How can we take Bitcoin Talk back into the Bitcoin community?

Cøbra

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Quote from: amishmanish on November 20, 2019, 05:07:21 AM

Quote from: Cøbra on April 08, 2019, 07:03:45 PM

Everyone is always organizing to rally against something, and that's where the problem with these platforms shows itself, it enforces conformity. Conformists are easy to control and manipulate.

This isn't just a problem with those social media platforms. Even the forum enforces conformity. For example, everyone just keeps praising and keeps saying good things about the Lightning Network despite the fact that LN is still not finding any users and is becoming over-engineered all the time.
There is desperate lack of genuine criticism even here at the forum because most of the older members wearing the sigs aren't discussing technical details but just commenting on the validity of LN at all times.

The forum doesn't enforce conformity. On social media platforms if you express the right opinions and cater to specific echo chambers, you get followers and build visibility as a reward. You delude yourself into believing you are leading thought, when in reality you are just a slave to the opinions of your followers, who will destroy you without mercy the moment you deviate from allowed thought. On the forum your opinions are always visible to readers. You don't need to have users on the forum following you to see your posts, much to the dismay of everyone if what you post is nonsense. Now internet communities trend more towards self-censoring filter bubbles, with people getting even crazier and intolerant of each other because they've gotten so used to being around like-minded folks that different opinions are especially more offensive and egregious than before.

LN is technically impressive, but its success depends on people seeing Bitcoin as cash, which nobody seems to want to do because Bitcoin is just perceived as a tool for speculative investment. There was a period where if LN was ready and practical, maybe around 2014, momentum could have picked up to have LN succeed in payments largely due to the Bitcoin community at the time being much more supportive of spending Bitcoin and companies being interested and open. But since then the community has become way too greedy to be able to create an actual Bitcoin economy.

amishmanish

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Quote from: Cøbra on April 08, 2019, 07:03:45 PM

Everyone is always organizing to rally against something, and that's where the problem with these platforms shows itself, it enforces conformity. Conformists are easy to control and manipulate.

This isn't just a problem with those social media platforms. Even the forum enforces conformity. For example, everyone just keeps praising and keeps saying good things about the Lightning Network despite the fact that LN is still not finding any users and is becoming over-engineered all the time.
There is desperate lack of genuine criticism even here at the forum because most of the older members wearing the sigs aren't discussing technical details but just commenting on the validity of LN at all times. These people have no idea that how actually bitcoin will scale. The ideas that get thrown around now simply do not have the same weight as they are more philosophical than technical.

That is where the answer to JetsCash's question is. If you want to bring the mojo back, you have to make it worthwhile for the devs to contribute. Most of the earliest devs are on payroll with Blockstream or other organizations. Nothing wrong in that. The lesson is that people who actually benefited from the forum should contribute to projects that aim to further bitcoin adoption.

Form a hierarchy of committed and technically sound people to guide projects. The funding should come from people who have benefited from being early adopters. Most of that crowd has moved out of the forum and are busy with their businesses etc. like Cobra pointed out. Find the champions.

Gyrsur

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release the new forum software and everything will get fine. Grin

OgNasty

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Coyster

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Quote from: BlockchainBoyyy on June 16, 2019, 10:28:26 AM

The first thing we can do is not ban people unless they are clearly spamming or scamming. Roll Eyes

No one gets banned for scam or spam, those offences are corrected by the trust system(flag system),as such users are given a red trust(trust flag),while excessive spam leads to the account being nuked or temp ban, 7 days or so.

Quote from: BlockchainBoyyy on June 16, 2019, 10:28:26 AM

How can we take Bitcoin Talk back into the Bitcoin community?
(DELETE THE MODS)

Mods are not topics or threads that gets deleted, they're humans.

BlockchainBoyyy

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Quote from: Jet Cash on February 17, 2019, 04:48:13 AM

Bitcoin Talk was created by Satoshi Nakamoto ( and others ) to promote awareness of Bitcoin. It was extremely successful, and Bitcoin is now a major force in banking and the Internet. Unfortunately it doesn't seem that BT has grown with it, and many of the major names seem to have abandoned the forum, or have never joined. This was brought home to me when I watched this video -
Satoshi Nakamoto: The Mysterious Founder of Bitcoin

I found the video interesting, although it includes a number of items with which I would disagree. It includes a reference to Reddit, but no mention of Bitcoin Talk - the forum that started the Bitcoin revolution. Is this because mainstream Bitcoin users and developers are not aware of the forum, or that they feel it is no longer relevant?

I'd like to see Bitcoin Talk regain its position as a significant contributor to the growth and acceptance of Bitcoin. What can I/we do to achieve this?

The first thing we can do is not ban people unless they are clearly spamming or scamming. Roll Eyes

How can we take Bitcoin Talk back into the Bitcoin community?
(DELETE THE MODS)

tranthidung

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finaleshot2016

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The legitimate pro's on bitcoin evaporated already to another dimension(platform) when they gain the knowledge here. That's the kind of people I wanted to control the bitcoin talk community because they prioritize the development of the blockchain rather than some people here who literally do bounties. The introduction of this forum to others was very dirty, I can clearly say it because most of the new members here are just directing towards the income without thinking the origin and purpose of this forum. Some of the higher-ups are trying to be kings but don't really have any contribution to our bitcoin community. They're self-proclaimed king because of being the first one who discovers the forum and trying to wipe out some low profile members.

I'm a tech-related course student and trying to make some innovative research about the blockchain. I'm tired of seeing repetitive concepts like for example, about the mining section, companies are just copying the algorithms and adding some extravagant features to have investors and users of their product. Intel, AMD, and other semiconductors company are good at making hardware, components to build-up and calculate algorithms very fast while the other mining companies are just trying to take advantage of it for the growth of their platform. No one didn't try/create any innovative invention that can also surpass the current device for mining. It's very similar in here, some of here are just trying to pump their business without trying to contribute anything good for our community.

