How Bitcoin was hijacked and centralized

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: coinfinger on July 24, 2020, 07:57:24 AM

Miners can merge, I don’t really see anything wrong with it. Even if they merge it still doesn’t stop the competition, there will still be that competition, because there are still other mining companies. Smaller companies of miners can decide to come together so that they will be able to get better rewards, it’s not bad. And moreover these days you can’t mine alone, it’s not like it used to be in the past when you can easily just buy a miner and stay at home and be mining with your computer, nah this time around you have to join a pool before you will be able to get rewards.

Even due to miners' consortium they may work together and may decide things like corporate but all will be possible until they face another competitor. I mean it is highly possible another big players to be joining bitcoin mining to compete against the current players. So, their unite will not work for them forever.

Miners merging causes centralization. When miners merge and form corporations, we are back in a centralized banking system and there is no new innovation going on there. Mind as well use Paypal or your web bank. They are probably also much faster than Bitcoin. A dynamic blocksize prevents miners from merging because they have no benefit from doing that.

coinfinger

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Miners can merge, I don’t really see anything wrong with it. Even if they merge it still doesn’t stop the competition, there will still be that competition, because there are still other mining companies. Smaller companies of miners can decide to come together so that they will be able to get better rewards, it’s not bad. And moreover these days you can’t mine alone, it’s not like it used to be in the past when you can easily just buy a miner and stay at home and be mining with your computer, nah this time around you have to join a pool before you will be able to get rewards.

Even due to miners' consortium they may work together and may decide things like corporate but all will be possible until they face another competitor. I mean it is highly possible another big players to be joining bitcoin mining to compete against the current players. So, their unite will not work for them forever.

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: Reid on July 22, 2020, 11:54:59 AM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 22, 2020, 09:11:32 AM

What proof? Just use your brain. What do you think Blockstream is then? How do you think it has such a major influence on Bitcoin?

I am using my brain which is why I warned you.
I dont think there is a good reason to talk with you.
Something is eating you.
I dont know if it is hate or whatever it is but it aint good.

You need a breather man.
Whichever or whoever is feeding you this could be bad for your health. Grin

Oooh. I'm so afraid. Are you going to stone me to death with heavy chunks of Bitcoin? Comon answer the question mr Hero member Bitcoins expert using your mighty brain. What do you think Blockstream is?

oleg681010

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The government wants to control bitcoin, and I think that in the end they will be able to do it.

Reid

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 22, 2020, 09:11:32 AM

What proof? Just use your brain. What do you think Blockstream is then? How do you think it has such a major influence on Bitcoin?

I am using my brain which is why I warned you.
I dont think there is a good reason to talk with you.
Something is eating you.
I dont know if it is hate or whatever it is but it aint good.

You need a breather man.
Whichever or whoever is feeding you this could be bad for your health. Grin

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: Reid on July 22, 2020, 08:18:44 AM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 09:26:33 AM

This is what happened in 2013-1014. Bitcoin has a design flaw (increasing blocksize) that makes it distribute mining rewards unfairly, so the miners started merging into mining unions to agree about sharing the rewards equally.

Proof please?
I can tell you the same thing but facts are difficult to get.
That is the difference.

Please do have something if you are trying to convince us.
I don't see that for now. Maybe someday?
I do agree about miners having a consensus but also have the same thread but been bashed by royalties of the forum.
So, I am just giving you a heads up.

What proof? Just use your brain. What do you think Blockstream is then? How do you think it has such a major influence on Bitcoin?

Reid

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 09:26:33 AM

This is what happened in 2013-1014. Bitcoin has a design flaw (increasing blocksize) that makes it distribute mining rewards unfairly, so the miners started merging into mining unions to agree about sharing the rewards equally.

Proof please?
I can tell you the same thing but facts are difficult to get.
That is the difference.

Please do have something if you are trying to convince us.
I don't see that for now. Maybe someday?
I do agree about miners having a consensus but also have the same thread but been bashed by royalties of the forum.
So, I am just giving you a heads up.

