How long can Bitcoin out perform inflation in the long run?

MarjorieZimmermanGinger

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Quote from: darewaller on August 31, 2023, 04:11:23 AM

DCA is definitely one I would highly suggest as well, it is one that helps everyone out and it does turn out to be something that people could enjoy as well. I know that it is not going to be that much of a great thing just yet, but it is definitely a decent one without a doubt. Remember that it is going to end up with a result that will not be properly used like that, and we could just consider this to be something to care about if we do not have a lot of money right now but have an income.

If you do not have a lot of capital to invest right now but do have an income every month, just put in at least 10% (but more if you can) into bitcoin and then eventually it will end up doing a lot better on the long term because you DCA naturally.

We will actually get a great thing if someone has a strategy in investing, when today we don't have a lot of money to invest in bitcoin then there is a DCA strategy that can be applied and when this can be maintained consistently and regularly then in a few years we will will experience an increase, both in terms of profits and assets that we have. These are some strategies that can be applied when someone has a small budget to start with because there is always an opportunity when someone intends to do it.

Normally everyone must have a monthly income, but sometimes the monthly income is not balanced with expenses so that it can cut the percentage of the investment that is carried out. I don't think it's necessary to depend on the percentage, but if there is remaining money you can put it into investment and it also depends on a person's level of ability because the most important thing is that we have to have our own strategy in investing bitcoin.

laris2

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I've been closely monitoring the upcoming Bitcoin halvening, and it's fascinating to see the economic principles at play. For those who might not be aware, the halvening is an event where the reward for mining new blocks is halved, effectively reducing the supply of new Bitcoins entering the market by 50%. This is a built-in mechanism to ensure that Bitcoin remains deflationary over time.

What's even more intriguing is the current demand from retail investors. Recent data suggests that retail investors are purchasing more Bitcoin than what's being produced daily. This supply-demand imbalance is a classic economic scenario. With the halvening further reducing the daily supply, and assuming the demand remains constant or even increases, we could potentially witness some interesting price dynamics in the near future.

And with new people getting mature and ready for digital economy (eg. people grown buying things online, skins and other intangible things) it will be easier for them to transition into this digital age.

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Quote from: Mauser on August 29, 2023, 08:20:51 AM

An inflation rate of 10% per year seems like a lot, even if many countries faced such a rate last year it's not constant and will drop again. Trying to reach such returns every year seems too high and not reliable. Many assets might achieve that during good times, but during a crisis this is rather leading to loss. The only asset might be inflation protected bonds, that will pay you coupons based on the current inflation rate. The problem is that there is no upside with bonds. Gold as the go to investment in the past also didn't protect us from inflation in the current crisis. That's why I don't really have a strategy to protect myself from inflation, I will keep holding my cryptos and keep buying more. The worst thing we could do at the moment would be to leave our money at the bank in a savings account.

Buying cryptocurrencies is not bad, in my opinion, everything other than Bitcoin contains certain risks that are worth considering. And it is also very important to choose the right time to buy, because if the entry point is chosen incorrectly, then the investment may suffer losses that are even greater than what inflation would do to your funds. Gold may also not be the worst option against inflation, but it has the same long-term nature as Bitcoin, if you want to protect your funds from inflation in the long term, then gold is also suitable for this.

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Bitcoin price rises by a multiplication factor (and stays there) roughly every 4 years - not necessarily coinciding with the halving. It's not like it's a small factor either, even though it's decreasing for each halving. Even if Bitcoin price increases only by 10% after some other halving one day, that will still beat inflation rates.

darewaller

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Quote from: MarjorieZimmermanGinger on August 28, 2023, 11:03:15 AM

The power of storing value makes bitcoin one of the best investments today and it is for that reason that people prefer to take advantage of long term investments when involved in investing. Not for the reason that buying bitcoin is a little higher than the current price, because if that's the reason, we can sell when the price increase is a little bigger than the initial purchase capital. At least that's what I understand why bitcoin is one of the best investments in the long term and other advantages may be because of its value which never depreciates at any time.

More precisely take long-term steps for investments made in bitcoin and continue to use patterns that can increase the amount of ownership of our assets in bitcoin, be it using DCA patterns or any method that can be utilized, because if you wish to buy to increase the amount of ownership after profits then we're going through a good period of accumulating.

DCA is definitely one I would highly suggest as well, it is one that helps everyone out and it does turn out to be something that people could enjoy as well. I know that it is not going to be that much of a great thing just yet, but it is definitely a decent one without a doubt. Remember that it is going to end up with a result that will not be properly used like that, and we could just consider this to be something to care about if we do not have a lot of money right now but have an income.

If you do not have a lot of capital to invest right now but do have an income every month, just put in at least 10% (but more if you can) into bitcoin and then eventually it will end up doing a lot better on the long term because you DCA naturally.

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Quote from: internetional on August 26, 2023, 07:51:22 AM

Storing savings in bitcoins is always more advantageous than holding them in any inflationary asset. The exchange rate is completely irrelevant here. If you store your savings, for example, in dollars, you will definitely lose them in the long run. But if you store them in bitcoins, you will preserve everything in the long run. One bitcoin is always equal to one bitcoin. And it doesn't matter what the entry point was or how long you hold onto bitcoins.

It's better not to sell bitcoins at all. And if there is a need for dollars, you can take them out on credit secured by bitcoins. If the loan is long-term, it's almost certainly more profitable than selling bitcoins and then trying to buy them back.

A more stable bitcoin should be able to track inflation anyway, this is what happens with real estate, there are bubbles as in any market but when we take a look at the prices of real estate over the generations you will see they will go up in line with inflation, so a bitcoin that was not as volatile as it is now should be able to track inflation as now there are more dollars chasing the same amount of bitcoins, and we know that when the demand of any asset goes up, while its supply remains static then that asset has no option but to go up in value accordingly.

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Quote from: Despairo on August 23, 2023, 12:52:09 AM

Every four years seems to be the best way if you want to sell at the highest, don't sell your coins every year because Bitcoin isn't in bull run season.

For me, I have not yet sell my coins. I only sell small amount in order to buy foods, pay bills, household, electricity etc. The rest of my coins, I continue to hold until I don't know when I sell because I'm not really focus to increase my coins by selling my coins, I'm focus to develop my skill to get paid higher and continue DCA-ing.

