Topic: Hacks & puppets & forks - how to destroy bitcoin (Read 3441 times)

The biggest catalyst that'd make BTC price skyrocket higher is simply move all your BTC to your PERSONAL bitcoin wallet (move off of Coinbase, Binance, Bitfinex, Square, Robinhood, CBOE/CME futures).

Fractional reserve, BTC lending, rehypothication is a bitch and can perpetually create no floor for prices by establishment market manipulators.

Plus if history is any indication, one these avenues will blow up and wreck the "holders" of bitcoin that really wasn't there because they failed to take such advice.

Take it off the exchanges and see what happens.

We should stop them and take concrete measures to cope. Particular care should be taken with sources of danger. It can infiltrate into our account, so we should learn how to protect the account. Try not to let them invade, appropriating property.

Hackers will infiltrate the client's account to steal information and steal customer's wallet that is how hackers can attack pirate bitcoin so we should be careful and cautious.

A way to manipulate bitcoin price bids/demand would be to release and popularize services around the world that has users do the number one big NO-NO for Bitcoin, has users trust another entity to hold custody of their bitcoin. Today, you see many examples of that where users are keeping their Bitcoin in exchanges which exposes them to hacks, or many services that do not allow users transfer ability of the Bitcoin; examples:
Traded Bitcoin Futures (cash settled and they dont give bitcoin delivery!)
Revolut
Square Cash App
Circle Invest App
Robinhood
Many other 'custody' examples in developing countries
hack.
Stay away and secure/safely backup your own Bitcoin in your own wallet.
A bigger supply can be used to flood market for short selling supply if there's any degree of certainty of an amount of bitcoin that wont be touched at these custodial entities. Ever wonder how Gold and other commodity prices are manipulated?

i've felt it was important to add the PSA and alert people:
DO NOT LEAVE YOUR BITCOIN ON COINBASE

Very funny, how different ppl define what they feel a 'hack' is.

I d start, with the static max_block_size parameter, making this into the consensus protocol first of a (planned) rapidly / dynamically growing social system.

2nd checkout, what SW really does and how it's implemented into the protocol layer

3rd Deploy that as a SF

4th  LN ( and hope , hope for fixing companies scaling issues with 2nd layer to come)

5th legal issues with all that tech on top of first / initial layer

(Telling ppl to keep small blocks to further dictate them run RasPi nodes for MAX decentralization, but forcing them to recon only 3 MAX fee TX of some huge central clearing counter parties CCCP  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_counterparty_clearing on 2nd layers ...)
___

This mainly addresses only the tech part, and we could dive into economics, legal, social and scientific (dynamic math modelling) parts as well, but getting it up to a widely acceptable science / business level i.o. to define and remove such hacks is beyond of what can be achieved here or with any individual hack-posts.

'Please feel free to understand, discuss and constructively criticize this post.

Bitcoin was built to be the world's peer to peer crypto cash layer, you think thats still on track with BTC + LN + AtomicSwap (= bridge to other crypto) + all that forks that are done, cause BTC was not inclusive enough?

IMO BCH is much more willing to be exactly that scarce world currnency / cash and allows all such needed things happens on a singel chain, in a very inclusive way that will not further dillute the cryptoverse by means of real Bitcoin scarcity.  Thats exclusive

Can you please re-phrase your question or elaborate on what it is you are trying to ask?

I don't understand your question.

Bitcoin will remain scarce as its max supply is 21million coins and there have been millions of burned coins (addresses that will never spend). Small finite supply in an infinite fiat supply world.

What can you conclude about Bitcoins use cases and scarcity on this ?

Who's excited about Lightning network and decentralized exchange   "cross-chain atomic swaps"

Hope this is helpful - there are fundamental points above.

Please comment if helpful or to raise any questions or disagreements.

The opposite of what you state is true. The forks reveal themselves worthless, especially BCH.
The price demonstrates more worth over time. Altcoins, like BCH and other scamcoins are more susceptible to hacks. Bitcoin's code has been unbreakable and running for 9 years.

Ahem, each of these 'forks' are just scamcoins - really, as time goes on, they will be lost in the sea of altcoins. Why?

Simple: with each derivative fork the new altcoin makes itself much weaker in ALL of these ways:

-less hashing power than the real Bitcoin network. Thus new scamcoin will be less secure.

-less open, global development of protocol codebase than real Bitcoin. Thus new scamcoin slow to innovate and be more vulnerable.

-less (true) independent full nodes on the network than real Bitcoin. New scamcoin more susceptible to attacks on protocol and hijacking.

-more concentration of coins to fewer individuals than the real Bitcoin network. Thus new scamcoin becomes more unfair with time.

-more geographic concentration of mining than the real Bitcoin network. Thus the new scamcoin will have more points of failure.

-more hardforks demonstrate all these points moreso with each iteration to global public. Thus new scamcoins lose value vs Bitcoin every year.

