Topic: how businesses swindle the minimum wage employee (Read 574 times)

forget the £$5 amount.. its was just a demonstration

ok take ANY COUNTRY
take that countries minimum wage per hour and call it 100% hourly

now imagine someone told you they are paid contracted 8 hours a day, 5 days a week for 52 weeks
now also call that 100% yearly

now that someone wants to convince you that he is getting better than 100% contract.
by saying out of the 52 weeks he is paid he is only physically working 48 weeks due to paid vacation
meaning he calculates it as 108.3% for physical labour time

then you counter argue by asking him of the 8 hours a day PAY, how much TIME is he away from home to comply with businesses policy needs of his time
and he says 9.5hours

at the hourly rate that means he is paid on average, not 100% not 108% but 84.2%

now if you calculate it out
whilst he pretends in first debate he only physically is working for 8 hours for 5 days for 48 weeks (1920 hours) to get the yearly sum of 100% (2080hours pay representing time including the 4 weeks vacation). the guy does not realise he is for them 48 weeks actually in attendance at work for 2280 hours
which means the sum of 8*5*52 yearly pay is 2080
but his physical presence of 9.5*5*48 is 2280

so he is working an extra 200 hours without pay per year even while taking a vacation
that is more then one months labour unpaid. even though he thinks he is getting paid more then minimum wage. he is getting less than minimum wage

..
people on minimum wage no matter the country, no matter the denomination or amount of currency. need to realise how much these early starts, late ends and unpaid breaks that are restricted soon add up
and how much lost income it equates to.

then not imagine it as a insignificant 15mins here 15 mins there, not worth arguing over.. but instead realise its 200 hours the boss has taken from you per year

I'm not saying it's okay. Matter of fact I detest it, but can we do something about it? There's a fine line between normalizing stupid shit and actually succumbing to the powerlessness of the situation, I fell right into the powerless end of the spectrum and now people think I'm being a pedantic asshole cause "I don't do shit against the system". I hate it as much as the next guy, but I'm not so hopeful that I could change it you know what I'm saying?

In our country it's a dog eats dog world, only real solution I could provide is upskill and earn your badges, but even that would take a whole lot of effort.

I've understood what you're expressing.

I'm going further down the road saying if ppl aren't coping today when they're struggling to put food on the table & pay their bills it isn't going to be a pretty picture tomorrow when they're retired and not getting an income except their pension. Who's going to help them when they're old or can't work well. Planning today means they'll have a better chance to live tomorrow.

Employers are making problems but they're the solutions remember that. You've said ppl live on less $5 a day I've seen it where it's $5 or less a month so we know life isn't fair. The balance isn't equal when comparing typical incomes from residents in MENA to Europe or America because they've got more dispoable income & can handle expenses for living. Tax policies don't make poor ppl rich so that's another problem when the system's set to fail the poor.

What alternative do workers have, though? People need to work in order to earn money for a living. If they deny working for such rates, they will end not having anything in the end of the day. He doesn't need to work his whole life for 8$-9$ hourly, but just until something better appears on the radar. And it's through that low paying job that better opportunities will appear futurely, as this little money can proportionate him to progress on his educational life. The important is to not stay idle on something which isn't being rewarding, and to always seek for improving professionaly, until you find what really fulfills you.

i never said anything about any retirement nor bitcoin nor investing

this topic is about peoples moral/labour worth at the time of getting income..

yes people need to plan for the future to secure themselves.. but if thy are being abused at even the most basic income at the start. then they cant build from that abuse to even be able to consider securing themselves later

this is where topics then begin about not even being able to afford $£5 a day (30minutes extra pay) to DCA because they live paycheque to paycheque where all of their income is gone before the month even ends..

securing your income fairly.. even at the bottom pay limit to ensure you are getting paid for even the most basic demands of the business. is a starting point.. too many people think they should "put-up and shut up" and do nothing because they feel even a min wage job that keeps them poor is a benefit. they try too hard to justify being grateful for remaining poor and being used..
but if they cannot even survive on that income and are not even ever going to have anything spare to go towards their future.. they are not helping themselves now or in the future

(so lets talk about future)
imagine putting just that 30min extra time £$5 each day. 5 days a week 4 weeks a month (£$100) into bitcoin.
lets go with starting week of end of october 2019 -october 2020.. just one year DCA
average btc price that year £$9500
so £$100 a month = 0.01052632, over a year thats 0.12631584
they do nothing. then when 2021 ATH, they dont cash out at exact peak. but at a rational $60k/btc
they take out £$7578.95
so DCA for a year. then leave it alone for a further 9 months. that $£1,200 turns into £$7.5k
and thats just using the 30minute extra no one cares to quantify each day...

now imagine in 2022 taking that £$7.5k and re investing at £$20k/btc
at todays £$34k/btc. that $£7.5k is actually £$12.8k

if people can consider how that neglected £$5 a day of 30minutes time they ignore asking for.. they should realise how much they are harming their future by not getting full benefit of their time..


..
ok another way to think of it..(the topic)
businesses get away with it because employees dont see it. dont want to think about it or dont think its worth the debate asking for it.
imagine this. for the 48 weeks of being present at work. thats £$ a day for 48 weeks is over a year of labour.. $£1200..
now imagine you work each day and got paid every minute of the time you devote to the business.. and at the end of the year. your boss came up to you and told you that he wants you to hand him £$1200 in one lump sum right away no questions asked
would you be so lax in debating. or would you question how he can make such a demand of you

your boss wants to steal £$1200 from you per year.. which if you worked for him 2019-2020 could actually be a future theft of $£12k he has made you unable to have accumulated

is it now worth your time to consider asking to be paid fairly

This isn't another presentation to tell ppl they've got to buy Bitcoin for their retirements. Working the old way isn't going the benefit we've got to think ahead for when we're older because we can't rely on other to help.