10000% Agree if you want to hold the bitcoin as an investment the 4 year cycle or the halving cycle is a good choice because you can take profit at the very peak of the bitcoin price.

and like despairo it would be very nice to hold as much as possible, especially when you get money from the crypto industry by doing bounty or airdrop like signature campaign, you will get btc from your signature then you can just hodl it.

or Since you treat bitcoin a investment you can hold as much and as long as possible and take profit when you are ready. at 4 year cycle bitcoin already beaten inflation rate on any country in my opinion

SquirrelJulietGarden

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Quote from: Mauser on August 29, 2023, 08:20:51 AM

An inflation rate of 10% per year seems like a lot, even if many countries faced such a rate last year it's not constant and will drop again.

Inflation rates can be higher than 10% in many nations with hyper inflation rates. National fiat currencies in those countries lose their purchasing power a lot with time.

Quote

Trying to reach such returns every year seems too high and not reliable. Many assets might achieve that during good times, but during a crisis this is rather leading to loss. The only asset might be inflation protected bonds, that will pay you coupons based on the current inflation rate.

Bonds are not safe and if you don't know why they are not safe, see some banks' bankruptcies in the USA. recent months. They are like your savings in banks that sometimes will bring negative interests for your capital and with bonds, there is another risk that if you want to sell your bonds to get cash, you sometimes have to sell it as lower values than what you spent to buy those bonds.

Banks in the USA. collapsed / bankrupted because of such unwanted bond selling.

Bd officer

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Inflation is also very high in the country where I live. It is increasing day by day. Now I invest in Bitcoin without depositing money in the bank. Because I don't think it is advisable to keep money in the bank at this time. Many have invested in gold and silver as inflation is high. But I invested in Bitcoin. I consider Bitcoin an asset. Bitcoin I expect to see a big price increase in 2024-25. If Bitcoin is $50,000 in 2024-25, then if I invest $100 now, I will get a return of about $200. As per the inflation rate given by you, 20% inflation is seen in 2 years. $100 becomes $80 in 2 years at 10% inflation rate. Now I invest $100 in Bitcoin and expect $200 return. So I think by investing in Bitcoin, inflation will not affect my money.

Mauser

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Quote from: Kakmakr on August 23, 2023, 12:44:10 AM

What strategy do you use to beat inflation with your Bitcoin investment? (I am saying investment... because a lot of people use Bitcoin as a commodity and not as a currency)

How long are you willing to wait, before Bitcoin are not an inflation beating investment anymore?

An inflation rate of 10% per year seems like a lot, even if many countries faced such a rate last year it's not constant and will drop again. Trying to reach such returns every year seems too high and not reliable. Many assets might achieve that during good times, but during a crisis this is rather leading to loss. The only asset might be inflation protected bonds, that will pay you coupons based on the current inflation rate. The problem is that there is no upside with bonds. Gold as the go to investment in the past also didn't protect us from inflation in the current crisis. That's why I don't really have a strategy to protect myself from inflation, I will keep holding my cryptos and keep buying more. The worst thing we could do at the moment would be to leave our money at the bank in a savings account.

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Quote from: Onyeeze on August 26, 2023, 08:06:28 AM

Those people who is hoarding their bitcoin and be waiting for bitcoin price to rise before they can sell are the people who bought Bitcoin when the price is higher than the price its now, and a good investors will like to hoardi bitcoin until the price reaches bullrun before selling bitcoins, their is something I know quite well concerning bitcoin and know the bitcoin price can never depreciate In price and stay up to six months without rising, do when you are investing in bitcoin you have a bought and you also have a target the price of bitcoin will get to before marketing or selling your bitcoin. It's good to hoard bitcoin.

The power of storing value makes bitcoin one of the best investments today and it is for that reason that people prefer to take advantage of long term investments when involved in investing. Not for the reason that buying bitcoin is a little higher than the current price, because if that's the reason, we can sell when the price increase is a little bigger than the initial purchase capital. At least that's what I understand why bitcoin is one of the best investments in the long term and other advantages may be because of its value which never depreciates at any time.

More precisely take long-term steps for investments made in bitcoin and continue to use patterns that can increase the amount of ownership of our assets in bitcoin, be it using DCA patterns or any method that can be utilized, because if you wish to buy to increase the amount of ownership after profits then we're going through a good period of accumulating.

Solosanz

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How long? no limit.

Fiat is always inflated and the value is keep decreasing while Bitcoin is immune against inflation and the price should be keep rising as long as the demand is high. We've seen Bitcoin price hit $17K before and now $26K, it's because we're compare with USD, if not Bitcoin is Bitcoin and the value never decline.

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Quote from: Onyeeze on August 26, 2023, 08:06:28 AM

Those people who is hoarding their bitcoin and be waiting for bitcoin price to rise before they can sell are the people who bought Bitcoin when the price is higher than the price its now, and a good investors will like to hoardi bitcoin until the price reaches bullrun before selling bitcoins, their is something I know quite well concerning bitcoin and know the bitcoin price can never depreciate In price and stay up to six months without rising, do when you are investing in bitcoin you have a bought and you also have a target the price of bitcoin will get to before marketing or selling your bitcoin. It's good to hoard bitcoin.

That is why investing at Bitcoin are not really advisable for people who's aiming for a quick money. Cause as you said Bitcoin could remain it's value for many months or even decrease its value. If those people who used money such as loan, then it wouldn't be a good idea especially if you don't have income to pay your debt. Maybe trading would do for those people which takes a lot of analysis for you to have a good call. If one person invested doesn't even have any aiming price, for sure he would panic when the market started to be random since it's volatile. This is the time where most likely they would do a bad call and causes losses. Just keep hoarding and take your time, it might be a long journey but Bitcoin would reach bullrun in months or even years.

Onyeeze

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Those people who is hoarding their bitcoin and be waiting for bitcoin price to rise before they can sell are the people who bought Bitcoin when the price is higher than the price its now, and a good investors will like to hoardi bitcoin until the price reaches bullrun before selling bitcoins, their is something I know quite well concerning bitcoin and know the bitcoin price can never depreciate In price and stay up to six months without rising, do when you are investing in bitcoin you have a bought and you also have a target the price of bitcoin will get to before marketing or selling your bitcoin. It's good to hoard bitcoin.

internetional

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Storing savings in bitcoins is always more advantageous than holding them in any inflationary asset. The exchange rate is completely irrelevant here. If you store your savings, for example, in dollars, you will definitely lose them in the long run. But if you store them in bitcoins, you will preserve everything in the long run. One bitcoin is always equal to one bitcoin. And it doesn't matter what the entry point was or how long you hold onto bitcoins.