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: Etsu on July 20, 2020, 05:09:46 PM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 09:26:33 AM

This is what happened in 2013-1014. Bitcoin has a design flaw (increasing blocksize) that makes it distribute mining rewards unfairly, so the miners started merging into mining unions to agree about sharing the rewards equally. The largest merger was named Blockstream which pretty much controls all Bitcoins miners and developers.

Your opinion might be true but you should have back it up with facts, there are certain flows with the blockchain network but i don't think the main vision and concept of bitcoin is highjacked.... Miners teaming up to optimize their profits dosen't mean the entire bitcoin network isn't decentralized again... Almost everything still works fine and the network seems to be attracting more and more of people looking for financial freedom daily

Yes, the original vision is not hijacked. It lives on in Monero, where all these Bitcoins prototype design flaws are all fixed and improved. Dynamic blocksize eliminates the miners need to merge and stealth ledger and other improved privacy features conceal their identities and locations better.

Etsu

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 09:26:33 AM

This is what happened in 2013-1014. Bitcoin has a design flaw (increasing blocksize) that makes it distribute mining rewards unfairly, so the miners started merging into mining unions to agree about sharing the rewards equally. The largest merger was named Blockstream which pretty much controls all Bitcoins miners and developers.

Your opinion might be true but you should have back it up with facts, there are certain flows with the blockchain network but i don't think the main vision and concept of bitcoin is highjacked.... Miners teaming up to optimize their profits dosen't mean the entire bitcoin network isn't decentralized again... Almost everything still works fine and the network seems to be attracting more and more of people looking for financial freedom daily

boyptc

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★Bitvest.io★ Play Plinko or Invest!

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 11:19:19 AM

Yeah well Paypal is still better faster and cheaper. I don't see why I need to buy Bitcoin just to buy something from Japan.

If that's what you think, I can't change that because it's what you think. You are literally saying with the few usage of bitcoin that I've given as an example. I've said that it just the few use of bitcoin.

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 11:19:19 AM

A ponzi is something that relies only on new recruits to grow. Since when was Bitcoin backed by something else than new recruits?

Then miners won't be mining paying for electricity to maintain the network secured.

Btw for PayPal was said to venture in crypto.

btc_angela

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 19, 2020, 08:45:40 AM

Quote from: amishmanish on July 19, 2020, 07:42:40 AM

In the hall of shame of FUDsters, you are just a noob OP. These are old tactics. Blockstream is just one of the several such entities. Blockstream is the most common target because it has a lot of erstwhile Anti Big blockers and has been the most vocal in opposing Wu and Ver's propaganda. Samson Mow, Adam back etc constantly confront these people on twitter, including the BSV shills. When it comes to core developers, there are multiple other companies as well as independent developers that form what FUDsters love to refer as Core.

Haha yeah right. A noob would totally know these things. Sure it might climb in value. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying it's not a decentralized peer-to-peer digital cash as the whitepaper used to say. I think you're a noob if you don't know that Moneros dynamic blocksize actually prevents this whole merger of miner and hijack of the dev team. The exposed dev team is the most vulnerable part of any crypto project.

So what's your point? all of us leave bitcoin just because it's no longer a "decentralized peer-to-peer digital cash as the whitepaper say"? Or are you confusing newbies and beginners here with you argument and question bitcoin and shift to Monero?

amishmanish

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 19, 2020, 08:45:40 AM

Quote from: amishmanish on July 19, 2020, 07:42:40 AM

In the hall of shame of FUDsters, you are just a noob OP. These are old tactics. Blockstream is just one of the several such entities. Blockstream is the most common target because it has a lot of erstwhile Anti Big blockers and has been the most vocal in opposing Wu and Ver's propaganda. Samson Mow, Adam back etc constantly confront these people on twitter, including the BSV shills. When it comes to core developers, there are multiple other companies as well as independent developers that form what FUDsters love to refer as Core.