It's like he's saying after you've included meal breaks & looked at how you're being taxed the maths changes so you're ending up not getting paid you've thought. I'm going back to the same advice you've got to invest in cryptos so it's able to help in your retirement or else you'll be living with regret when you don't have enough money to cope.

my mindset is. if someone is paid the most bottom level of pay. the employer should be apreciative of people willing to work at that low amount
EG if they are only paid 9am-6pm. the employer knowing the employee cant always be punctual or if the business needs them to start early to be briefed on days duties before customers enter. that employee should still pay the guy that extra.
(im not even going to get started on the sick-pay allowance of X days off paid, but if someone is never sick deserves to get paid a bonus)

im just saying if someone is being paid the least amount legally. they should be fairly paid for each minute they are adding benefit to the business


that said
i understand greed of capitalism that my ideals are a pipedream, businesses would always undercut their costs and not care about their staff.

i know some people think the minimum wage causes a company to think people should only be paid a low amount. where they think/dream/hope people would get paid more if this limit did not exist..

however this is not the case. before minimum wage there was MORE POVERTY, no one was paid their "worth"... companies run slave trade and employed immigrants way under the national poverty line.

the problem is not that minimum wage exists causing companies to then pay people at that amount..
the problem is that the minimum wage is too low and companies STILL underpay employees by scheming their labour time by miscounting and ignoring how much time an employee puts into the business.. EG demanded to turn up at 8:45 but only allowed to 'clock in' at 9:00
EG saying there is a no overtime policy but still demanding people volunteer to stay on after hours to achieve a business goal else risk a bad performance review or other punishment if people dont volunteer


what needs to be the solution is not to just remove the limit and dream/hope/wish businesses then pay fair worth for the employees availability
but instead fix the rules of minimum wage where if a business is going to pay that amount. then it better ensure the employee gets full pay for full time they devote to the business

Livable wage? By what standards?

We should have a different minimum age for people who live in London, for those living in Manchester for those in Dunny-on-the-Wold?
Or we should have a different livable wage for women and men since there are a ton of things women need that men don't?
And different wages for those having a kid and those not having one?

The minimum wage should not exist in the first place, it's just stupid!
Germany went 50 years without a minimum wage, they set one and nothing changed Denmark, and Finland also don't have a minimum wage while Congo has one, which one do you think it's better to work in? The minimum age is just like printing money, it sets a standard to what people can at minimum consume, triggering inflation for those products as they know everyone will still afford it, rising rent rising everything, just drop the damn thing and get paid without being stamped like a cowherd, get paid for what you're worth. Nobody afford to pay you that much more, so maybe the minimum wage is actually destroying jobs and causing more unemployment and poorer people!

Anyhow this whole topic has started because of another stupid metric, pay per hour!
How about we stop with the f* thing and stick like every normal country to a standard wage per month with extra hours being paid , extra!
So you have this jobs that you know it takes you 50-70-160-6000 hours and you get paid x!


Phil, first world problems! 
You live in a house, not 30sqm apartment, you have a car for which you pay 5000 a year!
Average house in US is 200sqm, in India is 40sqm! Divide every room of yours by 5! 
By Central European standards, the average car is about 12 years, average! For 10k so two years of your lease, you can get a BMW or VW 2 years under this average, and this is Europe, not India!

Fuel 250 a month!
So, 250 liters for nonfreedom units, gas in $0.7 per liter in Nigeria, so one would need $175 to buy the same amount of gas you do, that alone is above the minimum wage!

I agree with what you say and you are quite right but in today's business life, these are situations that should be considered normal. Most of the people work accepting these situations. Opening and closing times are very difficult to be punctual and there is no point in taking them into account if the time needed to prepare for work or to finish work is short. If you love your job you can put up with it.
You also talk about slavery at the moment but many of today's working conditions are mediocre and there are millions of people in the UK who would give anything to work. Even for low wages. Of course, it is the right of every human being to work at a humane standard of living, but unfortunately this is not the case in the world. Millions of people are working in very harsh conditions and most of those people dream of working in developed countries like the UK at any cost. So I think 15 minutes is not important.

look at for instance walmart. as a different scenario of businesses getting away with things
they make profits, o they can afford it.. but. their employees already on minimum wage are not paid for the time they spend at the workplace nor able to negotiate proper full time roles.
by walmart only offering part time roles of say 16 hours(4 days of 4 hours for instance) but if you add up the 15min start 15 min end unpaid is actually 18 hours of time not at home.. those employees labour of 18 hours paid only 16 hours. then are further subsidised by government social security to hand out 'foodstamps' and 'housing vouchers' to ensure people can survive.. simply because walmart wont give them a 40 hour shift of actual only 40 hours of labour. because it then means walmart has to pay out 'contributions' for pensions

If only wages in my country were that big. I understand it all depends on the cost of living in each country. And there maybe that amount of money is not that big, but here it is very big. In developing countries things are even worse. Many workers are even forced to continue working even though they are only paid wages that are even less than the minimum wage in this country. Due to economic factors and the factor of too many workers being disproportionate to the number of jobs. We have no choice. So we have to work outside working hours to get additional income. Somehow I seem to feel there is a big difference here. Maybe people who are in the same country as me will understand this. Sorry if it's a little out of line.

For starters - I have about 20 years of development under my belt. Worked for an employer, worked directly for a customer, ..... so I know what I'm writing about.)
I'm honestly not sure, or rather I'm completely sure that this approach can generate only the so-called "Indian code", when western companies paid hired programmers from India, and the cost of work was estimated by ... number of lines of code. As a result, for example, a loop of 10 iterations was realized by 10 IF queries with a counter check 
In a word, this is a very low-quality code. Even if it is not so, such pressure in the workflow will not allow you to think qualitatively, think through the solution and implement it with high-quality code. Can't your friend, being a good programmer, find a job with normal conditions?

Why do you have to complicate things and speaking about certain things, minimum wages should be a livable wage, that's the end of story for that, anything other than is just a reason to not raise the wages. And don't talk to me about companies not able to afford that because you can look at the their annual profits and see that they're profiting more than they should be, I think that it's time that workers start organizing and demand what they deserve from the businesses and corporations that are paying them dirt cheap, it's not enough that workers complain at the government, it's time we look at what's stopping the increase in wages which are the big businesses and corporations.