It's better not to sell bitcoins at all. And if there is a need for dollars, you can take them out on credit secured by bitcoins. If the loan is long-term, it's almost certainly more profitable than selling bitcoins and then trying to buy them back.

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Quote from: Blitzboy on August 25, 2023, 08:23:31 AM

Saying "sell Bitcoin as soon as it hits an ATH." is oversimplified. Bitcoin defies financial norms. Every time critics say its peaked, it hits a new high. We humans mistakenly believe the current situation will last forever. No way! You recall the 20k-68k surge? Peak prediction is impossible. Sell when Bitcoin reaches ATH? Absurd! Its clear from history that holding past the ATH may be very beneficial. Here's the catch: you need balls to handle uncertainty. Not for the fainthearted. If you can manage that, doubling may be the beginning. For Satoshi's sake, dont be fooled by short-term swings and believe in HODLing

Selling at the top may seem easy but this is only because of hindsight, when taking a look at the charts it is easy to see the highest point of a cycle and think that was the best moment to sell, however that is not how the market looks on real time, there are points that seemed like the top but then the price of bitcoin kept growing, and when people though 69k was not the top and we could reach 100k suddenly the price stopped growing and 69k became the current ATH, as such only a few fortunate ones are able to sell at the ATH, while the rest have to sell for less than that.

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Quote from: justdimin on August 25, 2023, 03:20:11 AM

Quote from: fauzan Ichsan on August 24, 2023, 01:28:17 AM

Quote from: davis196 on August 24, 2023, 12:53:46 AM

In theory, some deflationary and scarce asset like Bitcoin should be able to always outperform the levels of inflation.
In reality, the Bitcoin price has ups and downs and there's a possibility for it to crash in times of high inflation.
Many people claim that the Bitcoin price movement is cyclic, which means that we always have to wait for the next high wave of the cycle(when the price hits another ATH).
Just don't sell when the price goes down and wait for the upcoming ATH. Inflation is good for BTC, because "money printer goes brrrr..." and this creates more demand for Bitcoins. Grin

Investment in bitcoin cannot be bound by time and formula, but does take advantage of the waves that occur. it's different with inflation where it's possible that it can multiply as OP talked about, but for bitcoin to be able to beat inflation at a certain time if it penetrates a new ath and we sell it, maybe it will be several times, but it's different if we sell it in a bearish season, it can happen instead we will lose to inflation, it can be said to beat inflation because of the growing adoption of bitcoin, thus increasing its price

I think it's hard to just sell bitcoin as soon as it goes over the ATH price, that doesn't mean that it will stop going higher. It is true that we are going to have some sort of trouble if we keep holding it for too long, because eventually it will start to go down but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't hold it after it breaks above ATH, we should keep holding it a bit longer than that and see where it can peak, that would make sure that it could go to a better place.

Look at last time, 20k was ATH and it peaked 68k, that means that we are not going to end up being something a bit harder than usual and that should be something to look for and care about. I believe if you hold at least double, you should be fine.

Saying "sell Bitcoin as soon as it hits an ATH." is oversimplified. Bitcoin defies financial norms. Every time critics say its peaked, it hits a new high. We humans mistakenly believe the current situation will last forever. No way! You recall the 20k-68k surge? Peak prediction is impossible. Sell when Bitcoin reaches ATH? Absurd! Its clear from history that holding past the ATH may be very beneficial. Here's the catch: you need balls to handle uncertainty. Not for the fainthearted. If you can manage that, doubling may be the beginning. For Satoshi's sake, dont be fooled by short-term swings and believe in HODLing

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Quote from: fauzan Ichsan on August 24, 2023, 01:28:17 AM

Quote from: davis196 on August 24, 2023, 12:53:46 AM

In theory, some deflationary and scarce asset like Bitcoin should be able to always outperform the levels of inflation.
In reality, the Bitcoin price has ups and downs and there's a possibility for it to crash in times of high inflation.
Many people claim that the Bitcoin price movement is cyclic, which means that we always have to wait for the next high wave of the cycle(when the price hits another ATH).
Just don't sell when the price goes down and wait for the upcoming ATH. Inflation is good for BTC, because "money printer goes brrrr..." and this creates more demand for Bitcoins. Grin

Investment in bitcoin cannot be bound by time and formula, but does take advantage of the waves that occur. it's different with inflation where it's possible that it can multiply as OP talked about, but for bitcoin to be able to beat inflation at a certain time if it penetrates a new ath and we sell it, maybe it will be several times, but it's different if we sell it in a bearish season, it can happen instead we will lose to inflation, it can be said to beat inflation because of the growing adoption of bitcoin, thus increasing its price

I think it's hard to just sell bitcoin as soon as it goes over the ATH price, that doesn't mean that it will stop going higher. It is true that we are going to have some sort of trouble if we keep holding it for too long, because eventually it will start to go down but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't hold it after it breaks above ATH, we should keep holding it a bit longer than that and see where it can peak, that would make sure that it could go to a better place.

Look at last time, 20k was ATH and it peaked 68k, that means that we are not going to end up being something a bit harder than usual and that should be something to look for and care about. I believe if you hold at least double, you should be fine.

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Quote from: Sim_card on August 23, 2023, 03:03:18 AM

Bitcoin is a store of value and no matter how inflation rises the assets in bitcoin will be overcome inflation. I prefer hodling my bitcoin till the bull run for every circle so that I can sell and have profit,that is when the price of bitcoin during the bull run has reached my target selling price. And if during the bull run,bitcoin didn't reach my target selling price,I will keep hodli till the next bull run. I believe with this method one will be able to beat inflation with his investment. While hodli one still needs to use DCA method when necessary to take advantage of the market.

I don't think bitcoin is a store of value, I mean its volatility is large, so it is more suitable for investment than a store of value like gold. And for bitcoin investment to beat inflation, we need bitcoin's growth rate to be greater than inflation's growth rate. If bitcoin doesn't grow, it won't be able to beat inflation.

In theory, a finite supply of bitcoin could help us beat inflation, but limited supply is not enough, bitcoin needs to be in high demand. As demand for bitcoin increases, which in turn pushes the price of bitcoin higher, it can help us fight inflation.