-is just another altcoin

And ridiculous hardfok that are happening with the coin, first with that haunt that calls BBCHASH, Bitcoin Diamond that already is more than 50 dollars and now for December we have three more the called "Super Bitcoin" should leave in the block 498.888 around 15 of December, while Bitcoin Platinum and even more bizarre Bitcoin Cash Plus are expected to take place December 23 and 31, respectively. Man, this is putting an end to the currency's reputation, I do not know how the community accepts that.

Good word, i like your opinion.  You are not missing anything.
If fork make bitcoin and blockchain even better why not? Why people like bitcoin but dont like bitcoin would be better?
Confusing.

BCH is no threat to bitcoin as it has multiple centralized points of failure [central development team that can make coin worthless if they go away, AND also more centralized mining AND has more centralized protocol with larger block-size which requires more capital investment to mine (only the richer)] - easy to point out scamcoin.

Bitcoin is the king of store of value asset that can be easily moved across borders without any intermediary/3rd party that unlike gold, stocks, bonds, real estate, is largely free from any central bank led price manipulation.

Bitcoin is ultimate store of value and its popularity has strengthened over time and maximizes value compared to any other altcoin...why?:
If it can be shutdown, and have assets frozen by a bank or government, there would be no value
If it wasn't secure, there would be no value.
If it wasn't immutable, there would be no value.
If it wasn't globally distributed, there would be no value.
If it wasn't so strong, open-source decentralized and unstoppable, there would be no value.
If it wasn't so scarce, there would be no value.
If it was easy to spam transactions, there would be no value
If it was stopped after all major banks on Earth banned in 2013 to today, there would be no value. (say "bitcoin" when transacting and watch the block of the transaction. simple fix=never mention "bitcoin").
If it didn't have the history of 8+ years (and still no hacker can exploit bitcoin blockchain), there would be no value
If its development wasn't decentralized around the world, there would be no value
If there was central "leaders" or foundation for the coin, there would be no value
If it was exactly like fiat and only did transactions, there would be no value.

Bitcoin has all the characteristics needed combined to make the most value and increasing more than any other financial-asset option coming from the manipulated fiat central-banking debt-system.

i also believe forks will Destroy bitcoin in future especially BCH  .

but price will destroy bitcoin more than hacks

Bumping for newbies as we now have a market cap easily exceeding $160 Billion for Bitcoin. There's interesting resources on the OP.

Your comment has reigned true and prophetic with most everything htat's been rumored about bitcoin all throughout 2017!

Bitcoin has withstood many numerous forks and have outlasted, outclassed, and outnumbered any of these competing altcoins. I'll bet it'll be same story for future forks.

There are some great educational merits in this post that I hope are helpful to those new or learning. If so, please reply here.

Or is it the reputation of Bitcoin is getting stronger with the passage of time?

Amongst the fields of a plethora of forks from Bitcoin and thousands of cryptocurrencies to compete with Bitcoin....Bitcoin has always remained the king.
Maintained for many years even as hundreds of other cryptos fade away. Right?

Thank you for posting...your writing is a bit confusing, but I think I might understand what you are saying? Bitcoin has become a bit less volatile as the years go on but please be aware of the ever present big drawdown risk.

For example, currently, part of the selling pressure is online brokerages in the USA are now starting to cut off US investor access to the Swedish Nasdaq Nordic listed Bitcoin ETN fund - suddenly alot of US traders can't have any buy orders on that product.

They are ultimately destroying their own wealth.

Those anti bitcoin are only destroying btc because they did not get a hold of it when it was still very cheap. The bitterness is very present and I know that if only they are holding a huge amount of it, they will be like anyone else who ain't getting tired of making predictions to promote btc.

Bitcoin is the most profitable and strong coin of this era and currently it is impossible to destroy such a valuable coin so those who are thinking to harm it will surely waste their time and bitcoin is now not be effected by rumors because investors are now aware of hatter that they spread this to give loss to bitcoin so no one will do panic selling everyone will join hand to face such situation.

Saving bitcoin is the best way of making the bitcoin of their future and the upcoming days the worth of the bitcoin is increasing more and more. The importance of the bitcoin is getting high so it’s good to make it sure that the bitcoin will be powerfuland it will give you more profit in the future. The value will be high if you will invest and you will buy the high amount of the bitcoin. The importance of the bitcoin will be more than this.

Bitcoin's market cap is currently sitting above $90 Billion.

All the country's central banks and governments have become powerless to stop bitcoin (even despite all big banks for four years training tellers to stop if they hear "bitcoin" to block those transactions ever since 2013 - when will they learn their attempts are futile?)

Effective, True savings vehicle: Bitcoin

Amazing to see global trade growth on localbitcoins as well (scroll down to see all the individual countries:
https://coin.dance/volume/localbitcoins

Reply if you find the post useful, share your thoughts.

Bitcoin has the highest value because of its reputation - if there was no reputation there would be no value.

If it wasn't secure, there would be no value.
If it wasn't immutable, there would be no value.
If it wasn't globally distributed, there would be no value.
If it wasn't so strong, open-source decentralized and unstoppable, there would be no value.
If it wasn't so scarce, there would be no value.
If it was easy to spam transactions, there would be no value
If it didn't have the history of 8+ years (and still no hacker can exploit bitcoin blockchain), there would be no value
If it was exactly like fiat and only did transactions, there would be no value.