This is true. Living in a third world country is really different, and if we try to compare the minimum wage of the advanced countries to the developing countries, we can really observe a huge gap between the two. And what's more saddening about this is that the salary of a minimum wage earner is not enough to sustain their life and their families because of the good and services are also high because of the inflation. Even people who have finished their college and acquired their degrees, who are considered to be professionals are still earning a meager salary. Not only that, but there are also less opportunities for people living in the third world country. Also, what's more frustrating about this is that companies and businesses are setting a high standard when choosing an employee. High standards, an immense amount of work, and a meager salary. This is something that all workers and labors in third world countries are facing. And I think that there should be laws about this matter to protect our workers, and so that they were able to get salary which is equivalent to the work that they do.

Welcome to reality, as long as the same people remain in the status of policy-making we can't expect anything different from the current situation. As I said we can demand and raise our voices but I don't think governments will be interested in any of their people's opinion over the rich members who is behind the economies.

It doesn't mean I am supporting this but all I am saying this is the reality and we can't do much about it.

This is why there isn't really a "per hour" mindset in Turkey. We have monthly minimum wage, and a legal weekly work hour mandate. Not that its not broken, its 40 hours a week, meaning 5 times a week you go to work for 8 hours a day, that's the normal law but obviously just like anywhere else in the world, most bosses wants you to stay longer. However, it allows you to know how much you make per month beforehand, and not per hour system. This allows you to put all the time you consider travel to work as your job description as well, calculate the monthly that way and not hourly, which makes it a little bit easier for everyone involved with the work and seems to be working fine for all of us.

It is a crime of state policy that many people have to work due to financial difficulties and that working conditions in workplaces are not good. If the state were working to protect its people, no employer could deprive its employees of their rights.

Employers are generally protected by states because they create employment. There is a common belief that it is better for a person to be paid less than not to work. I do not agree with this opinion.

Modern slavery is becoming more common day by day and no precautions are taken against it.

Demand for work force is low whereas the availability of workers is high which forces workers to comply with the unfair terms of their employer or they can sit back at their homes with no pay at all. Government policies also favor the employers of most nations because they are the one who is behind the economies of every country and very few countries respect both parties and have decent policies.

Apart from that, we can't demand anything from the upper class and this is the era of modern-day slavery.

The points you give are very correct here, it cannot be denied that in jobs that we don't like, there will always be someone who replaces us to do it, yes, that's very natural, so don't ever complain about whatever job you are currently doing.  Since we started school, we have been prepared to choose whatever we want, therefore when we grow up, we must be able to choose a job that is suitable for us, we can't do anything after we grow up and can only regret all the decisions we have made at the beginning.

We know that each country does have their own different living standards or lets say that economic value in regarding on the fiat that they are using.It is really just that normal that there would really be some huge differences when it comes to conversion.If we do really tend to reflect out on how much to those people who are working with those basic jobs and their per hour rates and comparing it into those who do have minimum fix salary on 3rd world countries then it would really be having that kind of significant differences and its true that if earning 10 euro per hour then i would really be also living like a king here in our place but
we are really just that earning the lesser amount on which it is really that in fact the reality.

Economic situations does really vary on each places, the way of living, the cost or expense on whatever surrounds you. Its never been that simple for everyone which it might be looking good in numbers
but the way of living on a certain place would really be costly if you do tend to make up some comparison on which means that it would really be just entirely be the same situation
in between those people who do have their day job. They do differ in rates but the same situation which we are really that struggling on day to day living.
Therefore, finding alternatives will really be just that our solution on things.

My friend worked for a software company and they had no scheduled breaks at all.

There was a card reader at the door of the floor he worked on and the only thing there was on that floor was the bathroom and a smoking room. If you wanted to take lunch break or go outside, even to the parking lot to take something from the car, you had to use the card and they'd count how long you were outside of your working area and that time would be subtracted from your paycheck, unless you stayed after hours.

It was a common thing for people working there to take a break and then stay an hour longer.

To be fair that depends on where you live, because 10 euro per hour in my nation would be insane income, I am doing something similar give or take and I am quite happy about the result, it is really great. However, if you work 10 hours a day, at 10 euro an hour, that would be 100, and that would be 3000 euro and that is MUCH more than what I make and that would be like living like kings in my nation.

However, I understand the logic, there are people working for nearly 10-15 dollars a whole day here, and even in that situation yes you are right that when you calculate all the spending we have towards the work, it doesn't really end up with anything profitable for you, you end up working for a lot less than what you are told.

Unfortunately, this kind of oppressive setup is rampant where I'm from. And rather than complaining and be furious about it, workers have grown accustomed to it. That's, after all, the setup everywhere. And so it has become common and acceptable.

As a matter of fact, what OP has shared is a toned down version of the, shall we say, inhumane situation here. A store, for example, pays below the minimum wage. A worker, say, a cashier, will have to be there at least 30 minutes to an hour earlier. The store closes at 5 in the afternoon, but the worker will spend another hour or two doing all kinds of works in the store.

Add to this the severe traffic congestion in many cities here as well as the poor public transportation. Everything considered, the worker will have to wake up as early as 4 in the morning and could go home as late as 12 midnight.

And this is openly allowed by our inutile government.

Complaining about the minimum wage we get from the work we do will not make the income we get increase by itself, we need to make efforts on our part to develop our existing potential, it would be better because by having some skills and knowledge, of course we can find work according to our needs. the abilities we have and also with more income.

Those who get the minimum wage for the work they do, I think, is work that can be easily done by most people, so if they don't accept the wage offered, the person giving the job will look for someone else who is willing to work for the wage they offer.

very well-said. if you don't like to be controlled by this kind of situation, improve yourself, knowledge, skills or whatever is needed to get out of your current situation. it is on your hands how you will change your path.
but if you will just complain and do nothing about it, you won't go anywhere.

I'll ask a simple question - who forced this man to take this job?
I will answer it myself, but it will be interesting to hear alternative opinions.
1. The person has limited abilities, and he can only do this job, and he is forced to agree to the conditions.
2. A person does not want to look for a more difficult job, to work hard, to learn something new, and he is satisfied with this arrangement.
3. The situation in his neighborhood/city/region/country is like this - the crisis and there is no other work, even for a highly qualified specialist.
Conclusions:
1. these are his problems
2. these are his problems
3. change the situation - neighborhood, city, region, or even country

Your opinion ?

