How anonymous is DASH's "darksend mixing" actually?

generalizethis

legendary

Activity: 1750

Merit: 1036

Facts are more efficient than fud

Quote from: MasterMined710 on June 22, 2016, 12:44:52 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

One of the best materials I found about the subject: https://prezi.com/cjcjkeuwoyrg/fungibility-on-the-blockchain/

looks like monero propaganda from a infamous monero troll to me. Tongue

What specifically do you find at fault in that presentation? Please, keep it technical.

MasterMined710

legendary

Activity: 1182

Merit: 1000

Quote from: ?? on ??

One of the best materials I found about the subject: https://prezi.com/cjcjkeuwoyrg/fungibility-on-the-blockchain/

looks like monero propaganda from a infamous monero troll to me. Tongue

MasterMined710

legendary

Activity: 1182

Merit: 1000

Quote from: dadon on June 21, 2016, 05:35:18 PM

Quote from: qwizzie on June 14, 2016, 05:01:22 PM

Quote from: plorph on June 14, 2016, 04:52:28 PM

Quote from: qwizzie on June 14, 2016, 04:36:56 PM

Its fully anonymous in a decentralised way, integrated on protocol level and is optional.
It uses a thoroughly improved and adjusted CoinJoin to accomplish that.

Well that is quite impressive. Is there any other method of doing anonymous transactions currently? (Whether its a service on top of bitcoin or another cryptocoin which implements an anonymous feature)

There are a number of other altcoins that have a strong focus on anonymity but the anonymity there is either not optional (its anonymous by nature) or they have
totally different (and therefore uncompatible with Bitcoin) blockchains like for example Cryptonote altcoins. Dash on the other hand is forked from Bitcoin and
is therefore much more easy to implement by merchants who are already using Bitcoin for their payments.

Quote

Also, why is it a seperate action in the protocol and not a standard (all transactions anonymous).

As i understand it is to maintain tracebility through blockchain explorers, used in such a way it obscures the links beween sender and receiver,
making it impossible to trace transactions back to sender (when using Darksend / PrivateSend) and users that dont want to have anonymity in their transactions
can also still use it. Basicly its about giving options to users.

That's not true Shadowcash is bitcoin based and works on a duel token system that allows you to choose between traceable or non-traceable transactions http://aboutshadow.com/index.php/shadowmarket/q-a

"ShadowSend’s anonymous cryptographic transaction protocol uses dual-key stealth addresses, traceable ring signatures (presentation of the anonymous cryptographic transaction protocol which utilizes the above mentioned cryptographic principles). We explain how Shadow introduces a much higher level of privacy and anonymity to the network while still preserving the core principles of trustless decentralization, unforgeability and doublespend prevention. We also presented performance data of our scheme including proof sizes, signature generation times and verification times in our ShadowSend Whitepaper"

https://i.imgur.com/2XTQhYF.jpg

https://doc.shadowproject.io/#shadowsend-v2-0

that shadowsend v2 slide looks real good. is that all implemented or is it just vaporware right now? eta?

from what you wrote it looks like shadow has come a long way since i last checked. i'll do some more research and i may just pick up a few.
for people who just want to safely and quickly mix small amounts of btc i always recommend using shapeshift/coinomi and shadow rather than monero. i trust shapeshift way more than slower 3rd party monero services/options.

what size is shadow blockchain?

dadon

legendary

Activity: 1190

Merit: 1002

Pecvniate obedivnt omnia.

Quote from: qwizzie on June 14, 2016, 05:01:22 PM

Quote from: plorph on June 14, 2016, 04:52:28 PM

Quote from: qwizzie on June 14, 2016, 04:36:56 PM

Its fully anonymous in a decentralised way, integrated on protocol level and is optional.
It uses a thoroughly improved and adjusted CoinJoin to accomplish that.

Well that is quite impressive. Is there any other method of doing anonymous transactions currently? (Whether its a service on top of bitcoin or another cryptocoin which implements an anonymous feature)

There are a number of other altcoins that have a strong focus on anonymity but the anonymity there is either not optional (its anonymous by nature) or they have
totally different (and therefore uncompatible with Bitcoin) blockchains like for example Cryptonote altcoins. Dash on the other hand is forked from Bitcoin and
is therefore much more easy to implement by merchants who are already using Bitcoin for their payments.

