Topic: How to avoid huge cryptocurrency disappointment (Read 577 times)

After all, money is the biggest factor in crypto that everyone gets depressed. So just invest only a portion of your life's savings so that if everything ends negatively, you will never be too much affected. And also, don't set high expectations in crypto. Yes, a lot of people have been reaping good profits here, but not everyone are given the chances to do great in crypto. Some are just brave enough not to give up even if they have endure a lot of losses already.

I find this write up very useful and informative.

I think most people venture into cryptocurrency without anticipating that there's always a bear season. They get carried away with the bull run that they fail to save for the raining days, investing all their profits without saving some in stable coins.
I am speaking from personal experience.
It is important that while you are trading, always take out profit, because you never know what might happen the next second.

It's just bad guys, I never even took advantage of newbies joining crypto. I try to answer what he needs and give advice to the best of my ability. I never suggest or direct a beginner's opinion. I know in the end if I give a lead to my profit it will make crypto worse. It had a huge impact on developments in my country. It could be that it has an effect on the government so that crypto regulation is even more difficult. I'm sure a lot of people do that, but they don't think about the future of crypto.

kind of hard to avoid huge cryptocurrency disappointment with this Bitcoin price

Most beginners are brain washed by the kind of cryptocurrency video they watch on social media,  most cryptocurrency advisers don't tell beginners the other side of cryptocurrency,  they only emphasize on only one aspect of cryptocurrency which is the aspect of making profit.

The talk more about gaining profits for their own personal interest, words that are more profit attracts beginners to subscribe to their channels. Beginners going through video like that gets the mentality of seeing cryptocurrency as making profit while they have no idea about volatility and risk that is in cryptocurrency.

Disappointment comes only if your expectations have been greatly exaggerated. If a beginner comes to the cryptocurrency market with the sole purpose of quickly increasing his money without spending special efforts, then it is safe to say that he will lose his money and leave this market completely disappointed.

The influence of social media is indeed very large, currently the information on social media will quickly spread. Like some ads how to invest easily and get a lot of profit. Even though these types of investments are fake investments, binary options and the like which will make them lose more. Quick gains can be made in crypto, but there will also be quick losses. Nothing is easy, all require effort and effort, make good investments or trades, use management that is suitable for your finances and must remain disciplined.

All the points highlighted by you were good and helpful especially in times like this when lots of people began to say wrong things about bitcoin itself, you understand the real idea behind bitcoin as an investment asset and as currency for exchange, you as well got the understanding of the possible risk that could be associated when doing it wrong way by investing on other cryptocurrencies or by trading or investing on a wrong timing, many have fall a victim of those points mentioned by you but could have made them avoidable if they had known it all before time.

I will add this treat crypto as an adventure or investment not a daily business. Learn to invest on long term goal and avoid short term projects if possible or know when to pull out from short term projects. Little profit should mean so much so as to cut off greed and anxiety. Don't invest because others are investing always invest because your own research gave you the go ahead.

Don't expect also a huge profit if your investment is only small. There are some people that I know who invest on crypto that have plenty of 0 then dream to reach a certain price that will make them millionaire. They don't realize it has a very huge supply making their dreams impossible. I know that dogecoin has a lot of supply and pumped a lot but that is because of Elon Musk's hype. Not all coins will be like that so we should not put our expectation high when investing into cryptocurrencies.

That is very common and these newcomers never think about the risk of losing but rather go straight about earning more. It was the fact that we need to inject into their mind and to going to believe easily what it spread online, on Youtube (especially trading), etc. We can't say it was a lying statement but we have to say that "there is no easy money in crypto", "quick profit", as even old-timers will even say it was hard, how much more for beginners that have no experience and market knowledge? This is the reason why many people got fooled and scam easily, and that was because the influence of these social media platforms.

As a basic rule, never invest what you can't afford to lose. Even if there are huge potentials for cryptocurrency to give you the best profits, the fact that the market is so unpredictable and you can't expect the price to stay always on top, so always anticipate that losses are still very possible. Separate your hard earned money from your investment funds, and you will never be totally affected and get disappointed once the market becomes unstable and leave your investments not making profits.

Do not be too greedy, impatient, or overleveraged as this could have you wiped out like Mortimer and Randolph from Trading Places.  Gain as much knowledge as you can and DYOR- don't just solely rely on the words and input of others.  Be on heighten alert for scams/rug pulls- mainly but not only watch for unrealistics, unsustainability, too good to be true, and questionable coin distributions.

