Topic: Have you ordered your HashFast Baby Jet yet? (Read 5005 times)

You are right. We are approaching uncharted waters, ASIC companies that finance the units with their own money have no incentive in selling units at a price that bring ROI to their customers, as discussed many times this will likely lead us towards centralization (end game for BTC) unless the community creates crowd funded, open source projects...

Eh, fewer pre-orders means more bitcoin for people who do. I guess.

At the same time, people shouldn't do pre-orders if they don't have the technical knowledge necessary to evaluate company credibility.

Eve's bot programming seems to have gotten stuck in a loop.

What' wrong with you?

How many times do you have to say this in every thread?

Not worth risks without guarantee on time delivery and credit cards payments option. No Pre Order and avoid pre order at all costs.

They froze mine for it.

Depends on the price and demand for bitcoins. I would like to be an optimist as I have shares in HF and KnC equipment.
HF seems to me to be the only company addressing the ROI issue, maybe not perfectly but it looks like a step in the right direction and it would be nice to see other companies adopt similar policies.
If we have a difficulty of 250 million in December and BTC is trading at $300 (possible) then its profitable. Mining is a risk, if you don't like risk then don't mine.
 

+1

Too Much $$$$  For these..

Yeah, it's only resale of Butterfly Labs pre-orders i.e. vaporware on eBay from scammy sellers. People win listings, get fed up of waiting over Paypal's 45 days and demand a refund. By which point the seller has withdrawn money from Paypal and run off, so his account gets closed and Paypal foot the bill. Buyer's on eBay are trigger happy and trust sellers. Like on this forum people buy stuff without reading up;

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1iyzkg/if_you_get_caught_selling_bitcoin_hardware_on/

Here's a fun Excel game:
1.  Collect the data on all the promised hashrate (hashrate already promised by all of the ASIC manufacturers¹ for near-term delivery).
2.  Create a worksheet projecting the total hashrate added to the network @ promised time.
3.  Create a worksheet projecting difficulty @ time given 1 & 2.
4.  
5.  Plausible difficulty projection.

1.  I'm tired of using quotes.  From now on, when i say "ASIC manufacturer," assume i mean "some guy on the interwebz who knows how to spell ASIC & promised to make a bunch of real good ones real soon in exchange for your monyz now."  In no way is the term used to suggest actual manufacture of ASICs. Just a figure of speech.  Now you know.

I believe that the less people there are who believe there will be a positive ROI the more likely there is to be one.  I think there is some chance of coming close to breaking even in 90 days and if not there is the Miner Protection Plan.  At this point in the game no company will ever sell an ASIC miner with a slam dunk ROI because everyone would buy one at which point no one would make an ROI.

Just search for paypal on the forum also their is an extensive thread on reddit about some issues anyhow.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/hashfast-miner-protection-program-discussion-272906
That is the idea behind the MPP.

Anyone here still believe there will be positive ROI even if they manage to deliver on time?

in what way, officially?

They've changed their policies. 

It happened to the company that built my gpu miners from back in 2011.

When paypal figured out they were selling bitcoin related stuff they stepped in and unilaterally canceled my order.

I'm actually very surprised that KNC had been allowed to push millions of USD'S thru paypal  like this. Makes me wonder what they've told them upfront.

Assuming the best that paypal knows what's going on, from Bitcoin's perspective as a payment system, this is fantastic news. It means that paypal has capitulated and has allowed their money grubbing selves to surface. Kudos to KNC for making that happen.

Otoh, if PayPal doesn't know what's going on, there indeed does exist the possibility of account freezing.

I'd put that at a very small risk at this point.

What accounts are Paypal holding or cancelling for BTC related activity? Considering they've both become the payment processor for more than one Bitcoin related company, and have actively been looking at accepting BTC as a payment method themselves.

i have enough stress on this pre-orders thing. 

?

?