Haha yeah right. A noob would totally know these things. Sure it might climb in value. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying it's not a decentralized peer-to-peer digital cash as the whitepaper used to say. I think you're a noob if you don't know that Moneros dynamic blocksize actually prevents this whole merger of miner and hijack of the dev team. The exposed dev team is the most vulnerable part of any crypto project.

Okay so apart from being a bitcoin FUDster, you are here to promote Monero. Well, there is no need to have a beef then. Monero will always have its niche users. You don't need to pit them against each other. Bitcoin has gained considerable network effect, institutional interest and market stability. In comparison, Monero has enforced privacy by design. The fact that it obfuscates everything makes it a niche option.

Talking about "hijack of dev team" is just your opinion. The contributors and those sponsoring them are as diverse as they come. Bitcoin's development continues to show a high level of integrity sticking to the basics. Stick to monero if you want but it is no use trying to go against the honey badger of crypto.

Zionatin

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Errr.... What? Huh? I think you need to do a little more research there. To me centralized means I do not own it. The money in the bank you don't really own unlike crypto which is yours and yours alone. There is no central authority. You cannot control it. Buddy if there was a central authority then bitcoins price could be predicted and manipulated easily. It just isn't the case.
And yes many people use it. Go look at websites that you can work at or earn money from the payout in crypto. Even large companies are.

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: amishmanish on July 19, 2020, 07:42:40 AM

In the hall of shame of FUDsters, you are just a noob OP. These are old tactics. Blockstream is just one of the several such entities. Blockstream is the most common target because it has a lot of erstwhile Anti Big blockers and has been the most vocal in opposing Wu and Ver's propaganda. Samson Mow, Adam back etc constantly confront these people on twitter, including the BSV shills. When it comes to core developers, there are multiple other companies as well as independent developers that form what FUDsters love to refer as Core.

Haha yeah right. A noob would totally know these things. Sure it might climb in value. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying it's not a decentralized peer-to-peer digital cash as the whitepaper used to say. I think you're a noob if you don't know that Moneros dynamic blocksize actually prevents this whole merger of miner and hijack of the dev team. The exposed dev team is the most vulnerable part of any crypto project.

amishmanish

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In the hall of shame of FUDsters, you are just a noob OP. These are old tactics. Blockstream is just one of the several such entities. Blockstream is the most common target because it has a lot of erstwhile Anti Big blockers and has been the most vocal in opposing Wu and Ver's propaganda. Samson Mow, Adam back etc constantly confront these people on twitter, including the BSV shills. When it comes to core developers, there are multiple other companies as well as independent developers that form what FUDsters love to refer as Core.

djcaoile1205

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Centralization of bitcoin begins after big populization of asics. Since them, a lot of hash power under China jurisdiction

UmerIdrees

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 03:13:47 PM

Quote from: Coin_Wow on July 18, 2020, 02:56:19 PM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 11:19:19 AM

Yeah well Paypal is still better faster and cheaper. I don't see why I need to buy Bitcoin just to buy something from Japan. A ponzi is something that relies only on new recruits to grow. Since when was Bitcoin backed by something else than new recruits?

Paypal has burned way too many people, with frozen accounts, etc, for you to win that one.

A ponzi is something that relies only on new recruits to grow, and BTC has that in common, to some extent. However, gold is not a Ponzi and someone has to buy the newly mined gold or prices will eventually crash.

Sure, Paypal sucks. It was an intentionally ridiculous example. We need to learn from these Bitcoins design flaws which are increasing blocks size and the transparent ledger. These two features lead to the centralization of Bitcoin. For example Monero has a dynamic block size which eliminates the need for miners to merge as unions and the stealth ledger that prevents identifying user, node or miner.

I don't like pay pal because it is not being used in my country and there is one feature to reverse a transactions which most people don't recommend. Bitcoin is far better than paypal. Things like double spending's in bitcoin etc are practically impossible to happen.

royalfestus

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I am trying to get the contrast of the blockstream mining and the decentralized nature of bitcoin. The mining process from equal profiting does not look longterm, the coin needed more miners around the world which more purpose than profit but security to the space. Adam back wont ever desire the technology to go back to that and I think the wise miners should be holding on to enough coin to take care of their lives.

