How can I create a fake btc transaction which will be rejected

hatshepsut93

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Quote from: 20kevin20 on February 09, 2020, 02:13:43 PM

Well, in the scenario of a double spend isn't the first tx marked as invalid as soon as the second one goes out to the network with a higher fee?

It's only possible with RBF transactions, and if a node is aware about the most recent transaction, it will reject any previous transaction. But still these older transaction aren't 100% invalid, a miner can happen to mine an older transaction if they aren't yet aware about the new RBF transaction.

But without RBF the earliest transaction will be kept by nodes, and transactions that attempt to spend the same coin will be rejected. But until the spending is confirmed, any of those transactions can be included in a block. Broadcasting transactions isn't the only way to reach miners, you can theoretically contact miners directly, give them raw transaction and ask to include it in a block.

So, invalid in terms of being able to included in block and being able to be propagated by nodes can be slightly different things.

20kevin20

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on February 09, 2020, 12:45:13 PM

If a transaction is invalid, it won't even reach mining nodes, unless you broadcast it directly to them. The nodes don't waste their bandwidth on broadcasting invalid transactions, that would be vulnerable to DDOS.

Also, what you are talking about "banning transactions" is a different concept - nodes can censor valid transactions by refusing to include them, but you need to execute 51% attack to succeed at it, otherwise you'll just delay the confirmation by a block or two at best.

Well, in the scenario of a double spend isn't the first tx marked as invalid as soon as the second one goes out to the network with a higher fee?

And yes, wrong words used. Meant transaction censoring, not banning.

Mahanton

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Quote from: crzy on February 05, 2020, 05:54:20 PM

Quote from: WlanWerner on February 05, 2020, 04:37:41 PM

This sounds probably really strange but I am trying to figure out how to create a fake BTC transaction.

I know that it won't get accepted and that it will be rejected by the network, but for testing purposes I would like to know how I can submit a fake trancation to the network.
I kn

What for? I really wonder why you have to do this. We know that the transactions will be invalid if the address is incorrect and your transactions might not proceed because of that or if you really want to go with that transaction then send bitcoin into a wrong address which you can’t take it back anymore.

Maybe I am becoming just a negative person with age but I would assume it's for him to attempt to use with a lie or a part of a scam where he pretends to pay people and take a product or cash. I don't trust random questions like this.

Same perceptions and we cant really blame ourselves not to think up this way. Asking on how to fake btc transactions? or simply trying to double-spend? This is just a simple way or having the motive on scamming someone.
About the question theres no way for you to fake a btc transaction and all of those explanations above are valid ones.So if this is some sort of testing it isnt really a convincing
alibi for me. Grin

hatshepsut93

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Quote from: 20kevin20 on February 09, 2020, 03:14:37 AM

The miners can decide not to include the transactions broadcasted by an address in any block they mine, hence the address is banned by them (or by the pool).

Doesn't count as a GLOBAL ban though - a solo miner makes no change in the network unless they own a significant percentage of global hashing power and a pool banning the address doesn't automatically trigger all the other pools to ban it, but as soon as one spams the Blockchain network with an invalid tx, most pools and/or solo miners will eventually censor their txs.

If a transaction is invalid, it won't even reach mining nodes, unless you broadcast it directly to them. The nodes don't waste their bandwidth on broadcasting invalid transactions, that would be vulnerable to DDOS.

Also, what you are talking about "banning transactions" is a different concept - nodes can censor valid transactions by refusing to include them, but you need to execute 51% attack to succeed at it, otherwise you'll just delay the confirmation by a block or two at best.

pooya87

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Quote from: Ucy on February 09, 2020, 12:52:08 AM

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on February 05, 2020, 04:45:12 PM

There's a lot of ways how a transaction can be invalid - you can have invalid signature, you can have invalid input by trying to spend coins that don't exist, you can spend higher amount than you have, you can have incorrect transaction format, you can have incorrect output or fee amount and so on. Basically, look at the structure of a transaction and think how can you edit its values to make them invalid.

But what exactly do you want to achieve? You won't be able to spam the network, your peers will just refuse to broadcast it further, won't put it on their mempool and will likely ban you if you do it too much.