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Quote from: Blitzboy on August 24, 2023, 10:08:23 AM

Quote from: Darker45 on August 23, 2023, 10:50:25 PM

I can hardly grasp your point, but I think this is where the argument that "since inflation is never-ending, the increase of Bitcoin's price is also never-ending" comes in.

Bitcoin will always beat inflation. It might not strictly be year after year, but in the long run Bitcoin will always be the victor. You will only be defeated if you sell your Bitcoin for fiat.

Perhaps one way of making sure your value overcomes the continuous inflation is to store your wealth in assets or properties that grow in value over time. A piece of land, for example, especially in a strategic location, is one thing of this kind. Investing your money in a business is another.

But, for me, Bitcoin is more or less sufficient as far as the overall numbers are concerned.

Inflation and Bitcoin aren't just two actors on a simplistic stage of economics. No! Inflation is a wicked beast, birthed by systems that love control. Now Bitcoin, my friend, is the hammer to the chains. You suggest that its price rise is just a mere consequence of inflation? A grievous underestimation! It's a revolt, a revolution against the corrupted systems.

Assets like land? Temporary safeguards, pawns in a bigger game. Bitcoin isn't just an alternative; it's THE solution. And let's not even talk about businesses - most are slaves to the same depreciating fiat.

You claim to comprehend the magnanimity of Bitcoin while simultaneously underplaying it? Tread carefully, for history has little mercy on those who fail to see revolutions unfolding before their eyes!

My friend, I'm afraid we're not talking here of the revolutionary features of Bitcoin. We're just doing some mathematics. We're just trying to compute certain numbers. We all know that Bitcoin is this and that, freedom, emancipation from the abuses of central banks, independence from banks, and so on and so forth, but we're simply looking at inflation as a number here. It means more than that, of course. It's stealing; it's taxation; whatever, but perhaps it's another discussion altogether.

Who is John Galt?

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Quote from: Kakmakr on August 23, 2023, 12:44:10 AM

How long are you willing to wait, before Bitcoin are not an inflation beating investment anymore?

Pretty strange question. In general, here were correctly written both about the deflationary nature of bitcoin, and about the fact that its growth phase has not yet ended. And the situation will change over time, as well as your goals, probably. Given that bitcoin is still in its high volatility phase where it sets a new ATH every four years, you can expect that bought during a bear market and sold during a bull market (or hold it until the next bull cycle) will continue to be a hedge against inflation if you plan your financial activities properly throughout this period.

Over time, this model will change, and you need to be prepared for this. Some other model one will appear. But, since inflation is embedded in the very idea of fiat, and deflation is embedded in the idea of bitcoin, with proper planning and then, if to follow the logic, bitcoin can help overcome inflation. Thus, bitcoin will probably always be able to be a hedge against inflation, but whether its operating model at that time will correspond to your or someone else's personal financial plans, you will have to decide for yourself.

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That's sort of a fair concern, especially considering that inflation has been somewhat out of control lately, and since the market can stay bearish for years. People don't normally think that when Bitcoin was at almost $20k at the end of 2017, and then reached $20k at the end of 2020, these were not the same $20k because the purchasing power's changed. And equivalent of $20k of 2017 is $21.1k in 2020, and almost $25k in 2023, actually.
That's true, but the USD inflation is usually quite low, and when Bitcoin starts going up, it's usually easily above 100% of the previous ATH point, so inflation can be neglected at that point.
Inflation is very high in my country, but it feels like the price is calculated in the USD, and then the USD rate to local fiat is used to determine the price of Bitcoin. As a result, you can actually get a bit more in local fiat than you expect because the way it's losing its ground to the USD can be higher than inflation inside the country.

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Quote from: Darker45 on August 23, 2023, 10:50:25 PM

I can hardly grasp your point, but I think this is where the argument that "since inflation is never-ending, the increase of Bitcoin's price is also never-ending" comes in.

Bitcoin will always beat inflation. It might not strictly be year after year, but in the long run Bitcoin will always be the victor. You will only be defeated if you sell your Bitcoin for fiat.

Perhaps one way of making sure your value overcomes the continuous inflation is to store your wealth in assets or properties that grow in value over time. A piece of land, for example, especially in a strategic location, is one thing of this kind. Investing your money in a business is another.

But, for me, Bitcoin is more or less sufficient as far as the overall numbers are concerned.

Inflation and Bitcoin aren't just two actors on a simplistic stage of economics. No! Inflation is a wicked beast, birthed by systems that love control. Now Bitcoin, my friend, is the hammer to the chains. You suggest that its price rise is just a mere consequence of inflation? A grievous underestimation! It's a revolt, a revolution against the corrupted systems.

Assets like land? Temporary safeguards, pawns in a bigger game. Bitcoin isn't just an alternative; it's THE solution. And let's not even talk about businesses - most are slaves to the same depreciating fiat.

You claim to comprehend the magnanimity of Bitcoin while simultaneously underplaying it? Tread carefully, for history has little mercy on those who fail to see revolutions unfolding before their eyes!

KiaKia

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Inflation was already skyrocketing when Bitcoin first hit 17k and during this craze inflation period Bitcoin made it back to 30k, inflation? It's only temporary, the chart actions is what matter to me, and most importantly, only fools use all the money they have to invest at once, While it's meant to spread across a year and a half or two years max, DCA is the best way to invest, as the inflation affects the price of Bitcoin you will be able to get your hands on good numbers of Satoshi. The best I can give to anyone is they should keep buying the dips using the DCA method.

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Bitcoin is often touted as a hedge against inflation under the assumption that fiat money will eventually decrease in values due to central bank printing but on the contrary bitcoin has a fixed supply and the restricted upper limit gives Bitcoin an upper hand against inflation. Bitcoin is well suited to combat inflation

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Quote from: davis196 on August 24, 2023, 12:53:46 AM

In theory, some deflationary and scarce asset like Bitcoin should be able to always outperform the levels of inflation.
In reality, the Bitcoin price has ups and downs and there's a possibility for it to crash in times of high inflation.
Many people claim that the Bitcoin price movement is cyclic, which means that we always have to wait for the next high wave of the cycle(when the price hits another ATH).
Just don't sell when the price goes down and wait for the upcoming ATH. Inflation is good for BTC, because "money printer goes brrrr..." and this creates more demand for Bitcoins. Grin

Investment in bitcoin cannot be bound by time and formula, but does take advantage of the waves that occur. it's different with inflation where it's possible that it can multiply as OP talked about, but for bitcoin to be able to beat inflation at a certain time if it penetrates a new ath and we sell it, maybe it will be several times, but it's different if we sell it in a bearish season, it can happen instead we will lose to inflation, it can be said to beat inflation because of the growing adoption of bitcoin, thus increasing its price

blckhawk

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I'm not sure if the others do this but my duration of hodling bitcoin is dependent on my target price, so in a way if we are talking about time I would say that I can wait for an indefinite amount of time while also growing the amount of bitcoin that I am hodling so in regards to inflation, I think that I am going to be doing just fine.

