How much would you pay? | Bitcointalksearch.org

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: jetmine on November 03, 2011, 02:20:23 PM

I'm interested in this (rent for slightly below market value), and I don't feel stupid. Generating BTC is one thing, and turning BTC into revenue with flawless papertrail backing is another. Why not pay for service? I for example, don't have time to convert BTC myself and whatever I could save now I would pay it twice after the next tax inspection (in fines). If that's a money tree for you, great! Live and let live, that's how business works.

What? How would you get fined for selling your own coins? As opposed to renting your hardware?

jetmine

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Quote from: Dan The Man on October 31, 2011, 09:12:43 AM

That's not the point. The point is that the renter has access to the equipment. Either they are renting it out below value or above value. If they rent it for below value, then the rentee just turns the hashes into BTC and then into USD at the open rate. Money tree!

I'm interested in this (rent for slightly below market value), and I don't feel stupid. Generating BTC is one thing, and turning BTC into revenue with flawless papertrail backing is another. Why not pay for service? I for example, don't have time to convert BTC myself and whatever I could save now I would pay it twice after the next tax inspection (in fines). If that's a money tree for you, great! Live and let live, that's how business works.

molecular

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on October 31, 2011, 11:01:25 AM

Options and short posistions can be used to hedge for far less than the massive loss the rentee took.

Sure Exxon could "reduce their risk" by selling all their oil for next century at $50 per barrel but you don't see them doing that. If a company wants to hedge they will use financial transactions to hedge without handing huge portion of their profit to someone else for the "service" of reducing their risk.

Great deal for you while it lasts though. Anyone willing to give significant chunk of their profit to "reduce risk" likely shouldn't be mining in the first place.

One could also buy shares of mining companies like "JLP-BMD, MergedMining, FPGA.contract" on glbse.com

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Options and short posistions can be used to hedge for far less than the massive loss the rentee took.

Sure Exxon could "reduce their risk" by selling all their oil for next century at $50 per barrel but you don't see them doing that. If a company wants to hedge they will use financial transactions to hedge without handing huge portion of their profit to someone else for the "service" of reducing their risk.

Great deal for you while it lasts though. Anyone willing to give significant chunk of their profit to "reduce risk" likely shouldn't be mining in the first place.

payb.tc

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on October 31, 2011, 10:52:07 AM

Quote from: payb.tc on October 31, 2011, 10:34:22 AM

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on October 31, 2011, 09:36:43 AM

Your missing the point. Even if the person renting rigs was using stolen hardware and free power (hence cost is $0.00) they "value" of the rental is the amount of Bitcoins obtained.

If the rentee sells it for < market value of Bitcoins generated the rentee is losing money over just running the rigs themselves and selling the coins.
If the rentee sells it for > market value of Bitcoins generated the renter is losing money over just buying the coins on the market.

The cost of production is immaterial. If your cost to produce 1 BTC was $0.01 would you sell it on the exchange for $0.02? Or would you sell it for the max you could sell it for?

Renting hashes is a zero sum game. Either the price is too high and renter is losing or the price is too low and rentee is losing.

it's a completely different argument if you're thinking in fiat.

i was talking purely btc in/out.

eg. i rented 7 days for 32 btc and got back 35 btc, then i rented 30 days for 150 btc and got back 160 btc. win/win because the rentee reduces risk and gets upfront payment. and i don't have to worry about hardware, setup, mining expertise.

but that's beyond pointless.

a bit like arguing with some of the people on this forum.

No it is the same argument. You won, the rentee lost. It is a zero sum game. You were smart enough to realize the contract was undervalued. If the contract had been 40 BTC for 7 days and you estimated you would get 35 then you likely would have passed. Had you taken it the rentee would have won and you would have lost.

The rentee sold you 195 BTC for 182 BTC. Good for you, not so good for him. Not much different than my dollar store (selling dollar bills for $0.90) analogy.

the rentee reduced risk, got an upfront payment.

but then, i already typed that.

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: payb.tc on October 31, 2011, 10:34:22 AM

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on October 31, 2011, 09:36:43 AM

Your missing the point. Even if the person renting rigs was using stolen hardware and free power (hence cost is $0.00) they "value" of the rental is the amount of Bitcoins obtained.