Concerning the ban...
I wonder how it works considering that the whole thing is trustless. I guess suspension is the better word.. . Or will the attacker's fund be frozen or something? If someone or Some people hijack people's computer and spam the network, I wonder how peers will handle it.

node ban violating nodes that connect to their node and send them garbage. this is done to protect themselves against certain types of attacks and stop their traffic from being wasted for no reason.
if someone hijacked someone else's computer they are going to do a lot more damage to that person than to the network such as stealing their funds, installing malware on their PC,... there isn't that much attack surface against a decentralized network after all.

20kevin20

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Quote from: Ucy on February 09, 2020, 12:52:08 AM

Concerning the ban...
I wonder how it works considering that the whole thing is trustless. I guess suspension is the better word.. . Or will the attacker's fund be frozen or something? If someone or Some people hijack people's computer and spam the network, I wonder how peers will handle it.

The miners can decide not to include the transactions broadcasted by an address in any block they mine, hence the address is banned by them (or by the pool).

Doesn't count as a GLOBAL ban though - a solo miner makes no change in the network unless they own a significant percentage of global hashing power and a pool banning the address doesn't automatically trigger all the other pools to ban it, but as soon as one spams the Blockchain network with an invalid tx, most pools and/or solo miners will eventually censor their txs.

Ucy

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on February 05, 2020, 04:45:12 PM

There's a lot of ways how a transaction can be invalid - you can have invalid signature, you can have invalid input by trying to spend coins that don't exist, you can spend higher amount than you have, you can have incorrect transaction format, you can have incorrect output or fee amount and so on. Basically, look at the structure of a transaction and think how can you edit its values to make them invalid.

But what exactly do you want to achieve? You won't be able to spam the network, your peers will just refuse to broadcast it further, won't put it on their mempool and will likely ban you if you do it too much.

Concerning the ban...
I wonder how it works considering that the whole thing is trustless. I guess suspension is the better word.. . Or will the attacker's fund be frozen or something? If someone or Some people hijack people's computer and spam the network, I wonder how peers will handle it.

The Cryptovator

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If you are wondering to make totally fake bitcoin transaction on the btc main blockchain then it's not possible. You can make transaction on test net, but you can't do anything with that transaction. Only thing you can do with main net called 'double spending'. Some users above already gave you examples how to do it. Otherwise there is no such as fake transaction type, you should have btc to broadcast your transaction, means it's real (not fake). Double spend will cause rejected your first transaction by btc blockchain so it doesn't mean fake transaction. It will show blockchain that your transaction has been rejected.

alani123

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Run as many 'fake' transactions as you want on a testnet. There you won't have to worry about spamming the network and moreover, the fees you might end up paying will consist of worthless coins.

WlanWerner

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Thanks for your answers, that did help me all in all.

And no, I don't want to scam anyone. I'm just curious

romero121

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Making a fake bitcoin transaction isn't possible, because when it comes to creating fake transaction it is like adding more than the supply of twenty one million. This isn't possible in the network. Some say through double spending it is possible, I'm not sure of it as this doesn't going to increase the supply.

If fake transaction is possible then it doesn't have any difference between the regular banking and the cryptocurrency network.

pooya87

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Quote from: WlanWerner on February 05, 2020, 05:00:42 PM

I don't want to spam the network, just create a single invalid transaction. I experimented a bit with my own BTC Payment Processor and I would like to know how it handles rejected transactions

unless you have written your own full node that verifies transactions/blocks it receives, your experiment is pointless because any existing full node (that are 99% bitcoin core) are already successfully rejecting any kind of invalid transaction that you can come up with. so if your "Payment Processor" is relying on these nodes it won't even receive it.

Darker45

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Quote from: crzy on February 05, 2020, 05:54:20 PM

Quote from: WlanWerner on February 05, 2020, 04:37:41 PM

This sounds probably really strange but I am trying to figure out how to create a fake BTC transaction.

I know that it won't get accepted and that it will be rejected by the network, but for testing purposes I would like to know how I can submit a fake trancation to the network.
I kn

What for? I really wonder why you have to do this. We know that the transactions will be invalid if the address is incorrect and your transactions might not proceed because of that or if you really want to go with that transaction then send bitcoin into a wrong address which you can’t take it back anymore.

Maybe I am becoming just a negative person with age but I would assume it's for him to attempt to use with a lie or a part of a scam where he pretends to pay people and take a product or cash. I don't trust random questions like this.