This is the reality for many people, it is what it is. I guess if you don’t like it then change career or go back to school. Take control of what you can control, there is no point moaning about something & then doing nothing about it. There will always be somebody to do those type of jobs so if you don’t like it, get up off your ass & better yourself.

Well thats something that do talks about reality and we know that there's really that thing that we called "Balance" on which if there's Rich people then there are poor ones. Even if you do live on a rich country but if you are still having no job or not really that earning that much then you would really be still considering to be poor. It doesnt always reflect out totally that if you do live into those rich countries then you are also rich as a citizen, you would really be still needing to make your ass do all the hard work on making yourself or life to be that progressive and not something that would really be talking about just stagnant and completely making no acions.

You wont really be that making yourself that progressive if you would really be just contented on what you do have.Its true that economical factors and other things could really affect out the overall struggles and
challenges that you might encounter along the way. Its never been simply as an average minimum wage earner, if you dont work then there's no pay and if there's no pay
then surviving would really be questionable and this is indeed the reality.

I do agree that it's not going to be something that would benefit you on the long run we shouldn't really consider that as "optional" when it comes to third world  nations. As someone who lives in not so rich nation, I could say that it's not even lack of jobs, it's about the average salary of a person in that nation, even doctors do not make as much as high school kids in the USA, and that's the difference and that's causing the biggest trouble.

I get that it may not cause that much trouble for the time being because they live according to the costs of that nation as well, but that's a different aspect, you live good compared to your fellow citizens, but you are not living that good compared to other people in other nations, richer nations.

i agree its very common for businesses to do this. if it was not there would be no need for unions, strikes or protests..

however the point is the lowest paid people think they are winning, getting a bonus, benefits from accepting such conditions. so much so they artificually inflate the value to make it seem like they are getting a good deal. when in reality, the maths shows they are treated as slaves

luckily i have not needed to work for many years thanks to bitcoin. but when i hear stories of the lowest paid people hyping up their position, they need a reality check and realise they should demand more from their employer, just to get the legal minimum

Oh, my! This is a classic example right? Businesses always find methods to extract every ounce of productivity from their employees without paying them appropriately. It's not right, not right at all! Your friend's circumstance shows how the system may exploit the weak

Break it down. Math is clear. He should be paid for 8:45–6:15 work hours. The end. Those breaks... if he can't leave, are they really breaks? More like a pause. And a pause isn't the same as free time

And then: fuel, washing, lunch - it adds up. It's his money, not the company's. Like taking a chunk of his money without him knowing. Sneaky, very sneaky

People, if you're giving a firm your time, be sure they're compensating you. The hours you spend tere, not just on paper. Only fair. If they won't, find a place that will. Remember that your time is valuable and deserves compensation

Yep, at least you can survive in first world or you can buy live paycheck to paycheck if you're someone who like to spend your money.

While in third world your choice is only to survive and sometime it's not enough even you've a full time job. There are lack of good job and even more entry job is really hard to get because there are a lot unemployment. If a poor people didn't want to be a slave, how can they survive if they don't have a good capital to start a business? they also don't have a good device or PC, how they can become a freelancer?

Are you always stand up when people treat you unfair?

yes to all points
supermarkets that interview employees are the local instore supervisor(untrained in HR).. so trying to make salary demands at the interview stage falls flat against a supervisor who does not have any discretionary control over salary adjustments. they are there just to evaluate the applicant and get them to sign a template strict contract they printed from HR. a standard contract with set details the supervisor cannot touch or alter

usually if a supervisor has 20 applicants and a interviewee  is questioning even the 15 min start and end addon of time unpaid. the supervisor will just not get the interviewee to sign a contract and instead give the opportunity to someone that doesnt question the math

you would be surprised how little discretion/decision making ability a local instore manager/supervisor has over their employees/applicants.

its for the HR department of the HQ of the company that can handle salary discrepancies. and usually with any industry, its a headache to negotiate a pay rise or adjust an employee contract(customise it) compared to the standard template that all employees are locked into

usually it ends up with employees having to form a group action such as a strike or a union to push the HR to adjust all contracts. for the HR to even consider changing their template.

the problem is that there needs to be a legal push to the HQ to meet its legal obligations of labour time

My assumption is that the person you are talking about works in a supermarket or something similar that serves the needs of the people around them. It is worth exploring what the agreement was with the supermarket owner when he first accepted the job. If he feels that the salary he receives is too small or below the minimum salary applied in the area where he works, he can submit a request for a salary increase. He can also leave the job if he feels he is not being treated well, in terms of working more hours than usual and never being paid for overtime.
The decision is in his hands, choose to continue working there or look for work elsewhere.

Agreed on the high cost of fundamental living expenses, probably most pronounced in the USA, where taxation and some laws are also very problematic and can immediately get one in trouble... It puts pressure on people to work very hard and with impeccable consistency, as it can all fall apart and one might find himself on the streets even if he slacks off just a little...


Philippines might not be the best example from a third world perspective as it's a pretty corrupt dictatorship, and most imported goods are very heavily taxed to make it prohibitive for the local population (or at least that was my experience when I was working briefly around Cebu there) ...

In more libertarian places, digital nomads have been really arbitraging the higher wages of the developed countries by doing remote work, and enjoying a luxury lifestyle at a far cheaper price tag, like Thailand, Portugal, parts of Eastern Europe and similar...

Well, this could easily prevent employers from abusing such power, however, a lot of people are still looking to fill that job due to the tight career competition in the professional industry and most of these people doesn't have a degree in the first place so that leaves them with a little to no option at all. The inflation rate also adds to the burden.
This is a true story though and it happens most of the time in the restaurants. I have never worked in a restaurants before but a lot of my friends does. Theirs' were even worse because they should be at least 45 mins to 1 hr early to prepare things out from small peptalk to cleaning the kitchen and dining area. Though there are 2 shifts, but both shifts were actually doing 10 hrs minimum being in the work place the whole time and were receiving of 8 hrs as well, no overtimes. There were a free launch, but it's for limited amount only, anything in excess will be an automatic deduction to the payroll.
They are used to it already so it feels normal for them, It's not against the labor code as well but I know there could be something to be done with it to fix the kind of system. The reality here is that a lot of employees are actually underpaid, but only a few have dared to fix this system up, because everyone thinks it's normal.