If the rentee sells it for < market value of Bitcoins generated the rentee is losing money over just running the rigs themselves and selling the coins.
If the rentee sells it for > market value of Bitcoins generated the renter is losing money over just buying the coins on the market.

The cost of production is immaterial. If your cost to produce 1 BTC was $0.01 would you sell it on the exchange for $0.02? Or would you sell it for the max you could sell it for?

Renting hashes is a zero sum game. Either the price is too high and renter is losing or the price is too low and rentee is losing.

it's a completely different argument if you're thinking in fiat.

i was talking purely btc in/out.

eg. i rented 7 days for 32 btc and got back 35 btc, then i rented 30 days for 150 btc and got back 160 btc. win/win because the rentee reduces risk and gets upfront payment. and i don't have to worry about hardware, setup, mining expertise.

but that's beyond pointless.

a bit like arguing with some of the people on this forum.

No it is the same argument. You won, the rentee lost. It is a zero sum game. You were smart enough to realize the contract was undervalued. If the contract had been 40 BTC for 7 days and you estimated you would get 35 then you likely would have passed. Had you taken it the rentee would have won and you would have lost.

The rentee sold you 195 BTC for 182 BTC. Good for you, not so good for him. Not much different than my dollar store (selling dollar bills for $0.90) analogy.

payb.tc

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on October 31, 2011, 09:36:43 AM

Your missing the point. Even if the person renting rigs was using stolen hardware and free power (hence cost is $0.00) they "value" of the rental is the amount of Bitcoins obtained.

If the rentee sells it for < market value of Bitcoins generated the rentee is losing money over just running the rigs themselves and selling the coins.
If the rentee sells it for > market value of Bitcoins generated the renter is losing money over just buying the coins on the market.

The cost of production is immaterial. If your cost to produce 1 BTC was $0.01 would you sell it on the exchange for $0.02? Or would you sell it for the max you could sell it for?

Renting hashes is a zero sum game. Either the price is too high and renter is losing or the price is too low and rentee is losing.

it's a completely different argument if you're thinking in fiat.

i was talking purely btc in/out.

eg. i rented 7 days for 32 btc and got back 35 btc, then i rented 30 days for 150 btc and got back 160 btc. win/win because the rentee reduces risk and gets upfront payment. and i don't have to worry about hardware, setup, mining expertise.

but that's beyond pointless.

a bit like arguing with some of the people on this forum.

DeathAndTaxes

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Activity: 1218

Merit: 1079

Gerald Davis

Quote from: molecular on October 31, 2011, 09:05:38 AM

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on October 31, 2011, 08:55:35 AM

Renting hashing power could be taken either way

As in it is beyond pointless to rent hashing power to others or it is beyond pointless to rent hashing offered by others.

Technically I agree. It is a zero sum game.
Either the renter is a loser or the rentee is the loser.

The renting rig business isn't viable it just exists because Bitcoin is an immature business.

It would be like me having a dollar bill store.
If I sell dollar bills for $1.10 each then the buyer is losing.
If I sell dollars bills for $0.90 each then the seller (me) is losing.

This is why we tend not to see dollar bill stores.

Not everyone has access to cheap power.

Your missing the point. Even if the person renting rigs was using stolen hardware and free power (hence cost is $0.00) they "value" of the rental is the amount of Bitcoins obtained.

If the rentee sells it for < market value of Bitcoins generated the rentee is losing money over just running the rigs themselves and selling the coins.
If the rentee sells it for > market value of Bitcoins generated the renter is losing money over just buying the coins on the market.

The cost of production is immaterial. If your cost to produce 1 BTC was $0.01 would you sell it on the exchange for $0.02? Or would you sell it for the max you could sell it for?

Renting hashes is a zero sum game. Either the price is too high and renter is losing or the price is too low and rentee is losing.

Dan The Man

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Quote from: molecular on October 31, 2011, 09:05:38 AM

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on October 31, 2011, 08:55:35 AM

Renting hashing power could be taken either way

As in it is beyond pointless to rent hashing power to others or it is beyond pointless to rent hashing offered by others.

Technically I agree. It is a zero sum game.
Either the renter is a loser or the rentee is the loser.

The renting rig business isn't viable it just exists because Bitcoin is an immature business.

