Topic: Help me understand... (Read 3586 times)

Where do you guys come up with this shit?  Is that what they tell you at stormfront.org mises.org/zerohedge?

Here, educate yourself:  http://www.angels-heaven.org/english/default_0c_en.htm



And get some real tinfoil for your hat already.  Tinfoil works, aluminum foil (the shit they duped you into buying) don't.

Deflation "made them walk away from their homes"? Or they could no longer afford to pay their mortgage since they got loans which took nearly 100% of their disposable income and their interest rates went up just enough to make it so they could no longer pay their mortgage?

Most americans have a fixed income. Deflation would end up giving them extra dollars in the pocket as the price of goods decreased and their pay stayed the same.

The only one will be destroyed are the banks, and the whole scam exposed. People will learn from it and reorganize the economy with what they have left. However, FED printed 30 years' money to save the banks and now people did not learn anything from it and they have been ripped off even more due to this large scale of money printing

PCE does not include assets and debts either, if it indeed does, we are in hyper inflation now. And you can see, they dramatically reduce the weight of housing cost in the index and increased the medicare cost in the index, due to cheaper medicare and more expensive housing, how brilliant




It is not difficult to learn to deal with price instability: Buy low and sell high, small leverage. Sometimes you gain, sometimes you lose, long term wise you gain. But for fiat money, you lose a tiny amount each day, and long term wise you are a sure loser

Central banks are playing a game which quickly erode the credibility of fiat money. From surface, it seems they can drive a forever expanding debt and forever expanding consumption, borrowing new money to pay the old debt, and grow the GDP at mean time. However, people will quickly lose trust in fiat money when they learned more knowledge about modern fiat money creation, maybe fiat money itself already collapsed long before this game run its course

You seems to not get everything. Bitcoin is no different than any other FIATs out there. The only difference is that it is virtual and not managed by one government. Standard money are still your better choice because they seems to be not volatile. As for tracking qualities of money vs bitcoin... well that is something yet to be proven.

In reallity bicoin value is not in his price , The bitcoin value is in the simple method you can use it with the low
value of taxes and the full private protect tha give you , sometimes people just want to disapear because
they want to hide from governs .

I found this learning aid rather helpful in explaining the eternal battle of Good vs. BTC:

It comes down to what the individual does to protect their Bitcoin. The traditional system is already quite vulnerable, and there's not a lot that can be done about that. If you're looking for an example, that Chase Bank hack a little while ago.

Hackers will always become more and more sophisticated, and people have to find work-arounds to protect their stuff. Nothing is immune.

There is no way to explain to you , because there's nothing to understand. people just simply things that the FIAT system is working great , and that this bitcoin thing is just bad. once the fiat system crash ( if ever ) bitcoin will skyrocket.

This is very true.  But then again, the latest price is near $280.  Still though, I agree.. the insecurity of what is supposed to be a secure finance method is troubling. 

Correct. The price of milk should be based on the supply and demand of the milk. When you change the yardstick (the value of money) you completely disrupt the market's understanding of the supply and demand of milk because the price has changed in regards to the value of each dollar rather than the current value of milk.

So many people (including Lampchop) don't understand this very simple concept.

most because bitcoin related investmen businesses went either scam or bankrupt, thats why most people are pissed but I agree with you that its not a get rich quick scheme.

Well it is true that a lot of hacking incidents are happening at the moment when it comes to bitcoin related...businesses...but this also shows them that they need to up their security to better serve their customers. It's not a matter of whether or not the bitcoin currency is secure or not...but more of a question...of whether or not the people are taking the proper precautions...

Definitely, however debt and assets are not included in CPI, they buy as much debt and assets as possible, and when most of the debts and assets are concentrated in the hands of a few, there will be even less worry about inflation


Humans are adaptive, if you see the future price volatility risk, you will either take less exposure or make some hedging against that risk. The much larger danger is seeing an illusion of price stability that is created by FED, while not detecting the underlying problem under the calm surface, and crashed without any preparation. FED is also human, they are not much smarter than average graduates, can not avoid human's weakness. But due to their higher level of view, they could drive larger changes, and also cause larger disasters

... which we now see on a global scale, for all commodities, especially those with a long delay from investment to finished product.

First, when you make x10 less milk, FED will not destroy money, it is a one way ticket. They only print more and more, never destroy it, not because the economy can not shrink, just because they don't want to sell their assets in exchange for useless paper

And your second reasoning is quite right, the milk's price should be based on supply and demand, has nothing to do with FED's money supply. Changing the money supply will just affect milk's price, thus give wrong signal of milk's supply and demand, which usually first cause over production and over hiring, and then followed by a larger sell-off of over produced goods and lay-off

Because they're either trolls or ignorant, usually both. Obviously we can see the potential in bitcoin and the opportunity for both growth and profit so we see it as a worthwhile investment, but others don't. Some people thought it was a get rich quick scheme and it didn't work out for them or they lost a lot of money and now they're pissed so they become aggressive and cynical.