Yes, sometimes there are situations that cannot be controlled, requiring us to work for whatever we are paid as long as we can continue living, so a person's idealism cannot always be used and it must be in its proper place.
Realistically, we want whatever work we do to be worth it for the pay we receive, but I have been in a bad situation where I had to do whatever it took to continue living, so I know how it feels.
Maybe one way we have to go is to get up slowly and look for a place where we can find what we want.

Okay I make pretty good money, but it is all relative.  Where I live you can not walk to stores and carry the food home. So you have to have an e-bike with a cart or like most of us a car.

I have a car not two. I leased it as the one I owned was wrecked in summer of 2021.

My lease is 420 a month my fuel is 250 a month my car insurance is 200 a month. So the car alone costs 870 x 12 = 10400 a year.

Just the car . Next house insurance 1600 a year. next property tax 8700 a year.
then gas for stove and furnace 3000 a year.

and electric 8000 a year. So I am at 31700.

Phones and internet 3300 now I am at 35000.  

Sewer and water is 2000 so 37000 for a house and a car yearly cost.

No clothes or food.

If I go super cheap on food and clothes 12000 so now I am at 49000 a year.

Health insurance is 3000 so 52000 a year. That is with no vacations and very little restaurants.

So yea you can say first world issues. The biggest first world issue it things are costly.

Never mind if you want to eat healthy.

Third world is different a lot of it is fuck you starve stay poor no opportunities.
I lived in Philippines when I was in the US Navy so I saw lots of hard difficulty poor people have.

They had poor options and little money or ability to get good quality  items

It is true that not all countries around the world have the same minimum wage for each applicant. Just like here in our country, the minimum wage for an ordinary employee is too low. Then, with the number of applicants who are looking for a job, even degree holders who have completed it are still trying to apply even if their income is below the minimum wage.

As long as the pursuit and what is important to them is that they have a job and they will be paid every 2 weeks and at the end of the month, that's the mindset of others. Others who are capable of applying abroad are made to work outside their country because the minimum wage is higher.

Min wage is an entry point job like when your in high school. It's not intended to support a lifestyle.

So get better skills and a better job. Learn how to weld, plumber, electrician and such those guys make BANK.

Nobody is swindling you, you are swindeling you expecting something for menial task. Get a skill.

I get it too. People everywhere in the world face this challenge of balancing job security and personal freedom. We all want stable employment but once we accept the contract from an employer, we have to comply with their rules, given that those do not compromise the rights of the employees. This is the first time tht Ive heard a five year commitment, usually in our country, it only takes 6 months to one year that you cannot leave the job upoj employment or else you will have to pay the company back. But yeah that’s it. Who wouldn't want a better life? The West might seem appealing but I guess youre right that it has its flaws too, still, it is a good country to live in.

I honestly didn't quite get the gist of the problem
The man made a choice, tried to prove to himself that it is so profitable for him.... So what ? Where is the problem ? Who cheated him ?  

By the way, the example of personnel "tied" to man-hours of presence at the workplace, this is one part of the labor market. There are a lot of specialties where the logic of the hourly rate loses its meaning. No, I understand that Europe has long adopted a scheme with payment based on the rate per hour. This scheme is really well suited to jobs where the workflow is exactly like that. For example, store clerk, construction worker, etc.
But there are a lot of other approaches, especially in times when a lot of people work remotely, or are hired for a project, or generally as outstaff. Here the model with an hourly wage is not very effective.
I can show by the example of my employees how we work - IT specialists, system administrators, developers for specific customers for the development of their systems. The scheme is extremely simple - a fixed amount of remuneration per month, plus profile KPIs. I don't care how much time a system administrator/programmer/... sits in the office, or rather I don't even want him to sit in the office Why not ? Because working from home with quality control and or/deadlines is more efficient:
- I, as an employer, do not incur additional costs for the maintenance and upkeep of workplaces
- the employee saves about 2 hours every day for traveling/ saves money for logistics/lunch/....
- working from home where you can manage your time is a great additional motivation for employees. I do not care whether he did the work from 9 to 18, or from 13 to 23 hours. I am interested in time and quality. And the employee is motivated to provide it (in time with a given quality), because he is comfortable working conditions, and he does not want to lose his job and go to "sit for 9 hours in the office".
And most importantly, I am a supporter of the concept - work should be evaluated by the result and not by the fatigue of the performer

This is very common in our country but this does not mean that this should be treated as if it is okay. People dont just have much options. Its like theyre caught in this endless loop of trying to find the best way to survive and they were stuck in these jobs that barely pay enough. No one legally complains because people got bills to pay and families to take care of. So they go job hunting, hoping for something better, but it's not like there are fantastic options out there waiting for them.

People like us who are privileged enough to even have the resources in this forum are fortunate but not everyone gets the resources. So youre right, we are constantly trying to find a way to escape the struggle, but the system just keeps throwing obstacles in our path. Everyone has to keep going so kudos to us for even trying!


I am certain that being silent or not having an opinion is worse. Bad things shouldnt be treated as normal.

You have a good point OP. But it won't be easy in all parts of the world, especially in this time of crisis where employment is not even easy to find in many parts of the world. In my country, private companies are even starting to put into contract the minimum number of years the employee should work otherwise there will be penalties.

It's one of the reasons why I left my first job because I got a promotion but I need to sign a 5-year minimum service where I cannot dictate the location. There were also job offers that I declined even if some of them were higher because I prefer to work on my own time and place.

It is funny some people always criticize the West yet they also hope to live in the West and get a job in order to have a better life. it's not perfect but way better than most countries.

That's the discussion that most of the employees have about how their employers are also invading their privacy and even their personal lives. You work based on the agreement and if it's outside the working hours, I agree that it should be paid as well but I'll choose not to get paid and I'll just ignore any inquiry that's beyond my working hours. That's better, looking for a work-life balance type of job is harder these days when most of the companies want to buy your life and family time with the minimum wage they pay you. Well, here in the Philippines minimum wage is much lower than the given on the OP since we're still a developing country but the situation is just the same on how these companies exploits employees.

