How Bitcoin can provide Subscription Auto Renewal solution

pawanjain

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Quote from: Z_MBFM on September 21, 2023, 09:12:21 AM

In many cases, we keep the Auto Renewal system on at various places so that when the subscription period of this item expires, the time is instantly renewed. This is possible because the bank is a centralized platform and has an authority team to manage it. But if Bitcoin is accepted for payment like Debit/Credit Card everywhere around the world. In that case how Bitcoin can provide auto renewal system where we use non-custodial wallet to hold Bitcoin. Which has full access to us, no one can control it if they want. what to you think about it. How Bitcoin can provide Subscription Auto Renewal solution?

If you are so lazy with your money then you shouldn't be using bitcoin at first place. Bitcoin is created to own your money.
You should be the only way you are spending your money. If any automation method or central authority is doing it for you then you shouldn't blame anybody else in case of any mishappening.
Time locked transactions are a good alternative though. So that is the only solution for the time being if you are stubborn with what you are looking to achieve.

Peanutswar

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I guess this can be possible if the wallet of the user is a centralized platform offering an auto debit to their accounts; like the digital wallets to today, they are offering favorite features through billing, transfer, and other transaction that adds the credentials and makes an auto debit or pay to those once the designated day occurs, but currently cant seen a platform providing this kind of offer. But if this happen its really more convenient to the people who make a transfer for payments.

tranthidung

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Quote from: LoyceV on September 21, 2023, 01:06:38 PM

When using Locktime, the transaction is not valid before it reaches a certain block (or date). No miner can change that.

When I read it, I am fearful if I use nLockTime but searching clears my fear.

Can a scheduled transaction with nLockTime be cancelled. It can be cancelled so no risk to use nLockTime for inheritance but if anything change like emergency, I can cancel it to use.

Quote

A transaction with nLockTime set cannot be spent (or even put on the block chain) until either the blockheight or time is reached. In the meantime, the transaction can be cancelled by respending any of the UTXOs that make up the transaction.

Blitzboy

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The modern financial world thrives on centralized control. Banks and card companies have a hand in every transaction. They watch, wait, and charge fees. Auto-renewals work well because they pull all the right strings.

Then Bitcoin. Decentralized, independent, and uncontrollable. The good and bad of it. How can auto-renewal work if there is no central authority? The answer: Smart Contracts. Though, before you get too excited, you should know that Bitcoin's smart contract? Just not there yet. Auto-renewals and subscriptions are important if Bitcoin wants to be the real world currency. But its method for smart contracts needs a big update. We need a solution that doesnt give anyone in the shadows the power they so badly want.

Z_MBFM

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Quote from: coinerer on September 21, 2023, 10:12:26 AM

Quote from: Z_MBFM on September 21, 2023, 09:12:21 AM

In many cases, we keep the Auto Renewal system on at various places so that when the subscription period of this item expires, the time is instantly renewed. This is possible because the bank is a centralized platform and has an authority team to manage it. But if Bitcoin is accepted for payment like Debit/Credit Card everywhere around the world. In that case how Bitcoin can provide auto renewal system where we use non-custodial wallet to hold Bitcoin. Which has full access to us, no one can control it if they want. what to you think about it. How Bitcoin can provide Subscription Auto Renewal solution?

Bitcoin will never provide an auto payment solution. The control of Bitcoin is completely in your hands, so there is no possibility of auto payment through Bitcoin on any site. And this is why Bitcoin is so secure then another payment gateway. And since no one can control Bitcoin, if you keep Bitcoin in a non-custodial wallet, there is no chance of auto payment on anywhere. And in this case, Bitcoin will not be able to provide a solution to the auto renewal system

I was thinking the same thing because Bitcoin is a decentralized currency that no one can control and its creator is still unknown. Only Bitcoin can control the amount that Bitcoin buys. so auto renewal solution probably won't happen. However, a custodial wallet can be setup for this solution. I was some confusion about this and that's why I ask it here. The Auto Renewal system is very popular today and will continue to be popular in the future. That is why it may have some impact on Bitcoin payment gateways as well

dansus021

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The simplest version

Yes you can do Auto Renewal but with third-party app using Bitcoin debit card basically, you just load up your Bitcoin into the 3rd wallet up so you can do Auto Renewal like a regular Debit card.