Unfortunately not everyone is new to understand what you wrote. Maybe even many people who have not read it outside this forum. They only focus on quick profits without paying attention and doing risk management to avoid losses. The best thing is to forget and immediately get up fighting. Struggle to restore what has been lost with improvements in asset management. In addition you also have to be patient, you need to train mentally and emotionally because it is an important step and the most difficult to do.

Cryptocurrency trading just like every other businesses just prepare your mind for any circumstance that may be. In all my involvement in cryto trading I don't joke with number 1 and 2 listed and am sure that what any wise business man shouldn't overlook.

Number 1 and 2 are something that we must avoid before investing in cryptocurrency because number 1 will be your way out of the financial problem if you don't have money to survive. While number 2 is another thing, you must avoid as borrowing money can be your problem to repay the money, especially if you don't have an income to give back the money.

Number 3 explains you need to have money for your daily life and buy your daily needs so you don't use all of your money to invest in crypto. The other important thing is you need to have a plan for investing in crypto and determine how much money you want to use to invest in crypto.

This one is often associated with greed. No genuine or astute investor will want to indulge in something like that. It's a mere hyip (high yield investment programme). Hyips often end in premium tears so to say but ignorant people like the risk in it in finding a shortcut to quick riches. A few years ago I talked to a lady about investment in Bitcoin and she asked me if she could draw profit from it within a month of her investment. I told her that would depend on the market and had nothing to do with me finding a ROI for her. She said she wanted something that would guarantee her a certain ROI. I bluntly told her she was preparing herself for scam. This set of people see anyone taking it slowly as stupid until they're scammed or burnt. They learn the hard way.

Well, this isn't holistic. There are crypto/forex traders who survive only on trading. Some would later diversify into other businesses from their gains in trading while others will keep it only on trading. There's no greater joy than making a living from the comfort of one's home. That's what trading affords. The bottom line is to have a handle on trading and every other thing falls into place.

It's best not to and never lending money to invest in cryptocurrency, even if it's bitcoin. Bitcoin probably won't make us lose money in the event that we can hold it in the long term, in the short run, bitcoin's volatility can cost us money so never invest borrowed funds. Investments should only be made when we can afford to invest and can live a normal life when we lose them.

The main job would be a good crutch for a side job like in cryptocurrency. Because if the crutch is lost and happens as you describe, then there is no longer a definite source of income for you. You also need to learn how to make decisions when the market is bullish and you are already making a profit. Don't wait until it drops again which of course will make you regret it.

Another vital way to prevent this disappointment is avoiding online investment who promises to double or triple your investment after a given period of time, because I know of a friend who got scammed of over $1000 meant for his traditional marriage, and this was how it all happened. He came across this Google ads advertising a website who promises to double investment in 48hours, and ignorantly he investment the whole money, of which 48hours passed and he got no refund till date. And that was how the traditional marriage never hold again, he attempted committing suicide, but luckily he was rescue and survived.
So in general what am trying to say is don't invest in a site who promises to double investment in 24hours. They are scam

True. Relying all you have to crypto will be not be good for you when the market turn down. I ha e alsolearned this the hardway back in the first time I experinced bull market. I thought it would never end that my money will continue to grow while I sleep. Months pass I'm already lossing thousands which should have been profit if I just sell.

Glad that I didn't give up my freelance job or I'd be scrumbling to sell the coins I intend to hold for long term to fund myself.

To add to what has already been said. Kindly avoid engaging with users who make comments like this on YouTube

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There are so many of them that follow this same pattern. Just avoid them like a plague to spare yourself the heartbreak and disappointment.

This is a critical point for anyone investing in cryptocurrency; having a separate source of income and not relying solely on your crypto earnings is the best option because there is no guarantee that the market will continue to move in your favor. Maintain a separate work space for cryptocurrency to avoid dipshit situations when the market falls.

Sorry mate just a hard way to learn, $12k ain't a small amount to loose. Imagine s newbie having to loose such at an early stage it might be devastating and frustrating. That's why new enthusiasts like me need to read up on this kinda flaws so we could minimise our chance of disappointment or moreover safeguarding ourselves from scammers/hackers. I will also need to read up on the Ledger Nano S. I quite don't have any idea on it.