Bitcoin has all these together and has the most value and increasing more than anything else coming from the fiat central-banking debt-system.

Though it is still very early adoption by the world population (most people everywhere don't know what it is)...
Bitcoin (the King) has freed, continuing to free, and tomorrow will still free many people globally from the centrally controlled debt-based fiat system that confiscates your wealth with inflation and tax. Bitcoin is a TRUE savings vehicle. Buying Real Estate, Hospital healthcare, Global traveling, College Education gets cheaper as you hold Bitcoin.

And it has become clear that...
Bitcoin CANNOT be controlled.

Bitcoin cannot be made legal. Governments may still attempt to do so.

Bitcoin cannot be made illegal. Governments may still attempt to do so.

Central banks already control and manipulate Stocks, Real Estate, Gold, Interest Rates. Central banks will never have such domination of Bitcoin.

Bitcoin reached escape velocity 4-years ago in 2013 which means it cannot be stopped - cannot make it illegal or legal - governments/banks do not matter.

To fork a lot of discussion about what is happening in order to reduce the time of transactions and reduce their cost. This did not happen. We see banal fight for the money. Nobody cares about reputation. This is very bad. bitcoin loses its primary purpose and became an instrument for speculation. This may make bitcoin bubble. We are going to blame for it. Each of us had something to do with their efforts.

The reputation of bitcoin is getting destroyed slowly because of the forks that has been launching for bitcoin and it seems that it doesn't affect the performance at all because i believe that the reason for having forks are to improve the quality of the coin and to make major improvements that everyone would feel after the launch of fork but right now it is just like making forks that will completely just for money and not improvements.

Highly recommend those who are new/learning to watch this intro bitcoin video:
bitcoin 101:https://youtu.be/Bhe61JaNFLU

Also global money history: history of money/centralbanks: https://vimeo.com/8757743 or link2 https://youtu.be/UrJGlXEs8nI

Why are people on the forum trying to link enemies of Bitcoin to being Satoshi Nakamoto? Doesn't anyone decipher between bullshit sources vs legit sources? Don't they look at history and see people like Mike Hearn and Craig Wright have tried to subvert/destroy Bitcoin?

Do you read what you write before you post? That's alot of confused unrelated things to pull in together. Bitcoin has been around for nearly 10 years and no one in that 10 years has ever been able to successfully hack the Bitcoin protocol and make any Bitcoins nor stop the system from working.

Meanwhile you see everything else in the world seeming to be getting hacked.

Bitcoin reached escape velocity 4-years ago in 2013 which means it cannot be stopped - cannot make it illegal or legal - governments/banks do not matter. Bitcoin cannot be controlled.

On the opposite end of the spectrum the global fiat system broke a couple of decades ago.
Fiat around the world is heavily infested with:
-regulatory burden on fiat banks & system (incredibly costly)
-insurance fraud
-false claims and insurance losses
-unemployment & other welfare costs
-inflating fiat to keep stock market rising and to keep house-prices from collapsing
-financing conflicts, bombs, and "aid"
-stabilize regions after natural disasters
-keeping monopolies with internet access centralized and search engine crawlers centralized
-money laundering
-chargebacks
-frivolous legal costs (lawsuits bogging the system down)
-state-sponsored corruption and unofficial corruption (governments and gangs, banks and conartists)
-retirement obligations (debasement in value to keep up with payments from government or other retirement-obligations)
-fake credit (goods being transacted with credit-loss, replaced by inflation of monetary base rather than bringing perpetrators & source to justice)
-costs of auditors and budgetors and accountants to governments and businesses

Bitcoin, systemically, is free from these burdens.

They've had a lot of success with that. People really believe russia hacked the US elections despite all evidence pointing to an internal leak inside the DNC. People believe there are more than 2 genders simply because of gender fluidity campaigns on tumblr. People believe travel bans designed to keep terrorists out of the country are racist. They believe Trump was planning to put gays and transgenders in concentration camps because social media campaigns spread those lies.

It might seem silly to think our collective lack of knowledge and education could be taken advantage of. Looking around the world however that's exactly what is happening and it does seem to be very effective.

Hacks will surely destroy everything that is up and running online in the internet and bitcoin is not an exemption with this though but bitcoin is reaching its 1st decade anniversary and the recent years for it was tough but it survived so the next years will be more challenging and bitcoin will become more stronger more than ever to all its aspect.

naysayers will tell what they want to spread and they will do it again and again until they die because they are happy to do it but to those who really believe in what great will happen in the future of bitcoin will surely benefit.

Since Bitcoin has reached escape velocity back in 2013 (no government and no banks can ever shut it down), there have been many scare tactics to subvert Bitcoin OR to shake weak-handed newbies from their BTC.

Today's headline (and there'll be plenty more from banks/ceos/governments as the future years come -yet bitcoin will grow and grow);

"JPMorgan CEO Jamie Dimon says bitcoin is a fraud that ... - CNBC.com"
Courtesy of Comcast/General Electric companies.