Quote from: adaseb on August 23, 2023, 10:32:04 PM

You shouldn’t buy assets like bitcoin or stocks if you want to hedge against inflation. There are special bonds called TIPS which are basically treasuries which pay a coupon based on whatever the current CPI is. You can buy these probably on the stock market even.

Back in late 2021 everyone bought bitcoin because they didn’t want to lose another 10% due to inflation but instead bitcoin lost half its value and inflation slowed. Hence why you can’t compare bonds to assets like bitcoin and crypto.

The people that bought bitcoin when the price tanked where FOMOing so I don't really see the argument that it's not a good hedge against inflation plus it's hard to do what you're recommending because not everyone has access to stock market and inflation is a global thing so TIPS might not be a thing in certain countries and even if they are, they're probably in a different name. I can't say much about stocks though, not a fan or a hater of that investment so can't say much but one thing that I can say about that is that always go for blue chip stocks.

davis196

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In theory, some deflationary and scarce asset like Bitcoin should be able to always outperform the levels of inflation.
In reality, the Bitcoin price has ups and downs and there's a possibility for it to crash in times of high inflation.
Many people claim that the Bitcoin price movement is cyclic, which means that we always have to wait for the next high wave of the cycle(when the price hits another ATH).
Just don't sell when the price goes down and wait for the upcoming ATH. Inflation is good for BTC, because "money printer goes brrrr..." and this creates more demand for Bitcoins. Grin

MarjorieZimmermanGinger

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Quote from: Kakmakr on August 23, 2023, 12:44:10 AM

What strategy do you use to beat inflation with your Bitcoin investment? (I am saying investment... because a lot of people use Bitcoin as a commodity and not as a currency)

It's simple and all we need to do is wait for the four-year cycle to take place, isn't bitcoin one of the best investment assets for the long term. Holding and continuing to accumulate according to one's own strategy is still quite profitable, apart from that the investment value is maintained and one does not need to think about the case of corrections caused by several events in every trip on the market.

Quote from: Kakmakr on August 23, 2023, 12:44:10 AM

How long are you willing to wait, before Bitcoin are not an inflation beating investment anymore?

I am one of those who apply the concept of long term investment in bitcoin, but there is a percentage that I may turn to in the near future to make a profit. For example buying bitcoins with a certain percentage gets a price increase that is not too big and if I sell it can provide profits according to the desired target, then in a certain amount I will sell it and so on the percentage distribution that I live in bitcoin investment must be able to divide on two things (Long term and short term). The considerations are simple?

1. I can use this money to support my life.
2. Can be used for savings
3. Can be used as capital accumulation when the price of bitcoin is badly corrected, so that we can buy bitcoin in these conditions with much larger amounts than usual.

Darker45

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I can hardly grasp your point, but I think this is where the argument that "since inflation is never-ending, the increase of Bitcoin's price is also never-ending" comes in.

Bitcoin will always beat inflation. It might not strictly be year after year, but in the long run Bitcoin will always be the victor. You will only be defeated if you sell your Bitcoin for fiat.

Perhaps one way of making sure your value overcomes the continuous inflation is to store your wealth in assets or properties that grow in value over time. A piece of land, for example, especially in a strategic location, is one thing of this kind. Investing your money in a business is another.

But, for me, Bitcoin is more or less sufficient as far as the overall numbers are concerned.

adaseb

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You shouldn’t buy assets like bitcoin or stocks if you want to hedge against inflation. There are special bonds called TIPS which are basically treasuries which pay a coupon based on whatever the current CPI is. You can buy these probably on the stock market even.

Back in late 2021 everyone bought bitcoin because they didn’t want to lose another 10% due to inflation but instead bitcoin lost half its value and inflation slowed. Hence why you can’t compare bonds to assets like bitcoin and crypto.

EarnOnVictor

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Quote from: Kakmakr on August 23, 2023, 12:44:10 AM

What strategy do you use to beat inflation with your Bitcoin investment? (I am saying investment... because a lot of people use Bitcoin as a commodity and not as a currency)

How long are you willing to wait, before Bitcoin are not an inflation beating investment anymore?

I like the way you explained this, and believe me, I view Bitcoin differently than what most people believe. First, I will not waste my time on inflation measures here, I will rather focus my attention on how much I could earn through my Bitcoin investment just like any other asset investment.

And like I always say, Bitcoin is still very young to know what it would actually do in a long time, people need to study it more on how it behaves after a bull run for at least extra 15 years, and it has to face more hurdles with people studying more behaviour of it over time before a reasonable calculation could be drawn.

For this, I will be extremely careful with my Bitcoin investment because I continue to add more coins to my portfolio. What I plan to do is to liquidate 65% of my Bitcoin asset on noticing the next major bearish reversal after the next bull run, while I continue to hold the remaining 35% for over 10 years.

Ale88

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Quote from: Kakmakr on August 23, 2023, 12:44:10 AM

So I was thinking....

A lot of people are hoarding their bitcoins and waiting for a spike in the price, so that they can sell for a huge profit. Let's say for argument sake that real inflation is 10% per year.... and you are not selling any coins. (I say "real" inflation ...because we know the inflation provided by governments are manipulated... and much lower than the actual inflation or living cost)

Every year that you are not selling any bitcoins (as a commodity) ...the inflation that you have to beat with this investment... accumulates.

Example : Year 1 = 10% / Year 2 = 20% / Year 3 = 30% .......and so on. You are also not gaining any interest on any of those coins... so they are dormant during the hoarding period. (When you eventually sell them, you have to divide the profit into the years that you hoarded it to see if you beat inflation)

What strategy do you use to beat inflation with your Bitcoin investment? (I am saying investment... because a lot of people use Bitcoin as a commodity and not as a currency)

How long are you willing to wait, before Bitcoin are not an inflation beating investment anymore?