That's not true. All that really matters is die size.  Whether you have 1 12x12mm chip, or 4 6x6mm chips, or 8 3x3mm chips, the amount of silicon used is the same.  In fact, it's actually slightly cheaper because you have less 'white space' around the edge of the wafer (remember, a wafer is a circular shape.  If you have a smaller chip, you use less of the wafer)

The other thing is the power draw.  More power in a die means more cooling and it becomes more difficult/complex.  Since KnC's chips are going to use less power per chip you can use a cheaper cooling system (in this case fans v.s. water cooling.)

It's possible HF's chip is actually more space efficient if they did a 'hand routed' design over a "standard cell" (which KnC used). If that's the case then production costs per chip may be lower.

However, all this talk about how HF's chip is soooo much more efficient then KnC's is a bit ridiculous. The package size doesn't tell you anything about the size of the chip. Unless you have insider information you have no way of knowing how efficient their chips are.

To be honest, it sounds kind of insane, total certainty about something you can't possibly know.  No one will know how big their die is until chips are released and someone actually cracks one open to get a look at the actual silicon.

Anyway, it doesn't even matter.  All that matters is what they charge for the chip.  If it costs HF $1/Gh/s and they sell it for $14, and it costs KnC $2/Gh/s and they sell it for $10, then KnC is a better deal .

Given HF's "miner protection plan" the chips must cost less then $2.8/Gh/s.

A lot of people seem really confused about the difference between the profits of the company making the chip and the profits of the actual customer.  Production cost won't make any difference at all until all the profits are wrung out and people are selling chips close to their production cost. (And by that time they'll be able to refine their design a couple of times as well)


I think it's possible they might be on time, it really depends on the company that's putting together the actual boxes. It's going to be much more of a challenge for them then KnC. With the Miner protection plan it's an OK deal I guess. At this point I still think LABCOIN shares are the best deal at the moment.

PaTrolling?

Pahahahahahahahahaa

You guys do realize that PayPal will hold/cancel your account for anythng btc related that they catch wind of it?

mark my words could even be longer than 13 months or disappear totally into thin air

Nice gamble man.
Have fun with them in december mining few bitcoins a day.

no way.

blow me, BTC only payments haha, maybe if it had paypal I would take a risk free gamble.

Could end up like BFL 13 months later

you've made the right choice.

Well staying back on topic, I just made an order for 12 Baby Jets with next day air. I hope to get them on time. I also have two ASIC SC Single pre-orders from 13 months ago from BFL. I hope to get them in 2 more weeks ™

that's the thing.

b/c HF is going to be getting 400gh/s out of 1 chip vs. KNC needing 4 chips, right there, HF is going to have a significant production cost advantage.  so even if KNC does offer a MPP, the cost advantage will eventually grind them down.

in addition, it appears there is even further efficiency advantages that HF suspects b/c of the package size coming out of KNC.  don't ask me to go into details b/c i don't fully understand it but am digging for more info as we speak.

Well it's in black and white, I posted the legality on the issue. I'm tired of going through it, but if you want to PM me over it go ahead, anything but dragging it through someone else's thread. I don't believe you consciously realised the legality of the issue, although you have admitted you understood it to be morally inexcusable.

I agree minor protection is something other companies should consider, but perhaps KnC may lead with enough time for ROI, in dollars at least, as they are priced not to be a concern within a reasonable timeframe. Will have to wait and see.

I disagree about payment choice and accountability, this is the precise point in time that you demand the security in payments you wish a company to provide. I don't doubt Hashfast are real, and have a chip in mind, what I'm concerned about, and have constantly raised issue with irrespective of the company, and including KnC, is treating customers funds like a casino. There's absolutely no reason for it to be that way, we shouldn't be expected to 'hand our balls over' when it's completely unnecessary so a company can gamble on whether they can bring a product to market. It's a choice w.r.t. accountability and recourse. Say there's a catastrophic failure, or delay beyond a reasonable timeframe, and they have to refund as promised in January, only monies have been spent, where's the cash coming for the refund if no third party is willing to accept liability? It's not, no matter how pretty the ribbons.