My point is, what if we create or think something different for our bitcoin community? I know someone will get offended easily but most of the people are now focusing on a good reputation but they really lack about bitcoin. Bitcoin is a very powerful masterpiece that can exist for a hundred years, maybe its name in the future is Bitcoin v.7892, like that.

lobcmt2

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The issue is a major one, and out of my ability to contribute. However, I saw theymos wrote about his ideas to build up (changes on current system) merit system, to make it a decentralized merit system there:

Quote from: theymos on April 09, 2019, 12:37:45 AM

This thought occurred to me recently:

If you wanted to implement Merit in a decentralized forum (ie. one in the vein of Freenet's Frost or FMS), you could do it in this way:
- Everyone can, from their own perspective, give unlimited merit to posts, and these merit transactions are put into files which each user publishes via the decentralized system. (Like a merit.txt.xz which every user publishes.) Unlike on bitcointalk.org, you can also give people merit without an associated post.
- For everyone who has merit, you download their merit-transactions-list, but scale down/up all of the numbers so that the total merit that they send is equal to the actual sMerit that they own. It might or might not be useful to do this via some sliding time frame scheme so that merit transaction amounts aren't just continually diminished over time as they increase in quantity.
- Apply the above step recursively, creating a web-of-trust-style merit network

Then every user has a subjective merit score for each post (sort of like the bitcointalk.org trust system, which was inspired by FMS). And if you wish, you can assign people to be merit sources from your perspective by sending them large amounts of merit directly; these might or might not appear in the merit-transactions-list which you publish.

I created two topics in Meta, relates to the forum, so if those topics are helpful, it's good.
Steps to check potential phising links
List of scam / fake bitcointalk sites
In my opinion, somehow those topics can spread the forum's popularity and reputation out if we can better get rid of phising sites aim at bitcointalk.org forum. Hence, it might be one of way to bring the forum back into the Bitcoin community. When the forum has become better by merit system, it might become even better, and old users might come back if they look at the forum and have a feeling that bitcointalk.org changed and returned to its nearly originally pure forum.

Quote from: Jet Cash on February 17, 2019, 04:48:13 AM

Unfortunately it doesn't seem that BT has grown with it, and many of the major names seem to have abandoned the forum, or have never joined.

slocker

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@Cøbra has good point in this. But I dont understand why they left, to gain personal gain or more popularity of followers. This forum is live with many member good and bad, seem many forums that try to be like this one but failed and they are struggling to survive. Here you can find anything ask anything ans answers for anything. So far here I read anything from serious thing to funny ones, and this is the point. We also have disputes this is normal but I also believe that this is not just place to start but to get well informed and to learn something or to read something interesting. Here we have everything every topic that you can think about and all in one place. So my thinking is that those who left will some back but they wont be respected as they were before.

darklus123

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I was a part of the social media groups as well who discuss this things and I can personally say that it is too far from what people are discussing here. What they focused there basically is how to "earn" and that's it.

They are just sharing numerous sites or links where you can have or guides in getting one(which are obviously scams). That is why taking pride is very important if you know this community and you know that the information that other users were getting is wrong then educate them by leading them here.

The problem is that they will not because they don't understand it and there is no easy money scheme in here. Plus if you are an asshole you won't be targeting people who knows that you are actually scamming. Instead go to those people who absolutely do not understand what they are actually doing.

Lastly, you can easily post what you want on those platforms regardless of how bullsh*ts your post are there are still some people who believes in you because of their ignorance.

Therefore I can easily say OP that we are still leading people the right way when they come here. If I am not mistaken those people who were lead in here by their curiosity actually starting to understand the technology

Cøbra

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A lot of prominent members in the Bitcoin community started out on bitcointalk.org, then migrated to Reddit, and subsequently migrated from Reddit to Twitter. Many of these became "thought leaders" on Twitter, and no longer are active on Reddit or bitcointalk.org. I don't think it's because of the format or feel of the forum, I think it's more of an ego thing. The thing with Twitter is that if you have a minimum of a few thousand followers, you can write a good tweet and watch the likes and retweets pour in. It does give some level of satisfaction, something that can't quite be replicated on a forum. Eventually over time you find that people start trying very hard to be liked, so rather than stopping to form an opinion, they end up trying to fit into the group think. You see it in Bitcoin Twitter especially when everyone has the Lightning emoji in their name, the whole "UASF" in the bio/hats thing, absolutely toxic hatred of altcoins, and other examples of people trying desperately to fit into what everyone else in the community is doing. Everyone is always organizing to rally against something, and that's where the problem with these platforms shows itself, it enforces conformity. Conformists are easy to control and manipulate.

See the thing with these platforms though is that they intentionally trick you to seem bigger than they actually are. How many people on /r/Bitcoin post and contribute each day? It genuinely isn't that many, and on quiet days you can see a handful of very active discussions, and even those don't have very many unique new people. But the way the content is structured masks that. This forum has an insane amount of discussion taking place each day, across many different aspects of Bitcoin and periphery topics (economics, politics, services, etc). If you want price memes and surface level discussion, Reddit and Twitter are great, but this place has more variety and people are generally open minded, if you know which topics to post in. Twitter is also quite a small sample of Bitcoin users, for example Andreas' account, one of the most vocal and well respected Bitcoiners on social media only grew by ~60k followers in the past year, nothing compared to the type of numbers this forum achieves with new users.

There will be many forums and many places to discuss Bitcoin, many social media sites and many Facebook groups. But how many of those will have been something Satoshi created? A hundred years from now, nobody will give a shit about Twitter, Facebook or Reddit. But there's a good chance they will give a shit about Bitcoin (and one can hope they will be using it). You can be sure this forum will be in the history books. Little kids will look over archives of our threads as they dream of one day owning 1 BTC. Threads like "we are the new wealthy elite" will be discussed in classrooms. Homework assignments will ask kids to go and research how the HODL meme originated. If Bitcoin does take over the world, you can tell your grandkids you were in the place where it all began. We have something that can't be replicated elsewhere: history.

slocker

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I dont know what could anyway say or add to this topic. I'm not long into crypto story at all and to be honest I'm little late found out about this forum. From some time I could say that i read here and learn much more then on some social media (reddit for example). Never found anything useful there on anything. But believe that this can be solved. Probably there are good and bad sided like everything in life. Then think that maybe its better to have some serious brainstorming here. Many member are still active here helping one way or another, dont think that this can be some major step but can be start.

Quote from: hilariousetc on February 18, 2019, 08:05:14 AM

Bitcoin is bigger than this forum and it has obviously outgrown this place, but it's still an active hub (though arguably probably fuelled more by sign campaigns and ICOs than anything else right now).