What I noticed about some humans is that taking other people advice seems to be too difficult for them. They learn quick from their own personal experience , that is why no matter advice like this are giving to beginners they would not listen,  they would want to know if truly greed is real in cryptocurrency.

That is certainly different from how we respond to that advice. Many had neglected to follow and so they regret it later.
That greediness makes someone stressed and also the reason why haven't look any good to what the other says as their emotions influencing their mind.

Just like what I did before,
 * I lend some money to invest but it loses because I invested in scam projects
 * I do trading but I lose my capital because I don't have any idea how to do this

Regrets and disappointments literally come because we are not well-prepared and we don't know what we are doing.

I am no stranger when it comes to disappointments in my life. Not only that I am disappointed because of the losses that I have in the past because of greediness, but also not thinking twice on what I have been doing just to end up my mind being brainwashed by the hacker and drained my 3 wallets for a total of more than $12,000 due to the malware I have accidentally engaged with. I should have moved all of them to my Ledger Nano S earlier so that even if I clicked that malware my assets won’t get drained. But it is what it is, just another hard lesson learned and move on to become better in making decisions not just in crypto, but in all walks of life.

Always have fiat on hand. Do not put all your hard earned money into crypto because if that fails, you will be totally rekt. As much as possible, learn to diversify your investments into crypto, bonds, stocks or even in gold investments and never invest what you can't afford to lose. That way, you may lose from crypto, but made profits from other investments, or vice versa.

Thanks for sharing

These are actually very common advice and we have all heard and understood about these many times because many people also have announced about these.
But in fact, many people still don't care about this, only follow their greed and hype, not listening to the kind advice. Whatever we say and however we try to advise and wake up people with this reality, in fact, they may not want to listen to us because what their focus is getting and earning much much much money instantly without considering the risks that they may take. And after these all downtrend, they will panic and regret of the same mistakes, always.

It's not what I mean, a person that has an obligation on his family can't go all in with his investments anymore because there's a bigger part and allocation to the needs of the family since you're already a provider although that doesn't stop him for being a saver and an investor. But if someone is single, he can go all in and all out with his crypto investments and whether he's winning or losing, it's just him that's going to be problematic if the outcome turns out to be negative and those losses can be turned into lessons and learnings while he's still at a young age.

It's your money anyway. How we manage our life savings also depends on what we "want" and what we "need". If I was like a PC Building enthusiast which I am for real, I would not just invest it all in crypto considering how expensive are PC parts here in my country. I would invest some part of it to crypto, but not all of it.
I would love to do my hobby after all and not just 100% go in-depth with crypto.

The system or market has been designed in such a way that, you can have a go at it without encountering some huge lose or a drastical reduction of your crypto portfolio. All that Resides in your best ability because, you can never be accurate on your analysis of the market but if your good enough, you can get some accurate insight to it and you work your coins through wallets, exchanges and swaps to Stable coins as the need applies. It's easier said than done but for sure, it can over ride every other step to "no regrets" especially when you invest on coins that are actually tradable.

Yeah, that's some means to an analysis but at times, it does fails but, you've still got to try and stay on track. Let it be that you invest in some project that you found interesting and make the mistakes while correcting yourself along the line so, you get to learn.

Waiting till your married before starting to have savings is like waiting for a train to start moving then you start running after it to get a lift.

Wether single or married savings is something quintessential for every human being cause hard times are unpredictable.

I do not recommend borrowing money to buy/trade the coins as much as if a novice will be successful. This is because the novice would be so excited to get to his trading target, that it can lead him to act upon illusory returns, which can cause a lot of damage. I have witnessed such cases where inexperienced traders lose their entire investment on the first day. The naive one even forget his greed and shorts were not profitable. This was just my own experience and my own take on the matter. For beginners I can only recommend if you have your own funds to invest then go for it. If you have limited funds and therefore cannot invest your money then buy bitcoin which is cheap right now and can give you good returns in the long run.

If I am single, I'd probably put my life savings into crypto and I've got my own reason for doing that. First, I'm aware of its volatility and I've experienced the highs and lows of it. Since I am single, I'll have no problems even if my portfolio goes low for bitcoin because I know that it will eventually recover. Again, this is only if I'm single but as time passes and I get to have my own family, I'll diversify it and will need to have savings for cash and as well as investments for real estate properties.

