Topic: how about removing ALL computers (Read 2475 times)

Quote from: BlackMachine on April 17, 2015, 09:30:42 AM

Well, that's why Jeff Garzik started "satellite" project. Check here; https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoins-in-space-334701
I think this satellite project is being developed in case of catastrophic failures, attacks to the network etc.
A target-spesific virus may delete/corrupt blockchain data on PC's etc... Even it's so small but it's a probability...

The main question is how is the virus going to infect 6000+ nodes and most of them are running Linux given that many host it on VPS and raspberrypi. Some people don't do anything other than making it a node. So it would be hard to get them to execute a virus.

Good luck on going through a real setup with cisco firewalls. Viruses usually infect the PC of an average Joe. People who have a very high understanding of Bitcoin (few on this forum) are usually very tech savy.

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Quote from: Cruxer on April 17, 2015, 07:52:02 AM

Quote from: laptopsftw on April 04, 2015, 10:37:14 PM

something bothered me,since ive started bitcoin

i think all the transactions are stored in computers,thats the core,right?if that's the core,what if we remove all the core's existence?does this mean all the bitcoins existed will be lost?

You will find that there's 1000's of computers / nodes out there operated by different people who will never remove their copy of the blockchain.

This is the beauty of the blockchain, it's massively distributed on a global scale.

It's not feasible to simply shut it down.

Not possible to shut down. One person can store whole blockchain on pendrive and noone will find it :>

you need to have the latest block to revive the network. it will be shut down unless someone has the latest block height when the whole network stop mining

you could avoid this, by mining yourself before the whole mining network will stop to mine, pretty easy

at that point the blockchain is in your hand too, you have absolute control of it

sgk

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Quote from: BlackMachine on April 17, 2015, 09:30:42 AM

Quote from: Cruxer on April 17, 2015, 07:52:02 AM

Quote from: laptopsftw on April 04, 2015, 10:37:14 PM

something bothered me,since ive started bitcoin

i think all the transactions are stored in computers,thats the core,right?if that's the core,what if we remove all the core's existence?does this mean all the bitcoins existed will be lost?

You will find that there's 1000's of computers / nodes out there operated by different people who will never remove their copy of the blockchain.

This is the beauty of the blockchain, it's massively distributed on a global scale.

It's not feasible to simply shut it down.

Not possible to shut down. One person can store whole blockchain on pendrive and noone will find it :>

you need to have the latest block to revive the network. it will be shut down unless someone has the latest block height when the whole network stop mining

Or you can implement the most recent copy of block chain, do a hard fork discarding all future transaction that are not available on network any more.

BlackMachine

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Quote from: Cruxer on April 17, 2015, 07:52:02 AM

Quote from: laptopsftw on April 04, 2015, 10:37:14 PM

something bothered me,since ive started bitcoin

i think all the transactions are stored in computers,thats the core,right?if that's the core,what if we remove all the core's existence?does this mean all the bitcoins existed will be lost?

You will find that there's 1000's of computers / nodes out there operated by different people who will never remove their copy of the blockchain.

This is the beauty of the blockchain, it's massively distributed on a global scale.

It's not feasible to simply shut it down.

Not possible to shut down. One person can store whole blockchain on pendrive and noone will find it :>

you need to have the latest block to revive the network. it will be shut down unless someone has the latest block height when the whole network stop mining

Cruxer

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Quote from: laptopsftw on April 04, 2015, 10:37:14 PM

something bothered me,since ive started bitcoin

i think all the transactions are stored in computers,thats the core,right?if that's the core,what if we remove all the core's existence?does this mean all the bitcoins existed will be lost?

You will find that there's 1000's of computers / nodes out there operated by different people who will never remove their copy of the blockchain.

This is the beauty of the blockchain, it's massively distributed on a global scale.

It's not feasible to simply shut it down.