That is a great point, Bitcoin has been so entrenched and well-established that its King status will never go away. Bitcoin's 10 year anniversary is not that far away and that will be a nice milestone.

You are looking at the immediate consequences. But bitcoin has earned its credibility in the last 8 years. Of course there is inertia. All of the events listed does not add credibility of bitcoin and can really kill the credibility.

Oh wei - did 'real' bitcoin had Segwit or not ?

So a base protocol does not need such specs as SW  or max block size

We are in the middle of finding this out - it's hard work and sadly too much fights.

Hacks.

Barry Silbert companies again tainting a good thing of segwit into hardfork-backdoored-altcoin:

PSA: Beware of S2xGarzik-Coin hardfork (and similar Silbert DCG-backed failures ie Garzikcoin aka BIP 100, Bitcoin Unlimited)
These attacks of using "community" urgency have been relentless since 2015:


People, please stay educated and be mindful of software you are supporting to run a full node.

Although altcoins of XT, Bitcoin Unlimited, Bitcoin Cash, etc have failed to take-over real Bitcoin, please don't be complacent with ramifications of future hard-forks.

From Chainalysis now Skry now Bloq now Segwit2x (Jeff Garzik):

    Founded in 2014, Chainalysis is the leading provider of Anti-Money Laundering software for Bitcoin. With offices in New York and Copenhagen, we work with global financial institutions, like Barclays and Bitcoin exchanges to enable every stakeholder to assess risk in this new economy.
credit: baronofbitcoin

s2x-garzikcoin: Opens door for AML, easy identification, etc. Things so traditional authorities identify you, classify you, and shut you down, FREEZE YOUR ASSETS, lock you up.  Just because they don't like you for not supporting the traditional Bank Swift network or a Bankchain.

Bitcoin's consensus system and natural economic incentives PROTECT the real bitcoin.



Repeated History: Reading references (emphasis mine);
http://www.contravex.com/2015/08/29/the-economics-of-sinking-garzikcoin-aka-bip-100/
Adam T. says:   
August 30, 2015 at 8:49 AM   

“pre-emptive strike” — best characterization I’ve seen yet to describe the odd feeling of urgency from certain parties.
Reply   

    Pete Dushenski says:   
    August 30, 2015 at 10:11 AM   

    Odd indeed. Almost like these overgrown children seriously imagine that Bitcoin didn’t reach escape velocity 2.5 years ago and that they can rewrite history if only they obtain enough “consensus” on social media. Must suck to think that’s how the world works.

Bitcoin has crossed $50B cap and is not so trivial anymore. Also, the market has been clear this week re:August 1st  release of BCC (larger blocksize fork) and BCC has been DUMPED, people getting rid of BCC as fast as they can  and instead buying some real Bitcoin (BTC).


I'll revisit the extensive and increasingly global characteristics of Bitcoin from this thread to update the tally soon.

Just reiterating to watch the bitcoin 101 blackboard series:
youtube: link1 (https://youtu.be/Bhe61JaNFLU)


has anyone here watched it?

There's been much hysteria during 2017 re: coming-deadlines....the first earlier this year around March, and the other being the looming Aug. 1, 2017,

What is the probability that nothing happens...normal Bitcoin stays Bitcoin and most hashing power remains with normal Bitcoin?

In light of recent cyber-attacks enabled by official government-entity backdoors, does anyone question the attempts to attach these evil acts to cryptocurrency since these 'hackers' then ask for payments in such? Wouldn't it be convenient for government-backed entities to set a plan to make things like Bitcoin look bad by using their contractors (hackers for hire) to use these exploits so that subsequently bad publicity would be spread on Bitcoin to general public around the world?

Isn't this made easy by all these global companies using USA-developed (China-made) computing infrastructure which has the backdoors the NSA/CIA requires for having such control?

Amazing how in 3-months bitcoin (mkt cap) approaching $50B so quickly....the level where I say BTC is not so trivial anymore.

True, villainous reputation would be labeled for any entity (or entities) working to attack or take down Bitcoin...but couldn't this same exact thing be achieved without any such labeling by simply changing the rules of the protocol (take-over without traditional mining - ie segwit)? Or even further centralizing need/cost of hardware for mining the protocol (blocksize)?

What is the current total size of the bitcoin blockchain?

Then why would there be a push for blocksizes to go larger? (more susceptible to spam attacks, blockchain bloat, requirement for more expensive capital hardware mining pools)

Why wouldn't there be a push for smaller blocksizes? Shouldn't the protocol decrease blocksize from 1mb to 750kb? (limit spam in a block, reduce bloat, increase decentralization)

It's at $38B, and there aren't a lot of companies that would be able to take on something with that value and destroy it without also destroying the value of the company. Most organizations couldn't even pull something like that off.

I am far more concerned about the power plays and lack of community interest that could result of the recent events dealing with the blocksize, but it's looking like it will be getting resolved so there is a fair amount of hope for that to go to the back burner and solve the issues we've been experiencing.

There exists a great separation of powers by the users, developers, mining network in this decentralized framework of Bitcoin.