First and foremost, the employer doesn't pay for your TIME. He pays for your PRODUCTIVITY in that certain time frame.
Your life isn't worth 10 USD an hour. Your SKILLS are worth 10 USD on hour, or 20, or 30, or 50 USD an hour. It depends of how valued your skills are at the labor market.
Second, I agree that the employer must cover the transport costs of the employee for going from home to the job place.
Third, the problem is that many employers don't pay extra for working additional hours. Sometimes the employee works 10 hours for a day and the employer pays for 8 hours. This is where the syndicates and the government must step in and force the employers to pay for the full work, that is being done by the employees.

@OP you're correct, but do you think your opinion can change the system?

Most of employees are hopeless and they're not dare to report the businesss to the authority, since most of the businesses like that, it's already become a new normal. Reporting one business means you're going to fight with every businesses and it's nothing new for people willing to destroy someone if they give a threat for their business.

dont get hooked up on the number specifics of the first post.. put it in your own prospective
you admit your minimum wage is $2...

well imagine your contracted for 8 hours a day ($16 a day income in contract)... but physically you are away from home doing things within a business policy, where they stipulate that you have to be at the place of work by 8:45 and cannot leave until 6:15  (9.5 hours of business needs)
where the business policy/schedule does not allow you to do your own personal time chores/lifestyle for those 9.5 hours a day. meaning you are suppose to get more the $16 a day because its not actually 8 hours but 9.5 hours thus should be $19 for your time taken away from your home life

try and read it again
i put both £$ in to articulate that the currency is not important. the scenario can apply if you are US or UK.. the actual £$# amount is not important nor needs to be exact as its just a rounded number for people to easily calculated..
the concept and context of the message was not the monetary numbers. it was the example of if # is the contract rate, but the other person thinks he is getting # * 1.083 due to vacations.. but then realises due to time spent within the business and not leisurely at home he is actually getting # * 0.82 it shows how even on the minimum people should get, they are not even getting that for their time.

the minimum wage is not a great thing when the legal amounts even by government standard are below poverty line amounts. the 'living wage' is a more higher rate that basic/unskilled work should begin at. but also people should be paid for the time taken out of their life to make a business money

when i see people THINK they are in a job offering great rewards, where they dont realise those "rewards" are the basic legal requirements. its not really rewarding, its suckers pay.. and when those same people then dont even get paid the full amount of suckers pay for their time at that basic poverty rate. its a double faceslap to them.

i do find it amusing how even people scammed out of a fair pay of even poverty amount still think its a bonus, reward that should dont be questioned. when people are doing hard work for poverty amounts and not even getting fair pay for their time. its not the business doing the employee a favour where the employee should be happy. its the business swindling its employees for the businesses benefit

Getting $8/hours is already 4 times of minimum wage in here but set aside the currency conversion, from where I live, getting minimum wage meaning we could afford enough good meals and once a week entertainment, so $2 minimum wage in here is not that bad because the the cost of living is not that high either. But in here, for a permanent employee (non-freelance) most company also give allowance like for fuel, internet, and once a day meal, and other stuff. So the the salary we received is a net salary. But the extra hours for pre and post work hour briefing is the same, we need to give extra hour to the employers.

Some might say that the details in the OP are pedantic. But honestly every little excuse just helps corporate interests.
If someone needs to work to survive then they're working class and there's no reason to adopt excuses that corporate interests make up.

Worker's rights are a very serious matter and we should be doing more to defend them collectively. In my country there are crazy labor rights violations everywhere.
For instance the law says that above 8hrs a worker should be paid overtime. But employers in Greece just EXPECT you to do 10 to 12 hour shifts in the tourist season as an employee without any extra money... And the law is ofc never enforced. In fact, our neoliberal government last year even fired the independent authority responsible for labor rights violations. If you're a worker, please organize. Don't let your country's working rights slip away like we did.

Are you talking about pounds or dollars, are you seem to keep mixing the currency signs up. Your calculation also ignores, rather foolishly I might add, that the person is getting PAID holiday - it's not four weeks off without pay like the conclusion you have ended up at. The laws around break times are partly defined to protect workers from being forced to work 8 hours straight and give them a break, although many businesses also add an extra half an hour to their benefit. Then you start coming up with hypotheticals about how much people are spending on different activities including cooking and laundry, which can be completely off track as people budget and shop differently. The minimum wage is a great thing to have, as the alternative would be even LESS money in peoples pocket if businesses forced employees to accept any wage. It's not meant to be the perfect solution and the top paying job, it is entry level wages which can just about sustain people in most parts of the UK - which you can tell is where you're really aiming this due to the amount of holiday and the pay rates. All round very poor arguments from your side.

You might be not fully right because, in this scenario, the the store owner will be the one making more money. And the employees are the ones who have to sacrifice more, they have to bear more, even if they have more burden of work on themselves. Sacrifice is mutual but not equal, good employers make mutual and equal sacrifices while bad ones don't.

We should avoid bad employers and should take action against them too, but for an ordinary person, that's not even an option, because they are not aware of their rights, they should know how to talk to them and how to make them agree on their requirements or specific salary. But you are right that, both employer and employee have to spend the amount that OP has mentioned, on their daily life expenses and they both have to use that money from the earnings they both are making.

That's so accurate, but in my thought, they should now be happy, and they are not happy, they just don't have any option to ignore a job, even if it is paying less. In our country, many youngsters are leaving the country to earn $500 a month which they cannot earn in this country and of course they have no other choice but to leave the country.

no tips
and no .. tips should not substitute minimum wage. tips are suppose to be a gratuity ontop of wages.. i understand some countries have a different minimum wage for cafe waitresses, but again if a business cannot support its longevity by even paying the minimum/living wage. it should not be operating

This a good and productive topic, but what about tips and bonuses, are there any, I mean if your friend is being rewarded with tips or bonuses then after recalculating the earnings, we might reach to $10 per hour or maybe exceed it. Overall, I used to have this thought back in the previous month of September, I am a tuition teacher, and I got another batch of students to teach outside of the city and my expenses to go there were around 2k pkr (in local currency).