Unquestionable superior technology? It's the same 28nm kid, and if it's late, it's late, only realistically it's now recently been reworded as only an 'anticipated' date with no refund until which point in time refunds are untenable. That's not me kissing one co's ass over another, that's taking a step back and observing the situation from a logical standpoint.

How many fucking topics do we need for HashFast?

actually not quite.  

yes, i was using your line (for a second time ) purposely but thought you meant something different.

what i am saying is that according to Bitcoinorama, even if some great new company appears that unquestionably has a superior technology that is likely to enable them to take over the market, as long as KNC hasn't done anything illegal to deceive, misportray, or misrepresent their product, you are ethically and legally bound to stay with them.  you have entered a legal contract binding you to them. you are not allowed to cx your orders b/c of market events. you are expected to suck it up and lose money.

i don't agree that it's illegal hence the "cut off your balls" comment. 

He's referring to the argument you guys were having in his 'endorsement' thread about whether or not it's "fraudulent" to place a CC order you intend to cancel, which in his view justifies HashFast not accepting CC's. Although Ironically he's ripping off my line about how not accepting CC's and not having a refund policy means you're cutting off your balls and handing it to the chipmakers:


I guess I should be flattered, since I guess it makes me "influential" - he also referenced something I said in his first post

I think the Miner protection plan makes Hashfast a slightly better deal.  It ameliorates a lot of the risk caused by the possibility of HashFast being a few weeks late. I think KnC should match it.

Not sure what you're saying here.  Every vendor -every one, even those who have demonstrated some shipping- continue to have some red flags.  And, that includes HashFast.

I interpret what he says as that there are enough risk factors already to add outright, unprotected, failure to deliver as the ultimate one, at least from a financial standpoint.

This is definitely just sayin, and in no way challenging your decision to buy a Baby Jet.

That said, from the sound of your post, if I were you, I'd sit back and ask myself if I'm overly wedded to the pure idea of "high hash power" after all this time ("Can't wait to see 1 400 GH/s chip running in a box").  The second sentence seems to support that Need for Speed.

Again, just saying, and encouraging introspection.  This may not be a business decision for you, but there are risks that it could turn out to be little more than an expensive hobby.

BTW, I'd also point out the the vendor that "Baby Jet" is not that good a name, all in all.  People in forums like to abbreviate things, and a name that abbreviates to "BJ" was likely not the best choice...

Remember No Pre order. and don't buy if they don't accept credit cards and paypal

What?

I know pre-orders are scary due to all the uncertainties but I think I set up the best Win/Win Group Buy with the lowest purchasing & hosting costs to be found anywhere, on the other forum:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/openr2bhashfast-host-dbl-hashrate-upgrade-43-10-13ghs-mpp-274055

- John K. handles all the funds & ordering details so the Group Buyer (me) can't run off with the funds which has happened with scumbags previously.
- He will be handling any refund requests, if necessary. If a mfg. gives John K. a hard time over a refund, you can bet they'll be banned from this forum forever.
- He has my AM shares currently worth about $500 as collateral for 2-3 months & will have admin access to the HF/CT miner to make me behave during miner payouts until folks get comfortable
- HashFast promises chips up to 4X of your order (1.6 to 2 TH total) if you don't make ROI in 3 months. If you're a miner, their MPP seems to be the best hedge against not meeting ROI from your miner purchase due to possible delays or runaway network difficulty.


Most folks don't have $6K lying around for opportunities like this. I could've just joined a Group Buy & bought a quarter of a Baby Jet, but I also wasn't happy with the lack of a reasonable exit strategy from other listed Group Buys. TGB projections show any miner will be useless in a year; might as well sell it at the 6-7 month mark when most of the annual ROI (90%+) have already been captured and the device still has some resale value.

I thought about all the risks involved for the people taking the plunge, and I've done my best to ameliorate pre-order fraud concerns & set up this Group Buy in a way, that the people involved get access to the best equipment & the best values (found only at the high end) while minimizing their exposure to risk.

I truly think Group Buys like this (and mining shares) will be the only real way hobby miners will be able to keep up in the future. I'm aiming to set myself up as a GB co-ordinator so that I can continue to get access to the best equipment and best values for smaller GBs in 2013/2014.