Actually it depends on the strategy you choose. Its not bad to takea loan but putting it on a right basket. Rich people becoming more rich when they are using banks or firms money and making it double or triple using that money leaving the debt getting paid and the rest is profit.

If you follow or check Robert Kiyosaki videos or learning he said that he got rich by borrowimg money and put that into investment. Thats definitely a testinomy or outlier that its not always be the same.

Crypto comes with alot of goodies ,investing in it comes with it huge advantage while this advantage are huge, there are also some days for its disadvantage ,it is always advisable to study the market and make research to know when to withdraw and when to invest ,Do not invest all your money on crypto, invest what you can easily afford or risk, have other means of making money apart from crypto, invest wisely to avoid disappointment ,dont be too greedy.

How can one invest in cryptocurrency?
What common mistakes do people make when investing in cryptocurrency?
Cryptocurrency is a lucrative investment, no doubt. Prior to making any investment, it is highly recommended to assess the risks and any important information associated with it and invest only if you can handle the risks. For starters, Bitcoin isn’t the only cryptocurrency out there, educate yourself with the basics of cryptocurrency and the blockchain technology that powers it.

Identify your goals, whether you want to trade crypto for a short term or long term, this is dependent on the time you can invest and the knowledge that you’ve acquired. You cannot judge a cryptocurrency by its cover, attractive visuals, promising returns do not guarantee anything. This is popularly termed the “bling bling syndrome”, as always read between the lines, check if the background of the company is trustworthy and legit. Hype buying or panic selling is another common mistake by investors, who are usually just starting out, understand how the crypto market functions and pick the right time to invest in a cryptocurrency, hype does not define anything. Market movements and emotions are key factors that shape a crypto investor, the fear of failure results in not winning enough, make an objective or technical analysis instead. Set aside any form of greed, this will not only make your mind hazy, but will most likely lead to terrible and avoidable decisions.

Before signing up on any platform as an investor, compare the best available options, do not pay more than what you are required to pay. The last common mistake we would like to point out is that many end up pouring their savings into one cryptocurrency or one type of investment, this is a big NO, a diverse investment portfolio is a must, when you start this adventurous and hilly journey.

If you are hesitant to start a crypto investment, you can always find safer alternatives on Bitbns such as our Fixed Income Plan (FIP) that guarantees a fixed rate of interest on your investment.

Do not borrow for trading is old ideology and ancient concept of people  do make or emphasised in every occasion, borrowing is nice and same time bad in all ramifications, but i have seen someone who borrowed money to trade and make it, and after making huge profit and he returns the money, every time people capitalized in losing accept of trading but they don't emphasis on making profit.

in every investment there will always be some disappointment though they are some avoidable ones if proper research are done. so one should be dispose for disappointment but know the ways to bounce back and continue with the information gain. don't be carried away by the hype, invest in bitcoin, ask for advice from trusted members who have been long in the crypto space, invest little in altcoin, know that market fall and rise

Taking loans for a very volatile and risky investment, i guess that is putting yourself in misery in the future. Crypto does not guarantee profits, as its also don't make a single person instantly rich. So taking loans is never really a good advice in the first place. However with bitcoin you'll never be in huge loss, but still always have the mindset to invest only on the amount you can afford to lose.

That's the most basic thing that an investor should always put in mind. If he can only invest on his extra money, then its less likely that he will get dommed in crypto or in any types of investments. And of course, if he starts to invest, make sure that you are not putting your money in the wrong coins, or the shitcoins. Invest in bitcoin first. That's more safer that any other coins to invest.

You are right concerning what you said about all investment shouldn't be taking to cryptocurrency, not even that alone. It will be also important to understand that it can be frustrating to invest all the savings and not having a better source of income.

On its surface, it looks like a solid advice, but the reality is different. Take the recent example, Terra Luna. It looked like a "good project" with a solid team, good potential, etc. etc. And yet it failed catastrophically. Why? Because altcoins in their core are unsustainable. They have zero real users. No one needs them in real world. 100% of their buyers are cryptobros who want to sell them at a higher price. This makes altcoins just a gambling device.