Quote

Also, why is it a seperate action in the protocol and not a standard (all transactions anonymous).

As i understand it is to maintain tracebility through blockchain explorers, used in such a way it obscures the links beween sender and receiver,
making it impossible to trace transactions back to sender (when using Darksend / PrivateSend) and users that dont want to have anonymity in their transactions
can also still use it. Basicly its about giving options to users.

That's not true Shadowcash is bitcoin based and works on a duel token system that allows you to choose between traceable or non-traceable transactions http://aboutshadow.com/index.php/shadowmarket/q-a

"ShadowSend’s anonymous cryptographic transaction protocol uses dual-key stealth addresses, traceable ring signatures (presentation of the anonymous cryptographic transaction protocol which utilizes the above mentioned cryptographic principles). We explain how Shadow introduces a much higher level of privacy and anonymity to the network while still preserving the core principles of trustless decentralization, unforgeability and doublespend prevention. We also presented performance data of our scheme including proof sizes, signature generation times and verification times in our ShadowSend Whitepaper"

https://i.imgur.com/2XTQhYF.jpg

https://doc.shadowproject.io/#shadowsend-v2-0

MasterMined710

legendary

Activity: 1182

Merit: 1000

Quote from: jwinterm on June 14, 2016, 06:43:59 PM

Quote from: ArticMine on June 14, 2016, 05:15:40 PM

Quote from: plorph on June 14, 2016, 04:52:28 PM

...

Well that is quite impressive. Is there any other method of doing anonymous transactions currently? (Whether its a service on top of bitcoin or another cryptocoin which implements an anonymous feature)

Also, why is it a seperate action in the protocol and not a standard (all transactions anonymous).

Yes Monero, https://getmonero.org/home, uses ring signatures to mix with existing prior transactions on the blockchain. There is no need for a separate action for mixing (Coinjoin, or a mixing server), or to wait for a period of time until mixing is completed before sending mixed funds since mixing is built right into the Monero protocol. When one sends Monero mixing is built right into the send funds transaction.

Edit: In Monero anonymity is not optional, since there is a minimum mixing level required for each transaction, currently 2 and scheduled to increase to 4. The only exceptions are certain dust clearing transactions and coinbase (generation of new coins) transactions.

I don't think it's completely correct to say that anonymity is not optional for Monero, since you could publish your view key and allow anyone to audit your txs, right?

problem is that exposes all your transactions and your whole wallet history. with monero it's either you see everything or you see nothing, that's a big problem.

here is my reply to a monero troll post in the DASH thread....

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on June 09, 2016, 02:19:19 AM

Using zero-knowledge proofs and homomorphic functions (ring signatures and stealth addresses) to give users the power to configure their own visible/invisible blockchain settings is a significant advancement in the evolution of economic sovereignty.

Except to do so (configure their own visible/invisible blockchain settings) with monero would require running multiple wallets with separate view keys last i checked. Even a small charity would have to run several monero wallets. A larger charity for say battered women would need to run a separate wallets for every person they help/sent money to. Just to comply with banking and healthcare related laws for said charity would take several wallets with separate view keys. An official GUI wallet would probably help manage all those wallets but not much! Grin

Or you could just use a single DASH wallet, problem solved.

Quote from: MasterMined710 on March 13, 2016, 09:34:22 PM

Quote from: ddink7 on March 04, 2016, 04:51:52 PM

ICEBREAKER, long time no see! Maybe you could help me with a little problem I'm having:

Quote from: ddink7 on February 27, 2016, 03:33:24 PM

Dash De-anonymization Contest

Icebreaker and other trolleros: I have donated $1 to Monero's development team. I sent 0.25 Dash (TX ID: 59d51690d4b56ddbf1e393fa8d3a49bcfc3247f270f36be3b6ee411802666cba-000) to shapeshift.io, which converted it to Bitcoin and sent it to the official Monero donation address listed at https://getmonero.org/getting-started/donate/.

I challenge you to de-anonymize this transaction. To make it just a little easier, I only used four rounds of Darksend, so it's exponentially less private than it would be with the maximum eight rounds.

Please tell me what address this transaction originated from.

Cheers!

i see nobody has been able to de-anonymize this 4 round transaction.