Not possible to shut down. One person can store whole blockchain on pendrive and noone will find it :>

sgk

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Quote from: Kprawn on April 08, 2015, 02:24:08 AM

Most of you guys are talking about catastrofic "end of the world" events, that might eleminate most of the other electronic infrastructure out there too..

It would take a mayor event to destroy all nodes and if that happens, we would not be worried about Bitcoin anymore.

These nodes are spread out all over earth and soon into space.. so the chance of destroying EVERY node is VERY small. Wink

The few people who would survive in under ground bunkers, would not have anything to spend their Bitcoin on, so it would not matter to them, if they using bottle caps or chocolate bars to barter. Grin

Yep, but this was a rather hypothetical question to understand the underlying technicalities of how Bitcoin and the node network works.
(Or at least that's what I think the OP was asking)

On a related note, a few days ago I read about a proposal to launch a series of satellites (yes, the kind that orbit the earth) that contain Bitcoin block chain and act as nodes!
http://www.coindesk.com/jeff-garzik-announces-partnership-launch-bitcoin-satellites-space/

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Quote from: locopao on April 16, 2015, 02:32:35 PM

Ok, so the answer is "this is never gonna happen"

Let me ask the other way around: Is this possible to happen to the banking system? I mean can a virus or something "big" eliminate every bank transaction and destory the fiat money as we know it?

All these bank accounts, all these credit cards, all these wire transfers etc. Is there a "blockchain safety" for all these everyday banking related transactions?

It sounds more possible to me. Right?

No, because information is also stored offline so the virus would only wipe out new entries and we'd have a rollback.
Also there are people constantly monitoring the network and any suspicious activity would make them go offline and try to isolate the virus.

locopao

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Ok, so the answer is "this is never gonna happen"

Let me ask the other way around: Is this possible to happen to the banking system? I mean can a virus or something "big" eliminate every bank transaction and destory the fiat money as we know it?

All these bank accounts, all these credit cards, all these wire transfers etc. Is there a "blockchain safety" for all these everyday banking related transactions?

It sounds more possible to me. Right?

shogdite

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@OP

Your questions have already been answered, there's absolutely no need to worry about bitcoin being lost.

Kprawn

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Most of you guys are talking about catastrofic "end of the world" events, that might eleminate most of the other electronic infrastructure out there too..

It would take a mayor event to destroy all nodes and if that happens, we would not be worried about Bitcoin anymore.

These nodes are spread out all over earth and soon into space.. so the chance of destroying EVERY node is VERY small. Wink

The few people who would survive in under ground bunkers, would not have anything to spend their Bitcoin on, so it would not matter to them, if they using bottle caps or chocolate bars to barter. Grin

Amph

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Quote from: ?? on ??

If you remove all nodes (I think you mean 'nodes' when you say 'cores' - computers that hold full block chain), Bitcoins will not be lost.
Only block chain will be lost, which contains the data of all Bitcoin transactions carried out till date.

Bitcoins are still safe in that case (that reside in wallet.dat files) but it would be impossible to claim those coins without the block chain.

as long as bitcoin are safe(and you hold your wallet.dat/private keys)you just need to restore the nodes and thus the blockchain, i don't see the problem here

but in this case, anyone can control the network easily, it would be a double spend-fest...

ranochigo

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Bitcoins are still safe in that case (that reside in wallet.dat files) but it would be impossible to claim those coins without the block chain.

Your bitcoins are not stored anywhere but they are recorded in the blockchain as ledger. You only have your private key in your wallet which is used to spend or sign the address. The client verifies your balance by checking against blockchain, not wallet.dat.

planetroving

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Deleting all files relating to the Blockchain. Wow, that'll be a task and a half. Shutting down every node? That's not going to happen. Well, in my lifetime anyways. But nobody is going to do this, and if somebody is going to, it's near impossible.

Slark

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Quote from: notlist3d on April 06, 2015, 08:01:26 AM

Well, that's why Jeff Garzik started "satellite" project. Check here; https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoins-in-space-334701
I think this satellite project is being developed in case of catastrophic failures, attacks to the network etc.