They were paying me around 14k pkr and after deducting the fuel and other expenses, I left with around 11k Pkr. Which was also enough for the 2-hour job of teaching 4 students only. But still, I was getting less paid in comparison to the market, the rates should be around 20k pkr but the middleman who found me that job fixed the deal at 14k pkr. Well, I left it, as I can do more productive work in those 2 hours so I think I should leave it.

Well, if your friend thinks, he is still getting paid less and he can not meet his expenses then he should ask for an increment but to do that, he should have a good approach to his boss.

That 1.5 hours is like an employee doing the extra mile to make sure the business still runs after a month and if not, boath the employee and the employer will capsize. Consider it a mutual sacrifice for the employer so that they are both going to make it.

People today are just happy to have a job than evicted from their apartment because of the overdue. They are not going to mind that extra hour and half this time. Unless it means losing a meal if it's not paid.

I agree with the op's reasoning, but I'd also add the time of going to work and going home to the big picture. After all, a person must waste that time on the road, and it's done precisely for the purpose of working there.
It's also interesting to me that you count the wage pre-tax. I guess it's because the taxation differs in many countries based on circumstances. In my country the wage is always discussed post-tax because the employer collects the tax on behalf of the employees, and the taxes are not flexible, so it's usually the same rate for everyone.
That being said, £10 or even the adjusted £8.2 per hour is considered a very decent payment per hour in my country, well above the minimum wage of around £1 per hour post-tax. So yeah, I do believe that should be accounted for as well. And, needless to say, everything is not 10 times less expensive here. The difference overall is around 2.5 times.

Imagine someone not getting paid after all his works and it is not based on hourly rate instead it's a fixed amount that you get every month. £$20.8k? Imagine a guy from a Third World country getting this job. It will be life-changing for him. But I don't think the comparison should be logical. You are getting paid higher also you are paying higher for everything. On the other hand, in a Third World country you are getting paid less but you are also paying less compared to first world country.
If I get paid $200 a month I would hesitate to pay $50 for bills. But in a country where I am getting paid thousands of dollars $100 bill won't matter that much. So the problem varies from country to country and their economic situation.

Coming to the main point of the OP. If he is okay with what he is getting and living a decent life then that 1.5 hour won't matter that much. He's happy with his life, so why make it complicated? If you start to think that every hour of your life counts, or it is valuable and you should get paid for that, then that's not right. Be happy with what you are getting right now. You may not have it in the future.

With the rate of how inflation had affected so many part of the economy, we cannot concluded that minimum wages is the best offer to help lives dependencies on the economy considering those that are not self employed, it has been an hacculian task for one to earn enough through the effect of inflation when the minimum wage on each job offered is not increasing, some are not even paying the required minimum wage on their employees right before the inflation got to this far, employees are the ones suffering the cause while business owners aren't doing anything about it.

This here is not a personal break it's just a break for the individual to benefit from but rather the company benefits from this because the person takes time away to rest and get more energy and nothing else just to come back to work. It's more like when you let your working machines cool off after consistently using it for long hours .

I think at the end of the day and as years goes by the employee would see that he or she has been played in life because you wasted long time working for someone without really finding a way to work for yourself, it's a slave mentality.

It's not about the "rules" or whatever really. it's whatever bs these businesses and companies are putting up under the guise of "workplace rules" just to one up on the average employee. They're always doing this since the industrial revolution and just because everyone's abiding by it doesn't make it any less inhumane. The point of the discussion is how smart these businesses are at hiding their immoral practices against employees, the fact that you're asking for the specifics of OP's friend's contractual agreement is already a good sign that you're pretty much down with this situation cause "it's what the contract says lol so you can't argue about it anymore". It's a little sad that you're thinking that way really.

20800$ in a year's income is a big income here in our country because the regular or ordinary employee here who works in the company usually earns only 2500$–3000$ in a year. Now, if you are a supervisor or manager, it ranges around $5,000–$7,000 a year.

This is the situation here in our country, so it means you can be considered a rich person with that kind of income every year, or, let's say, a middle-class type person in this world.

I am very curious about the facts you just told me, many assumptions and speculations have arisen after reading everything you wrote in Op.
He (the person you mean) works there based on a personal agreement or with an employment contract attached.?
If he works based on a collective agreement without a written agreement in the employment contract which is supported by labor law, he cannot dispute working hours that exceed the limit because he must follow the rules set at his workplace.

There will always be pros and cons to the minimum wage that employees receive. If an employee feels he is being treated as a cash cow at his workplace, he can immediately resign from that place. Logically, before a work agreement is entered into, the wages that the employee will receive are always discussed. If he feels that his wages are insufficient or below standard, he can immediately refuse to work there.

Too many variables: you need to make sure the court/authority in your country are objective, you need to spend money or time to report it and you need to make sure if your country have a law about that.

If the contract is paid per hour, you have a chance to win. But if the contract is paid per day, that's quite hard.

You can't expect every business have a good moral and at the same time hoping people to quit a job that pay lows because as a business will try to make money as much as possible and as a worker, he need to feed himself including his family.

This is common business practice, people already know how much they are getting fucked over by companies and all that shit, it's all a matter of choosing which master feeds you well and ties you on a longer leash, for the most part, since most of us here are minimum wage earners let's be real here, we don't get to choose who to serve, heck if that's not the case we wouldn't be out here scrambling for job interviews. In any case, systems sucks, all that shit, but we don't get to really do anything about it cause every single one of us have mouths to feed.