Destruction of Bitcoin need not be public nor make an organization villainous, they just need to introduce a proposal to be adopted to tilt this power structure involving change to Bitcoin's protocol (code).

A slight change of this control, and this is all about CONTROL, will open the doorway to begin the destruction of bitcoin.

Even if no change is made to code....another attack potential: central banks can sponsor (lend to "startups"/"entrepreneurs") organizations that'll cause a huge bouts of volatile events to keep away broad-mass-user-base: they would bid up prices like crazy to hold a signification portion of coins, and then unload the coins on the market either all at one time (huge drop in 1 week) or slowly to control volume over-time (ie 3 years of lower prices).

They can destroy bitcoin.

If they want to make it obvious they oppose innovation and progress which benefit civilization & make themselves look guilty.

They usually prefer to be described as philanthropists who donate money to charity and have a net positive effect on society, rather than the opposite.

I'm not certain they want to paint themselves as being villains with mass discontent on the horizon.

IMHO it's also important - the capitalization of Bitcoin - is only 30.000.000.000 $. There are a lot of powerful funds or some companies, how have much more money. So if they want - they can push / pump/ hold / sell. They have enough power to destroy Bitcoin.

Satoshi ... is it you?

Though bitcoins has been facing many problems and almost all solutions being provided have also many loopholes but it will not stop bitcoin from striving and developing itself. Bitcoin will remain stronger than ever and the secret behind that is the support of the community and users. Without the support of people who patronize bitcoin over other cryptocurrencies it would already be dead by now.

Xester, thank you but it sounds to me that you are saying everything you mentioned has a problem?
The proven option with least problems and the solution to the world's money/store of value problem is and has always been bitcoin.

Scalability problems is the main problem that bitcoin will face if the community will decide to accept segwit. I am not against segwit but there are just some things that segwit needs to settle before they can start with bitcoin and that I say is the problem on scalability. Bitcoin unlimited on the other hand is nice but there are many errors and bugs and so it is much safer to stick with segwit as long as they can find a way to settle the problem on scalability.

Its awesome to see how bitcoin has gained a worldwide presence & is increasingly becoming a currency of the people.

Some say the golden days of crypto are far gone, but those results make me excited for cryptos future.

I don't think crypto is truly mainstream yet & don't know if it ever will be, but these results are exciting.

I just know menghasil something of bitcoin

To the point of economics/markets/trading, look at the practical use-case of Bitcoin; a global store of value asset that may be transmitted via a communications channel.

To illustrate how global, I asked which country people were from in this small forum, of those who spoke out, in two days the following tally;
9 responded from Phillippines
5 responded from Indonesia
3 responded from India
2 responded from USA
1 from Ukraine
1 from Bangladesh
1 from East Timor

the above was a count of posters from here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/which-country-are-you-from-here-list-thirty-popular-bitcoin-countries-for-trade-1853019

I held off responding hoping others would reply to the thread.

You make a lot of excellent points. I wish I had something to contribute but not so much.

If I was to apply an economic model to this discussion, I would aim for a type of thermoeconomic context. I believe that's the future and the best model to use.

But to be honest, I'm an amateur when it comes to economics/markets/trading & I've been severely slacking off for a long time now.

Well bitcoin core seems not to be worried...status quo...see article below

http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-on-developers-arent-worried-about-fork/

So if someone can pry bitcoin away from bitcoin core's dead hands fine.till then with only 30% of the market and a hostile
fork it looks to me like they are simply going to ignore the problem and putter along at 1mb blocks etc at their own pace
anyway...price is a non issue..

well cheap coins I guess...hell this kinda stalemate of future of btc this 'what is your bitcoin dev flavor' approach this could go on for 2 more years imho

yeck

@Hydrogen, yes, coin caps play a role. Litecoin, Dash, and also (someone correct me if Im wrong) Ehtereum actually has no set coin-cap (at some point in time in the future, it would lead me to believe that itll behave more like the Euro, US dollar, etc having monetary inflation and with time will biy less goods & services). Please let me know if this helps or not.

Hydrogen! Welcome, and thank you for your participation here.
Here goes:
-ding ding ding! YES! You found one of the special ways to destroy bitcoin, uncap coin-limit; you do this once, then current holders and would-of-been buyers would ask themselves what if there is another more substantial limit increase again in future, and they will all dump in time (not necessarily instantaneously). Bitcoin will be lost in the sea of altcoins and no longer be so unique and different.

Other points:
-Bitcoin has been globalized for years, and this 'globalization' is increasing (during this time BTC coin-limit cap didn't change)
-Bitcoin is divisible to very very small minute fractions. If one Bitcoin were $1 million, me and you can still trade goods in exchange for $10-worth (tiny fraction) of that "expensive" bitcoin 
-A currency: have we all been misled to believe that the money we hold and save is meant to buy less in the future? That is if we have money, we must buy stuff now because that stuff will be more expensive in the future?
-Bitcoin is a currency, it is a 'deflationary currency', limitied in supply so bitcoin goes up in value if there's monetary (fiat) inflation
-Can a sound, store-of-value, unmanipulated deflationary currency go down in value? Yes if the central banks dry up and contract the money supply (this is what they do, they create booms and busts, bubbles and pops), then money would be very scarce where prices would crash for stocks, real estate, commodities, and also deflationary currency (maybe) these things would go down in value and you will see the fiat, like the US Dollar be worth more instead of less. These events don't happen often. It is possible for these to be quick, or be very long, maybe surpass a decade.