Bttzed03

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Quote from: stompix on July 18, 2020, 10:25:51 AM

~
Is the usual stuff, people make outrageous claims but when they are asked for proofs you have to find it yourself as it's beyond their "duty" to inform you of that as well. He's not the first and he will not be the last, he strats with 1% of truth and ends up with a claim of bitcoin being a ponzi because a company that sells insurance in France is giving money to a group of people. Grin

Oh, and no, OP is not part of the bsh bch groups, he is having his own dream of "proof of bandwidth" in the P&D section but he's yet to understand that even his own project can turn into a monopoly without regulation. The same story, everyone who was late to the party has a solution to fix something that is not broken with something broken from the start.

Indeed, it's not the first post criticizing Bitcoin that I've seen here. They just come in to post crap without anything to back it up then fade away which kinda sucks because it would have been a good opportunity for a good discussion and learning (for them most especially).

I didn't realize it's another attempt to promote a "Bitcoin killer" like what the BCH/BSV ~~cult~~ group have been trying for years now. I should have checked OP's post history first

hatshepsut93

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Quote from: gentlemand on July 18, 2020, 04:05:35 PM

Very dinky post by OP.

I assume this is a bot programmed to gather everyone's favourite clapped out old squit and group it together for our reading enjoyment. We have however read it many, many, many, many times before.

OP is just shilling for their hypothetical mesh network altcoin by attacking Bitcoin and other coins. It's quite lame to do so instead of actually providing a better alternative and watching it win through a fair competition, but it's the way of all lazy people. It's just like CWS or Roger Ver who spend way more time shitting on Bitcoin rather then developing their own coin. Just ignore the troll.

MCobian

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I do not agree that Blockstream controls Bitcoin miners and developers, there is no evidence in this regard. And until now popularity
and the demand for Bitcoin is high enough to prove that many people believe and use Bitcoin. My advice do not accuse bad things about
Bitcoin without any evidence, I think with your accusations against Bitcoin has proven you are anti-Bitcoin. Maybe you are right about
many coins are better than Bitcoin, but not all coins have the same trust and popularity as Bitcoin.

gentlemand

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Welt Am Draht

Very dinky post by OP.

I assume this is a bot programmed to gather everyone's favourite clapped out old squit and group it together for our reading enjoyment. We have however read it many, many, many, many times before.

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: Coin_Wow on July 18, 2020, 02:56:19 PM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 11:19:19 AM

Yeah well Paypal is still better faster and cheaper. I don't see why I need to buy Bitcoin just to buy something from Japan. A ponzi is something that relies only on new recruits to grow. Since when was Bitcoin backed by something else than new recruits?

Paypal has burned way too many people, with frozen accounts, etc, for you to win that one.

A ponzi is something that relies only on new recruits to grow, and BTC has that in common, to some extent. However, gold is not a Ponzi and someone has to buy the newly mined gold or prices will eventually crash.

Sure, Paypal sucks. It was an intentionally ridiculous example. We need to learn from these Bitcoins design flaws which are increasing blocks size and the transparent ledger. These two features lead to the centralization of Bitcoin. For example Monero has a dynamic block size which eliminates the need for miners to merge as unions and the stealth ledger that prevents identifying user, node or miner.

Coin_Wow

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 11:19:19 AM

Yeah well Paypal is still better faster and cheaper. I don't see why I need to buy Bitcoin just to buy something from Japan. A ponzi is something that relies only on new recruits to grow. Since when was Bitcoin backed by something else than new recruits?

Paypal has burned way too many people, with frozen accounts, etc, for you to win that one.

A ponzi is something that relies only on new recruits to grow, and BTC has that in common, to some extent. However, gold is not a Ponzi and someone has to buy the newly mined gold or prices will eventually crash.

chmod755

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 02:44:33 PM

My point is that it's a lie. Bitcoin is nothing special anymore. There's much better cryptos that work much better.

