problem is far more vast than tax evasion, corruption is rampant also.

Well, if you are using social provided services like social healthcare they you have to pay these taxes. If you are using private services, then they should give the option to not pay said tax.

Weirder things will happen in Greece. It's just the beginning. People there start to realize that their money isn't safe.

Greece banks are losing hundreds of millions of euro's every week, because people are trying to empty their bank accounts before the Greece government does it for them.

You work your entire life to save yourself a good bit of money and still it's not fully yours.

If was a Greece citizen, then I would definitely dump some of my money into Bitcoin. With Bitcoin you can say "I finally OWN my money!"

I don't think Greece have ever not targeted tax evaders or turned a blind eye to it just like pretty much every other nation doesn't (well, unless you've got connections. And the gov might not be able to take your coins away but they'll try and if they can't they can always lock you up in prison. You've always got to play by their rules sadly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ce9Z7sktWY

Greece has had to come up with a broad range of ways to increase its income in the wake of the economic crisis.Boosting tax receipts and cuts to public spending were demands laid out by the troika in return for financial support.Al Jazeera's John Psaropoulos reports from Athens.

This is what bitcoin is all about! the way to save your hard earned money without fear of somebody taking it away!

Just hodl on to your bitcoins!