Well, as rightly said by you, everyone has their opinion. I was being very scared of borrowing money for investment until I read a book authored by the same man who wrote "The rich dad and the poor dad". After reading that book, I was moved to take the risk. There was actually a business opportunity that someone showed me, on doing my personal research, I saw that it was a workable business. I actually had the money to do the business, but to satisfy my curiosity, I borrowed to do the business. Well, if the business didn't do well I knew I could repay. But the business went well and I paid back what I borrowed with small interest and I was left with a huge profit. I was happy, I felt so smart at that point. It was then I decided that I would be doing investment with borrowed money. I am still working on myself before I will start.
Nothing is certain in trading, but a professional day trader who is sincere and not greedy will hardly blow his capital when there is a stop loss.

I believe there should be a different between trading with $10,000 with 1x leverage and trading with $100 with x100 leverage. The difference should be the volume of loss and the speed of loss.

Diversify as they say.

Don't put all of that investment into a single project unless that's bitcoin. We've seen how some of the projects that have been trusted very well by its community and then they've just betrayed them.

The 4th advice should be like that and it's true about knowing the project you're investing in. But, you'll still feel not enough with that and always be alert whenever a huge dump has happened.

Point number 1-3 is more to the management of funds.
Yes, exactly management of the fund is very important in investment. However, many people may not pay more attention to this. Many people are more interested to put their money into cryptocurrency investment by only thinking of earning huge profits. Moreover, they sometimes have made money from crypto investments, they will continue investing again and again.
Dividing money in several ways is also important. As you said that we are better to divide the money not only for crypto investment but also for real-life investment like gold or property. or if it is too hard, we must have also savings.
Many people are disappointed and shocked by the suddenly crashed market because commonly they are also investing all in one coin. This is also not recommended to all in.
And there is also one important fact in investment, never invest in cyrpto if we are only ready for the profits but not ready for the risk of losing.

I won't even make a loan to make an investment in Bitcoin even if I am comfortable already for 5 years holding Bitcoin. What more if in these shitcoins even if they can be pumped easily through hypes and shitshows?
I do not want to bury myself in debt, so I'll pass on those.

I wonder why one will go as far as lending money for an investment that is highly volatile and the crazy part is how the use this funds to invest in shit coin. Crypto investment  is not a job it's an investment and investments is never a get rich quick scheme. For ever as far as crypto investment is concerned Bitcoin remains the safest despite the fall

Everyone has their opinion of course, but I do not consider that to be an apt comparison. In start ups, owners ask for investments mostly to scale up the business, in this instant they have already set something in motion at this time which investors can appraise after listening to their pitch.
There are also instances when one can take a loan to start a business, this should also be placed based upon a thriving enterprise or learning an in demand skill, these are very different from borrowing money you do not have, to trade where the outcome is majorly out of your control regardless of your skill and experience.

"Professional" traders should not need to borrow money in order to trade, they could rather leverage.

I would say in general to avoid disappointments, don't expect too much from the market or rather lower your expectations and keep a moderate expectation about crypto. Don't get me wrong, but having a very high expectation about something puts you on a path already for disappointment.

Some due to some pre-existing notion that crypto is a get rich quick scheme, go ahead to borrow money to invest and trade crypto, or invest all their money and disappointment slaps them in the face when they discover that what they had in mind is not exactly so. Have or develop a good understanding of what you are about getting into, in this case crypto to avoid getting disappointed.

A bear market doesn't happen everyday. So while everybody must be aware that Bitcoin is volatile and one's Bitcoin portfolio could actually tank any time, a feeling of assurance is somehow developed while the price is doing good.

When Bitcoin is gaining more and more price value, people would somehow develop a feeling of complacency. Trust on Bitcoin's price grow higher. Many probably begin to think that everyday is a sunny day. People begin to be too optimistic that they begin to lose some ground and forget about the reality.

This is probably what happened when people began to look forward to $100,000 when Bitcoin made its ATH at $69,000. Nobody probably thought of $30,000 at that time. That was unimaginable. Volatility and unpredictability were forgotten. That was the beginning of an incoming disappointment. The expectation wasn't based on reality.

I think I saw a meme a while ago (it might have been a comment on a video) but it was something like "don't expect to become instantly rich if you're investing like a young person".

Putting your whole net worth into crypto at 18 is much different than putting it in at 40-60 - where you should already have value - and expecting to make high returns (not that I'd suggest putting that much in anyway at any age).