A target-spesific virus may delete/corrupt blockchain data on PC's etc... Even it's so small but it's a probability...

If we have catastrophe here on earth and everything will be ruined. Say huge tsunami, earthquakes, meteor strike. I doubt that people would be using bitcoin anyway, that satellite launch is really just fancy project for people and media to talk about mostly. For promotional purposes it is great effort tho.

sgk

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Quote from: sgk on April 06, 2015, 07:06:53 AM

Quote from: notlist3d on April 06, 2015, 05:30:46 AM

Quote from: sgk on April 06, 2015, 07:06:53 AM

So - hypothetical - it would be possible to bring the Bitcoin network down with vanishing the Blockchain of all devices?

If there were no nodes there would be no access to the blockchain. You could in theory if only one computer control the chain.
[...]

Yes, even if we have ONE node that has the most recent block chain, we should be good to go.
The problem will be if we have scattered block chain across multiple computers but NO nodes.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10309038

Here's a fellow looking for full nodes to sync block chain of an alt coin:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/where-is-jimrambler-please-sync-your-orangecoin-wallets-984040 Cheesy

Only problem I see is it seems if only one node was up the might be able to control aspects of bitcoin transactions. I could be wrong on this but I would think there one they could a possibility of attacks.

Absolutely. With reference to a 51% attack that peopel keep talking about, let's call this a 100% attack Cheesy

notlist3d

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Quote from: notlist3d on April 06, 2015, 05:30:46 AM

Quote from: notlist3d on April 06, 2015, 05:30:46 AM

So - hypothetical - it would be possible to bring the Bitcoin network down with vanishing the Blockchain of all devices?

If there were no nodes there would be no access to the blockchain. You could in theory if only one computer control the chain.
[...]

Yes, even if we have ONE node that has the most recent block chain, we should be good to go.
The problem will be if we have scattered block chain across multiple computers but NO nodes.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10309038

Here's a fellow looking for full nodes to sync block chain of an alt coin:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/where-is-jimrambler-please-sync-your-orangecoin-wallets-984040 Cheesy

Only problem I see is it seems if only one node was up the might be able to control aspects of bitcoin transactions. I could be wrong on this but I would think there one they could a possibility of attacks.

sgk

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Quote from: sgk on April 06, 2015, 03:56:25 AM

So - hypothetical - it would be possible to bring the Bitcoin network down with vanishing the Blockchain of all devices?

If there were no nodes there would be no access to the blockchain. You could in theory if only one computer control the chain.
[...]

Yes, even if we have ONE node that has the most recent block chain, we should be good to go.
The problem will be if we have scattered block chain across multiple computers but NO nodes.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10309038

Here's a fellow looking for full nodes to sync block chain of an alt coin:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/where-is-jimrambler-please-sync-your-orangecoin-wallets-984040 Cheesy

Kazimir

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Bitcoins are still safe in that case (that reside in wallet.dat files) but it would be impossible to claim those coins without the block chain.

Not really. The wallet.dat files only contain the private keys. Without a blockchain, these private keys are useless. Without a verified transaction history (which is the blockchain), your private keys hold just as little (i.e. zero) bitcoins as any random non-existing private key that you generate on the fly.

Again: bitcoins exist nowhere. The blockchain or transaction history, which is stored decentralized and redundantly all over the world (mostly online in the p2p network, but also offline backups), determines which addresses hold which balances. The private key for a particular address, which is stored in individual wallets (online or offline or both, whatever you prefer), is necessary to spend that balance.

ranochigo

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Well, that's why Jeff Garzik started "satellite" project. Check here; https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoins-in-space-334701
I think this satellite project is being developed in case of catastrophic failures, attacks to the network etc.

A target-spesific virus may delete/corrupt blockchain data on PC's etc... Even it's so small but it's a probability...