CryR

full member

Activity: 210

Merit: 100

kcin obazs

So anonymous... Like Bitcoin Roll Eyes

generalizethis

legendary

Activity: 1750

Merit: 1036

Facts are more efficient than fud

"How anonymous is DASH's "darksend mixing" actually?"

Listen to the developer of dash himself (~min 1:50)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5sNx7SMTP8

Until dash implements an end-to-end method for privacy, this will be the case.

EmilioMann

legendary

Activity: 2184

Merit: 1028

#mitandopelomundo

Quote from: I am the guy on June 14, 2016, 06:57:17 PM

Quote from: plorph on June 14, 2016, 04:52:28 PM

Quote from: qwizzie on June 14, 2016, 04:36:56 PM

Its fully anonymous in a decentralised way, integrated on protocol level and is optional.
It uses a thoroughly improved and adjusted CoinJoin to accomplish that.

Well that is quite impressive. Is there any other method of doing anonymous transactions currently? (Whether its a service on top of bitcoin or another cryptocoin which implements an anonymous feature)

Also, why is it a seperate action in the protocol and not a standard (all transactions anonymous).

Vcash has an autonomous crypto-currency mixing and anonymizing mechanism called Chainblender. Chainblender allows Vcash users to send and receive anonymous transactions with optional use of the ZeroTime feature (instant transaction). Vcash allows for instant and anonymous transactions without blockchain bloat.

V.cash thread https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/xvc-vcash-official-community-thread-zerotime-anon-auto-block-size-1504342

ArticMine

legendary

Activity: 2282

Merit: 1050

Monero Core Team

Quote from: jwinterm on June 14, 2016, 06:43:59 PM

...

I don't think it's completely correct to say that anonymity is not optional for Monero, since you could publish your view key and allow anyone to audit your txs, right?

Yes that is a valid point; however when it comes to transactions on the Monero blockchain there is by design no option to not mix. This makes Monero fundamentally different from Dash and also fundamentally different from some other Cryptonote coins. This is important because by enforcing anonymity at the protocol level certain attacks can be eliminated or at least mitigated. There was extensive discussion of this in https://lab.getmonero.org/pubs/MRL-0004.pdf.

Publishing a view key is in many ways analogous to publishing a financial statement. The data is inherently anonymous but one explicitly chooses to make it public or share it with a certain group (those to whom the view key or the financial statement is provided).

I am the guy

full member

Activity: 237

Merit: 100

Quote from: plorph on June 14, 2016, 04:52:28 PM

Well that is quite impressive. Is there any other method of doing anonymous transactions currently? (Whether its a service on top of bitcoin or another cryptocoin which implements an anonymous feature)

Also, why is it a seperate action in the protocol and not a standard (all transactions anonymous).

Vcash has an autonomous crypto-currency mixing and anonymizing mechanism called Chainblender. Chainblender allows Vcash users to send and receive anonymous transactions with optional use of the ZeroTime feature (instant transaction). Vcash allows for instant and anonymous transactions without blockchain bloat.

jwinterm

legendary

Activity: 3136

Merit: 1116

Quote from: ArticMine on June 14, 2016, 05:15:40 PM

Quote from: plorph on June 14, 2016, 04:52:28 PM

...

Well that is quite impressive. Is there any other method of doing anonymous transactions currently? (Whether its a service on top of bitcoin or another cryptocoin which implements an anonymous feature)

Also, why is it a seperate action in the protocol and not a standard (all transactions anonymous).

Yes Monero, https://getmonero.org/home, uses ring signatures to mix with existing prior transactions on the blockchain. There is no need for a separate action for mixing (Coinjoin, or a mixing server), or to wait for a period of time until mixing is completed before sending mixed funds since mixing is built right into the Monero protocol. When one sends Monero mixing is built right into the send funds transaction.

Edit: In Monero anonymity is not optional, since there is a minimum mixing level required for each transaction, currently 2 and scheduled to increase to 4. The only exceptions are certain dust clearing transactions and coinbase (generation of new coins) transactions.

I don't think it's completely correct to say that anonymity is not optional for Monero, since you could publish your view key and allow anyone to audit your txs, right?

ArticMine

legendary

Activity: 2282

Merit: 1050

Monero Core Team

Quote from: plorph on June 14, 2016, 04:52:28 PM

...