I don't think he/she would be able to that.

Random questions such as this raises more questions than answers. This man/woman admittedly knows that his/her fake transaction won't get accepted by the network. As a matter of fact, it won't even reach the network depending on which fake transaction he/she refers to. Perhaps this man/woman is just curious to know up to where a fake Bitcoin transaction would take him/her. Well, it won't take him/her far. The site or software he/she is using might simply tell him/her that his/her attempted transaction is erroneous. And everything ends there.

Debonaire217

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I wonder why op needed to execute this kind of act knowing about bitcoin's system in terms of blockchain.I could say, if you want to create a fake BTC transaction, you might want to double spemd your BTC, in such a case that the other transaction would not be confirmed on the net work, but the other will not escape the system to be confirmed. Though, you could use the ither which isn't accepted.

It might not be the most suitable solution, if you can, you could make a system.out of scratch that imitates bitcoi transaction without even using blockchain.

hatshepsut93

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Quote from: WlanWerner on February 05, 2020, 05:00:42 PM

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on February 05, 2020, 04:45:12 PM

There's a lot of ways how a transaction can be invalid - you can have invalid signature, you can have invalid input by trying to spend coins that don't exist, you can spend higher amount than you have, you can have incorrect transaction format, you can have incorrect output or fee amount and so on. Basically, look at the structure of a transaction and think how can you edit its values to make them invalid.

But what exactly do you want to achieve? You won't be able to spam the network, your peers will just refuse to broadcast it further, won't put it on their mempool and will likely ban you if you do it too much.

I don't want to spam the network, just create a single invalid transaction. I experimented a bit with my own BTC Payment Processor and I would like to know how it handles rejected transactions

Then one of the easiest methods is to take some existing transaction that is already mined and just try to broadcast it again. Although if you want to handle different errors, you would have to hand-craft invalid transactions yourself for different cases, if you can somehow get a reason why your transaction got rejected.

crzy

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Quote from: WlanWerner on February 05, 2020, 04:37:41 PM

This sounds probably really strange but I am trying to figure out how to create a fake BTC transaction.

I know that it won't get accepted and that it will be rejected by the network, but for testing purposes I would like to know how I can submit a fake trancation to the network.
I kn

What for? I really wonder why you have to do this. We know that the transactions will be invalid if the address is incorrect and your transactions might not proceed because of that or if you really want to go with that transaction then send bitcoin into a wrong address which you can’t take it back anymore.

BitMaxz

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In short, it's "double-spending" which is mostly used for scamming purposes.

What is your true purpose to make a fake transaction?

Quote from: WlanWerner on February 05, 2020, 05:00:42 PM

I don't want to spam the network, just create a single invalid transaction. I experimented a bit with my own BTC Payment Processor and I would like to know how it handles rejected transactions

If this is true you can get the idea from the video below how to double spend.

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycq7O48aPvQ

WlanWerner

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on February 05, 2020, 04:45:12 PM

There's a lot of ways how a transaction can be invalid - you can have invalid signature, you can have invalid input by trying to spend coins that don't exist, you can spend higher amount than you have, you can have incorrect transaction format, you can have incorrect output or fee amount and so on. Basically, look at the structure of a transaction and think how can you edit its values to make them invalid.

But what exactly do you want to achieve? You won't be able to spam the network, your peers will just refuse to broadcast it further, won't put it on their mempool and will likely ban you if you do it too much.

I don't want to spam the network, just create a single invalid transaction. I experimented a bit with my own BTC Payment Processor and I would like to know how it handles rejected transactions

hatshepsut93

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There's a lot of ways how a transaction can be invalid - you can have invalid signature, you can have invalid input by trying to spend coins that don't exist, you can spend higher amount than you have, you can have incorrect transaction format, you can have incorrect output or fee amount and so on. Basically, look at the structure of a transaction and think how can you edit its values to make them invalid.

But what exactly do you want to achieve? You won't be able to spam the network, your peers will just refuse to broadcast it further, won't put it on their mempool and will likely ban you if you do it too much.

WlanWerner

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This sounds probably really strange but I am trying to figure out how to create a fake BTC transaction.

I know that it won't get accepted and that it will be rejected by the network, but for testing purposes I would like to know how I can submit a fake trancation to the network.
I kn

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