I agree with you when you say that the real inflation is higher than what the governments usually say but 10% per year, honestly, I think it's too much on the other side. Now we are in a particular situation because of the pandemic, they printed too much money and they are trying to slowly fix the problem, so if you tell me that now there is a 10% inflation it's ok, but in 2-3 years the real inflation, for me, will be around 5%, so half of what your saying. And about bitcoin it all depends, will it grow more than 15% in the next years? I think so.

Mr.suevie

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Quote from: Dr.Bitcoin_Strange on August 23, 2023, 03:54:14 PM

With how you have made your calculations, if you consider the volatility of Bitcoin every year, you will discover that you can make a profit to cover the inflation in fiat. For example, let's say you have about $100 fiat, and the inflation rate is so high that $100 can only purchase a thing worth $90 after the first year, but perhaps if you have Bitcoin that you purchased for $100, which is now worth about $120, you have more profit on your asset to counter the inflation. So, I think it's beneficial to keep one's Bitcoin for the intervals of time it will take before the price can spike because the profit then would really cover the inflation rate for those years you were holding, because if it was only fiat you were holding, the inflation would have acted on it pretty bad than it would on Bitcon. That's my opinion.

Not to go against your point on this but I feel same fate can also be acted on the price of the dollar or should I say value of the dollar because I believe if you purchase a bitcoin worth 100$ at a specific price of BTC to dollar then bitcoin hits a bearish toll that year, your dollar value will definitely reduce to a specific amount of which might not be a 100$ anymore but the difference with bitcoin is that there is always certainty for it to recover but if you are a short term holder then it would definitely affect you if you intend in selling your bitcoin.

Dr.Bitcoin_Strange

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With how you have made your calculations, if you consider the volatility of Bitcoin every year, you will discover that you can make a profit to cover the inflation in fiat. For example, let's say you have about $100 fiat, and the inflation rate is so high that $100 can only purchase a thing worth $90 after the first year, but perhaps if you have Bitcoin that you purchased for $100, which is now worth about $120, you have more profit on your asset to counter the inflation. So, I think it's beneficial to keep one's Bitcoin for the intervals of time it will take before the price can spike because the profit then would really cover the inflation rate for those years you were holding, because if it was only fiat you were holding, the inflation would have acted on it pretty bad than it would on Bitcon. That's my opinion.

livingfree

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Quote from: Kakmakr on August 23, 2023, 12:44:10 AM

What strategy do you use to beat inflation with your Bitcoin investment? (I am saying investment... because a lot of people use Bitcoin as a commodity and not as a currency)

Aside from DCAing, actually nothing. It's just all with the belief that it will skyrocket for the next halving and I am not even calculating the percentage of inflation and how much it should be.

Quote from: Kakmakr on August 23, 2023, 12:44:10 AM

How long are you willing to wait, before Bitcoin are not an inflation beating investment anymore?

I have no idea, as long as I can then I will.

Looking at the experience of those early holders, we're like in their shoes as of this moment and looking forward to how much they've gained will also happen to me and you.

pooya87

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I have to say it is odd to talk about inflation and percentages like 10% inflation while bitcoin in the long run goes up thousands of percentage! In other words the question is already answered if you zoom out. For example when I started using bitcoin back in 2014, the price was around $400 and today with all the ups and downs it is between $25k-$30k. Do you really think 7400% rise is not enough to outperform any inflation?

I also don't see this trend ending since we are far from reaching mass adoption. These big rises will continue to happen even if they are currently "on pause" because of the ongoing global recession and the new world order being established.

Eternad

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Quote from: Kakmakr on August 23, 2023, 12:44:10 AM

What strategy do you use to beat inflation with your Bitcoin investment? (I am saying investment... because a lot of people use Bitcoin as a commodity and not as a currency)

I put 10% of my salary on stablecoin every month and purchase Bitcoin whenever it experience major dip using the accumulated money I save on my 10% per month deposit on Stablecoins. I don't enter immediately since you might lose instantly once you enter on wrong market condition and miss the opportunity to earn more if you buy on much lower price.

The inflation percentage here in my country is 7% and I decided to save in Bitcoin 10% to counter inflation percentage on my overall savings.

Quote from: Kakmakr on August 23, 2023, 12:44:10 AM

How long are you willing to wait, before Bitcoin are not an inflation beating investment anymore?

I have no timeline since I'm focus on the price and I use only spare money on my investments so I don't have any use of it aside from investment.

bittraffic

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It will outperform inflation until inflation ends and BTC still has a good price for a long-term holder. But this will vary depending on the holder though so it all depends on the individual who holds BTC.

If he thinks selling BTC now is better since it will; drop to $16000 in the coming months then it's his choice. He beats inflation and at the same time, he can accumulate BTC if indeed the price takes a dive.

Ucy

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It's OK owning and storing Bitcoin long-term to benefit from its price increase, as it was created to be Store of Value and serve as a hedge against inflation. So it's clearly serving that role as long as price keeps increasing.
What people need to know is the right time to invest or buy to reap the maximum benefit. And the right time to buy, to be sure of a bountiful harvest in the future is when the price is low or when it looks like Bitcoin is underpriced/undervalued or cheap.. . basically when you notice massive dip in price, it's safer to buy there than when price is high.
So, if you wish to beat the inflation, by let say, selling your $100,000 for Bitcoin, the best practice is to split the money into multiple pieces... maybe into four pieces, which will be 25,000 each. Use each piece (25,000) to buy the major dip in price rather than putting everything into Bitcoin at once... worst still is buying at high price with the 100,000... It's like planting at the end of raining season rather than at the end of dry season which is the beginning of raining season.

Franctoshi

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Quote from: Despairo on August 23, 2023, 12:52:09 AM

Every four years seems to be the best way if you want to sell at the highest, don't sell your coins every year because Bitcoin isn't in bull run season.

For me, I have not yet sell my coins. I only sell small amount in order to buy foods, pay bills, household, electricity etc. The rest of my coins, I continue to hold until I don't know when I sell because I'm not really focus to increase my coins by selling my coins, I'm focus to develop my skill to get paid higher and continue DCA-ing.