I like what OP said on that, here:


They make very good points about bitcoin primarily being a holder of value with stability being a key element of that and lightning transactions being better suited to alt coins or 3rd party solutions.

They are not going to increase the number of bitcoin in the circulation but without doing that we can still buy a cup of coffee using bitcoins. But that will only happen if the confirmation rate will be much faster than before and the miners fee will be lesser and reasonable. Anyway bitcoin is already a global currency since it can cross borders all around the world but it will never replace the fiat currency.

Excellent post, Central.

I have a few questions, if you don't mind answering them.


The price of litecoin has historically been low in comparison to Dash or Ethereum.

Could litecoin's lower price be attributed to its lack of scarcity? Litecoin's 84 million coin cap versus Dash 15 mill.

There's a youtube clip where Roger Ver of bitcoin unlimited says he wants to make bitcoin *more* available to everyone worldwide, to a point where its normal for people to use btc to buy coffee:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIA8w5tfr70

There are also some who support transforming btc into a global currency.

This might be interpreted to imply, their goal is to eventually uncap the btc hard limit on coins and increase supply, which would reduce scarcity.

Am I right in thinking, if reducing scarcity didn't work well for litecoin, it could be catastrophic for btc?

Am I incorrect in thinking a higher btc cap would be necessary for bitcoin to be a truly globalized currency?

The concept of btc globalization seems opposed to some of the points you made.


Very interesting points!

HabBear, thank you for posting but how in the world does what you write tie to the narrative I posted for this thread? Did you skip alot of the reading?

Maybe you can clear up your own question from what I wrote above? Please let me know if there's a point you want elaboration on.

as far as fork is concerned then there are some who are arguing that exchanges will treat fork will create two coins BTC and BTU. The BTU will be recognized as alt coin and NOT as bitcoin. However layman will not be able to understand the difference and might create confusion. This is will create FUD in consumer market ultimately  stopping people from using bitcoin altogether.

Honest, TL:DR.

But the fork is not new news. If the fork is about providing bigger pipes to enable bigger transactions, what's the problem?

Everyone agains the fork feels like people that would rather continuing riding horses when the car was invented.

What am I missing?

Also worth noting, in the past, or today, or in the future there always has been or will be the FUD spreaders saying things like "bitcoin is FLAWED or it needs to be fixed and something needs to be done now!"

hacks.
No, no, no. Bitcoin has worked (in the past, in the present as you read this, and in the future) more beautifully than any of the most optimistic expectations of it from years ago. Worldwide, the ledger has remained intact.

Those in the FUD camp realize the lack of holding-value strength if they were to go into altcoins (alternative cryptocurrencies)...as there's simply no better store of value/investment than Bitcoin. Thus they come knocking on Bitcoin's door, for whatever reason to undermine it, trying to slightly change it into something it isn't.

Worth adding to the above:
Why Bitcoin Will Get Scaling Without Segwit or Large Blocks: https://medium.com/@jimmysong/why-bitcoin-will-get-scaling-without-segwit-or-large-blocks-772799fab021#.loz3dwnlt

bitcoin 101: https://youtu.be/Bhe61JaNFLU
history of money/centralbanks: https://vimeo.com/8757743 or link2 https://youtu.be/UrJGlXEs8nI

To any intelligent observer, it has been apparent that bitcoin’s primary use has emerged to be store of value/investment. Yes, bitcoin’s decentralized/permissionless solution to creating an immutable cryptographically secured database brings a vast array of different potential revolutionary applications not seen since the advent of the internet but again, the primary use has emerged to be store of value/investment. And bitcoin has been so good at this store of value thing that it has become detrimentally successful - enter the (well-funded) hacks and puppets…this includes attacks from the outside and from 'within' - some of which includes spread of (FUD) tangent ideas with coders, media, investors, and within bitcoin community to maybe start an idea of even slight corrupted/inefficient change.

First, please realize no other tool in modern-day finance has been so successful at being an effective savings mechanism which unlike traditional ‘savings accounts’ this bitcoin actually keeps up in value for you to be able to afford higher cost of rent, education, healthcare, vacations, etc. over time due to the permanently broken central banks system in the world (combined this with the contrast of Bitcoin's beautiful combination of scarcity-a ceiling of 21mill coins, immutable, decentralized, permissionless->not controlled/influenced, opensource, most secure hashing power, and being established/developed & liquid). This effective savings tool of bitcoin is made accessible to the 99% of us and cuts to the core of exposing the flaw of the central bank fiat system with its funny-money creation out of thin air paper/credit-currencies benefiting the privileged institutions and then last to benefit would be the rest of us. Over time, bitcoin exposes the corrupt....It exposes the flaws of fraudulent funneling of extra credit/paper-currencies created by central banks (the yuan, us dollar, euro, indian ruppee etc)…now think, even those privy to any fraudulent funneling of funny-money (for example funds used to subvert/attack bitcoin), any of these individuals will see what’s going on and understand something like bitcoin as an alternative being effectively immune to games like creating fiat out of thin air (to fund attacks at whims of bankers)....even these individuals, these 'bad-actors' themselves would...buy bitcoin! Bitcoin changes the paradigm of central-bank funny-money (Bitcoin is the anti-funny-money warrior: open & fair)…and it has taken off…and in 2013 this caught the attention of the central banks who by definition, have nearly unlimited systemic resources and influence (think governments, centralized search engines / webcrawlers, monopolies on centralized telecoms ISP providers, hardware/chip manufacturers, software developers, centralized social media platforms, exchange conartists).

