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Topic: Hard forks and Consensus Networks: Meta Questions and Limitations (Read 471 times)

legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1024
Everything Ver and Andresen say about hardforks is FUD. It's simply a pretext for their true intention: Grabbing for power and establishing a government-friendly, centralized Bitcoin. The motives: Greed and narcissism. We can all be happy that their plan has failed so far.

Bitcoin Core developers have found an intelligent and resource-sensitive way to solve the scalability issue. With SegWit, LightningNetwork and moderate blocksize increases, Bitcoin will be able to efficiently handle mainstream adoption without putting decentralization - the foundation of Bitcoin's value - at risk. The recent release of Bitcoin Core 0.13.0 is a milestone in that regard.

ya.ya.yo!
legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4788
LOL

consensus is the agreement of rules.
bad data is data that does not follow the rules..
data following or not following the rules is a separate argument to what the rules should be
this does not mean the rules cannot change if there is an agreement

again consensus=agreement(consent)..
so the rules are not HARD rules that should never change.. but agreed rules, meaning they can change..(and they do change)

and now for the things that should wake you up..

softforks change the consensus rules too.. wake up to that realization!!
softforks already have changed consensus rules.

take a second to hold that thought and let it actually sit in your mind and realise softforks change rules too..
have a cup of coffee and think about it from the logic of bitcoin. before trying to only think about core-dev devotion and dominance..

but here is the kicker.. softforks change the rules.. without any 'opt out' option.
you either agree by upgrading and fully validate the new rules. or if you dont agree. then you are just left being a blind sheep passing on data you cant check.

i know its very mind blowing to core-devotee's and u are probably getting frustrated and angry that i would open your mind to such a thing..

but please dont reply with your core-dev devotee hats on saying you love being a sheep and think that core-devs know whats best and happy they take control and make decisions for people.

instead only think about bitcoin, decentralization and the true meaning of consensus=consent.
think about the ramifications if 6000 nodes had no choice at all because a group of 12 corporate paid devs (and over 90 spell checkers to falsely appear open) were to be deciding everything.

(now i await the usual insults from core sheep, trying to hold core-devs up as kings and future dictators)
newbie
Activity: 27
Merit: 0
This is definitely a properly written article. It was worth reading.

Agreed! Took a lot longer than I expected to get through it, but well worth it. Definitely provides some fresh perspective on this.

literally as soon as Segwit is included in a major release, he says bitcoin is failing to scale, becoming Myspace, blah blah blah.

I've always cut Gavin some slack but his posts in that thread were...LOL. I think he's still wiping the egg off his face.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
This is definitely a properly written article. It was worth reading.

In fact, this is currently a hot topic on r/bitcoin: "Roger Ver - Are you trying to make a name for yourself as the guy who destroys Bitcoin?"
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/505zmq/roger_ver_are_you_trying_to_make_a_name_for/
We should already be labeling him as a traitor. He's a money-chasing fool who can't control their own greed. That's pretty much it.

it's a good read. unfortunately it's probably over the head of most of the sig spamming plebs in this forum. glad to see some people are gearing up for battle. i fucking winced when i saw Gavin talking hella shit in the 0.13.0 release thread on Reddit.
Gavin is obsolete. His developing skills have stagnated and he has been surpassed by the other contributors long ago.

literally as soon as Segwit is included in a major release, he says bitcoin is failing to scale, becoming Myspace, blah blah blah. fucking traitor. tired of these clowns.
Segwit still requires some minor changes that will be released in the minor version 0.13.1 with the activation parameters. However, I do agree with the rest.

let the real devs do their work. Core is delivering bitcoin to the world on a platter.
They should provide us superior developers and code, not cry out to social media because nobody (with a rational mind and/or decent knowledge) supports their views.
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1483
it's a good read. unfortunately it's probably over the head of most of the sig spamming plebs in this forum. glad to see some people are gearing up for battle. i fucking winced when i saw Gavin talking hella shit in the 0.13.0 release thread on Reddit.

literally as soon as Segwit is included in a major release, he says bitcoin is failing to scale, becoming Myspace, blah blah blah. fucking traitor. tired of these clowns.

let the real devs do their work. Core is delivering bitcoin to the world on a platter.
hero member
Activity: 697
Merit: 520
Compare to Roger's arguments:


Bitcoin Jesus Judas gonna Bitcoin Judas.

In fact, this is currently a hot topic on r/bitcoin: "Roger Ver - Are you trying to make a name for yourself as the guy who destroys Bitcoin?"
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/505zmq/roger_ver_are_you_trying_to_make_a_name_for/

I used to give him the benefit of the doubt... but all the fear-mongering, and now financially backing Bitcoin Unlimited and running a BU pool (currently in "testing")... it's too much. Don't remember the exact wording but he said in a recent interview that splitting into multiple networks would be "the best option for Bitcoin."

That's really too much. How the fuck is the world gonna react to multiple Bitcoin networks? Plus that means > 21 million coins (or at least the appearance of that). I'm pretty sure there would be transaction replay across networks (similar to ETC/ETH) unless the hard forkers specifically plan for multiple networks to survive.....