`

agree, the current money creation process is the root of all evil, inflation is just a manifestation of it..

alltough i still dont get why price stability is such an important goal

Ergo, when I make x10 less milk, the central bank will destroy 90% of the money.  I see what you're getting at now.

TL;DR:  When I make x10 more milk, unless demand for milk goes up by x10, I can assure you I won't make x10 as much--in fiat money, gold, or barter.  Because supply & demand.

I'm glad to see such a simple answer. It leaves me with the hope that there are still some sane people on this site.

With inflation, there will always be less money for you, regardless how much your produce. In 10 years time, the milk will cost ~20% more than it does today. I don't call that stability.

Most money is just numbers anyways, most of it isn't even created by the government.

If you get a chance, I suggest looking up the web series "Hidden Secrets of Money", it's pretty insightful, especially episode 4.

It seems quite natural, but it is exactly this kind of thought makes billions of people become slaves of banks

When there is no fiat money, when you make 10 times more milk, your real income increase by 10 fold. But if there is fiat money, when you make 10 times more milk, you need 10 times more USD to keep the price of them stable, and those USD will be created by banks out of nothing. So the more you produce, the more banks can buy from you with nothing, added productivity all belongs to banks, simply because people want price stability

It is amazing that people prefer to be a slave instead of doing some simple exchange rate calculation  

^We must kill it before it lays eggs

Bitcoin is still in its infancy stage. Give it some time.

You seem to greatly underestimate the importance of stability. Money is the life force of human civilization, it's like nourishing blood flowing through the entire system, holding everything together. Without stability money doesn't work. If you were to magically replace all the money in the world with Bitcoin, in its current form, the whole system would come crashing down in an instant.

Go to a grocery store.
Get price for 1 gallon of milk, in USD.
Return a week later, find 1 gallon of milk costs the same.
That's stability.  I'm OK with that.

Now try that with BTC, and you'll learn that (other than the fact the bodega next door doesn't know BTC from DMT) the price changes every ten minutes.  Or, at least, that's how long BitPay price was good for, last time I checked.
That's not stability. That's Bitcoin.

Over slavery  

Sooner or later, people will realize that price stability is only a belief, it has never been realized. Look at all the world currency wildly swing against each other, it is only a best-effort control by central banks, and Swiss central bank just gave up the control and make it swing 40% in a couple of hours

But again, comparing to money creation, inflation or deflation or stability are all minor issues, it is the money creation bring the slavery to mankind, not inflation

People don't like change.

These statements sounds more like a political campaign  

Here is a better one: "The fiat monetary system is a scam. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it"

Value is all relative, stability is an illusion. A good example that price stability has nothing to do with productivity is bitcoin, merchants accept bitcoin payment and pricing can change a lot during a day or a week, but no one feel uncomfortable, they will always find a way to hedge this risk. People are not that stupid that without fiat money they will go back to stone age, no, without fiat money they will feel much better  

In fact, a stable price makes all the added productivity goes to money creators. If you make 1000 times more goods, banks will just create 1000 times more money to buy your goods, to make their price stable, how can this total slavery scheme last without being caught eventually

Growth has nothing to do with money supply, it is a result of technology advance, most of the modern technologies that widely used today have been developed long before the FED established

i wrote hacking in quotes because i don't believe they got hacked in the first place. They can say whoopsie we got hacked, while they can freely walk away with your bitcoins.
Clear ownership and backing with their personally property would make them think about their security better, and also stop robbing themselves.
That doesnt mean they will be target of criminals, if that was to be true, none of the global firms would exist.
Hope that clears it up a bit.

cheers

I'm new to BTC and already can I say I LOVE IT.
I buy 3 BTC a few weeks ago and now I sold 2 BTC some minutes ago,
My profit is 37 dollars.

No it has yet to realize it's true potential. Unlike central banks which can basically control the supply of money in the market and in certain way still able to influence the price to stabilize it. Bitcoin doesn't have that mechanism in place. The volatility still remains a problem but to imply that it is the main driver that will lead to complete failure is not justified in any way. And that will change.

What is the purpose of price stability?

Value is based on supply and demand, the demand does not change much, but the supply has increased so much during latest decades, so everything's value should went down dramatically. However daily consumption's price in fiat is relatively stable, means the value of fiat money also went down together with those goods

If use gold as absolute value indicator, then most of the thing's value (including fiat money) went down dramatically during latest 40 years. This suits economy theory much better, since the supply has increased a lot while demand almost unchanged

I think the demand for price stability is more of a psychological one, it does not have any real meaning economic wise: I want the bread that I bought yesterday still cost the same today, since that bread does not look different today.  I have no idea how much more of this kind of bread has been produced today, and I have no idea how much more fiat money has been produced today, but I just want that bread price to be the same as yesterday! 

im asking myself the very same question.

hacking" of the exchanges will stop once the owners back their bussines with their own personal funds. transparent ownership and bussinesses would stop all this.