This is true, but like everything in tech world that is growing by the minute now, can be solved and be good again. What was main reason when this forum was created to be place for all, big paying signatures campaigns or community with multiple solutions and answers for every question, maybe this could be staring point on how to take some steps on this.

hilariousetc

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Quote from: Jet Cash on February 17, 2019, 04:48:13 AM

Bitcoin Talk was created by Satoshi Nakamoto ( and others ) to promote awareness of Bitcoin. It was extremely successful, and Bitcoin is now a major force in banking and the Internet. Unfortunately it doesn't seem that BT has grown with it, and many of the major names seem to have abandoned the forum, or have never joined. This was brought home to me when I watched this video -
Satoshi Nakamoto: The Mysterious Founder of Bitcoin

I found the video interesting, although it includes a number of items with which I would disagree. It includes a reference to Reddit, but no mention of Bitcoin Talk - the forum that started the Bitcoin revolution. Is this because mainstream Bitcoin users and developers are not aware of the forum, or that they feel it is no longer relevant?

I'd like to see Bitcoin Talk regain its position as a significant contributor to the growth and acceptance of Bitcoin. What can I/we do to achieve this?

Bitcoin is bigger than this forum and it has obviously outgrown this place, but it's still an active hub (though arguably probably fuelled more by sign campaigns and ICOs than anything else right now). The video isn't a comprehensive history of bitcoin either. Sure, bitcointalk was there from the beginning and it wouldn't hurt to mention it but it's not something to worry about.

Besides, it's not like the video is wholly factually accurate:

lol

Quote from: Rambotnic on February 18, 2019, 07:19:37 AM

How to turn back the forum to the community ?
Remove the things that people can abuse: Trust score, Merit.

You really think removing these things would make a difference? Merit doesn't stop anyone from posting here but it certainly curbs spammers rising through the ranks, but rank or merit is meaningless really other than those who want to earn from posting here. As for trust I wouldn't be against scrapping the entire thing as people rely on it too much and assume negative or positive feedback from dt is is the be all and all of who is trustworthy or not.

Jet Cash

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Quote from: Crypto-DesignService on February 18, 2019, 07:02:00 AM

I am certain that the forums you used before has no source of income on the site.

All forums where I have been an active member have provided me with a means to gain an income. There is one exception, and that is a private hosting forum, but even that has a public board where I can display a signature. That forum has a very low activity though.

The best quality forums seem to be those where members' rewards are related to their post quality. For example, signatures that contain affiliate codes that reward posters by results. Bitcoin Talk has a lot of signature campaigns where the quality and competence of the poster is not relevant. The only thing that matters is the volume of posting. It also seems to act as an employment bureau for the deprecated social networking sites.

Rambotnic

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How to turn back the forum to the community ?
Remove the things that people can abuse: Trust score, Merit.
Provide easy access to the newbies (post and send pm's without restriction count per day).
Make the access to the community more easy to everyone, not only to the old members.
Remove from your brain claims such as suchmoon's "guilty until proven otherwise" because in the real world it is otherwise.
Do not let group of 20 people "DT" to ruin people profiles, jobs, time spend on this forum based on their own drug addicted opinions.

Crypto-DesignService

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Quote from: angel55 on February 17, 2019, 11:02:44 AM

I agree with what mprep said, all the forums I used to visit on the internet are dead or extremely inactive. Everyone has moved over to reddit, there is a category for everything on reddit. It is much easier to just create one reddit account and discuss anything you like.

I am certain that the forums you used before has no source of income on the site. If you compare bitcointalk to any forums there is a big difference on them as we're like a land full of oil(Altcoin sections).

You can't compare reddit to bitcointalk because
Reddit = More users because of wide selection/category of sub-reddits. For entertainment/informations
Bitcointalk = More users because there is a source of income(ICOs)

Try to move Altcoin section on other forum site and you will see a sudden amount of inactive users moving to the new forum that the altcoin transferred to.

If you are going to look at it, all the services we have on the forum is somewhat related to coin projects
Escrow services = huge amount of funds being escrowed is thru signature campaigns, bounty, ICO funds.
Design = Most of the designs are related to ANN thread, ICO visual site designs, ICO banners, ICO logos
Development = development about coin creation, website creation
Campaign manager = most of campaign managers source of income is about managing ICO signatures, bounties

We can't deny that around 70%(my estimate based on user engagements around Altcoin section) of users are here because of Altcoin section that bitcointalk has.

I also admit that aside from being in support to bitcoin I am also in to the jobs that is available around the forum.

^{sorry if my English is not that good.}

Jet Cash

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Quote from: MainIbem on February 18, 2019, 03:49:15 AM

>..<

I agree with your comment about the driving forces, but I'm not sure that they are the most important factors for the future. Things like the rise of the cashless society, the transfer of wealth, and the fake banking crypto-currencies are the things that really matter for long term economic survival. It's really difficult to discuss these topics, as most people are obsessed with the technical analysis of past trends and events, and we are moving into a completely new economic environment now.

MainIbem

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The driving message on BT today is price, bear run, bull runs, smart contract, ICO and the like. Hardly you see participation in serious discussion, Technical development, project development. If you can find a way to attract more members to these sections of the BT, it will reshape the mindset of members away from looking for monetary gains only.

Jet Cash

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Quote from: vit05 on February 17, 2019, 11:50:28 PM

They do this by using algorithms that expose what the supposed user will most like to see or read.

That is probably why I don't like them. I like controversial opinion, and novel ideas. I don't want to read a load of post by the sheep agreeing with the unicorns that are leading them into slavery.

CryptopreneurBrainboss

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Quote from: Jet Cash on February 17, 2019, 04:48:13 AM

I found the video interesting, although it includes a number of items with which I would disagree. It includes a reference to Reddit, but no mention of Bitcoin Talk - the forum that started the Bitcoin revolution.

Here's the catch, reddit and other social media needs publicity that's why they get mentioned in bitcoin related video as the video you saw above did. Bitcointalk doesn't need a promotional helps from those video because it promote itself. If I'm not mistaking, BT has over 2million+ registered account and they got that without a single advertisement. Any new investor/user interested in bitcoin will end up hearing about bitcointalk one way or the other that, this was the forum everything started from. Therefore i think the forum is doing good although there's some wisdom for improvement, lets leave others medias to enjoy the spotlight while we focus on maximising the potentials of BTC

Bitcointalk is already holding her position as the major contributor (as the growth ground for bitcoin) what else are we asking from the platform, she is doing great the way she is. That's just the fact.