Even if a protocol corruption of Bitcoin does not happen anytime in the next couple of years, it’s the threat that an attack on this pure beautiful store of value system to become slightly different raises the question…is it possible that someday that the groups influencing bitcoin (those controlling mining or those involved with coding development, or the rest users that buy/transacting in bitcoin) would (either out of ignorance/misunderstanding or out of vested-interest to undermine bitcoin) start demanding (even slight corrupted) changes that may contradict the store-of-value that bitcoin is???

That is the big question...that if the answer starts looking like yes…then value would plummet as bitcoin no longer be seen as a store of value but would eventually turn into another alt coin (i.e. Bcash, Dash, Ethereum) that can do many amazing things but not the primary one store-value that attracts a real market as it has these past few years. This scenario would cause the price to be zero-bound (compared to what we’ve been accustomed to with bitcoin today).

If the answer to that question is no (that you reading this, this community, software coders, mining operators, investors, everyday folk, work to stay educated on the above and act to keep the integrity of this bitcoin system and our computing access)…then even a $50 billion market cap would still be seen as trivial in the financial assets arena where one bitcoin can easily go multiples above $5,000 USD...as the years pack on and integrity remains intact, the price would be infinity-bound.

It is appropriate at this point to bring back some old-school sentiments: proudhon song: link1 (https://vid.me/Jvql) or link2 (https://youtu.be/A7TuFy0fcuw)

How can a $50 billion market cap be trivial or seen as under-the-radar?
see here: updated link (http://www.visualcapitalist.com/worlds-money-markets-one-visualization-2017/)
[old]link1 (http://i1.wp.com/money.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/all-the-worlds-money-and-markets.png?w=1346) or [old] link2 (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/75/9b/63/759b63f98e8569498bee62738fda954b.jpg)

These ideas are kinda interesting (or i think you’re a paranoid idiot), can you point me to better presentable information about bitcoin i can share with others?
Bitcoin 101: link1 (https://youtu.be/Bhe61JaNFLU)

What about bigger block-size?
If there were attackers spamming transactions, it is a lot more digestible to withstand 1mb blocks, but bigger blocks could open door for bigger spam, larger bloat of the blockchain - hindering small folk and consolidate power to the well resourced.
Also, say if most the mining competition were to go-away for some reason, you or myself can take a standard mining hardware and internet connection and be able to mine-away with a 1mb block.
..if you were to multiply this to 8mb block, or even larger, this becomes a lot more difficult over time and our standard internet connections would begin to be much less adept for throughput required.
Such a move in block-size would again consolidate power to the well-resourced.
hack.

What about “scalability” doing many many fast-transactions/lightning network?
Lightning network on Bitcoin will address any complaints over scaling, it is slowly being rolled out beginning in 2018. Even aside from this, there are many options for 'scaling' and none of them have to involve changing bitcoin. With fiat you have outside counterparties assigning responsibility for fast coffee transactions, i.e. Visa network or MasterCard network. Come up with a counterparty solution or let another coin become a credit-card or have a startup either become a trusted solution or develop a sidechain or some trustless solution.
Last I checked, its been clear that many of us around the world have been able to send/receive bitcoin with no issue - as so many of our friends have been doing in Japan, India, Russia, Greece, America, China, Nigeria, various South American countries, the UK. all around the world bitcoin transactions have been happening for already for years and are happening even as i type this.
Fully On-chain scalability "solutions" forced upon bitcoin protocol code would destroy bitcoin’s primary use of store of value.
Myth: "Bitcoin doesn't scale" - LOL
hack.
(Segwit is okay but not Segwit2x or any other useless derivative forks)

A way to manipulate bitcoin price bids/demand would be to release and popularize services around the world that has users do the number one big NO-NO for Bitcoin, has users trust another entity to hold custody of their bitcoin. Today, you see many examples of that where users are keeping their Bitcoin in exchanges which exposes them to hacks, or many services that do not allow users transfer ability of the Bitcoin; examples:
Traded Bitcoin Futures (cash settled and they dont give bitcoin delivery!)
Revolut
Square Cash App
Circle Invest App
Robinhood
Many other 'custody' examples in developing countries
hack.
Stay away and secure/safely backup your own Bitcoin in your own wallet.
A bigger supply can be used to flood market for short selling supply if there's any degree of certainty of an amount of bitcoin that wont be touched at these custodial entities. Ever wonder how Gold and other commodity prices are manipulated?
DO NOT LEAVE YOUR BITCOIN ON COINBASE