I say if you're not comfortable working on site, look into freelancing, but you'll be surprised to find how messed up the entry system to that world is as well.

its not about the # amount specifically..
its not about comparisons to 3rd world countries

lets clarify things. the person i spoke with was british working in britain thinking he was getting better than minimum wage due to him discounting vacation time from his income amount math of his labour..

the point is about the contract of if a business wants you to use 9.5 hours of your life per day where you are not free to do your own lifestyle enjoyment, due to having to meet expectations of a business, where they suggest to pay you the minimum of any countries legally limit.. but then even then. you are not actually getting paid that amount for your time

as for those comparing to other countries.. ok lets go extreme(not using specific £$ numbers)
imagine if the min wage was # an hour, in a food service. where they say the restaurant only opens between 2pm-9pm where they contract you for # * 7 a day for those 7 hours of opening time...... but they expect you to turn up at 1pm to prep the ingredients, wash down the tables and heat up the fryers before your work day(opening hours) begins.. and then at 9pm, not leave, but hang around and try to hurry up the slow eating customers and then turn down the fryers and leave by 10pm
you are giving them 9 hours of time but paid for 7hours

i have seen many in the food industry turn up early, leave late, unpaid.. just to keep the business operational.

i do not mind it if the employee is salaried to a fair income of above minimum wage to put in extra time/effort to help the business.. but when i hear how poor people are not even getting minimum wage for their time. thats a double insult to them..


if a business cannot operate by paying even the most basic legal requirement. that business should not operate. and people should not slave themselves just to keep a business in operation

Unfortunately, it's quite common to work off-schedule by going to work a little earlier and also leaving a few minutes after your shift is practically over. Moreover, the unpaid breaks should be included in your usually legal 8-hour shift, not as an extra. Your acquaintance, as you mentioned yourself, spends more than 9.5 hours in the vicinity of his workplace. He's spending his whole day practically just for work; 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. are way too long hours to be away. Not to mention how much time you spend communicating back and forth, and you're practically away from home for over 10 or even 11 hours, depending on how far your job is.

Ultimately, you're spending a lot more time than you're thinking about without being paid for it. I doubt that anyone would pay you for commuting, but arriving earlier and leaving a few minutes later should be paid, and unfortunately, it's something very common, and I have experienced it myself too.

I'm not really sure how's your life in your country if you get paid $20800 pretax per year, but in third world countries you're a millionaire and most of people want to become you.

People who live in third world countries will do anything in order to work, if you think he should get paid extra for 1.5 hours per day he spent, here it's really normal and it's more than 1.5 hours. It could be 2 hours, 3 hours etc and the company will said it's a proof if you're loyal with the company.

If you don't agree with that they can fired you or do something to make you not happy. The company has nothing to lose because there are many unemployment out there that can replace their current employees.

Many employees even willing to have a sex with the employer in order to get promoted.

This is will have been a very good advice if at all we have enough jobs available for everyone and you get to select and if it doesn’t meet your requirements or too exhausting for you, you move to other jobs. But with the figures you put out now, many will definitely take this job with an happy heart, sadly that’s what we have been reduced to. There are many that work more hours than this and get 2x less of this, and they still accept because as they say when the desirable becomes unavailable, the available becomes desirable.

The only better alternative to this kind of work hour jobs is the fixed payment rate which again are mostly government paid jobs and those are the ones that we hardly get recruited for.

So sadly it will be hard to get companies or organization pay you for just few minutes taking off the job, because it seems to be their policy all round, as this can also be related to their lack of productivity in those resting hours which in turns result to lack of profit too

For me that is not the issue. The question is, is that illegal in the UK? You are talking about the UK as I understand it. Well, if it is illegal, he can report it to the labour authorities.

He can start here:

Pay and work rights helpline and complaints

If the labour law allows it, he has nothing to do but try to change jobs.

And here is where you lost the crowd franky!!!

I'm really curious about the percentage of people who would start taking navigation courses and sail over 7 seas for that! Oh, screw that, look at the millions flooding Europe for even less than that, risking their life and leaving their families behind all for far less than that.
Redo the math for someone in the garment industry in Bangladesh or Vietnam, and then, when you ask if your entire life is worth $1000 you will realize the full meaning of "First World problem".


Grabbing popcorn and waiting for how this will turn for most of the users here, immediately after they hear they were supposed to have more than a 5-minute break during their 12-hour shift.


Hmm, some of the largest communities here, Pakistan   29 motor vehicles/1000 people,  India 59, Nigeria 61.....United Kingdom 600.
First World problem!!!!  

i was having a discussion with someone who was talking about the pro's and cons of his minimum wage job

he told me he works for 40hours a week at ~£$10 an hour for 52 weeks. =£$20800 pretax
he then says how in some countries they do not do paid time off. and how he gets 4weeks off fully paid. and he gets into detail that if he takes his £$20.8k and divides it by 48 and then 40, he is actually earning £$10.83 an hour

and this is where i then ask him
what hours does he leave home to go to work and then get home
he tells me the store opens at 9am and closes at 6pm but he has to be there at 8:45 to brief the days needs and exits at 6:15pm once all customers have left and doors are shut officially and securely

so this is not 8 hours obviously, but instead 9 hours 30 minutes
he says the hour extra is an unpaid breaks of 1x30min and 2x 15 minutes

i say to him in those unpaid breaks does he have enough FREE time to exit the business and do some personal chores unrestricted. he says no, he has to be in the vicinity of the workplace because he will get penalised if late back from lunch and the 15min breaks are not enough time to go anywhere personally without guaranteed penalty

so i get into detail with him.
for those 48 weeks of working of 5 days of 9.5hours for $20.8k pretax = 2280 hours / £$20.8k =£$9.12 an hour

i then inform him that this amount should be for his time. where i then enquire about his other costs just to be able to work.
so he tells me he spends about £$2 in fuel per day. and the £$6 on laundry and lunch(buys instore sandwich, drink,snack deal)
so out of the £$80 a day income for 9.5 hours he is only actually paid £$72 for his time

and now he works it out. he only gets £$8.20 per hour of his time of being in the vicinity of his workplace and not at home leisurely

.. we then started to debate the details, EG saving £$4 buy prepping meals at home for £$1 instead of £$4 and doing home batched clothes washing once a week instead of £$2 a day laundry

but even with all this, the number was far far below the $10 on contract and £$10.83 he thought he was getting if he deducted vacation time from his labour time

it just goes to show how little things like a restrictive activity unpaid lunch and extra start and end unpaid time before the business opens can take money way from your real life time

imagining being told your life was only worth £$10 an hour where they will compensate you for taking time out of your life to do things for them, under their policy.. but then not even getting £$10 an hour for your actual time spent out of your life

so folks. the gist is.. if a business requires you to be away from home and performing activities that benefit them from 8:45-6:15 make sure they pay you for all of that time ESPECIALLY if its minimum wage