Topic: How FAIR are those provably fair games? (Read 3371 times)

Hi, actually, provably fair is not provably random.  You see all that happens in provably fair is that they pre-commit a seed before you bet and then they hash it so you can view it after.
Now that just magic...why?  Because most probably fair systems are not probably random.  Most gamblers over time start making similar bets in many games, and every casino tracks your action.
What this means is that they can, in many cases, guess what a player wont bet (at the least).  And this means they can pre-commit a seed that you are not likely to bet - and you may not even know it!
Some new casinos in Blockchain are using provably fair and random peer-to-peer cryptographic solutions.
Check out D2W.Bet
And check out this: https://medium.com/d2w-bet/blockdraws-golle-algorithm-a-distributed-p2p-cryptographic-algorithm-for-generating-provably-a282581f787f

I can assure you that provably fair feature can be trusted whatsoever you have to learn a little more about it and check the service you will be using if it is for sure probably fair.

Every casino or gambling service has to provide some evidence on how this provably fair thing works by them.

There has to be info provided after the bet for you to check the fairness and nobody will do it for you.

So or you will learn this feature and check your bets or you don't have any other option as to blindly believe that the service you are using is provably fair.

I can only advise in such a situation to make a proper research before you choose the gambling site for your deposit.

Actually an interesting question you have asked.I also saw many many gambling sites are using this phrase "Provably fair "  From Wikipedia i learned this is a phrase used on gambling which defines the game is fair for both side.But I don't know how gambling sites using this because It's a algorithm Which verify that this is a fair match.     

No, we should not trust all the dice games. Because there are many dice game which is not fair. They always try to steal money from the player. So be safe from these untrusted dice games you should use some trusted site which is more familiar for many years. To find out the trusted gamble site you can visit this. [Overview of all bitcoin casinos] Latest update: 14-03-19 VISIT NEW WEBSITE]

Good question. I was thinking about about this too.

Can't the owners rig things quickly before the data is hashed or something... considering the fact that everything is still done on centralized servers (with no checks).
I guess things will be difficult to rig only on blockchain based gamblings.

 i dont think they will put their reputation at stake.
so for those old and trusted sites, i believe they will not do such thing because one mistake will ruin their image in a snap.
and there will be no turning back if they will do this even at one time. the credibility will not be the same ever again.

iam also playing on long trusted gambling pages like primedice and freebitcoin....
But i dont know exactly but i guess they can change there system easy in the background.
So can  provably fair games  be rigged by the admin without your known ?

regards

Exactly, no games are fair even if they claim to be provably fair games.  No one knows what is the exact house edge which is implemented in the backend and therefore the probability of a player to win is very less as compare to the house (Casino).

why would you say this? just check out https://funfair.io

I have post it before but who cares to read the thread

They will never make their ledgers public as most of them are not provably fair games. This is the main reason why we see many people lose and houses win.
We never know what exactly running behind the house but it is never 100% fair game play.

Correct, with having a house edge all of these kind of games wont really be considered 50-50% chance unless if its a toss coin then it would be considered. Talking about fairness, we cant really sure if they are
even they are reputable ones.Verifying is one of things should be done if you are on doubt but i believe most people wont really matter to check it out as long they would go to the popular ones which is being trusted.

I disagree, it's not a 50:50 chance because there is a house edge.

Indeed. Those games are just fair enough for us players. What is not enough is the luck we have to win those games since they are practically application of probability so we have a 50:50 chance of winning or loosing the game. You seems to be enjoying playing into that online casino you were talking about that gets my interest.

thats the best way to play with these games. diligently choose your sites before sending any penny to them.
 and no one can beat by choosing the reputable ones with known fair systems.
  and tbh cross checking the seeds would take so much of your time, so very few are doing this unless they started to doubt the system of the site.

You can go for checking their seed at each and every time to make sure that you are gambling in a fair environment and when you gambling house is a registered one and you are finding problems with their seeds then you may go for filing sue against them and the rest must be proved in the court to punish them for rigging the gambling environment in favor of them.

This is the reason, we should gamble only with fully licensed gambling house. But, now a days people are even ready to gamble even with a discord bot too. Playing only with famous and highly reputed house will solve all our hassles as no gambler might not be having enough time to cross check all the seeds, he does gamble with.

