Have you been tempted to scam? | Bitcointalksearch.org

DannyHamilton

legendary

Activity: 3472

Merit: 4801

Quote from: bitcoinbear on August 31, 2012, 02:51:13 PM

Quote from: DannyHamilton on August 31, 2012, 02:30:53 PM

Quote from: bitcoinbear on August 31, 2012, 02:24:11 PM

If I betray people now, then I get a reward now. If I do not betray people, I might get more reward for a long time.

Note that I stated "assuming the individual believes there will be no personal repercussions after a betrayal". The anonymity currently available allows people to make this assumption and base their decisions on this assumption. Therefore (assuming you hold this belief that there will be no personal repercussions after the betray), there is no reason to believe that you can't "get more reward for a long time", while also "getting a reward now". Betray people anonymously to get your reward now, meanwhile continue any other action that you believe will get you more reward for a long time.

I was thinking more along the lines of a betrayal that would damage the system as a whole, whereas you could use the system for gain if you build it up instead.

You are assuming that just because you choose not to damage the system as a whole, nobody else will either. If you know that someone else is going to damage the system as a whole, then it is to your benefit to do so before they do. You loose by cooperating while someone else gains by taking advantage of betrayal.

There are 4 possible outcomes:

You cooperate, everyone cooperates
You cooperate, someone else betrays
You betray, everyone else cooperates
You betray, someone else betrays.

If there is a built in motivation for betrayal, then human nature assures that you can count on someone else eventually taking advantage of the betrayal action.

This eliminates the 2 options where "everyone else cooperates", leaving only you cooperating and suffering the effects of someone else's betrayal, or you betraying first, and gaining the benefits of the built in motivation for betrayal.

If you are community minded and part of the "systematic human bias towards cooperative behavior" you may choose to cooperate, but it is almost certain that there will be some who are objectively and selfishly purely rational and as such make the betrayal decision to gain what they can before the system is damaged.

silverfuture

legendary

Activity: 947

Merit: 1008

central banking = outdated protocol

Quote from: Raize on August 29, 2012, 03:09:11 PM

I don't take a "death to scammers" approach, but I am a libertarian, and I do believe government should exist to punish fraud. A lot of these scams would, in the presence of a jury, classify as fraud, and punishment should be doled out accordingly.

Would you be open to non-monopoly providers of this service? If competition is beneficial in markets, why not the realm of justice or dispute resolution?

RE: OP
I have a vested interest both financially and philosophically in the bitcoin economy and I would rather add to that economy with productive behavior than harm it.

bitcoinbear

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 500

Quote from: DannyHamilton on August 31, 2012, 02:30:53 PM

Quote from: bitcoinbear on August 31, 2012, 02:24:11 PM

If I betray people now, then I get a reward now. If I do not betray people, I might get more reward for a long time.

Note that I stated "assuming the individual believes there will be no personal repercussions after a betrayal". The anonymity currently available allows people to make this assumption and base their decisions on this assumption. Therefore (assuming you hold this belief that there will be no personal repercussions after the betray), there is no reason to believe that you can't "get more reward for a long time", while also "getting a reward now". Betray people anonymously to get your reward now, meanwhile continue any other action that you believe will get you more reward for a long time.

I was thinking more along the lines of a betrayal that would damage the system as a whole, whereas you could use the system for gain if you build it up instead.

DannyHamilton

legendary

Activity: 3472

Merit: 4801

Quote from: bitcoinbear on August 31, 2012, 02:24:11 PM

Quote from: DannyHamilton on August 31, 2012, 01:35:16 PM

Quote from: HeavyMetal on August 31, 2012, 11:47:58 AM

I will tell you that when people are able to trust each other then conducting business is faster, cheaper and more profitable for all parties involved. The air of distrust that scammers cause result in an increase of cost and difficulty between honest people.

We all pay for it, but I don't think we will ever be rid of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

Cooperation is beneficial to the group, but betrayal is beneficial to the individual. If operating purely rationally (assuming the individual believes there will be no personal repercussions after a betrayal), then objectively betrayal is always more beneficial than cooperation. It would seem that all objective rational individuals would seemingly betray the other.

In reality humans apparently display a systematic bias towards cooperative behavior, much more so than predicted by a theory based only on rational self interested action. Even so, the betrayal motivation is there, and there is enough variety in the human species to ensure that given such motivation, there will probably always be a significant number of individuals that chose betrayal over cooperation.

If I betray people now, then I get a reward now. If I do not betray people, I might get more reward for a long time.