What does this sentence actually mean? Does that mean every business present should reveal their owners and tell to the world that their business are backed by their own personal funds? Would that create some exception for them not to be target by criminals?

When most anti-BTCeanie BTCabies people ... to me it just shows how much growth etc., etc.


That's 'coz there was an initial need for banks.  No need for Bitcoin.



Unlike fiat, Bitcoin has no mechanisms for dealing with fraud.  BTC transactions are irreversible, and the currency is [half-ass] anonymous, which lends itself perfectly to scamming/theft.

so you are saying that if a hacker knows who he is robbing, he wont do it?

Bad pr really scares the average joe into getting bitcoins. Of course, as long as there is money involved, there will be scammers, launderers and thieves trying to get into the scene and get some money. Bitcoin is also considered as money, so yeah, thieves, scammers, and launderers wouldn't be out in the scene as they will try and try to get some money out of people.

The potential is indeed a great one. True that bitcoin has a long way to go. But the price really affects the integration of merchants. The fluctuation in price scares away merchants because of its instability. Sure though, there might be some relevant growth if the adoption rate increased, but we have a long way to go. When the price sees stability, sooner or later the adoption rate will followed.

I share your views, many see the immediate downfall, I see the potential.

I am happy to obtain and hold onto my BTC whilst trying to introduce others to the market.

I see the negativity everyday on here, I simply remember my ethics and belief in BTC

♥♥Bitcoin♥♥

Well, bitcoin is not going to coexist with Fiat, it will be there to pick up the pieces when fiat self destructs or at least the majority of people acknowledge the fact that Fiat is dying. Fiat without gold backing is not money. Bitcoin is already money due to limited supply and competes with Fiat and will likely win in the long run.

It's a fact all clueless people tend to think when an exchange gets hacked bitcoin itself gets hacked. Sad to see.

Yes, well who knows what really happened. This kind of incidents is a bad image for bitcoin to a person who doesn't know much about bitcoin they would think it as an entire scam scheme..

Holding your own bitcoin is relatively safe unless you allowed your computer to become infected with viruses/trojans etc. Allowing someone else to hold your coins for you is never safe. Would you allow a non-insured overseas 3rd party to hold all of your cash for you?

I'm not blaming bitcoin, I just hate that these hacking is so common incidents that it would make an average joe think that holding to bitcoin is not safe..

I had a really good response from another friend of mine which I'll share here for people that are truly interested in the general population's mindset.



I really think that says it best.

You lost fait. Ok, tell me in who exactly you lost faith?

If you lost faith in the amateur and noob exchange operators I will 100% agree with you.

If you lost fait in Bitcoin, then you don't know what exactly happened.

There are so many people blaming Bitcoin for being unsecure while it is not the fault of Bitcoin.

Blame the shitty exchanges, they get hacked and robbed. Not Bitcoin.

Fun fact: most people are fools. Give it ten years and everyone will be kicking themselves for not jumping on the Bitcoin train earlier.

Tons of banks in the early 1900's got robbed or went out of business, it didn't eliminate the need for banks. I think bitcoin will survive beyond the hacks. Maybe some bitcoin insurance agencies should be formed to cover people's losses.

People preach doom and gloom because they are focused on the news today, rather than the impact of that news over years. If you take a longer view of the currency you can see how it could become very successful. Also, the volatility of the price is a barrier for entry for new users. If I'm buying my first Bitcoin today I'd be pretty concerned that my $230 could become $120 over night...that's a scary thing! Why would I put my spending money into something so volatile?

"hacking" of the exchanges will stop once the owners back their bussines with their own personal funds. transparent ownership and bussinesses would stop all this.
Were long way from worldwide acceptance, but if that is to come, all those dreams of 100k / bitcoin might come true, like it happened with 100$ dream not do long ago.

cheers

The growth potential is there. There's no denying. In fact we can see more businesses starting to adopt bitcoin. But however, with the price fluctuating drastically this basically hinder more businesses to adopt the coins until it has become stable. Still a long way to go but yeah, we are heading in the right direction.

Its doomed to fail if every bitcoin related businesses gets hacked. After the recent hacking incidents im losing faith

When most anti-bitcoin people talk about bitcoin all I hear is how the price is not stable and it can't be used everywhere yet and not everyone uses bitcoin yet. To me this just shows how much growth potential there is with bitcoin. It shows me how much added value bitcoin will/would have with massive acceptance and usage. To me the fact that the bitcoin economy is growing and it continues to get new developments (think Bitcoin 2.0 world) shows me that it's on the right path to increase in adoption and usefullness.

Why do people see "doomed to failed, because it's not already big", while I see "Has tremendous growth potential, because it's not already big nor the defacto world currency".

All opinions, insight etc is GREATLY appreciated. I seriously have the hardest time wrapping my head around this one.

Bears feel free to flame-on, I'm greatly interested in what you all have to say along with the bulls.