We cannot blame them if you think its unfair for you to lose always, but this is what gambling are and its the house goal to make profit from every gambler. Though we may feel sometimes that its unfair because were supposed to win and yet the machine decline it so technically that's how the house works.

sorry mate it looks I should have posted the link
but when I googled it the first result was - Game-changing blockchain casino technology - FunFair -
https://funfair.io

please take a look cause this is the best solution ever if they deliver. I met them at the ICE in London

cheers

Well, the truth, if they are fair, they have their audits completely public so that they can be reviewed by their users, and well, remember the phrase: "The house always wins", although, as players, we are always looking for ways to believe that we can take advantage, there are in those windows of probabilities in which you should take advantage of a benefit, but if I discovered that they are fair, there is a factor that is in our favor, which is called Good Luck.

i googled it and this is the meaning > funfair - a fair consisting of rides, sideshows, and other amusements .

i think you miss heard the title . the title says fair , not funfair .   op is asking for the fairness of gambling games  .


same here  .  but not only us , most of us do  . others do also feel the same  . gambling is verry unpredictable  , you wont know if you win or loose  . that what makes you loose confidence  .

google FunFair and you will see what provably fair means!

Provably fair is the right feature and if truly implemented , it will give fairly benefit to the gambler.  But i think many sites claim to be provably fair but actually they are not. They are just scamming people by not being provably fair at the backend.

Fair games are only fair to the house which generate huge profit compare to those gamblers. I also don't trust gambling much, though I'm not expecting to win big but if you do trust much any casinos or what, you will just be fooled later on. Sports betting is the best way to gambler for me, its quiet less risk.

Probably they are fair. It is just that the chances or luck is not just always fair for us. Since gambling is an application of probability in a game, chances of winning is not always present that is why maybe you are doubting about the credibility of the fair games they have. You just need to be wise on thinking about your bets in playing gambling. You just need to enjoy every game you play and do not put further pressure on playing just like what I did on playing into the online casino that I am currently into because I enjoy the variety of games they have as well as the great deal when the first time I have done my deposit and received their reward as a welcome bonus.

Sports betting is also a kind of gambling because it involves money and it does not mean that you play your favorite gambling game you can now win more often . no it does not work that way ,  at certain times you can still loose because gambling depends on mainly luck with only few skills involved .

Anyway , some provably fair games are because they allow you to verify your rolls using your seeds . idk if other sites do also have these features   .

I don't have a huge confidence in all the gambling I mostly use the sports betting because if you know that which will be suitable for you then only you can make the money from gambling field so use it more properly for your talent.

Those Gambling games are still in the top position because of it trustability and stability for long time and people also will need these qualities before need some investment on gambling but not all the sites are trustable but still it had some good way of gambling also.

I definitely trust my gambling websites because if we don't have that confident in your mind then the good website is also visible for you only ICS camp so make sure before entering into a website it will be a proper subset and proper way to invest money then only the conference will remain same in your mind

I don't completely trust any of the sites while gambling and investing because some of them that definitely rigged here because we don't know which is the best and what is the right path to choose the best so don't completely trust any game or gambling site quickly.

Don't know why this thread is being bumped up once again but this is worth to be discussed once again. Imagine a 2015 old thread bumped in 2019.

Back on topic, for reputable or popular gambling sites you would really able to verify bets that's why anytime theres a new site, usually people do ask about provably fairness into their games.

They are fair but you will not win because they have a house edge.
Maybe some gamblers are thinking it's not fair because they are losing, if they are not fair, they will be tagged as scam gambling sites here.
We have good people who are willing to help verifying the fairness of the gambling sites, primedice is one good example, they lasted this long
and they have a lot of gamblers trusting them.

There are a set of protocols to follow if you want to prove that your game is provably fair.
If the game's site does not have this procedure, don't use it.

I personally have a stronger faith in nonce based provably fair system (manually changing client seed every bet just in case is too much effort, lol).




999dice is accused of being rigged (not provably fair unless you verify each bet). Fairproof has lot of scam accusations. Other than that most of the popular dice sites here are not as far as I am aware of.

Known dice sites are not rigged, but that doesn't mean you'll win in long terms (short terms too), that's why the 1% house edge is there

and who decides who is a trustworthy side?

best would be if trusted people like dooglus,stunna, Ryan, Nico etc would offer a service (against payment)
to test/check casinos for their provably fair implementation.

As provably fair is used as standard and no authentic person oppose these system so we can trust without any doubt.I fully trust every trustworthy site which is well know so for me its ok and fair.