It would be like me having a dollar bill store.
If I sell dollar bills for $1.10 each then the buyer is losing.
If I sell dollars bills for $0.90 each then the seller (me) is losing.

This is why we tend not to see dollar bill stores.

Not everyone has access to cheap power.

That's not the point. The point is that the renter has access to the equipment. Either they are renting it out below value or above value. If they rent it for below value, then the rentee just turns the hashes into BTC and then into USD at the open rate. Money tree! If they are renting above value, then the rentee is an idiot who is paying more than he could buy BTC for on the open market.

molecular

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Activity: 2772

Merit: 1019

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on October 31, 2011, 08:55:35 AM

Renting hashing power could be taken either way

As in it is beyond pointless to rent hashing power to others or it is beyond pointless to rent hashing offered by others.

Technically I agree. It is a zero sum game.
Either the renter is a loser or the rentee is the loser.

The renting rig business isn't viable it just exists because Bitcoin is an immature business.

It would be like me having a dollar bill store.
If I sell dollar bills for $1.10 each then the buyer is losing.
If I sell dollars bills for $0.90 each then the seller (me) is losing.

This is why we tend not to see dollar bill stores.

Not everyone has access to cheap power.

DeathAndTaxes

donator

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1079

Gerald Davis

Renting hashing power could be taken either way

As in it is beyond pointless to rent hashing power to others or it is beyond pointless to rent hashing offered by others.

Technically I agree. It is a zero sum game.
Either the renter is a loser or the rentee is the loser.

The renting rig business isn't viable it just exists because Bitcoin is an immature business.

It would be like me having a dollar bill store.
If I sell dollar bills for $1.10 each then the buyer is losing.
If I sell dollars bills for $0.90 each then the seller (me) is losing.

This is why we tend not to see dollar bill stores.

payb.tc

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Activity: 812

Merit: 1000

Quote from: ElectricMucus on October 31, 2011, 07:58:47 AM

Quote from: payb.tc on October 31, 2011, 07:46:43 AM

Quote from: ElectricMucus on October 31, 2011, 07:22:48 AM

Renting Hashing power is beyond pointless.

i made a decent return renting hashing power from yochdog's BitCorp.

That may be so. People make money on lots of things.
You can pay someone to solve captchas for you, and spam can be quite profitable too. Probably even more profitable.

yeah but on the other hand making money on profitable endeavors is beyond pointless.

ElectricMucus

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Marketing manager - GO MP

Quote from: payb.tc on October 31, 2011, 07:46:43 AM

Quote from: ElectricMucus on October 31, 2011, 07:22:48 AM

Renting Hashing power is beyond pointless.

i made a decent return renting hashing power from yochdog's BitCorp.

That may be so. People make money on lots of things.
You can pay someone to solve captchas for you, and spam can be quite profitable too. Probably even more profitable.

payb.tc

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 1000

Quote from: ElectricMucus on October 31, 2011, 07:22:48 AM

Renting Hashing power is beyond pointless.

i made a decent return renting hashing power from yochdog's BitCorp.

ElectricMucus

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Marketing manager - GO MP

Renting Hashing power is beyond pointless.

molecular

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there are some mining corporations on glbse.com: MergedMining, FPGA.Contract, JLP-BMD.

You could check their shares market value, figure out their hashrates and determine an average price per GH/s that way. I don't know how that would compare to other, more direct ways of calculating this based on mining income and running cost.

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

It is continually changing every second due to market price and difficulty however the current spot value of hashing power is

The daily revenue in USD for 1 GH/s of hashing power is:
(Daily price in USD) = (USD per BTC) * 1005828.381 / (current difficulty)

The constant "1005828.381" comes from reducing known conversions (seconds per day, BTC per block, hashes per block).

pirateat40

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"Yes I am a pirate, 200 years too late."

Quote from: repentance on October 30, 2011, 04:52:28 PM

Yea, I saw those, I'm looking for a current market price and by GH per day.

repentance

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Quote from: pirateat40 on October 30, 2011, 04:48:14 PM

If there was a way to buy hashing power, on the spot and for as long as you prepaid for, how much would you pay per Gh per day?

pirateat40

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"Yes I am a pirate, 200 years too late."

If there was a way to buy hashing power, on the spot and for as long as you prepaid for, how much would you pay per Gh per day?

Topic: How much would you pay? (Read 1932 times)