If I don't mistake companies like https://nexo.com/ offer borrowing to with the lowest interest but use your other crypto like Bitcoin to act as collateral. However I never tried it by myself so you need #DYOR Do your own research first.

also companies like Binance Crypto.com also offered Visa Debit card

UchihaSarada

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Quote from: Z_MBFM on September 21, 2023, 09:12:21 AM

In many cases, we keep the Auto Renewal system on at various places so that when the subscription period of this item expires, the time is instantly renewed. This is possible because the bank is a centralized platform and has an authority team to manage it. But if Bitcoin is accepted for payment like Debit/Credit Card everywhere around the world. In that case how Bitcoin can provide auto renewal system where we use non-custodial wallet to hold Bitcoin. Which has full access to us, no one can control it if they want. what to you think about it. How Bitcoin can provide Subscription Auto Renewal solution?

You must use script to auto broadcast your bitcoin transactions if you want to do Subscription Auto Renewal process.

If you are an individual user, you don't have to do this but if you are a business, it's a good solution. You can code your script or use some payment processor account.

You can use NLockTime for your raw transaction.

Using Locktime for inheritance planning, backups or gifts

vv181

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Quote from: tjtonmoy on September 21, 2023, 12:14:49 PM

Don't software wallets have a feature where you can make transactions based on a given time? I think I saw it somewhere. If anyone knows that please let me know. It's like the transaction won't go through if the targeted time or date isn't reached. If this is not available we can always use lock-time transactions. We can set a time when it will be released and confirmed.

Making a transaction based on a given time and locking bitcoins based on a date and time or blockheight is a different thing. As far as I know, the former is spending the coin but the latter making them unspendable. Also, lock-time transactions did not solve the issue as already addressed in some of the above posts. It is technically unfeasible within the Bitcoin protocol to create and adjust for this kind of use case. Hence there isn't any wallet implementation that is technically utilized for an automatic payment.

Though it could be solved by a wallet that automatically makes a set of the configured transactions, but, there is no wallet that implements such a feature.

GreatArkansas

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I know this is already happening in some cases, just like what hugeblack said there, you can do it with your own custodial Bitcoin wallet but a lot of things to do.
Another way is just in case it will also happen soon in a non-custodial wallet or for sure centralized will be a problem here and somehow we will able to transfer our Bitcoin instead to some centralized platform and do this auto-renewal solution.
I know a lot of businesses is really hoping for this, I already experienced this.

hatshepsut93

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Quote from: hugeblack on September 21, 2023, 09:30:08 AM

This can be done easily with the custodial wallet, but if you have a non-custodial wallet, you must write a library^[1] or use open source scripts^[2] that have automatic automation of transactions so that the amount of X is sent every first day of the month at 12:00 and thus you can automatically renew your service.

Foxpup did this with @LoyceV's Avatar

Quote from: Foxpup on August 30, 2023, 01:20:10 PM

Two hundred and thirty-second week paid.

Quote from: Foxpup on August 23, 2023, 01:20:04 PM

Two hundred and thirty-first week paid.

[1] https://github.com/ofek/bit
[2] https://electrum.readthedocs.io/en/latest/cmdline.html#how-to-use-the-daemon

Just keep in mind that if you make a mistake in your code and it sends the wrong amount, it would be nearly impossible to fix it. I suspect that some of those cases of enormous transaction fee could be a bug in automated script that mismatched the transaction amount and the fee, or miscalculated the fee.

LoyceV

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Quote from: hugeblack on September 21, 2023, 09:30:08 AM

Foxpup did this with @LoyceV's Avatar

That's incorrect. There may be time travel involved, but:

Quote from: Foxpup on July 26, 2023, 08:09:42 PM

note that all my payments are (and always have been) completely under manual control

Quote from: Z_MBFM on September 21, 2023, 09:12:21 AM

In that case how Bitcoin can provide auto renewal system where we use non-custodial wallet to hold Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is designed to be electronic cash. With cash, you can't really schedule payments, unless you create some automated payment system for it.