I'd be interested in donating some funds to NLNico, or someone else trusted and as knowledgeable, to develop some open source browser extension that would verify all your bets made on a site in real time and instantly warn you if something was wrong.

Obviously with a nonce version like on dice sites it wouldn't be able to verify until you changed the seed but it could log all the bets you made and verify them once you change seed.

All sites who use provably fair could donate and give help on understanding how their implementations worked.

I don't agree with you about your statement other dice site when any dice site provably fair and each bet result can be verify on 3rd party verifier like NLNico providing best services regarding environment than it is all about our luck because every type of gambling needed luck to win from house edge.

@JackpotRacer:

A lot of people bet thousands of bets with the same serverseed. In theory you can keep betting with millions of bets. So the range can be much bigger than 30 bets. However....

If you made a million bets.. what would you really verify? You can calculate all million bet outcomes, but did you keep record of all million bets (and the amount u bet etc)? Probably not, so you would probably just check the latest bets. Therefor in theory it is better to verify every xx bets, where xx is the number of bets on the "My bets" tab. In reality, like I said, most just verify after losing some, which isn't ideal but okay - at least they can know if they were cheated when losing those bets.


They should implement the nonce-system imo RHavar have said a few times that the "per roll method" could be great if there is an "automated script that verifies each outcome after each bet" and I could agree, but in reality it doesn't really exist at the moment.

(I guess "Seuntjies DiceBot" has some verifying option, but -personally- I prefer to not run .exe files and the source code is too big for me to easily check. )



We are talking about provably fair here. The implementation of FJ is "per roll" which isn't ideal to verify IMO. They do at least generate a random clientseed in the browser, not like my earlier NitrogenSports example. So FJ's implementation for dice (didn't check other games) looks okay enough. Still I do think others have better implementations.

Yes you can.
If properly implemented, the provably fair feature can mathematically prove the fairness of the game.
However there are many sites which purposefully don't have proper provably fair, fooling the inexperienced players.

I don't trust most of the dice sites in Bitcoin business. Right now I only prefer to play at Fortunejack. Other than that we all know what happens in other dice sites, crook owners change codes and you can never win anything from them. Don't play at other dice sites.

i saw a lot people in sites complaining that provably fair is
really not fair and it is rigged.
but almost all sites telling their sites are fair.
well for me. i think its still fair and not rigged.
but i know that the coder or owner can make it rigged.
making the house more favorable for them.
well this is only my opinion.
goodluck.

nice to see that it must not be invented as it already exists. I am not sure if I understand it right but did you mean that the length of the possible range to check after the gaming session is 30 bets only or could it be longer if needed?

yes and it is exactly as you said
-Especially because most players just check their bets after a losing streak, and this allows to easily verify your latest bets.-

any answer why it is not a general model that is used in provably fair casinos?

I have read (more than once) the http://dicesites.com/provably-fair but I understand when you are explaining it but I could never implement it in a game.

It seems you have been lost some big amount on any dice site so that can be reason to ask this question whether these are provably fair or not, when we get busted on any losing streak than that is first question which comes in mind this not fair gambling, NLNico describe the method to check any dice site provably fair mechanism so you can understand about this provably fair system.

IMO a better implementation is with nonce-system. This way a player have to do this:

1. Go to provably fair tab
2. Copy serverseed hash
3. Set clientseed
4. Start betting all you want
5. After you are done with your betting session, go back to provably fair tab
6. Get the serverseed
7. Put the details in a verifier

This will then generate all the bets you made. So you do not have to do it "every bet".


I can come up with limitations here too (if you made hundreds or thousands of bets, obviously you don't have a full history of it, most times only like 30 bets on "my bet" tab.) But I do think it works better in reality than the "per roll" implementation. Especially because most players just check their bets after a losing streak, and this allows to easily verify your latest bets.

I personally think all websites can improve their implementations and I am planning to "review" the provably fair implementation of most popular sites (with clear transparent arguments, nothing subjective.) Just not sure when I have time for it.