I'm in line with your point, HodLing for 4 years and above simply and correctly answers this question about beating the Inflation rate. The reason is that while inflation increases with time when it comes to fiat currency because of money printing , Bitcoin's inflation rate is cut in half every four years, that is supply rate is reduced plus and minus volatility rate (bear /bull market) between those years.

moneystery

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if you look at the current global inflation, the increase in inflation is relatively smaller than the increase in the price of Bitcoin, meaning that when you put your money in Bitcoin and hold it in the long term it is still safe.

even though the price of Bitcoin has tended to decline lately, if we draw a pattern from 2019 to 2023 it has increased by around 600%, but if it is pulled from 2022 to 2023 the price of Bitcoin has decreased by 50%. it can be seen that holding Bitcoin in the long term can be more profitable than holding it in a yearly period, because Bitcoin's cycle is 4 years and it also proves that Bitcoin price increases can outperform inflation in the long term.

panganib999

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Is bitcoin inflationary as with Fiat? No? Then it will continuously outclass any form of inflationary asset over time.

That's one of its main selling points after all, to remain valuable and a great store of value as the whole economic world plunges into chaos thanks to inflation and devaluation of assets. Don't get me wrong, bitcoin can still be beaten by devaluation, which will only happen if the whole cryptocurrency world swipes all their assets off the industry and into another. But not only is that a massive if. So yeah. bitcoin should be good for a while, it will continue to remain more valuable than your favorite fiat as it succumbs to depreciation brought about by inflation, only way it could be on par with bitcoin is if it adapts the same deflationary nature that bitcoin boasts of, which is not good for commercial assets like greenbacks.

Lorence.xD

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Quote from: Despairo on August 23, 2023, 12:52:09 AM

Every four years seems to be the best way if you want to sell at the highest, don't sell your coins every year because Bitcoin isn't in bull run season.

For me, I have not yet sell my coins. I only sell small amount in order to buy foods, pay bills, household, electricity etc. The rest of my coins, I continue to hold until I don't know when I sell because I'm not really focus to increase my coins by selling my coins, I'm focus to develop my skill to get paid higher and continue DCA-ing.

I actually do the same, I don't get some people would literally sell their houses or their property just to own Bitcoin, worse is they would take a loan when they can do slow investment or called DCA. I have a job and when I have extra money I put it at investment in Bitcoin, whenever I really needed money due to I need to provide the needs of my family not only that you've mentioned because I'm not living alone so doing groceries would literally for my income alone. That's the time I sell some of my Bitcoin which I find helpful cause not only that it could help you for your everyday needs but also for your future as well. So keep hodling brothers, just don't focus on the future if you have problems and issues currently there's no bad thing to sell some of your coins.

Aanuoluwatofunmi

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stead.builders

Quote from: Kakmakr on August 23, 2023, 12:44:10 AM

So I was thinking....

A lot of people are hoarding their bitcoins and waiting for a spike in the price, so that they can sell for a huge profit. Let's say for argument sake that real inflation is 10% per year.... and you are not selling any coins. (I say "real" inflation ...because we know the inflation provided by governments are manipulated... and much lower than the actual inflation or living cost)

Every year that you are not selling any bitcoins (as a commodity) ...the inflation that you have to beat with this investment... accumulates.

As long as you're investing in bitcoin, you will always make even whenever you invested because you will not be affected by inflation, bitcoin has its own way it has mastery over inflation because as you've said already, inflation is as a result of government manipulations while bitcoin is a decentralized network which means there's no evidence of any manipulations, furthermore, when you invested in bitcoin and hold, the worth value of your investment increases with time while if with fiat it decrease because of inflation.

Charles-Tim

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Quote from: Kakmakr on August 23, 2023, 12:44:10 AM

What strategy do you use to beat inflation with your Bitcoin investment?

I do not know if this will continue, but there are bad years for bitcoin and there are good years. After halving, the first two years are years to make money from bitcoin, the following year is not good, while the last year to halving is good but not that good. During the third year after halving after bitcoin as fallen significantly, you can buy and hold it or start DCA.

Another thing is that if you are not selling for a very long time, you can buy and hold. Even if the price fall, a year is coming that you will gain. In long term, bitcoin is a store of value. If you did not sell but see losses as unrealized, you will later be happy after bitcoin got to the price you bought it and increase above the price.

Poker Player

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Quote from: Kakmakr on August 23, 2023, 12:44:10 AM

Every year that you are not selling any bitcoins (as a commodity) ...the inflation that you have to beat with this investment... accumulates.

Example : Year 1 = 10% / Year 2 = 20% / Year 3 = 30% .......and so on. You are also not gaining any interest on any of those coins... so they are dormant during the hoarding period. (When you eventually sell them, you have to divide the profit into the years that you hoarded it to see if you beat inflation)

What strategy do you use to beat inflation with your Bitcoin investment?

I think you make it too complicated. Taking out volatility, i.e. for example years when inflation is 5% and the price of bitcoin drops by 50%, if we look at the long term, as long as you hold your bitcoin for at least one cycle, you will be beating inflation. Whether you make profits by spending your bitcoin or exchanging it for fiat or not, it doesn't matter. If you still hold it without selling or spending it, you have an asset whose purchasing power has more than beaten inflation for the period you have held it.

Sim_card

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Bitcoin is a store of value and no matter how inflation rises the assets in bitcoin will be overcome inflation. I prefer hodling my bitcoin till the bull run for every circle so that I can sell and have profit,that is when the price of bitcoin during the bull run has reached my target selling price. And if during the bull run,bitcoin didn't reach my target selling price,I will keep hodli till the next bull run. I believe with this method one will be able to beat inflation with his investment. While hodli one still needs to use DCA method when necessary to take advantage of the market.

Zaguru12

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Quote from: Bureau on August 23, 2023, 01:10:32 AM

Taking periodic profits will always lock on the gain and might outpace inflation. I would say take an average of 5 to 10 years than 4 years. Major gains in Bitcoin have been realized in those periods if you check the history. There are many here who believe in indefinite hold and by doing that they are missing opportunities that Bitcoin is giving them. If I had a few stashes of Bitcoin, I would have booked some profit when Bitcoin last hit an ATH.

If you look at bitcoin prices, there is no certainty that it will be at a price good enough for sale during does period, Although the market is always pumped or at bull whenever an halving period occurs. But due to some economic factors this price falls back down again. Imagine bitcoin at the a price of $69k in 2021 and then falling back to close $15k one year later (late 2022), now imagine if you had set you have set your taking profit time to that year, you will have taken a profit but not as high as you could have.