Such a crapshoot. Just leave us alone, Roger. You're killing Bitcoin.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 502
CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!
Full article here: http://cointimes.tech/2016/08/29/hard-forks-and-consensus-networks-meta-questions-and-limitations/

This article has been making the rounds today. Seems appropriate now that Gavin Andresen and Roger Ver are lobbying the industry with their "If we don't hard fork immediately, Bitcoin = MySpace" meme.

Some notable quotes:

Quote
Proponents of hard forks in Bitcoin and Ethereum have sought to replace the definition of consensus with that of “social consensus” – the idea that if most users agree with a certain plan, that it should be enacted even if it breaks the consensus rules. The underlying logic is that if most people agree to a hard fork, the existing consensus can be subverted, and the majority rulers can economically coerce the minority into migrating networks against their will.

Generally, this understates the risks associated with contentious hard forks by falsely assuming that only one blockchain will survive. Of note, opting in to the forked protocol does not revoke your consent to the original protocol’s rules, and individual users may seek to maximize the value of their tokens held on both chains.

After last month’s hard fork, Ethereum users now understand that it is very dangerous to assume that a minority fork will simply die. If users remain on the original network – suggesting existing demand for its newly minted tokens – the original chain will be worthy to rationally mine. In this way, multiple blockchains emerge from a contentious hard fork. As the ETH/ETC debacle demonstrated, speculators can further challenge a hard fork by establishing market demand for the original chain’s token, ensuring a network split by incentivizing miners to secure the original network.

Perhaps more importantly, this method of governance is in direct contradiction with the basic security premises of Bitcoin (or any similar distributed consensus network). Even if we accept the practical argument that the fear of economic loss associated with mining/transacting on the minority chain is enough to force the minority to migrate to the hard-forked network, the idea should be opposed on philosophical grounds. When you opt in to the network, you and all participants enforce the consensus rules. This entails rejecting invalid blocks – not abandoning the consensus rules anytime 51% (or 75%) of miners tell you to. Such attempts to break consensus are an attack on the very idea of participating in a consensus network. If a majority of miners can coerce the network into abandoning the rules every user has agreed to, only by virtue of its hash power, then Nick Szabo is correct to call this “technologically equivalent to a 51% attack.”

Quote
For years, many Bitcoin users have complained about the lack of a “killer app” that promotes Bitcoin adoption to the mainstream. On the contrary, Bitcoin’s “killer app” was released at inception: math-based, censorship-resistant money on a decentralized inflation-controlled ledger. This is Bitcoin’s primary use case; this is what drives demand and serves as a basis for its value. The risk of a network split initiated by a contentious hard fork is a significant threat to that use case, and to the very idea of a cohesive, global ledger. Pieter Wuille elaborates:

“No matter how you determine the switchover date, there is no way of knowing when (and whether at all) everyone changes their full nodes (and perhaps other software), and even very high hash power votes cannot prevent an actual fork from appearing afterwards. At best, people lose the guarantee that their confirmations are meaningful (because at some point it becomes clear that the other side will get adopted, and they need to switch). At worst, a fork persists, and two partitions appear, in each of which you can spend every pre-existing coin. This defeats the primary purpose Bitcoin was designed for: double spend protection.”

Quote
Readers should ask themselves: Do you believe that miners ought to be able to change the rules that we, the users, consented to? If the answer is yes, then you have imbued miners with the power of central banks. Non-mining node operators do not have identical interests to those of miners; non-mining nodes serve as a check on the power of miners. Refusing to trust miners and individually enforcing the protocol’s rules is an individual’s only protection against collusion by miners (or others) against him/her. In the absence of decentralized node validation, there is no effective difference between miners and central banks; there are no rules by which they must abide. If you grant miners authority over consensus rules, you have sacrificed the fundamental security provided by the full node security model – your money is no longer safe. It is tempting to use miner distribution as a voting mechanism, but it simply has no relation to user consent and thus, should have no bearing on the consensus rules.

Quote
To be clear, retaining immutable consensus and therefore favoring soft fork solutions to protocol limitations does not mean that progress nor development must stagnate. On the contrary, in regards to the block size debate, soft forks will allow for incredible improvements to both bandwidth and non-bandwidth scaling without the risks associated with hard forks. Instead of merely allowing more transaction throughput by increasing maxblocksize, we can drastically optimize transaction size to increase capacity through mechanisms like Schnorr signatures. Once malleability fixes are in place, the doors are opened for smart contracts that contribute via non-bandwidth scaling: Lightning Network will allow trustless contracts with no custodial risk, which will directly mitigate mainchain throughput. MAST can further optimize the size of complex smart contracts. Mining pre-validation (weak blocks) can drastically reduce critical bandwidth, resulting in fast propagation / latency mitigation and “weak” confirmations for transactions, addressing concerns over mining centralization in the context of increased throughput. Improvements like committed bloom maps, batch validation and archive nodes can further reduce resource requirements for nodes, mitigating centralization pressures as throughput increases.

Brilliant scaling solutions are before us – solutions which will directly enhance capacity while mitigating the externalities created by increased throughput. Why would we break consensus simply to increase capacity? The idea is absurd!

Compare to Roger's arguments:
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