To better understand the provably fair mechanism, really do read my article http://dicesites.com/provably-fair

and exactly here is the problem as I see it. each player wants to have fun and enjoy the game. but if a player needs to do this procedure for each bet as you described then there is no fun anymore and most of the players will not do it.


if there are better and easier ways to offer provably fair options for a player (handling wise) I am
asking myself why are casino OPs not offering it?

again if a player has to do even the more convenient procedure IMO most of the players
will not do it ( reason for this I explained above)

to be frank I have no clue of this provably fair code. I am a fan of provably fair and it is a must for
every casino to offer it in the best and easiest way for all players.

maybe a stupid question but I was never afraid to ask questions
lets say I play at casino xyz and bet at whatever game they offer. I want to enjoy the game
and will not check or verify each bet if I was cheated or not. now lets say I lost or I have
a bad feeling because the game had strange outcomes (each game can have strange outcomes and it doesn't mean it was a cheat) isn't there a provably fair option that I can check all the bets (history) I did in this session if they were provably fair? I mean after my betting session
if this exists please point me to it to read about it and if it doesn't exist it IMO it should be invented

Like I said:

In the case of NS BJ, the implementation is really bad indeed. Like most BJ games TBH, generally dice sites have better provably fair implementations. You have to do this to make sure it's fair:

1) Open provably fair tab
2) Copy "Next Hash" (note: you cannot easily copy this, you must be using browser developer tools to do this)
3) Change client seed (note: they do not generate it in the browser, but they give it in an AJAX request together with serverseed hash, this is bad and you -must- change clientseed every bet because of this)
4) Make the bet
5) Open provably fair tab
6) Compare "Deck Hash" with copied hash
7) Go to external verifier and fill in all details

And you must do this for every bet.

They can do the following things to improve the implementation:
1. Allow easy copying of "serverseed hash"
2. Generate clientseed in browser after receiving the next serverseed hash
3. External verifier shouldn't include resources from NS
4. Ideally: use nonce-method which allows easier verifying

nobody claimed that "all" of the gambling sites are provably fair. i am not saying what you are talking about (nitrogen sports) is fair or not, because i have never heard about it since now.
anyways you should always check provably fair yourself or read what others write as feedback if you don't know how to do it.

I see u guys said it is not rigged, I don't think so. How can you guys explain nitrogen sports' provably fair blackjack, too many people complain  their blackjack is 100% rigged, when you get 20, dealer gets 21, when you get 19, dealer gets 20 or 21, when you get 18, dealer gets 19,20,21, when you get 17, dealer gets 18,19,20,21, i estimate players have 20% winning rate on their bj, which is highly suspicious, although nitrogen claims it is a provably fair blackjack.

Do not confuse provably "fair" with edge. A site can have 99% house edge, and still be provably fair.

The correct implementation of provably fair means the game is not rigged.

They are quite fair as long as you can verify and understand how to do it.
Every trusted gambling site offering verifier tab to check whenever your bet being cheated or not

they are not rigged, at least not all of them. the fact that we can not win in gambling and especially dice which is the most popular way of gambling, is that these games are designed this way so that we lose at some point and never keep on winning. otherwise the site would go bankrupt.

They are all "rigged" as they need to make money. Usually house edge is around 1% or sometimes less.
But provably fair ensures that the house can't "cheat". They cant give you wins on low amounts then losses on high amounts or anything like that. Its all mathematically proven and are therefore fair.

I know provably fair is FAIR..
Somehow i feel like doesnt trust this system  ,
even with 88% winning chance. I can bust it with 1st roll.. morever my 1st deposit and all it in. Maybe luck not by my side.

Im never trust all dice is fair
some of dice use fake provably fair

It is important to realize that provably fair only works when you actually verify your bet outcomes. Some implementations are worse than others too. If you like to understand the basics of provably fair I advise to read my article: http://dicesites.com/provably-fair

There has been at least 2 clear cases of rigging the players even with provably fair, both at scam site dicebitco.in. This was detected because some people actually verified their bet outcomes. If no one verified their bet outcomes, no one would ever know.

The games are as fair as the algorithm used, which can be  trusted and proved. Nevertheless, there's and edge in every game, which is only the safeguard used by all the casinos to protect them from losing if by chance a player has a winning streak.

try sites that have been proven to pay out to people for at least a while.

(PREFERRED) safedice has been a good place for me, and admin has always been very active.(active mods)

primedice has a lot of activity and full of users as well and do payout as well (lots of active mods)

the other one i go to a lot is coinichiwa but they have been slow at responding to things. (inactive mods)

They can't be rigged if they have a properly implemented nonce like primedice or magicaldice.

What can happen is the site running out with the funds, but if you just deposit and play in trusted places you shouldn't have any problem.

Just don't play in flash casinos without provably fair systems because they will change the odds in their favor (flash roulette, bj or slots)

Can you really trust all the dice and gambling sites with provably fair games? Or are they all rigged?