Well that is quite impressive. Is there any other method of doing anonymous transactions currently? (Whether its a service on top of bitcoin or another cryptocoin which implements an anonymous feature)

Also, why is it a seperate action in the protocol and not a standard (all transactions anonymous).

Yes Monero, https://getmonero.org/home, uses ring signatures to mix with existing prior transactions on the blockchain. There is no need for a separate action for mixing (Coinjoin, or a mixing server), or to wait for a period of time until mixing is completed before sending mixed funds since mixing is built right into the Monero protocol. When one sends Monero mixing is built right into the send funds transaction.

Edit: In Monero anonymity is not optional, since there is a minimum mixing level required for each transaction, currently 2 and scheduled to increase to 4. The only exceptions are certain dust clearing transactions and coinbase (generation of new coins) transactions.

qwizzie

legendary

Activity: 2548

Merit: 1245

Quote from: plorph on June 14, 2016, 04:52:28 PM

Quote from: qwizzie on June 14, 2016, 04:36:56 PM

Its fully anonymous in a decentralised way, integrated on protocol level and is optional.
It uses a thoroughly improved and adjusted CoinJoin to accomplish that.

Well that is quite impressive. Is there any other method of doing anonymous transactions currently? (Whether its a service on top of bitcoin or another cryptocoin which implements an anonymous feature)

There are a number of other altcoins that have a strong focus on anonymity but the anonymity there is either not optional (its anonymous by nature) or they have
totally different (and therefore uncompatible with Bitcoin) blockchains like for example Cryptonote altcoins. Dash on the other hand is forked from Bitcoin and
is therefore much more easy to implement by merchants who are already using Bitcoin for their payments.

Quote

Also, why is it a seperate action in the protocol and not a standard (all transactions anonymous).

As i understand it is to maintain tracebility through blockchain explorers, used in such a way it obscures the links beween sender and receiver,
making it impossible to trace transactions back to sender (when using Darksend / PrivateSend) and users that dont want to have anonymity in their transactions
can also still use it. Basicly its about giving options to users.

plorph

member

Activity: 76

Merit: 14

Quote from: qwizzie on June 14, 2016, 04:36:56 PM

Its fully anonymous in a decentralised way, integrated on protocol level and is optional.
It uses a thoroughly improved and adjusted CoinJoin to accomplish that.

Well that is quite impressive. Is there any other method of doing anonymous transactions currently? (Whether its a service on top of bitcoin or another cryptocoin which implements an anonymous feature)

Also, why is it a seperate action in the protocol and not a standard (all transactions anonymous).

qwizzie

legendary

Activity: 2548

Merit: 1245

Quote from: plorph on June 14, 2016, 03:49:26 PM

Anonymous transactions on a blockchain are a big deal and has been subject of research in the last few years, now DASH claims that its built-in mixing ability (darksend) is anonymous, I'm wondering how anonymous is it, say compared to a coin mixing service, which from my research is not actually that anonymous. Thanks for any info.

Its fully anonymous in a decentralised way, integrated on protocol level and is optional.
It uses a thoroughly improved and adjusted CoinJoin to accomplish that.

Compared to a coin mixing service it is a lot more decentralised and does not have the risks associated
with centralised mixing services.

In its total existance Darksend (renamed to PrivateSend recentely) has never been broken and the vulnerabilities that were found by an external audit
from Kristov Atlas in 2014 (when it was still closed source) were quickly patched up and Darksend has been opensourced soon after that.

link :

http://cdn.anonymousbitcoinbook.com/darkcoin/darksend-paper/Atlas_Darksend-Analysis-v001.pdf
http://blog.anonymousbitcoinbook.com/2014/09/darkcoin-code-review-results/
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/reply-to-kristovs-paper.2325/

Update 12.1 (in development) is focussing on making the whole Darksend / Privatesend proces more efficient and faster, its currently undergoing
testing on Testnet.

link : https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/v12-1-testnet-launch-thread.9014/

plorph

member

Activity: 76

Merit: 14

Anonymous transactions on a blockchain are a big deal and has been subject of research in the last few years, now DASH claims that its built-in mixing ability (darksend) is anonymous, I'm wondering how anonymous is it, say compared to a coin mixing service, which from my research is not actually that anonymous. Thanks for any info.

Topic: How anonymous is DASH's "darksend mixing" actually? (Read 2318 times)