That's true, I recently tried nano, did not buy nano, but for payments? I'd use that instead of BTC.

Development is also centralized in BTC: 97.6% of all nodes are Core (source: https://coin.dance/nodes)

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: mindrust on July 18, 2020, 11:26:43 AM

Let's assume what you said was true for a moment;

It there weren't blockstream/AXA, there would be bitmain&Ver Co.

Sorry, I'd rather prefer blockstream.

If bitcoin doesn't work for you, you are free to use something else.

Quote from: philipma1957 on July 18, 2020, 10:01:01 AM

Well op has a few points.

BTC will never scale. it now does 300,000 transactions to 500,000 daily transactions = it will never scale up. It is much better for large value movements. Much like a 10,000 USD bond.

No crypto will ever scale.

Quote from: philipma1957 on July 18, 2020, 10:01:01 AM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 09:52:50 AM

A shitcoin is something like Bitcoin. that's just a ponzi and has no actual utility.

A Blatantly false statement should get him flagged and banned.

No, that's freedom of speech. No flag, no ban is needed. People have the right to hate bitcoin too.

My point is that it's a lie. Bitcoin is nothing special anymore. There's much better cryptos that work much better.

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: The Cryptovator on July 18, 2020, 11:54:10 AM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 11:19:19 AM

Yeah well Paypal is still better faster and cheaper. I don't see why I need to buy Bitcoin just to buy something from Japan. A ponzi is something that relies only on new recruits to grow. Since when was Bitcoin backed by something else than new recruits?

Who are pushing you to buy bitcoin? Stuck with PayPal if you need to use it. We aren't saying PayPal is bad, but at the same time Bitcoin isn't bad for us. Do you know what is a Ponzi scheme? Read this article. Here is an important quote;

Quote

A Ponzi scheme (/ˈpɒnzi/, Italian: [ˈpontsi]; also a Ponzi game)[1] is a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors.[2] The scheme leads victims to believe that profits are coming from product sales or other means, and they remain unaware that other investors are the source of funds.

Once you will read Bold part then you should realize Bitcoin isn't a Ponzi scheme. Because its not promising you anything during buy, you are just buying a digital currency, so exactly we can't say it as an investment.This is the peer to peer decentralized electronic money. Of course bitcoin isn't backed by any centralized organization and that's why still we could say Bitcoin is decentralized. But Bitcoin is backed by the community which is stronger than any centralized organization.

Yeah so where are the profits with Bitcoin coming from? If you insist on using a cryptocurrency that's actually consistent with Satoshis original vision, why not use Monero?

The Cryptovator

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Signature space for rent

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 11:19:19 AM

Yeah well Paypal is still better faster and cheaper. I don't see why I need to buy Bitcoin just to buy something from Japan. A ponzi is something that relies only on new recruits to grow. Since when was Bitcoin backed by something else than new recruits?

Who are pushing you to buy bitcoin? Stuck with PayPal if you need to use it. We aren't saying PayPal is bad, but at the same time Bitcoin isn't bad for us. Do you know what is a Ponzi scheme? Read this article. Here is an important quote;

Quote

A Ponzi scheme (/ˈpɒnzi/, Italian: [ˈpontsi]; also a Ponzi game)[1] is a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors.[2] The scheme leads victims to believe that profits are coming from product sales or other means, and they remain unaware that other investors are the source of funds.

Once you will read Bold part then you should realize Bitcoin isn't a Ponzi scheme. Because its not promising you anything during buy, you are just buying a digital currency, so exactly we can't say it as an investment.This is the peer to peer decentralized electronic money. Of course bitcoin isn't backed by any centralized organization and that's why still we could say Bitcoin is decentralized. But Bitcoin is backed by the community which is stronger than any centralized organization.

mindrust

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Let's assume what you said was true for a moment;

It there weren't blockstream/AXA, there would be bitmain&Ver Co.

Sorry, I'd rather prefer blockstream.