Note that I stated "assuming the individual believes there will be no personal repercussions after a betrayal". The anonymity currently available allows people to make this assumption and base their decisions on this assumption. Therefore (assuming you hold this belief that there will be no personal repercussions after the betray), there is no reason to believe that you can't "get more reward for a long time", while also "getting a reward now". Betray people anonymously to get your reward now, meanwhile continue any other action that you believe will get you more reward for a long time.

bitcoinbear

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 500

Quote from: DannyHamilton on August 31, 2012, 01:35:16 PM

Quote from: HeavyMetal on August 31, 2012, 11:47:58 AM

I will tell you that when people are able to trust each other then conducting business is faster, cheaper and more profitable for all parties involved. The air of distrust that scammers cause result in an increase of cost and difficulty between honest people.

We all pay for it, but I don't think we will ever be rid of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

Cooperation is beneficial to the group, but betrayal is beneficial to the individual. If operating purely rationally (assuming the individual believes there will be no personal repercussions after a betrayal), then objectively betrayal is always more beneficial than cooperation. It would seem that all objective rational individuals would seemingly betray the other.

In reality humans apparently display a systematic bias towards cooperative behavior, much more so than predicted by a theory based only on rational self interested action. Even so, the betrayal motivation is there, and there is enough variety in the human species to ensure that given such motivation, there will probably always be a significant number of individuals that chose betrayal over cooperation.

If I betray people now, then I get a reward now. If I do not betray people, I might get more reward for a long time.

paraipan

legendary

Activity: 924

Merit: 1004

Firstbits: 1pirata

Not worth the trouble when you can gain allot more by being honest. I'm for a free market

max in montreal

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 500

i was told there would be no math...

DannyHamilton

legendary

Activity: 3472

Merit: 4801

Quote from: HeavyMetal on August 31, 2012, 11:47:58 AM

I will tell you that when people are able to trust each other then conducting business is faster, cheaper and more profitable for all parties involved. The air of distrust that scammers cause result in an increase of cost and difficulty between honest people.

We all pay for it, but I don't think we will ever be rid of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

Cooperation is beneficial to the group, but betrayal is beneficial to the individual. If operating purely rationally (assuming the individual believes there will be no personal repercussions after a betrayal), then objectively betrayal is always more beneficial than cooperation. It would seem that all objective rational individuals would seemingly betray the other.

In reality humans apparently display a systematic bias towards cooperative behavior, much more so than predicted by a theory based only on rational self interested action. Even so, the betrayal motivation is there, and there is enough variety in the human species to ensure that given such motivation, there will probably always be a significant number of individuals that chose betrayal over cooperation.

HeavyMetal

newbie

Activity: 42

Merit: 0

I will tell you that when people are able to trust each other then conducting business is faster, cheaper and more profitable for all parties involved. The air of distrust that scammers cause result in an increase of cost and difficulty between honest people.

We all pay for it, but I don't think we will ever be rid of them.

Herodes

hero member

Activity: 868

Merit: 1000

I voted 'Death to all Scammers', but hanging them upside down, then ocasionally dipping them in a bucket of water, blindfolding them and making chain saw sounds around them and similar perverse stuff, would to. I don't see the need to kill them, but really make them learn a lesson. Grin

Some may mend their ways, while others may be beyond repair.

DannyHamilton

legendary

Activity: 3472

Merit: 4801

You are missing an option in your poll. What about those who have actually attempted a scam, either a failed attempt or a successful one? No option there for those people to vote.

Raize

donator

Activity: 1419

Merit: 1015

I don't take a "death to scammers" approach, but I am a libertarian, and I do believe government should exist to punish fraud. A lot of these scams would, in the presence of a jury, classify as fraud, and punishment should be doled out accordingly.

max in montreal

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 500

I have no morals, I do what i think is right for me most of the time, but this it not necessarily a bad thing.

When doing something I like to look at the bigger picture, if i scam someone there might be consequences that i do not want to deal with...take pirate for example, 5 million bucks, nice move. But, i would not want to live with the constant fear of someone finding me and harming me or my family.I might scam someone for a bum video card, but I would ruin my rep on the forum and no one else might want to purchase bitcoins from me...are the after affects of a scam worth it, i do not think so...

finkleshnorts

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 250

People who are smart enough to be really good at scamming are smart enough to make lots of money legitimately. Ever notice how scammers are mostly either boneheads or sociopaths?

Objectively speaking, I could probably get away with murder or rob a gas station without getting caught. But... those things just aren't options for me. I have a strong, developed and binding sense of empathy and morality, for which I am grateful.

P.S. My identity is well known here to anyone who's pm'd me.

max in montreal

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 500

its too easy to pull a scam using bitcoins, butunless its for 5 million bucks...its not worth ruining your forum reputation...

knight22

legendary

Activity: 1372

Merit: 1000

--------------->¿?

I hate all scammers!
period

flower1024

legendary

Activity: 1428

Merit: 1000

lol
very nice result.

do you have a way to see who voted what?
would be interesting who thinks about scamming Cheesy

the joint

legendary

Activity: 1834

Merit: 1020

Fess up.

Topic: Have you been tempted to scam? (Read 1664 times)