Additionally, don't feel like you have to keep holding your investment once its in profit. Taking the same stance and not keeping too much in crypto is also a safer option (moving a certain amount of funds to things like stocks or even commodities might make you less nervous about your crypto investments).

The most important thing for your journey in cryptocurrency market is

• Never spend more money than what you can't afford to lose.

Prepare for bad and worst things because your journey in cryptocurrency might not be smoothly and rosy. Lots of ups and downs, challenges, success and failure.

To me this is not an ideal recommendation. I see nothing wrong if a professional trader borrows money to trade. This is even recommended. If people can borrow money for start ups, I don't see any problems borrowing money to buy or trade a coin. Just apply your working strategy, money management and remove greed, you will be successful in as much as you know what you are doing.


Should buying of stable coins be called an investment? It may be called saving. Yea, keeping your coin in a less volatile/non volatile coin is likened to keeping your money in fiat. Though, fiat depreciates and yet, stable coins do as well
What you need to say about the type of coin is, invest in Bitcoin. If there is need for diversification, investment in known altcoins like Ethereum, BNB etc could be considered.

You may have missed this last altcoins/stablecoins shitshow, but don't be fooled that stablecoins are stable just because they're called that. As we have seen they can lose their value, and an even greater risk that comes with them is the fact that most can be frozen even if located in a non-custodial crypto wallet.

These small cryptocurrencies as you call them are nothing more than pump&dump schemes that operate on the principle of pre-mined coins that the owner dumps on the market after inflating the price of his coin - after making a profit, the whole thing repeats itself with another project.

Never compare Bitcoin to these other projects, because investing in Bitcoin is much more than making a profit (at least for those who understand why Bitcoin exists). Price is only a current reflection of the market, and I am not disappointed with the price, but with people whose negative actions negatively affect the price - in other words, why does someone consciously cut the branch on which he sits?

Reading and hearing of some cryptocurrency traders and investors wailing about the recent crash in the crypto market, some even leading to suicide. Here are my precautionary measures on how to avoid cryptocurrency disappointment.

As we all know cryptocurrency market is  very volatile as such crashes is common. So one has to be prepared for anything.

1. DON'T TAKE ALL YOUR LIFE INVESTMENT INTO CRYPTOCURRENCY; this would have been said numerous times but new crypto enthusiasts like myself can be gullible or naive to how some might invest $87k in cryptocurrency and generate $1M in space of just say 72 hours. As this looks promising so is the risk associated to it. Some of this big traders have risk assessment, they don't just throw all their money into cryptocurrency.

2. Do NOT BORROW/LEND MONEY TO INVEST OR TRADE; if you borrow money to buy a coin, once the market falls it might lead to you willing to sell at a lower price and end up not recovering your invested money which might lead to been in debt. Which is one serious issue crypto enthusiasts need to stay away from.

3. HAVE SEPARATE SOURCE OF LIVELIHOOD FOR EMERGENCY; some newbies actually take crypto Trading as the only means of survival, and when there is a market crash there is a lot of panic which might lead to suicide or people being homeless. As a cryptocurrency trader/investor one should have another means of making ends meet even if it small income. Atleast that could sustain any market crash which can also take some stress out of you.
You can start today by putting some funds out (can be monthly) to start up new business, if there's none currently.

4. KNOW THE TYPE OF COINS TO INVEST/TRADE IN; personally i don't encourage huge investment in unstable coins. Coins with long term potential are advisable. Smaller cryptocurrency actually bring huge gains in a short time frame but it's risk are huge than the stable coins. Although it is quite hard to dictate which coins can stay up for a very long time, the most common long term coin is the Bitcoin, which has the potential to recover after market crash. Some of the tips on how to identify a long term coin are;

A) the first thing is looking at the coin's management team and how reliable it is. Some experience traders suggest that any management team that is anonymous is a big no trading/investing coin.

B) what is the project purpose; one has to read through the project and see if the purpose of the project is worth investigating in and aslo check the road map as to how they are moving towards the ascribed purpose.

C) How active is the project community; any project that doesn't have a strong/active development community is a big red flag.

As it stands now we do not know when the market will come up again or maybe it is longtime down fall. But investors/traders need to find means of diversification to avoid disappointments that could be unbearable.

Looking forward to some advice from senior members of the forum on this thread