If bitcoin doesn't work for you, you are free to use something else.

Quote from: philipma1957 on July 18, 2020, 10:01:01 AM

Well op has a few points.

BTC will never scale. it now does 300,000 transactions to 500,000 daily transactions = it will never scale up. It is much better for large value movements. Much like a 10,000 USD bond.

No crypto will ever scale.

Quote from: philipma1957 on July 18, 2020, 10:01:01 AM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 09:52:50 AM

A shitcoin is something like Bitcoin. that's just a ponzi and has no actual utility.

A Blatantly false statement should get him flagged and banned.

No, that's freedom of speech. No flag, no ban is needed. People have the right to hate bitcoin too.

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: boyptc on July 18, 2020, 10:49:16 AM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 09:52:50 AM

A shitcoin is something like Bitcoin. that's just a ponzi

Since when bitcoin became a Ponzi?

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 09:52:50 AM

and has no actual utility.

To name a few.

--> https://www.financemagnates.com/cryptocurrency/news/japans-largest-consumer-electronics-chain-now-accepts-bitcoin/

--> https://micky.com.au/pay-with-bitcoin-at-brisbane-airport/

Yeah well Paypal is still better faster and cheaper. I don't see why I need to buy Bitcoin just to buy something from Japan. A ponzi is something that relies only on new recruits to grow. Since when was Bitcoin backed by something else than new recruits?

Jet Cash

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Of course it is now centralised and controlled. All miners have to wear mouse masks and blocks have to maintain social distances

target

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Quote from: boyptc on July 18, 2020, 10:49:16 AM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 09:52:50 AM

A shitcoin is something like Bitcoin. that's just a ponzi

Since when bitcoin became a Ponzi?

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 09:52:50 AM

and has no actual utility.

To name a few.

--> https://www.financemagnates.com/cryptocurrency/news/japans-largest-consumer-electronics-chain-now-accepts-bitcoin/

--> https://micky.com.au/pay-with-bitcoin-at-brisbane-airport/

Its not the kind of utility that he meant. Merchants accepting BTC is a kind utility that is from the outside of its blockchain. Ether for example does function as gas fees to every token to be sent to an address, thats a kind of utility within the ETH network.

Somehow there is a gran of truth to his claim. But one thing that is real in BTC is the security. So far its enough to build the ecosystem to run.

You'd have to ask what difference will it have if japans-largest-consumer-electronics-chain also accepts ETH and Brisbane airport also accepts ETH?

boyptc

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 09:52:50 AM

A shitcoin is something like Bitcoin. that's just a ponzi

Since when bitcoin became a Ponzi?

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 09:52:50 AM

and has no actual utility.

To name a few.

--> https://www.financemagnates.com/cryptocurrency/news/japans-largest-consumer-electronics-chain-now-accepts-bitcoin/

--> https://micky.com.au/pay-with-bitcoin-at-brisbane-airport/

stompix

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Blackjack.fun

Quote from: Bttzed03 on July 18, 2020, 10:04:24 AM

When you make outrageous claims such Blockstream controlling miners, you should at least provide a link. That way, readers can raise a counter argument.

Which of the bitcoin mining pools do they control?
I hope you're not using Ver's conspiracy theories as basis for your post.

Is the usual stuff, people make outrageous claims but when they are asked for proofs you have to find it yourself as it's beyond their "duty" to inform you of that as well. He's not the first and he will not be the last, he strats with 1% of truth and ends up with a claim of bitcoin being a ponzi because a company that sells insurance in France is giving money to a group of people. Grin

Oh, and no, OP is not part of the bsh bch groups, he is having his own dream of "proof of bandwidth" in the P&D section but he's yet to understand that even his own project can turn into a monopoly without regulation. The same story, everyone who was late to the party has a solution to fix something that is not broken with something broken from the start.

Quote from: philipma1957 on July 18, 2020, 10:01:01 AM

A Blatantly false statement should get him flagged and banned.