Quote from: rat03gopoh on September 21, 2023, 09:44:08 AM

The bitcoin protocol does not provide an automatic sending solution

And that's a good thing! The protocol doesn't need to do things that can be done in another way. The protocol has locktimes, you can for instance create several transactions that will only become valid in the future. Or a wallet can be coded to do exactly this, it could have a separate balance that isn't locked with a password that can be used to schedule sending funds. Even better if that's LN enabled.

Quote from: albert0bsd on September 21, 2023, 10:53:02 AM

Long answer, this only can be done on the client side. This is with custom scripts and cronjobs

This could easily be implemented in a wallet, say in Electrum. The fact that it hasn't been done yet makes me think there's no demand for it: anyone who wants to schedule payments (and those are mainly businesses) has another system to process payments from their wallets.

Quote

Time-locked transactions can work, but the user needs to reserve some Utxo for that. If the Utxo is spent before the date, the time-locked transactions become useless.

Spending the funds before the locktime can be seen as a way to cancel your subscription.

Quote

the Time-locked transactions is a policy for the mempool, but not for the miners I read before that if the time-locked transactions is sent to a miner they can mined that regardless of the time-locked restriction.

When using Locktime, the transaction is not valid before it reaches a certain block (or date). No miner can change that.

tjtonmoy

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Don't software wallets have a feature where you can make transactions based on a given time? I think I saw it somewhere. If anyone knows that please let me know. It's like the transaction won't go through if the targeted time or date isn't reached. If this is not available we can always use lock-time transactions. We can set a time when it will be released and confirmed.

We will still need to do it manually but it's only a one-time task, right? And for me personally, I would renew everything manually on my own. I don't know why it is needed.

NotATether

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We were having a discussion about this here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/a-smart-self-custodial-wallet-for-bitcoin-5467075 and the most simple answer that does not require any change to the protocol would be to utilize locktime and make a bunch of transactions that utilize CPFP feature. It's not perfect, but it is a basic solution.

jossiel

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A third party and custodial can.

Bitcoin alone with the non custodial wallet, it's highly unlikely. There's already the detailed explanations above with that. So, it's like with exchanges that we've got accounts and that will serve as the bank that has that auto-renewal payment feature.

Honestly, if there are payments that I need to pay. I like it more when I do it manually.

albert0bsd

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Short answer, the bitcoin protocol can't do that.

Long answer, this only can be done on the client side. This is with custom scripts and cronjobs, but that has another problem for the final user, they need to have their privatekey in some computer. Also there is no waranty that there is going to be utxos available for it

Time-locked transactions can work, but the user needs to reserve some Utxo for that. If the Utxo is spent before the date, the time-locked transactions become useless.
Also for this approach there is a problem: the Time-locked transactions is a policy for the mempool, but not for the miners I read before that if the time-locked transactions is sent to a miner they can mined that regardless of the time-locked restriction.

Pmalek

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A time-locked transaction isn't what you are looking for but it can perhaps serve as an alternative if you don't want to put your coins in the hands of a custodian. It doesn't make automatic payments possible, though. But you can configure it in a way where the coins become spendable only after the blockchain reaches a certain block height. That block height can be the approximate date when you need to make your new payment in similar fashion as it's used to predict at what time the next halving is for example.

Beerwizzard

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Quote from: hugeblack on September 21, 2023, 09:30:08 AM

This can be done easily with the custodial wallet, but if you have a non-custodial wallet, you must write a library^[1] or use open source scripts^[2] that have automatic automation of transactions so that the amount of X is sent every first day of the month at 12:00 and thus you can automatically renew your service.

Sounds like it can work like that, but there is still a problem that in such case the entire subscription process takes place only in client's wallet while the service also needs to collect this data in order to have the correct metrics (which are essential for development of the project's business strategy) . Therefore, for such option the wallet needs to share the data with a service and for the time being I don't see any way to bypass it.

348Judah

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Quote from: Z_MBFM on September 21, 2023, 09:12:21 AM

In that case how Bitcoin can provide auto renewal system where we use non-custodial wallet to hold Bitcoin. Which has full access to us, no one can control it if they want. what to you think about it. How Bitcoin can provide Subscription Auto Renewal solution?