The main question is how is the virus going to infect 6000+ nodes and most of them are running Linux given that many host it on VPS and raspberrypi. Some people don't do anything other than making it a node. So it would be hard to get them to execute a virus.

notlist3d

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Quote from: NUFCrichard on April 06, 2015, 04:36:38 AM

So - hypothetical - it would be possible to bring the Bitcoin network down with vanishing the Blockchain of all devices?

If there were no nodes there would be no access to the blockchain. You could in theory if only one computer control the chain.

But again with price of Raspberry Pi's and how many people care about bitcoin this will never happen.

LOBSTER

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So - hypothetical - it would be possible to bring the Bitcoin network down with vanishing the Blockchain of all devices?

notlist3d

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Quote from: laptopsftw on April 04, 2015, 10:37:14 PM

something bothered me,since ive started bitcoin

i think all the transactions are stored in computers,thats the core,right?if that's the core,what if we remove all the core's existence?does this mean all the bitcoins existed will be lost?

Even a massive solar flare that hits the earth, wiping out all electronics, wouldn't destroy the entire world, only those that are facing the sun at the time and are unprotected, i.e. not in basements or covered by metal.

The chances of the blockchain being wiped out is incredibly small, I reckon even if a virus was started to destroy it, there would still be blockchains on usb sticks, or offline that could restore most of the info when the virus was eradicated.

I know of one company that utilizes massive dug out rock mining for secure and safe storage of data. Very smart company they turned the old "veins" into storage it's temperature controlled, secure a pretty nice place. I'm not aware of any active servers, it was mostly disaster recovery. Can't find a active link about this one they might not still be doing it.

Other one I know is a cave the government dug at one time for US government agency's. Go on many years later the cave was converted into offices anyone can rent. Been a LONG time since I've been in it but last I knew there was one company hosting in their. (And hosting is normal servers not miners). - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SubTropolis

NUFCrichard

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Quote from: laptopsftw on April 04, 2015, 10:37:14 PM

something bothered me,since ive started bitcoin

i think all the transactions are stored in computers,thats the core,right?if that's the core,what if we remove all the core's existence?does this mean all the bitcoins existed will be lost?

Even a massive solar flare that hits the earth, wiping out all electronics, wouldn't destroy the entire world, only those that are facing the sun at the time and are unprotected, i.e. not in basements or covered by metal.

The chances of the blockchain being wiped out is incredibly small, I reckon even if a virus was started to destroy it, there would still be blockchains on usb sticks, or offline that could restore most of the info when the virus was eradicated.

Ingatqhvq

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Quote from: laptopsftw on April 04, 2015, 10:37:14 PM

something bothered me,since ive started bitcoin

i think all the transactions are stored in computers,thats the core,right?if that's the core,what if we remove all the core's existence?does this mean all the bitcoins existed will be lost?

The miners is not only computer, and the mobile phone also can be as wallet, and rassypi too, so your thought is just wrong.

sgk

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Quote from: laptopsftw on April 04, 2015, 10:37:14 PM

something bothered me,since ive started bitcoin

i think all the transactions are stored in computers,thats the core,right?if that's the core,what if we remove all the core's existence?does this mean all the bitcoins existed will be lost?

If you remove all nodes (I think you mean 'nodes' when you say 'cores' - computers that hold full block chain), Bitcoins will not be lost.
Only block chain will be lost, which contains the data of all Bitcoin transactions carried out till date.

Bitcoins are still safe in that case (that reside in wallet.dat files) but it would be impossible to claim those coins without the block chain.

nwfella

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Well hello there!

Like a cold mist bitcoin is!! :p

WhatTheGox

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Quote from: laptopsftw on April 04, 2015, 10:37:14 PM

something bothered me,since ive started bitcoin

i think all the transactions are stored in computers,thats the core,right?if that's the core,what if we remove all the core's existence?does this mean all the bitcoins existed will be lost?

Bitcoin is everywhere but it is also nowhere, a much better design then the matrix which was centralized by the machines.

notlist3d

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