Priceless info on how money and central banks work: the money masters: link1 (https://vimeo.com/8757743) or link2 (https://youtu.be/UrJGlXEs8nI)
Competition is good. centralized control/monopolies are bad.
One random tidbit from this was the last big country that successfully eliminated a central bank (and did this multiple times) has been…believe it or not, America. But the most recent establishment of a central bank in America, called the 'Federal Reserve' has sunk its claws in for now over 100 years.
If you want more, listen to lectures or read from the great Murray Rothbard (https://www.mises.org/profile/murray-n-rothbard)

What about ethereum with that ether?
ethereum is an amazing application/contract technology and funding tool for mainly scam ICOs which now in 2018 is being cracked down upon by the SEC, i'd suggest it not as a use for store of value like bitcoin. two different things. ethereum is permissioned allowing central-authority styled intervention at times by key stakeholders/groups…. but bitcoin is permissionless, decentralized control…pure to word immutable and doesn't have such key stakeholders groups that can hijack the network/protocol.

What about this other alt-coin or blockchain?
Most are scams - lookup discussions on altcoins/scamcoins. I’m seeing an article via google with title “99% of blockchain startups are bullshit”

WHERE ARE THE TRUSTLESS DECENTRALIZED EXCHANGES?
Any others picking up ground besides locabitcoins? talk about lack of options!
[edit] ...or is decentralized exchange almost here? https://cointelegraph.com/news/segwit-first-steps-to-ecosystem Cross-Chain Atomic Swaps (pick any two? LTC-DCR-VTC-BTC)

Who was Satoshi Nakamoto?
In my opinion the brains behind the team Satoshi Nakamoto lay in someone who was a very modest, gifted, and a generous handicapped man.
EVERYTHING makes sense if David Kleiman was Satoshi Nakamoto. Here’s why: (https://seebitcoin.com/2016/05/everything-makes-sense-if-david-kleiman-was-satoshi-nakamoto-heres-why/)


Never trust another person or company or exchange with your bitcoin. see mt. gox, cryptsy, shutdown China-exchanges, many other scams.


hacks (these people may have been well-meaning previously...but people change...):
Mike Hearn : “the "Bitcoin experiment" has "failed." goes on to Ethereum an app coin.
Hearn - Big Bank Bitcoin Bully - https://medium.com/@tradertimm/hearn-big-bank-bitcoin-bully-c61531c082e#.okh9viyze
Craig Wright - desperately claimed to be Satoshi & then flees fraud trying to file a bunch of IP patents! LOL!
Mark Karpeles
Paul Vernon
Josh Garza
Roger Ver
Jeff Garzik (2017 recent; hard forking BTC1 / segwit2x)
"Jeff Garzik wants you to connect to his Bitcoin transaction analytics (spy) company Skry, by default, in the SegWit2x fork. Jeff is a sneaky snake!":https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/6n9grc/jeff_garzik_wants_you_to_connect_to_his_bitcoin/
Barry Silbert (and his DCG portfolio of companies-ie Coinbase, Bitpay, sponsoring ilk of Jeff Garzik characters)

Even if you never to touch a bitcoin, please consider keeping your deposits with a smaller community bank or credit union and NOT any of the larger banks in your country. a shift in deposits, go a long way in control and power.

BTC1HXUWBD28MgYs3iQzkbT5UkfteSrrYX7ng

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Bitcoin reached escape velocity 5-years ago in 2013 which means it cannot be stopped - cannot make it illegal or legal - governments/banks do not matter. Bitcoin cannot be controlled.

On the opposite end of the spectrum the global fiat system broke a couple of decades ago.
Fiat currencies around the world is heavily infested with (whether good or bad):
-inflating fiat to keep house-prices from collapsing
-inflating fiat to keep stock market rising
-financing conflicts, bombs, missiles/aircraft/embassies, and "aid"
-frivolous legal costs (systemic resources wasted on legal threats, settlements, lawsuits bogging down system)
-regulatory burden on fiat banks & system (incredibly costly, lots of labor for each $1 in circulation)
-backstopping insurance frauds
-costs of auditors and budgetors and accountants checking the same thing over in governments and businesses (& still suspect)
-big insurance loss-events
-unemployment & other welfare costs
-stabilize regions after natural disasters
-keeping monopolies with internet access and information centralized and search engine crawlers centralized
-officially sponsored "money laundering"
-backstopping credit chargebacks
-state-sponsored corruption and unofficial corruption (governments and gangs, banks and conartists)
-retirement obligations (debasement in value to keep up with payments from government or other retirement-obligations)
-fake credit (goods being transacted with credit-loss, replaced by inflation of monetary base rather than bringing perpetrators & source to justice)
-using enforcement labor to freeze accounts and assets and take away your money

Bitcoin, systemically, is free from these burdens.

(longtime reader, first time poster)
Hope is here
https://youtu.be/ip4Q1pbrYDg  - Avicii Broken Arrows