So in my opinion it will be better to set taking profits target on price rather than year. For example put it that you will take half profit after the price might have done something like 3x your initial capital invested. This way you can at least take all or some of the profit and then accumulate more when the price comes down again.

ranochigo

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Bitcoin is an inflationary currency, and it is always going to be a inflationary asset if you consider Bitcoin alone up until mining stops. In theory, assuming ceteris paribus, if you peg Bitcoin to a fiat which has a higher inflation, you are going to have Bitcoin always appreciating against fiat; fiat becomes less valuable and Bitcoin becomes more valuable.

However, that is contingent on the fact that Bitcoin is not currently overpriced. Based on recent and historical price fluctuation, Bitcoin is overpriced at most of the point in time. Hence, I'm not very much confident on Bitcoin always outperforming inflation or performing better than other investment vehicles for that matter.

ImThour

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Bitcoin Bottom was at $15.4k

I mean it's a personal choice on how long someone wants to wait. I personally wanna see a target of $170k or something, as I made a post earlier. At that point, I will surely be happy to sell it for some profit and keep cash and enjoy some of it with my family and friends. Selling all your bought Bitcoins at price as of today is being a fool. And when there occurs a bear market, you simply buy again for cheap. And you can always keep working on your DCA Strategy.

Stella Mese

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Investing in BTC, of course, requires unlimited patience, and of course you have to use idle money to make purchases on BTC, and of course the DCA system that must be used when buying BTC, but to be honest, I personally also can't wait to be in the bull market quickly. and want to enjoy the benefits but of course we have to be patient and fight and of course to achieve success most of us have to be strong in being patient.

Silberman

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Quote from: Kakmakr on August 23, 2023, 12:44:10 AM

So I was thinking....

A lot of people are hoarding their bitcoins and waiting for a spike in the price, so that they can sell for a huge profit. Let's say for argument sake that real inflation is 10% per year.... and you are not selling any coins. (I say "real" inflation ...because we know the inflation provided by governments are manipulated... and much lower than the actual inflation or living cost)

Every year that you are not selling any bitcoins (as a commodity) ...the inflation that you have to beat with this investment... accumulates.

Example : Year 1 = 10% / Year 2 = 20% / Year 3 = 30% .......and so on. You are also not gaining any interest on any of those coins... so they are dormant during the hoarding period. (When you eventually sell them, you have to divide the profit into the years that you hoarded it to see if you beat inflation)

What strategy do you use to beat inflation with your Bitcoin investment? (I am saying investment... because a lot of people use Bitcoin as a commodity and not as a currency)

How long are you willing to wait, before Bitcoin are not an inflation beating investment anymore?

Right now there is no need to employ any fancy strategies, as long as you can buy bitcoin when its price is far away from its ATH then you should make profits on the upcoming years even with a high inflation playing against you, and even if someone bought at the ATH they could still make money by just holding, as an inflation of 10% which is compounded each year needs for that person to sell for 101k to suffer no loss, and such a price should be reachable during the next ATH, and if they employ a DCA strategy then their profits should be even higher.

Bureau

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Quote from: Despairo on August 23, 2023, 12:52:09 AM

Every four years seems to be the best way if you want to sell at the highest, don't sell your coins every year because Bitcoin isn't in bull run season.

For me, I have not yet sell my coins. I only sell small amount in order to buy foods, pay bills, household, electricity etc. The rest of my coins, I continue to hold until I don't know when I sell because I'm not really focus to increase my coins by selling my coins, I'm focus to develop my skill to get paid higher and continue DCA-ing.

Taking periodic profits will always lock on the gain and might outpace inflation. I would say take an average of 5 to 10 years than 4 years. Major gains in Bitcoin have been realized in those periods if you check the history. There are many here who believe in indefinite hold and by doing that they are missing opportunities that Bitcoin is giving them. If I had a few stashes of Bitcoin, I would have booked some profit when Bitcoin last hit an ATH.

Faisal2202

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I think in the context of inflation Bitcoin at least beat Fiat and we should not compare it. Even though you have started this topic then I would love to add some factors which make BTC a deflationary one for the longer period of time.

1. Limited supply of Bitcoin makes it more scarce then any fiat. There is only 21 million BTC while if we talk about fiat the numbers are increasing day by day.
2. Bitcoin is definitely a Deflationary coin because if we see at an average rate in every year price of BTC outperform Inflation. Means let's say you have $100 in your holding back from 1 January 2013. Will that $100 be having the same value as of today $100 but If you have invested that dollars in BTC then the value of your $100 will be 7.41BTC*current price. You do the calculation.
3. Point being made in the point 2 is until the price of BTC is outperforming the inflation rate till then. And how long that be. Well till 2140 year BTC will outperform Inflation because that's the last year when there will be no mining as BTC will be mined totally and if the downfall will start then it might start from there.

I am not a financial dude who knows or making the downfall assumption based on some facts but on the bases of mere knowledge I have.

sesterceshop

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This is why I DCA. It minimizes the risk of making a single large purchase at a peak price. I also invest in some DeFi platforms that offer yield on my Bitcoin to help offset inflation. And the duration you're willing to wait will depend on personal risk tolerance, the market trends, and economic conditions. I'll just HODL until I reach my target price.

Despairo

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Every four years seems to be the best way if you want to sell at the highest, don't sell your coins every year because Bitcoin isn't in bull run season.

For me, I have not yet sell my coins. I only sell small amount in order to buy foods, pay bills, household, electricity etc. The rest of my coins, I continue to hold until I don't know when I sell because I'm not really focus to increase my coins by selling my coins, I'm focus to develop my skill to get paid higher and continue DCA-ing.

Kakmakr

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So I was thinking....

A lot of people are hoarding their bitcoins and waiting for a spike in the price, so that they can sell for a huge profit. Let's say for argument sake that real inflation is 10% per year.... and you are not selling any coins. (I say "real" inflation ...because we know the inflation provided by governments are manipulated... and much lower than the actual inflation or living cost)

Every year that you are not selling any bitcoins (as a commodity) ...the inflation that you have to beat with this investment... accumulates.

Example : Year 1 = 10% / Year 2 = 20% / Year 3 = 30% .......and so on. You are also not gaining any interest on any of those coins... so they are dormant during the hoarding period. (When you eventually sell them, you have to divide the profit into the years that you hoarded it to see if you beat inflation)

What strategy do you use to beat inflation with your Bitcoin investment? (I am saying investment... because a lot of people use Bitcoin as a commodity and not as a currency)

How long are you willing to wait, before Bitcoin are not an inflation beating investment anymore?

Topic: How long can Bitcoin out perform inflation in the long run? (Read 382 times)