YOSHIE

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Quote from: Jet Cash on February 17, 2019, 04:48:13 AM

I'd like to see Bitcoin Talk regain its position as a significant contributor to the growth and acceptance of Bitcoin. What can I/we do to achieve this?

Hello, Jet Cash, there are many things that can be done to convince the Bitcoin Community, for now you can start the extent to which this community has been running :Bitcoin_Wiki:Community_portalthis really helps you where you are,
As you mentioned: BITCOIN COMMUNITY, which was created in 2009 by Satoshi Nakamoto.

The name is linked in software that he designed, as well as peer-to-peer networks which are connected all of them. With a database, when transactions spread to P2P, I make sure that bitcoin can be spent by people who have it.

vit05

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It is difficult to find good topics and good discussions in the forum. Social Networks seeks to offer something that will grab the user's attention within the first two minutes of their visit.

They do this by using algorithms that expose what the supposed user will most like to see or read. Many people complain, say they prefer chronological order or something close to it. But this works. In Reddit, the function of downvote and upvote serves to offer you what is more popular and that you would probably like to see.

Social networks work by turning your visit into an addiction. And they do this by creating a sense of urgency. You need to comment or share that immediately. Also, in cases like Twitter, when you're an influencer, you're always on some kind of stage. It's not a discussion. This for people who work with their image, whether they are speakers or members of important companies, is much more rewarding than participating in a forum.

The forum is the opposite of all this. It is a place that allows continuous discussions, which can be extended for years, in a single topic. It is a place where the moment is not as important as in a chat room.

But if there is a will to attract more users, it need to be simpler for the person, who does not participate in the forum with some frequency, to be able to find good topics and good discussions. Perhaps an "all" or "popular" section where a list with no more than 30 topics would be organized using some algorithm. Gathering topics from all over the forum. Of course, this could attract spammers to those topics, but that's another problem that also needs to be solved.

Quickseller

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Bitcointalk was something that helped get Bitcoin off the ground and sparked adoption from near zero levels. While Bitcoin was very new, most people involved in Bitcoin (and the forum) largely valued their privacy/anonymity and had high levels of technical expertise. Companies had a fairly small customer base and as such did not need to communicate with customers as efficiently as possible.

Today, many Bitcoin (and crypto) users have much less technical expertise and value privacy less. Being that Facebook, Twitter and reddit are already used by many, newer Bitcoin users are likely to already have accounts on these platforms, and as such, to interact with others in regards to crypto. With bitcointalk not being very good to communicate with customers efficiently, companies will not push their customers onto bitcointalk to communicate, but rather to platforms such as FB, telegram and zendesk.

Having many people labeled as scammers by people who are not held accountable, and are labeled as scammers for arbitrary reasons, often unrelated to being a scammer is not helping anything.

If bitcointalk is going to grow, there will need to be better tools for companies to interact with customers. One solution might be to allow multiple people access a single PM inbox without having to share a single password. For example, "cryptostore" might have their customer send a PM with a problem, one employee might respond, and when the customer responds, a different employee could respond. This could be done by allowing multiple login credentials to access a single account, with different access levels (such as the ability to post, send PMs, and add/revoke access to either of these). The "mother" account could be a premium (paid) account and PM limits to these types of accounts could be lifted.

tranthidung

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TECSHARE

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IMO the meat grinder of scams and trust conflicts has been a large source of these issues. I know a lot of really good people this community could have used that just bailed because they got tired of being at the mercy of bored little OCD children with police hats running around often inventing crimes where there was none, punishing rivals, selectively enforcing, and just general childish control seeking behavior. If you have a community where some idiot can take your ability to trade on a whim, that doesn't exactly foster an environment people want to dedicate much time to, and just breeds general contempt.

Jet Cash

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Can some of you guys start some profound threads in Ivory Tower. At the moment the top 4 threads were started by me, and I haven't bumped them. It's a bit embarrassing really.

theymos

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Quote from: ABCbits on February 17, 2019, 12:00:07 PM

I agree, even though AFAIK there's sub-reddit option to remove downvote option.

There isn't, some subreddits just use CSS to hide the downvote button, which is stupid because it advantages the people who "break the rules" by turning off custom CSS so that they can downvote people.

Reddit, like all popular social media, sucks for real discussion. It strongly promotes a groupthink/bubble mentality, and furthermore people/organizations are constantly manipulating the system in order to fabricate a "groupthink". But people find it easy and satisfying to use, so they use it.

Quote from: ABCbits on February 17, 2019, 12:00:07 PM

Using Machine Learning to detect spam sounds good even though it's expensive

Current machine learning tech is OK at answering questions like "does this contain ". So it's OK at detecting clear-cut things like spam and obscenity (though dealing with an intelligent adversary makes the task much more difficult), but it's nowhere near being able to answer more abstract questions like "is this post off-topic?". This is why Twitter & friends keep failing to reliably detect things like "hate speech", since that's too abstract a concept for current ML tech.

I don't think that the hardware costs would be particularly expensive for any plausible bitcointalk.org usage of ML, but I don't think that it's worthwhile currently. Maybe if there was a massive influx of blatant spam. When you hear about big companies pouring tons of money into machine learning, I think that's almost entirely them trying to make the tech less terrible by hiring either ML experts or people who help produce training data.

poptok1

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Bobby Fischer was right

Quote from: mprep on February 17, 2019, 11:38:10 AM

A relic that gains value over time is a static object. A community is a living organism. If a community website doesn't adapt to the ever changing landscape of both the internet and society at large, it'll suffer a slow and painful death. I'm not saying Bitcointalk should do a 180 and change it's entire identity, but feature-full (as in by today's standards), easy to use and stable software as well as fostering a community are probably 2 of the few objectively beneficial things to strive for in an online forum.

It's not static, metals cover with patina, paintings get pale and so on. Sure maintenance is needed but custodians have this iron rule to never repair, only conserve. Of course it's a bad idea to apply this to computer code however preservation of the original experience can not be a bad thing... right? I do agree that it needs to stay on par with the technology, period. Only solution seems to be emulation

New soft, old looks.