Freedom of speech Phil, freedom of speech for everyone, no matter how stupid he is and how many lies he types.
Good old freedom that blessed us with hundreds and thousands of shills since Butterfly Labs Wink

mk4

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Quote from: philipma1957 on July 18, 2020, 10:09:19 AM

I feel that Lightning or layer 2 will not work fairly for miners.

I really don't see it as almost every single transaction will be on lightning. I see it as only the smaller amounts(probably 0.02 BTC and below?) going through lightning, whereas transactions above that will be made in the base chain.

Sure, probably less fees for the miners in theory, but if lightning does gain adoption, what would be the point of other payments-focused cryptocurrencies? People would most likely head back to Bitcoin and use it instead, hence increasing the total daily transactions(both in LN and in the base-chain) somewhat balancing out in the end in terms off profit for the miners.

Though I haven't really checked out statistics of transaction values so yea. Time will tell.

philipma1957

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Quote from: mk4 on July 18, 2020, 10:03:41 AM

Quote from: philipma1957 on July 18, 2020, 10:01:01 AM

BTC will never scale. it now does 300,000 transactions to 500,000 daily transactions = it will never scale up. It is much better for large value movements. Much like a 10,000 USD bond.

I'd say don't sleep on Lightning or layer 2 solutions in general. They're definitely not in their best form right now, but there's definitely progress.

If you get those solutions to work I will be impressed.

But read my signature I am much more down with a multiple coin solution then Lightning or layer 2.

I feel that Lightning or layer 2 will not work fairly for miners.

"The original idea was turning power into coins"

If Lightning and Layer 2 fully is worked in I feel miners will be all industrial. All large scale which is not what I see as best.

If it were best the world would work well and it sure as fuck works like crap for 99.5% of the people.

Bttzed03

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https://bitcoincleanup.com/

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 09:43:26 AM

~
Look it up. The truth is out there

When you make outrageous claims such Blockstream controlling miners, you should at least provide a link. That way, readers can raise a counter argument.

Which of the bitcoin mining pools do they control?

I hope you're not using Ver's conspiracy theories as basis for your post.

mk4

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Quote from: philipma1957 on July 18, 2020, 10:01:01 AM

BTC will never scale. it now does 300,000 transactions to 500,000 daily transactions = it will never scale up. It is much better for large value movements. Much like a 10,000 USD bond.

I'd say don't sleep on Lightning or layer 2 solutions in general. They're definitely not in their best form right now, but there's definitely progress.

philipma1957

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'The right to privacy matters'

Well op has a few points.

BTC will never scale. it now does 300,000 transactions to 500,000 daily transactions = it will never scale up. It is much better for large value movements. Much like a 10,000 USD bond.

I have looked a lot at the setup of pow coins. to me something below may be good.

BTC = 10,000USD and up value movements. very good price to move large amounts very secure.

LTC = 500-10,000USD value movements. very good price to move medium value very secure and faster then btc

Doge = 1 to 500USD. one of the cheapest of all to move coins. super fast.

All of the above are very secure.

All of the above are backed with a lot of ASICs miners.

If you want a money system the three above work really well.

All other coins are more or less for trading on exchanges.

But you could maybe supplement most if not all fiat with those three coins.

I still find a flaw with all of them. The 1/2 ings come too quickly and all will have issues when rewards get too small.

And while I typed op said a statement that deserves a permaban.

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 09:52:50 AM

Quote from: arbiter5 on July 18, 2020, 09:50:05 AM

Uhuh. Now what? You're going to shill us BSV or whatever your stupid shitcoin of choice is?

You idiots really need to create new false narratives to at least come close to convincing people because you idiots have been using the same false narratives for YEARS. People like you are like the flat-earthers and the anti-vaxxers of the Bitcoin world.

A shitcoin is something like Bitcoin. that's just a ponzi and has no actual utility.

A Blatantly false statement should get him flagged and banned.

arbiter5

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The Nomad

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 09:52:50 AM

Quote from: arbiter5 on July 18, 2020, 09:50:05 AM

Uhuh. Now what? You're going to shill us BSV or whatever your stupid shitcoin of choice is?