There's currently 28 share reservations left, if anyone's interested in the least expensive - and safest - method to own part of a Baby Jet with 2.75% hosting fees.

you and me both.  i thank gaud everyday about having made it thru the Avalon gauntlet, ie, Batch 2, unscathed.  my 3 units have worked perfectly too as an added bonus.  i too had the good sense (luck?) to cancel not only a BFL but bASIC units as soon as i detected problems.

this lame brain theory by Bitcoinorama that we have this contractual obligation via cc's to cut off our balls and hand them over to red flagged companies is insane.

so i guess i'm coming at this from a totally different perspective than the burnt ones here. 

Well I held off on pre order on BFL and I did pre ordered avalon, so far I made the right call and now I have a pre ordered for some baby jets.

No more pre-orders for me too!

well, i still have my 8 orders in.  of course.

one day, one of these companies is going to make it thru the pre-order gauntlet in good shape and then go on to do great things in terms of being able to produce a money making machine at their own expense just so everyone who buys it can make guaranteed money.  sounds like a paradox, eh?  it is, b/c then why sell them?

anyways, that is what everyone around here in Bitcoin Asic World seems to think is going to happen.  i really don't think so.  which is why i don't mind the pre-order scenario given that i believe i have done my due diligence.  no risk, no gain.

i want to be involved in asic mining.  but that's just me. we'll see.

Thanks but no, no more pre-orders for me.

And look at where that has gotten miners so far...

KnC is allowing people to cancel their orders. If you read the thread there are a bunch of people who got cold feet, asked for a refund and got it.

So at least with them, if you change your mind before they ship you can back out.  HashFast isn't allowing cancel, they're very BFL like.

Also, they were saying they'd refund your money only if they didn't ship before December 31st. At which point the difficulty could be off the charts if Cointerra ships.

On the other hand they have a "miner protection plan" where you get extra chips if their units don't ROI in 90 days, but it's just chips, you still have to pay for cases/PCBs with that plan.

KnC is already saying their november prices will be lower, so if you want a miner in that price range at that date, it's probably better to just wait until november and buy from them.

I ordered and already paid for one. Got my eggs in multiple ASIC baskets... I guess I haven't learned the BFL lessons :/, but at least the founders and other members aren't convicted felons It's expensive assuming everyone else delivers on time, but I'm betting some/most eggs won't. Plus, they have the Miner protection program which helps if ROI isn't achieved within 90 days.

One thing that threw me off was that they originally said they'd allow Local pick up, but when I ordered they contacted me to say that they won't be allowing it. Meh, maybe they'll reconsider.

Pre-orders are fine when there is adequate consumer protection in place. Unfortunately, most ASIC vendors do not have it.

+1,000,000,000,000

I'm third on this. No more pre-order should go to any vendor before their products are ready to ship / have proof that they can deliver that they are selling. The recent Avalon chip fiasco should be a damn good reason to reconsider pre-ordering anything.

Me too! 

I am hoping to become a distributor or at least host a few Group Buys since they are only a few hours away from me

HERE HERE!  I'm done sending $$ or BTCBTC to companies who have ZERO obligation to me as a customer.

I'm waiting for Cointerra to show us what they can do. In the meantime difficulty will have a change to develop further.
Baby Jet isn't that much of an improvement if any from BitFury. I should get some this month  

I also agree but so far it's been the nature of the best in the bitcoin mining industry so far.. :/

I second that.

+1 101% agree !!! NO MORE PRE-ORDERS !

Same thought crossed my mind.

By the time it ships, they will surely give the price a haircut.

Yea but the question is their any alternative that is cheaper, this is the cheapest I could find.

seems a bit pricey?

IMHO, too expensive at the current difficulty.

Boycott Pre-Orders!

Just curious of those who have ordered or are on the fence, the shop is open again and taking orders.. Baby Jet

Cant wait to see 1 400Gh/s chip running in a box.. Ill deff be trying to OC it a bit to push the limits of the Baby Jet!