Quote from: mprep on February 17, 2019, 11:38:10 AM

It's not a backstory if it's still the same as it used to be. A backstory is a tale of progression and change - how an object / person / event / platform evolved, not how it remained the same for eternity.

It is a backstory to me. Not only words but also those old obsolete signature codes, that link to non-existent places. Would be a shame to loose all that as it is a story. Sotory of change because of the medium, because it wasn't changed 5years ago in to something else. Call me sentimental but I truly believe in the power of traditions and those can't be built of liquid-like changes. This of course if preserving any satoshis spirit is our goal...

Quote from: mprep on February 17, 2019, 11:38:10 AM

This place is alive because it was the first and only official Bitcoin forum. In an alternate universe, if this forum wasn't the first one and thus in competition with all the other copycats, it probably wouldn't fare as well.

That's true. I don't know where I was going with this ;_p

Quote from: mprep on February 17, 2019, 11:38:10 AM

As someone who moderates the place as well as an active user of the forum, there are many, many broken things about the forum. There's a reason I barely venture outside Meta if I just want to chill and read some interesting content. Or maybe that's just me.

Obviously you know better. I saw this pattern couple of times though, owners decide to refresh UI, users complain, small part of them leaves never to return. Owners perform more updates to introduce fancy stuff -> dégringolade, downfall etc.
In my opinion this is the purest, most legible classic-forum around, basically the last page that does not make my eyes tired after 15 minutes of reading and so, I'm a little worried when I hear some staff member mentions drastic changes. Eh...can't stop progress, I guess, emulate Cool

Indamuck

hero member

Activity: 1120

Merit: 554

I prefer the old look of bitcointalk and I don't think it is an issue. Craigslist still has the same layout from years ago and looks like something out of the 1990s, yet it is still one of the most visited websites on the internet for commerce.

Jet Cash

legendary

Activity: 2814

Merit: 2472

https://JetCash.com

@ETFbitcoin

Thanks for the link to that thread. It's massive, so it will have to wait until tomorrow for me to read it.

Upgate

member

Activity: 560

Merit: 14

Although I think bitcoin talk is popular to an extent it has more than 2million registered(i stand to be corrected) but compared to bitcoin it's lacking behind.
What if bitcoin talk can have it own social media accounts on social media platforms.

ABCbits

legendary

Activity: 2870

Merit: 7490

Crypto Swap Exchange

Quote from: mprep on February 17, 2019, 11:38:10 AM

Reddit's threaded structure tends to water down discussions, splitting them up into numerous sub-discussions, as well as making it harder for the reader to easily read through a topic. It's upvote / downvote based comment and topic sorting and filtering essentially introduces censorship by democracy - unpopular opinions get pushed down and filtered out, while regurgitated popular opinions consistently get pushed to the top. I'm not particularly fond of Reddit's social media like site design either.

I agree, even though AFAIK there's sub-reddit option to remove downvote option.

Quote from: mprep on February 17, 2019, 11:38:10 AM

As for quality:

1. less strict moderation
2. spam eradicated
3. not spending massive amounts of money and effort on numerous staff, machine learning based detection systems, etc.

Pick 2

By removing signature and bounty child board, 3 of them can be achieved (or partially achieved) at cost forum activity significantly decreased.

Using Machine Learning to detect spam sounds good even though it's expensive, but it's possible if deleted posts because spam is preserved as training data, there's category option when report post and few people with such expertise.

Quote from: Jet Cash on February 17, 2019, 11:52:13 AM

I'm not sure where to discuss Lightning - would Bitcoin discussion be a good place? I want to start to use it to accept payments.

Not bad idea if you self-moderated the thread. You also can check https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4638321.320, but it's technical oriented discussion rather than general discussion

Jet Cash

legendary

Activity: 2814

Merit: 2472

https://JetCash.com

I can't get on with Reddit's format, and I think that Facebook and Twitter users are either kids, tossers, or politicians.

I really like the structure here, and there are some great members. I'd love to be able to interact with them, but it is pretty difficult at the moment. I think it is sad that more of the senior members don't use Serious discussion,and Ivory Tower.

I'm not sure where to discuss Lightning - would Bitcoin discussion be a good place? I want to start to use it to accept payments.

mprep

global moderator

Activity: 3794

Merit: 2612

In a world of peaches, don't ask for apple sauce

Quote from: Jet Cash on February 17, 2019, 08:14:52 AM

I'm probably giving away my age by saying that I am quite comfortable with the current forum layout. Of course there could be some minor changes, but in the main it is holding up well.

I'd say the issue isn't with the layout, but rather functionality. If one was able to choose (or create) his own layout for the forum, everyone could be satisfied. Technically, SMF 1.X supports custom themes but, as with many other features, it's been disabled for security reasons (possibly unsafe implementation or at least a massive attack vector).

Quote from: Jet Cash on February 17, 2019, 08:14:52 AM

Another potential for Bitcoin is the provision of rewards for content producers. Brave and Steemit are trying this. Where could one discuss this in relation to Bitcoin in the current forum? The Lightning network is another important development for Bitcoin - should we have a Lightning board?

AFAIK any Bitcoin-related tech discussion should reside in "Development & Technical Discussion". As for the Lightning Network, unless discussions on it are pushing down every other type of topic in one of the forum's boards, it's unlikely it'll get it's own section. In most cases, boards are only created when a subset of a board's topics pushes down the rest of them.

Quote from: poptok1 on February 17, 2019, 09:46:17 AM

Then it will stop being bitcointalk, at least for me.
There is this thing about relicts, they tend to gain value with time. I think it will happen here also.

A relic that gains value over time is a static object. A community is a living organism. If a community website doesn't adapt to the ever changing landscape of both the internet and society at large, it'll suffer a slow and painful death. I'm not saying Bitcointalk should do a 180 and change it's entire identity, but feature-full (as in by today's standards), easy to use and stable software as well as fostering a community are probably 2 of the few objectively beneficial things to strive for in an online forum.

Quote from: poptok1 on February 17, 2019, 09:46:17 AM

I think bitcoin needs this place to stay a little archaic, out of time, mostly because it needs backstory. Some sort of a background.

It's not a backstory if it's still the same as it used to be. A backstory is a tale of progression and change - how an object / person / event / platform evolved, not how it remained the same for eternity.

Quote from: poptok1 on February 17, 2019, 09:46:17 AM

In modern era conservative nature seems old-fashioned, pase even but nevertheless rock solid. Most stable constructions are built on bedrock, not sand and that's why this place is still alive, thriving in fact.