I don't know the auto renewal you are referring to in this regard because if you're using the bank, it's not anyone's function to make use of your debit card, you engage doing everything you do by yourself, it's all happened through your authorization and initiation, while im using bitcoin, these protocols are not controlled by anyone, they were made available on the blockchain and cannot be altered by anyone, if you're making a transaction, spending or receiving a coin all work by the blockchain technology consensus, any other contrary opinions are rejected by the system, isn't it more better that you enjoy decentralization and privacy with bitcoin than using fiat, nothing like auto renewal with bitcoin, you don't have to pay for a service, wallet or the blockchain technology, everything works in consensus to the protocols, remember this is digital currency we are talking about.

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Quote from: Z_MBFM on September 21, 2023, 09:12:21 AM

In many cases, we keep the Auto Renewal system on at various places so that when the subscription period of this item expires, the time is instantly renewed. This is possible because the bank is a centralized platform and has an authority team to manage it. But if Bitcoin is accepted for payment like Debit/Credit Card everywhere around the world. In that case how Bitcoin can provide auto renewal system where we use non-custodial wallet to hold Bitcoin. Which has full access to us, no one can control it if they want. what to you think about it. How Bitcoin can provide Subscription Auto Renewal solution?

Bitcoin will never provide an auto payment solution. The control of Bitcoin is completely in your hands, so there is no possibility of auto payment through Bitcoin on any site. And this is why Bitcoin is so secure then another payment gateway. And since no one can control Bitcoin, if you keep Bitcoin in a non-custodial wallet, there is no chance of auto payment on anywhere. And in this case, Bitcoin will not be able to provide a solution to the auto renewal system

rat03gopoh

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The bitcoin protocol does not provide an automatic sending solution, it will be a wallet which must be enriched with the functions you request. And it will likely become a centralized wallet, especially if the subscription platform only accepts fiat (so far there are no well-known subscription platforms that accept bitcoin directly).

CryptoHeadlineNews

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Quote from: Z_MBFM on September 21, 2023, 09:12:21 AM

In many cases, we keep the Auto Renewal system on at various places so that when the subscription period of this item expires, the time is instantly renewed. This is possible because the bank is a centralized platform and has an authority team to manage it. But if Bitcoin is accepted for payment like Debit/Credit Card everywhere around the world. In that case how Bitcoin can provide auto renewal system where we use non-custodial wallet to hold Bitcoin. Which has full access to us, no one can control it if they want. what to you think about it. How Bitcoin can provide a Subscription Auto Renewal solution?

If auto-renewal can be possible with Bitcoin, then I see no difference with it from our traditional centralized banking system, but I think such feature can only be possible with centralized exchange/wallet whereby they own the private key to your funds, and not on a non-custodial wallet whereby only you and you alone own & knows the private key to your funds. Because the ability of a transaction not to be executed without a user's instant authorization is one of the beauty about Bitcoin.
But moreover, let's hear what others has to say regarding this.

hugeblack

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This can be done easily with the custodial wallet, but if you have a non-custodial wallet, you must write a library^[1] or use open source scripts^[2] that have automatic automation of transactions so that the amount of X is sent every first day of the month at 12:00 and thus you can automatically renew your service.

Foxpup did this with @LoyceV's Avatar

Quote from: Foxpup on August 30, 2023, 01:20:10 PM

Two hundred and thirty-second week paid.

Quote from: Foxpup on August 23, 2023, 01:20:04 PM

Two hundred and thirty-first week paid.

[1] https://github.com/ofek/bit
[2] https://electrum.readthedocs.io/en/latest/cmdline.html#how-to-use-the-daemon

Z_MBFM

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In many cases, we keep the Auto Renewal system on at various places so that when the subscription period of this item expires, the time is instantly renewed. This is possible because the bank is a centralized platform and has an authority team to manage it. But if Bitcoin is accepted for payment like Debit/Credit Card everywhere around the world. In that case how Bitcoin can provide auto renewal system where we use non-custodial wallet to hold Bitcoin. Which has full access to us, no one can control it if they want. what to you think about it. How Bitcoin can provide Subscription Auto Renewal solution?

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