You idiots really need to create new false narratives to at least come close to convincing people because you idiots have been using the same false narratives for YEARS. People like you are like the flat-earthers and the anti-vaxxers of the Bitcoin world.

A shitcoin is something like Bitcoin. that's just a ponzi and has no actual utility.

If you think Bitcoin is a ponzi then you need to grab a dictionary because you're full of shit and it seems like you don't even know what a Ponzi scheme is in the first place.

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: arbiter5 on July 18, 2020, 09:50:05 AM

Uhuh. Now what? You're going to shill us BSV or whatever your stupid shitcoin of choice is?

You idiots really need to create new false narratives to at least come close to convincing people because you idiots have been using the same false narratives for YEARS. People like you are like the flat-earthers and the anti-vaxxers of the Bitcoin world.

A shitcoin is something like Bitcoin. that's just a ponzi and has no actual utility.

arbiter5

full member

Activity: 218

Merit: 105

The Nomad

Uhuh. Now what? You're going to shill us BSV or whatever your stupid shitcoin of choice is?

You idiots really need to create new false narratives to at least come close to convincing people because you idiots have been using the same false narratives for YEARS. People like you are like the flat-earthers and the anti-vaxxers of the Bitcoin world.

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: stompix on July 18, 2020, 09:39:13 AM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 09:26:33 AM

It's too slow and nobody uses it.

Transactions last 24H - 313,697.
How is that possible when nobody is using it? Roll Eyes

Coin speculation is not a real utility and user case.

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 09:26:33 AM

Bitcoin has a design flaw that makes it distribute mining rewards unfairly, so the miners started merging into mining unions to agree about sharing the rewards equally.

Wait, so the Miner's Union fixed the imaginary flaw? Grin

It's not an imaginary flaw. Bitcoin still has the increasing blocksize, which deals rewards unevenly.

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 09:26:33 AM

The largest merger was named Blockstream which pretty much controls all Bitcoins miners

And your proof for this is.....

Look it up. The truth is out there

mk4

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Man, since when did Blockstream controlled all the miners? They released their mining pool[1] just last year lol. And it looks like almost no one uses the Blockstream pool[2] anyway.

As for the development side, they do have a significant effect. But you might want to check out the GitHub contributors[3] of the past months. Funny how FUDders never mention Chaincode Labs lmao.

[1] https://blockstream.com/2019/08/08/en-mining-launch/
[2] https://coin.dance/blocks/allhashthisweek
[3] https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/graphs/contributors

stompix

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Blackjack.fun

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 09:26:33 AM

It's too slow and nobody uses it.

Transactions last 24H - 313,697.
How is that possible when nobody is using it? Roll Eyes

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 09:26:33 AM

Bitcoin has a design flaw that makes it distribute mining rewards unfairly, so the miners started merging into mining unions to agree about sharing the rewards equally.

Wait, so the Miner's Union fixed the imaginary flaw? Grin

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 18, 2020, 09:26:33 AM

The largest merger was named Blockstream which pretty much controls all Bitcoins miners

And your proof for this is.....

FreeStreamer

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This is what happened in 2013-1014. Bitcoin has a design flaw (increasing blocksize) that makes it distribute mining rewards unfairly, so the miners started merging into mining unions to agree about sharing the rewards equally. The largest merger was named Blockstream which pretty much controls all Bitcoins miners and developers. In 2014 Blockstream become a corporation with a CEO. Adam Back. The parent company of Blockstream is AXA group, which is a multi national French insurance corporation. So don't say that Bitcoin is decentralized. This design flaw has caused it that it's no longer consistent with its own whitepaper. The promise of a decentralized P2P digital cash. It's too slow and nobody seems to be using it. Monero however is consistent with the original vision, because these design flaws have been fixed in Monero with a dynamic blocksize and stealth ledger.

Topic: How Bitcoin was hijacked and centralized (Read 591 times)