This place is alive because it was the first and only official Bitcoin forum. In an alternate universe, if this forum wasn't the first one and thus in competition with all the other copycats, it probably wouldn't fare as well.

Quote from: poptok1 on February 17, 2019, 09:46:17 AM

There also this; don't fix, what is not broken; rule, so in my mind this place is bitcoin

the other side of the same coin, in some sense.
People just don't seem to realise this.

As someone who moderates the place as well as an active user of the forum, there are many, many broken things about the forum. There's a reason I barely venture outside Meta if I just want to chill and read some interesting content. Or maybe that's just me.

Quote from: ?? on ??

For quantity (just like r/bitcoin), Bitcoin Talk UI/UX should evolve just like Reddit.
For quality, spam should be eradicated and less strict moderation.

But i don't see both option will happen anytime soon.

Reddit's threaded structure tends to water down discussions, splitting them up into numerous sub-discussions, as well as making it harder for the reader to easily read through a topic. It's upvote / downvote based comment and topic sorting and filtering essentially introduces censorship by democracy - unpopular opinions get pushed down and filtered out, while regurgitated popular opinions consistently get pushed to the top. I'm not particularly fond of Reddit's social media like site design either. As for quality:

1. less strict moderation
2. spam eradicated
3. not spending massive amounts of money and effort on numerous staff, machine learning based detection systems, etc.

Pick 2

Quote from: theymos on February 17, 2019, 11:01:03 AM

Quality and usefulness (which compete with freedom) are things that are always on my mind, but I'm not bothered by popularity. Most people will always use the big, popular platforms, and bitcointalk.org will never compete with them. Trying to compete with them would require totally changing how the site works, not just tweaking around the edges and adding a fresh coat of paint. (Our next-gen Epochtalk software works fundamentally the same way as the current software, just better.) I tend to agree with poptok1's post.

The point is not to compete with social media but be the best you can be in the category you're already competing in - online forums. Epochtalk's development is coming along at a painfully slow pace (see: code frequency; similar patterns in other repositories) with no end in sight for many onlookers. There's a clear systematic issue of incentivized spam, especially in the altcoin sections. Both of these situations indicate that there's a lack of manpower in tackling these issues, be it through oversight, coming up with intelligent and thought out solutions or preparing and applying detailed implementation plans. I'm not saying there are easy solutions (that keep in mind the core values of the Bitcointalk community), but there are many really smart people around the world who, when given sufficient compensation for their work and time, can sooner or later work out the way to properly mitigate these issues.

approximate tl;dr of the entire post: keep core values at heart and improve within the framework they've set up.

Theb

hero member

Activity: 1680

Merit: 655

I don't think Bitcointalk as a forum could regain something back to the way it was 10 years ago, by now Bitcointalk will be competing a lot of websites for its members. We have users who are loyal to specific Facebook groups, Subreddit pages, Telegram/Discord Channels, and of course other crypto-focused forums as well. To top it off not all people at this day in age are into forum like interactions, I don't know but I myself is not comfortable on using other forums because of their layout, luckily BCT is not one of them.

madnessteat

legendary

Activity: 2310

Merit: 2073

Try to compare forum usage and for example Reddit. It is more convenient for many people to communicate in social networks, and not on forums. Today, there are many other platforms where cryptocurrencies are discussed. The forum will be competitive if it is here that new information will appear.

angel55

full member

Activity: 630

Merit: 172

I agree with what mprep said, all the forums I used to visit on the internet are dead or extremely inactive. Everyone has moved over to reddit, there is a category for everything on reddit. It is much easier to just create one reddit account and discuss anything you like.

theymos

administrator

Activity: 5222

Merit: 13032

Quality and usefulness (which compete with freedom) are things that are always on my mind, but I'm not bothered by popularity. Most people will always use the big, popular platforms, and bitcointalk.org will never compete with them. Trying to compete with them would require totally changing how the site works, not just tweaking around the edges and adding a fresh coat of paint. (Our next-gen Epochtalk software works fundamentally the same way as the current software, just better.) I tend to agree with poptok1's post.

Quote from: friends1980 on February 17, 2019, 10:45:53 AM

does anyone have any idea if the number of new members is stagnating (significantly), or not?

We're at a local minimum, but registrations jump around a lot:

Code:

+---------------------+---------------+
| 30day starting | registrations |
+---------------------+---------------+
| 2009-11-02 00:00:00 | 3 |
| 2009-12-02 00:00:00 | 8 |
| 2010-01-01 00:00:00 | 8 |
| 2010-01-31 00:00:00 | 22 |
| 2010-03-02 00:00:00 | 5 |
| 2010-04-01 00:00:00 | 22 |
| 2010-05-01 00:00:00 | 15 |
| 2010-05-31 00:00:00 | 33 |
| 2010-06-30 00:00:00 | 325 |
| 2010-07-30 00:00:00 | 159 |
| 2010-08-29 00:00:00 | 148 |
| 2010-09-28 00:00:00 | 190 |
| 2010-10-28 00:00:00 | 204 |
| 2010-11-27 00:00:00 | 383 |
| 2010-12-27 00:00:00 | 384 |
| 2011-01-26 00:00:00 | 938 |
| 2011-02-25 00:00:00 | 2202 |
| 2011-03-27 00:00:00 | 2737 |
| 2011-04-26 00:00:00 | 4936 |
| 2011-05-26 00:00:00 | 14048 |
| 2011-06-25 00:00:00 | 6250 |
| 2011-07-25 00:00:00 | 3903 |
| 2011-08-24 00:00:00 | 2938 |
| 2011-09-23 00:00:00 | 1983 |
| 2011-10-23 00:00:00 | 1965 |
| 2011-11-22 00:00:00 | 1835 |
| 2011-12-22 00:00:00 | 1812 |
| 2012-01-21 00:00:00 | 2082 |
| 2012-02-20 00:00:00 | 1901 |
| 2012-03-21 00:00:00 | 2158 |
| 2012-04-20 00:00:00 | 1969 |
| 2012-05-20 00:00:00 | 2057 |
| 2012-06-19 00:00:00 | 2040 |
| 2012-07-19 00:00:00 | 2145 |
| 2012-08-18 00:00:00 | 2419 |
| 2012-09-17 00:00:00 | 2661 |
| 2012-10-17 00:00:00 | 2958 |
| 2012-11-16 00:00:00 | 2763 |
| 2012-12-16 00:00:00 | 2611 |
| 2013-01-15 00:00:00 | 3320 |
| 2013-02-14 00:00:00 | 4933 |
| 2013-03-16 00:00:00 | 13816 |
| 2013-04-15 00:00:00 | 18162 |
| 2013-05-15 00:00:00 | 11318 |
| 2013-06-14 00:00:00 | 8095 |
| 2013-07-14 00:00:00 | 6703 |
| 2013-08-13 00:00:00 | 5505 |
| 2013-09-12 00:00:00 | 4137 |
| 2013-10-12 00:00:00 | 5632 |
| 2013-11-11 00:00:00 | 26804 |
| 2013-12-11 00:00:00 | 28776 |
| 2014-01-10 00:00:00 | 29576 |
| 2014-02-09 00:00:00 | 29839 |
| 2014-03-11 00:00:00 | 22534 |
| 2014-04-10 00:00:00 | 18065 |
| 2014-05-10 00:00:00 | 13071 |
| 2014-06-09 00:00:00 | 12180 |
| 2014-07-09 00:00:00 | 10561 |
| 2014-08-08 00:00:00 | 10925 |
| 2014-09-07 00:00:00 | 9418 |
| 2014-10-07 00:00:00 | 8218 |
| 2014-11-06 00:00:00 | 7974 |
| 2014-12-06 00:00:00 | 8136 |
| 2015-01-05 00:00:00 | 23256 |
| 2015-02-04 00:00:00 | 36913 |
| 2015-03-06 00:00:00 | 33500 |
| 2015-04-05 00:00:00 | 8450 |
| 2015-05-05 00:00:00 | 8577 |
| 2015-06-04 00:00:00 | 10303 |
| 2015-07-04 00:00:00 | 11773 |
| 2015-08-03 00:00:00 | 9725 |
| 2015-09-02 00:00:00 | 7644 |
| 2015-10-02 00:00:00 | 68601 |
| 2015-11-01 00:00:00 | 44059 |
| 2015-12-01 00:00:00 | 39244 |
| 2015-12-31 00:00:00 | 37106 |
| 2016-01-30 00:00:00 | 42233 |
| 2016-02-29 00:00:00 | 24213 |
| 2016-03-30 00:00:00 | 19336 |
| 2016-04-29 00:00:00 | 16031 |
| 2016-05-29 00:00:00 | 19935 |
| 2016-06-28 00:00:00 | 12582 |
| 2016-07-28 00:00:00 | 10646 |
| 2016-08-27 00:00:00 | 9986 |
| 2016-09-26 00:00:00 | 9844 |
| 2016-10-26 00:00:00 | 10718 |
| 2016-11-25 00:00:00 | 10691 |
| 2016-12-25 00:00:00 | 12429 |
| 2017-01-24 00:00:00 | 13664 |
| 2017-02-23 00:00:00 | 13893 |
| 2017-03-25 00:00:00 | 15276 |
| 2017-04-24 00:00:00 | 20585 |
| 2017-05-24 00:00:00 | 31381 |
| 2017-06-23 00:00:00 | 35866 |
| 2017-07-23 00:00:00 | 40726 |
| 2017-08-22 00:00:00 | 45026 |
| 2017-09-21 00:00:00 | 70477 |
| 2017-10-21 00:00:00 | 95568 |
| 2017-11-20 00:00:00 | 144762 |
| 2017-12-20 00:00:00 | 238433 |
| 2018-01-19 00:00:00 | 136872 |
| 2018-02-18 00:00:00 | 107237 |
| 2018-03-20 00:00:00 | 87087 |
| 2018-04-19 00:00:00 | 89659 |
| 2018-05-19 00:00:00 | 83999 |
| 2018-06-18 00:00:00 | 72430 |
| 2018-07-18 00:00:00 | 61360 |
| 2018-08-17 00:00:00 | 43451 |
| 2018-09-16 00:00:00 | 43516 |
| 2018-10-16 00:00:00 | 35335 |
| 2018-11-15 00:00:00 | 31502 |
| 2018-12-15 00:00:00 | 20733 |
| 2019-01-14 00:00:00 | 20046 |
| 2019-02-13 00:00:00 | 2763 | [PARTIAL PERIOD]
+---------------------+---------------+

friends1980

legendary

Activity: 1582

Merit: 1059

nutildah-III / NFT2021-04-01

Quote from: poptok1 on February 17, 2019, 09:46:17 AM

IMO normal people actually don't know about this place, because it became competitive due to sig.campaigns and in the interest of members is to keep it obscured. Devs... idk, they should at least be aware but remember the times when almost every new project was called a scam and hyena feeding of original idea? Roll Eyes

might be the reason, I guess.

I've noticed many devs have switched to Telegram, and even Bounty Campaigns use Telegram channels for their communication. I am not sure this is a good evolution. Of course, it is an easy way to get rid of FUDers and spammers (which is a good thing for BT, too), as you can block whoever you want, but then again it avoids critical voices and opinions from being heard.

Maybe it wouldn't be a bad thing if BT evolved (again) to a technical forum, seeing less and less spammers joining the forum. That being said - and not wanting to go off-topic but: does anyone have any idea if the number of new members is stagnating (significantly), or not?

poptok1

hero member

Activity: 1638

Merit: 756

Bobby Fischer was right

Quote from: mprep on February 17, 2019, 07:45:28 AM

-snip-
In the end though, IMO many perceive forums like Bitcointalk as a relic of a bygone age. And unless all major social media platforms suddenly imploded, I don't think the situation is gonna change any time soon. However, if Bitcointalk upgraded it's software, supercharged it's attention towards effectively managing the community and put in effort into marketing itself, it might be able to regain it's position as the premier platform for crypto-related discussion for everyone.

Then it will stop being bitcointalk, at least for me.
There is this thing about relicts, they tend to gain value with time. I think it will happen here also.
Even in today times we can see how people react to old satoshis posts. Ton's of merits, threads are still active and links to his words are still being interchanged, discussed. This won't stop, you are right, its like fuel in perpetual motion machine.
I think bitcoin needs this place to stay a little archaic, out of time, mostly because it needs backstory. Some sort of a background.
In modern era conservative nature seems old-fashioned, pase even but nevertheless rock solid. Most stable constructions are built on bedrock, not sand and that's why this place is still alive, thriving in fact.
There also this; don't fix, what is not broken; rule, so in my mind this place is bitcoin

the other side of the same coin, in some sense.
People just don't seem to realise this.

Quote from: Jet Cash on February 17, 2019, 04:48:13 AM

Is this because mainstream Bitcoin users and developers are not aware of the forum, or that they feel it is no longer relevant?

IMO normal people actually don't know about this place, because it became competitive due to sig.campaigns and in the interest of members is to keep it obscured. Devs... idk, they should at least be aware but remember the times when almost every new project was called a scam and hyena feeding of original idea? Roll Eyes

might be the reason, I guess.

tranthidung

legendary

Activity: 2310

Merit: 4085

Farewell o_e_l_e_o

Thank you, Jet Cash for creating the topic.
The video in the OP is great, I have not watched all the video, but I will do watch all of it.
Your topic also raised a ideas in my mind. You will know what it is soon.
By the way, have a nice weekend, all bitcointalkers.
Grin

Jet Cash

legendary

Activity: 2814

Merit: 2472

https://JetCash.com

I'm probably giving away my age by saying that I am quite comfortable with the current forum layout. Of course there could be some minor changes, but in the main it is holding up well.

I don't consider Theymos to be a despot, quite the reverse in fact. I think he could do with adopting a few of Trump's approaches. Not the hair, but draining the swamp, building a wall, and reducing the immigration of non-productive members would be a start.

For Bitcoin to survive, it does need a bit of protection, and this will have to come from an informed global population. In my opinion, mining is a possible vulnerability in the future. Whilst we have zero interest rates, and fractional reserve banking, it would be possible for the bankers to take control of mining by using public funds. The creation of hobby mining pools could be one way to help reduce this risk, but it requires many of the smaller users and investors in Bitcoin to learn and understand mining. There is no possibility of this in the current Bitcoin Talk environment.

Another potential for Bitcoin is the provision of rewards for content producers. Brave and Steemit are trying this. Where could one discuss this in relation to Bitcoin in the current forum? The Lightning network is another important development for Bitcoin - should we have a Lightning board?

mprep

global moderator

Activity: 3794

Merit: 2612

In a world of peaches, don't ask for apple sauce

Niche communities being spread out across the internet in their own little forums and chat rooms is rare sight nowadays. Ever since Facebook started gaining popularity around the mid 00s, internet communities, small and large, started congregating in these massive media platforms. The aforementioned Facebook, Twitter, Reddit (alongside some other ones I might've missed) have largely replaced regular niche oriented sites. Such is the nature of the internet turning mainstream.

However, even if we were to put aside the ever growing centralisation of social / public-driven media, Bitcointalk always drew in a specific type of crowd when it comes to it's regulars (with a few exceptions) - hardcore cryptocurrency supporters. Hence if you are just starting to get involved in crypto or are aiming to reach a more casual crowd, participating here really doesn't make sense.

In addition, quite a few people outside the forum have a negative view towards how the forum is run, be it through first hand experience or through stuff they read about it online. The fact that the forum's running on an extremely outdated piece of software (both design-wise as well as functionality-wise) has definitely turned some people off. The general lack of manegerial attention (fostering the community through events, some level of basic marketing, actively working on solving pressing issues such as sig spam) is definitely turning away both new and old members alike. The forum is growing every day and theymos (and to some extent Cyrus) can only do so much without any professional help.

Some may dislike theymos himself. theymos' ban on BitcoinXT on /r/bitcoin (as well as his subsequent comments on the situation) have left some members on Reddit (and 4chan) perceiving theymos as a despot who censors dissenting opinion. While there's no concrete evidence, it's not a stretch to assume that some users have avoided participating in and promoting the forum due to this situation.

In the end though, IMO many perceive forums like Bitcointalk as a relic of a bygone age. And unless all major social media platforms suddenly imploded, I don't think the situation is gonna change any time soon. However, if Bitcointalk upgraded it's software, supercharged it's attention towards effectively managing the community and put in effort into marketing itself, it might be able to regain it's position as the premier platform for crypto-related discussion for everyone.

friends1980

legendary

Activity: 1582

Merit: 1059

nutildah-III / NFT2021-04-01

Maybe the right conclusion is: BT has reached its goal. What remains on the forum are the people who are interested in the more detailed, "specialized" parts of blockchain, trading and new projects. And of course the classic bounty hunters.

I think it's safe to say that everybody around the world who opens up a newspaper from time to time, has heard about Bitcoin right now. This is thanks to BT because this is where it all started.

Angel of Death

newbie

Activity: 7

Merit: 0

Bitcoin Talk back to the Bitcoin community?
Very important:
Bitcoin talk and Bitcoin It is the belief of every strong member, in this discourse the community must be supported by meaningful goals and the Forum, Bitcointalk and Bitcoin have a special purpose, namely both in trade and community.
What is Bitcoin:
Bitcoin aims to be a revolutionary form in bringing Bitcointalk communities and cryptocurrency together.
Community goals:
brings together the bitcointalk and cryptocurrency communities in one place for example Forum. It contains unique characteristics and special objectives compared to other Forums out there without intrinsic value or real purpose.

Jet Cash

legendary

Activity: 2814

Merit: 2472

https://JetCash.com

Bitcoin Talk was created by Satoshi Nakamoto ( and others ) to promote awareness of Bitcoin. It was extremely successful, and Bitcoin is now a major force in banking and the Internet. Unfortunately it doesn't seem that BT has grown with it, and many of the major names seem to have abandoned the forum, or have never joined. This was brought home to me when I watched this video -
Satoshi Nakamoto: The Mysterious Founder of Bitcoin

I found the video interesting, although it includes a number of items with which I would disagree. It includes a reference to Reddit, but no mention of Bitcoin Talk - the forum that started the Bitcoin revolution. Is this because mainstream Bitcoin users and developers are not aware of the forum, or that they feel it is no longer relevant?

I'd like to see Bitcoin Talk regain its position as a significant contributor to the growth and acceptance of Bitcoin. What can I/we do to achieve this?

Topic: How can we take Bitcoin Talk back into the Bitcoin community? (Read 1619 times)